I think I'm coming around.

[Meldread]

In the last few weeks I've become very anti-Kerry for obvious reasons. I don't believe he is the best person to put up against Bush. I believe he sold out the values of the Democratic Party by voting for the Iraq War and the Patriot Act. I am angry at him for his dirty underhanded politicking against Dean. I am also angry against some Kerry supporters who've gone out of their way to trash Dean. (And in turn I've gone out of my way to return the fire.)

Although I think he is going to eventually fall into the category that Bill Clinton and Al Gore fell into, a category that isn't all that supportive but someone I can "live with". Basically that means I *MIGHT* decide to vote for him if he wins the nomination. (I haven't exactly decided.) However, I've completely ruled out any major support I'd give (donations, volunteering, or spreading the word) -- I simply don't believe in him and don't want my name associated with someone who was willing to send American youth to die for an illegal war based on a lie.

I'm also positive that I'm going to treat him like I did Al Gore and Bill Clinton -- I'm going to stick it to him when I disagree with him. One thing I will *NOT* stand for his supporting him for his IWR vote or his vote on the Patriot Act. I will ruthlessly attack him until I get an acceptable answer -- a straight answer -- that I feel is appropriate.

I'm still not ABB, I don't believe anyone should be ABB -- there are many people out there who are worse than Bush.

I want to make my contempt for Kerry VERY clear. I would have voted for Joe Lieberman had he won the nomination with no problem. Why? Because I respected Lieberman. He stood his ground and he didn't flip flop when it wasn't popular. This is something that I hold Kerry in a very deep contempt for -- I don't like liars. That is one of the fundamental reasons that I do not like Bush. That is one of the fundamental reasons that I *DO* like Howard Dean, because I feel that I can trust him more than the other candidates. I respect Joe Lieberman just as I respect Howard Dean. I have very little respect for John Kerry, and I believe that if Kerry wishes to win over my vote (and many others) he should begin working his butt off to start gaining respect. He should go after Bush before Bush goes after him -- he should launch and all out war. He should open the discussion on his Iraq War and Patriot Act Vote, and explain the reasons for his votes in detail and speak directly and candidly.

Those are just my thoughts and where I stand. There is a 40/60 chance that I might vote for Kerry if he gets the nomination. 40% chance that I will and 60% chance that I won't. I think some of that decision will also play out on these boards with some of the Kerry supporters -- can they stop the constant assault on the other candidates before they drive the wounds between the candidates even deeper? We'll find out.

[NNN0LHI]

1. "there are many people out there who are worse than Bush" Name one n/t

[lastknowngood]

3. Jeb Peral Rove Cheney Asscroft Dumbsfeld need I go

any further.

[NNN0LHI]

6. Who hired Pearl, Cheney, Ashcroft, and Rumsfeld? Did you forget? n/t

[Salviati]

18. Are any of these running for the democratic nomination?

[aquart]

4. Cheney.

[NV1962]

7. It's not Bush - it's the puppetmasters behind him

They dropped Bush Sr because he wouldn't play their game; they took Jr in because a) he plays and b) therefore had an apparent excuse to sell him as the "unifier" for the "fractured GOP" image after dropping Sr which delivered two terms of Clinton.

After Bush, a deluge of sock puppets are ready to take his place.

That's why I think the original statement is essentially correct.

[Bronco69]

2. "there are many people out there who are worse than Bush."

I'm curious who in the democratic field you think would be worse than bush*

[Meldread]

9. I'm sure there is at least one Democrat out there that is worse than Bush.

I don't think any Democrats who are running are, but ABB means "Anybody But Bush" -- that could include anyone within or outside the Democratic Party. I'm not willing to vote for just anybody. I'm damn proud of that, because I still believe candidates ought to work their asses off to earn my vote. I think America would be better off if more people took my attitude. I have *NEVER* voted for a candidate in *ANY* election that I didn't believe would serve my county, state, or country best.

If Nader were to run the only reason I wouldn't vote for him this go round (depending on Kerry not making any major mistakes to piss me off more than I already am), is the fact that he'd probably pull our troops out of Iraq the moment he got into office. I believe we should stay there until we've successfully helped the Iraqi's rebuild their government and country and not a moment sooner or a moment later. We owe that to them after ripping it apart and hopefully they can have an active working democracy.

[cjk]

11. There are some

who aren't that much better. Regardless, I don't want to play "vote for the lesser of two evils" all the time. If, say, Kerry does end up getting the nomination, I'll probably do just that in Nov. Supporting Howard Dean, I don't feel that way though, I truly respect him. So I'm stuck, if Howard (or Kucinich for that matter) doesn't get it. I want to punish the majority of squishy Democrats who up until very lately voted w/ Republicans, by not giving them my vote. But then who gets more punished in the end if Bush stays? I don't completely buy into Anyone But Bush, spinelessness should not be rewarded. And I get to face the same issue when it comes time for my senators (Clinton/Shumer) to run again. Sometimes I feel like we should get Bush again, let every suffer so completely that they finally come to their senses. Just an evil thought.

[Straight Shooter]

5. Hmm, do I vote for the guy who smacks me or the one who thinks I'm a fool?

Wow, I can hardly wait to cast a vote for the guy who thinks I'm a fool.

You aren't fooling me, Kerry. Not. one. damn. bit.

[Meldread]

13. He's not fooling me either.

I fully intend to make him earn my vote. I think that'll be much harder than simply saying I won't vote or I'll vote for someone else.

Like I said in another thread. All I want with Kerry is 10 min and a Video Camera. I'll ask questions so tuff that it'll make Hardball look like Softball, and I'll demand direct answers. I don't accept spin.

Right about now my view of Bush and Kerry are about on the same level with Kerry just barely above it. I have a great amount of contempt for them both, and could easily vote for a third canidate.

[He loved Big Brother]

34. See my sig meldread

[tedoll78]

8. I have a theory about things like this:

A lot of people are going to be disappointed with whomever the nomineee is. And at first, those people are going to whine and scream about how they'll never vote for that person.

And then the Chimp's minions will begin to attack the nominee. And the nominee (hopefully) will defend his stances. And those in our party who were adverse to voting for the nominee will see that any of these candidates is excellent, excellent, excellent to the alternative. And that he'll put-up good Supreme Court nominees. And take into more consideration the views of our allies in the world. And basically make decisions on a much more logical basis. And so on..

[Meldread]

10. Not me.

I'll probably be attacking Kerry on the issues I disagree with him with as well. I fully intend to make him earn my vote if he gets the nomination. And hopefully he will earn my vote in the General Election. If not then that's his loss. I live in Virginia and my vote could most certainly count toward his victory.

[MAlibdem]

16. Oh disappointment, disaster is thine child

"And hopefully he will earn my vote in the General Election. If not then that's his loss"

And mine, and yours, and the country's

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

20. Very condescending and rude.

"I want to make my contempt for Kerry VERY clear."

"I have very little respect for John Kerry"

Then this:

"can they stop the constant assault on the other candidates before they drive the wounds between the candidates even deeper? We'll find out."

Unbelievable.

[Meldread]

24. You should be happy that I'm even considering it.

It's the Kerry folks who have to earn my vote, not the other way around.

...and even though I won't be supporting Kerry by donating or volunteering (unless there is some miracle or I lose my mind) don't think that I won't go out of my way to promote a third party candidate over Kerry. If Kerry squanders my very fragile support I will throw my support behind someone more worthy. I've supported third parties in the past. Hell I've supported Republicans in the past (although they really WERE better than the Democrats -- but you get that in the South sometimes -- it's kinda strange when you have a moderate Republican and a Right Wing Democrat running for office).

[XanaDUer]

27. Are you for real?

Really for real? First of all, as has been discussed in a zillion other places on this board, Kerry is so far to Dean's left, anyone who thinks Kerry is not a committed liberal has a problem comprehending the history of the last 30 years.

Vote for whomever you want to , or don't vote at all. Telling other adults they have to "earn" your vote is absurd.

You vote for your own interests, not based on blackmail or telling people "shape up or I won't vote at all."

Guess what: there are as many, if not more people who have serious doubts about Dean, and for good reason. And they are as allowed to have those doubts as you do about Kerry. And express them here on DU.

Thank god more doubt Dean than Kerry.

Dean LOST Iowa before the scream.

[Old and In the Way]

30. You really, really ought to understand what the IWR vote was,

what the political stakes of the vote were, and what Kerry's statements were on his vote and what the vote meant.

Of all the people in the US Senate, I believe that Kerry was only one of a very few who actually knows the hell of combat firsthand...if you really think that Kerry's 1st inclination is to war, I think you are very mistaken.

I've postualated in multiple threads here on what I think the hidden agenda of the Republican's rolling out a pre-midterm vote and to the extent that some on the board continue to misrepresent what the vote was, I guess it was effective. But really, the authorization was to allow the President to use force only as a last resort if UN inspections were not allowed. Inspections were allowed and Bush disregarded the intent of the resolution and invaded, based on lies and misrepresentations that Iraq possessed WMD. Bush lied, Bush took unilateral action, Bush is the person responsible for the War.

Democrats had good reason to offer qualified support, but it had nothing to do with Iraq and weapons...I think it had more to do with a President most willing to take this country into a dictatorship.
Instead, the Hobb's choice was made and we handed Bush a heavily qualified and limited authorization that he chose to abuse. We handed him a rope and the fool has knotted the noose, draped it around his head, and is now standing on the chair waiting for it to be kicked out from beneath him.

If you decide to support Kerry and the Democrats in the GE, you should at least educate yourself on the real underlying political dynamics and not just from a knee-jerk, "black and white" anti-war perspective. The truth is never that "black and white". And it's much easier to defend the truth when you understand what the truth is.

[woofless]

22. Umm, until it started to become clear

that the PEOPLE want him and are voting for him. A trend that continues.

[cjk]

12. good point

re: supreme court, I forgot that argument in the ABB camp. I used that once to sucessfully convince an undecided voter on why I supported Clinton over Bush 1.

[tedoll78]

19. I am dead serious about those nominees.

If Ginsburg falls with cancer again, and if Stevens gets too old (he's in his mid-80's right now), and if O'Connor leaves, and if Rehnquist leaves finally, we could end-up with a 6-1-2 Conservative-Moderate-Liberal court where there are:

Scalia/Thomas/Nominee 1/Nominee 2/Nominee 3/Nominee 4:
Kennedy:
Souter/Breyer.

THAT scares the hell outta me.

Then again, ANY of these four candidates can put-up good, Ginsburg-like nominees. If Clinton-the-Conservative can, these guys can.

Imagine those above justices stepping-down with our nominee in office. We'd end-up with a 6-1-2 Liberal-Moderate-Conservative court.

Souter/Breyer/Nominee 1/Nominee 2/Nominee 3/Nominee 4:
Kennedy:
Scalia/Thomas.

There is too much at stake here for us to become political Veruca Salts, wanting the whole world and getting nothing in the end. Pragmatism is the order of the day.

[no name no slogan]

31. But don't forget, conservative Prezs have appointed liberal justices

Nixon appointed a couple of liberals to the SCOTUS, and Souder (who was thought to be moderate-conservative) was appointed by Bush II.

I agree that we have to be worried about the SCOTUS, but even more important are the circuit courts and the appelate courts. THAT'S where we REALLY need to be judicious, so to speak.

[MAlibdem]

15. Shhhhhh

Don't you know Heidenburg's (sp?) Principle? When you examine or expose something, you change it. Like when you explore repressed feelings, the neuroses go away. If you tell someone how they will act, they won't act that way because they know they are expected to.

Conscious and Unconcious processes, busy busy busy.

[eileen_d]

14. One thing I agree with you here

If Kerry is the nominee, and assuming you vote for him and/or he wins the presidential election - you're going to "stick it to him when I disagree with him" - and that is exactly how to promote change within the Democratic Party.

You might want to consider whether the General Election of 2004 is the appropriate time to "punish" Kerry for the votes you disagree with (IWR, etc.).

And believe me, your contempt for Kerry is "Krystal Klear" ;)

[KoKo]

21. I'm just about where you are on this thing about Kerry/Edwards....

And, I thank you for expressing it the way you have. I'm still so disappointed with his "annointment" so early.....that I couldn't put my thoughts together in the coherent way you did.

So, thanks....:-)'s

[ngGale]

25. Don't like the 'anointment' either and...

being an Edwards girl I have never heard him say he wanted to be a Vice. I think it would be someone else, did hear Dean's name mentioned. Wonder what Vice will be anointed? and why?

[ShaneGR]

23. No donations, support, campaigning, etc.

Well, I wouldn't have given to Dean if he had gotten it. So we cancelled each other out. Although I wouldn't have had to think twice about voting for Dean, I may not like him, but he's 1000 times better than Bush. As are all the other Democrats.

I do think the whole tactic a lot of Dean people had "threatening not to support another candidate" really backfired on them in Iowa.

[OneBlueSky]

26. glad you're rethinking your position, Meldread . . .

Dean brought a lot to this campaign, and fundamentally changed the way campaigns are conducted . . . this will be a lasting legacy, and you can be proud that you had a part in it . . . Kerry is certainly not a perfect candidate, but he is light years ahead of Bush . . . and we just can't afford to have Bush appointing two or three Supreme Court justices . . . the country won't survive it . . .

[mitchum]

28. Some things just aren't worth the effort

Kerry 2004

[sleipnir]

29. Meldread, I agree with much of your post

I also will "probably" end up voting for Kerry, but damned if he gets any of my money or support until he answers some really, really tough questions and prostrates himself to the Left wing of the Dem. Party. If he repents, and he's given no indication that he will, on many of his evil votes (and worse, non-votes), then I may warm more to him. I'd be caught wearing a Lieberman button before I'd wear a Kerry one, and that's saying a lot for me. Anyway, come general election, Yes, I probably will click on Kerry, but he's going to have to deal with my dissatisfaction and my courage to stand up to the evils that Kerry supported.

[sandnsea]

32. I demand an answer

And I by-fucking-god want it this time.

The Patriot Act.

Howard Dean is not repealing the fucking thing. That means he agrees with it. So what the hell difference does it make who voted for it in the first place?

I have never understood this argument from Dean supporters. None of the other pro-Dean arguments either, but we'll just stick to this one for now.

[Lexingtonian]

33. well, it's a start

It takes people quite some time to get over their Inner Republican (or, Hidden Gnostic). The Righteous Intolerance is so much fun, and so yielding of power rushes as long as one is unwilling to accept the possibility that the other guy may actually have been right. The Unwillingness To Be Reasonable always feels so principled, until it becomes clear that it does no one anything good and is in fact all about selfimportance rather than moral principle. The Double Standards For My Demagogue/Your Guy Is The Hypocrite routine always has the joy of a dramatic sketch. The Rejection Of Pragmatism is heady stuff too, only the ground rises up and crashes into you rather too often.