Dean backers...If Dean drops out support Kucinich!!

[Cascadian]

I am still counted as a Dean supporter and I went to the caucus today and voiced my support for him. It is not looking good right now, guys. If he does not win in Wisconsin, then it's all over. If Dean does leave the race, I will send my support to Dennis Kucinich. Everybody who supports Dean MUST go to Kucinich if that time does come.


I urge you all if Dean does drop out (I hope he doesn't then all must go to Kucinich.) I do not trust John Kerry and I get the feeling he will not be as strong as Howard Dean thus giving Bush four more years.


I plead with you all. Continue to support Dean but go to Kucinich if Dean does drop out.

John

[bahrbearian]

1. I was the only person in my Caucus the started with DK

then we broke into Kerry and Dean groups, those were split 50 - 50 in the groups, half the Dean supporters told me they would have started with DK if I would have pushed it!

[formernaderite]

35. If Dean goes, then I go with Dennis....

...after the primaries, who knows.

[lastknowngood]

2. Never after the crap he pulled in Iowa teaming up with Kerry

Edwards and Clark to take down Dean. Not going to happen. DK lost all of his credibility with that move.

[Paulie]

3. eek!

It was a one time deal with a different canidate than you posted.

How can you be so disappointed if you don't even know what happened, and why?

eek!

[JohnKleeb]

4. Paulie I wanna know how DK teamed up with Clark in Iowa

because Clark didnt even compete there. Anyhow tonight is a good night for DK, I hope he does well in Maine and the states to come.

[Paulie]

6. He had oatmeal with Clark in the AM, so the media reported...

... he was supporting Clark! ;)

Careful "hares", the "tortoise" is seeing ya asleep by the tree!!! :)

[JohnKleeb]

7. heh yeah

I think personally Clark would be the last guy DK would go to, because DK was a big opponent of the Kosovo war, and I commend him for that, that takes guts and principles to go against your party majority, and yes I disagreed with that war.

[Paulie]

11. Dennis seems to do that alot

On most issues, is it because Dennis is wrong, or that the party is really out of touch? :)

I'll take Dennis at 90% than anyone else at 95%. :D

[krkaufman]

31. Kucinich <=> Edwards

It was Edwards with whom Kucinich tried cutting a deal in Iowa.

[bahrbearian]

5. I'm not aware of what happened in Iowa

can you help me out?

[IndianaGreen]

8. Dennis told his supporters to caucus with Edwards if...

they weren't viable.

As I see it, Dennis did wrong in telling his people to support a candidate that voted for IWR. This is the moral equivalent of throwing your support to Lieberman, Kerry, or Gephardt.

I think that Dean people should go to Wes Clark. Clark is not confused about the war.

[Paulie]

10. Clark is not confused NOW

But when he threw his hat in, he seemed to have a different tune, if not a different sport.

But it's cool, Dennis is still there, plugging away. ;)

[krkaufman]

37. Multiple posters flying without their fact parachutes

Poster1:
> Clark is not confused NOW
> But when he threw his hat in, he seemed to have
> a different tune, if not a different sport.

Is singing a sport now? Severely mixed metaphor nearly overshadowing a complete misstatement of the facts.

Poster2:
> How can you say that?
> Clark not confused?
>
> So is saying you would have voted for IWR one day and
> then saying you would have never voted for it the next day
> a sign of a claer mind?
>
> The only thing Clark is sure of is that he better keep his
> mouth shut unless he's saying what his advisors tell him.

Just plain hateful. And sad. You've lost any right to criticize (with any integrity) the right-wing demagogues and fear-mongers.

---

Clark's position on both IWR and the war has been consistent, throughout. Your misunderstanding what his position is reflects more on your information sources and bias.

Clark testified before Congress that any resolution should not authorize war with Iraq, but that he supported a resolution threatening force in order that rigorous inspections could resume. Clark stressed in his testimony that Iraq was NOT an imminent threat and that we needed to focus on Al Qaeda and the war on global terrorism.

John Kerry, John Edwards & Joe Lieberman authorize war with Iraq, voting "yea" on the IWR, sending troops unnecessarily into harm's way and diverting focus and resources from the hunt for bin Laden in Afghanistan.

With troops in harm's way in Kerry's & Edwards' war in Iraq, Clark editorialized in The London Times, supporting Bush & Blair's efforts to successfully execute the war, but also commented on their failures and further steps necessary for final success.

Got a problem with supporting troops on the ground? Personally, I don't. I've got a problem with supporting politicians who send
men & women to die, unnecessarily -- for political expedience rather than as a matter of national security.

[plurality]

38. blah, blah, blah

Spin it however you want. It still doesn't change history. And it's a historical FACT that on the day Clark announced his candidacy he said he would have voted for IWR and he then said he wouldn't have voted for it the next day.

If it's as clear cut as you state, then why didn't he come out and say it that way? Instead he stumbled around, said he would have voted for it, then called out for his press secretary for help.

Here's the evidence-
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/clark/articles/2003/09/19/clark_says_he_probably_would_have_voted_for_war/


"On balance, I probably would have voted for it," Clark said. "The simple truth is this: When the president of the United States comes to you and makes the linkages and lays the power of the office on you, and you're in a crisis, the balance of the judgment probably goes to the president of the United States."

Now two weeks later

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/clark/articles/2003/10/24/clarks_scrambled_message_on_iraq/

"I would have voted no on that resolution," Clark said during that call. "I had serious concerns that the president had no intention of really building an international coalition." Clark said his doubts came as the result of discussions with friends in the Pentagon.

So first he would have voted for it, then he wouldn't have voted for it. Sounds quite sure of his position to me.

[plurality]

18. How can you say that?

Clark not confused?

So is saying you would have voted for IWR one day and then saying you would have never voted for it the next day a sign of a claer mind?

The only thing Clark is sure of is that he better keep his mouth shut unless he's saying what his advisors tell him.

[corporatewhore]

36. Clark is not confused about imperalism

free trade vieques SOA unabashed support for israel and its apartheid "fence"

[Paulie]

9. One time Deal

Dennis made a one time deal with Edwards, that if either of them were not viable, that the smaller group would go to the others. At the time, Edwards and Kucinich were polling at the same rate, with Dean way in the lead. It was a plan so that they could get SOME delegates to the state convention. Dennis got some, Edwards got quite a bit more, Dean alot less.

But the media played it up as Dennis ENDORSING Edwards, which was about as far from the truth as Bush is on WMD's. To paraphrase Dennis: "The only issue we agree on is getting Delegates."

[bahrbearian]

12. Still

The IWR was what got me into DK, throwing into Edward's just shocks me!!

[JohnKleeb]

14. I respect and understand that

but they have a good deal in common on domestics, frankly the domestics is what makes me like Dennis and of course hes the most anti war of em all and he has a bill in congress against patriot act.

[Paulie]

15. He didn't THROW with Edwards

He threw with a WARM BODY (who just happened to be a personal friend). Quite a bit different. :D

It was a fluke with the way Iowa rules did not allow "undecided" to the state convention. They HAD to be with someone above 15%. Not the case with other Caucus states, hence it was a one time deal.

[MuseRider]

17. He is a politician

and it was a political move in the very first caucus to make sure they both had some delegates and also to take some from Dean. It was a political move by a politician and some have crucified him for it. Personally I think it was a brilliant move. Considering his integrity if find it difficult to worry about this.

on edit not to take some from Dean but to make sure if they had to go somewhere it was not to Dean allowing both K and E to be viable. He did only suggest it, he never told anyone to do this, just suggested it. Not an endorsement. Sorry, I am tired and not thinking very well.

[rhite5]

50. Horse-trading in the Iowa Caucuses.

In reality, all kinds of different deals were made within the separate caucuses, each depending on the situation there. None of the DK voters was required to trade off with Edwards under any circumstances. The agreement with Edwards only amounted to a suggestion.

All campaigns were horsetrading whereever there was an advantage to be had. Remember there were almost 2000 different caucuses all going on at the same time. None of them knew how the others were doing. Most thought Dean was the front runner overall and would be the one to try to beat.

In the caucus that I saw details about, Edwards group gave Kucinich group 2 votes that they could spare and still hold their own, two people in the Gephardt group agreed to go to the Kucinich group since their group did not have enough to be viable. The combination was enough to give viability to Kucinich for that precinct. The precinct itself was won handily by Kerry with Edwards second and Kucinich third. No one else qualified.

If no trading had occured, only Kerry and Edwards would have gotten delegates to go to the next level from that precinct.

The media made it a big deal just to turn people off or give them something to gripe about. In reality, this is the way caucuses are supposed to work and they always have and it is not even newsworthy.

[MercutioATC]

33. Hey, look, I have nothing against Kucinich but the fact is he made a pact

with a candidate thet voted FOR the IWR, NCLB and the Patriot Act for the chance of getting a couple of delegates. I'm FROM the Clevaland suburbs and Kucinich has always seemes to be a stretch to me. What I didn't expect is for him wi align with Edwards for a delegate or two...

[mot78]

16. Kucinich teamed up only with Edwards

[WilliamPitt]

27. What??

[krkaufman]

30. Kucinich teamed-up with Edwards in Iowa

Kucinich teamed-up with Edwards in Iowa, not Kerry.

That is the only known pre-convention, official vote trading that's happened so far.

[Auntie Bush]

13. If Dean drops out...support Clark

With Dean and Clark together they (as insiders) could get rid of Edwards and then beat Kerry. That's the only way Dean can keep in the race.

[NoPasaran]

19. Sorry but I could only go with Clark

Dean: outsider
Clark: outsider

Kerry: insider
Edwards: insider

Kucinich: ???? I can't help but notice he's been in Congress a while. In spite of standing for everything we're supposed to hold holy on what basis is he also not a Washington insider?

[plurality]

20. Yeah you're right

Who gives a shit if he represents everything I want in a candadite. If he doesn't jive with some moronic marketing ploy he won't get my vote. :eyes:

[NoPasaran]

22. Okay, so the whole insider-outsider flame war was pointless

My primary is a month away. If Dean is kaput and there is another candidate who is a viable alternative to Kerry still in the race I would likely support him. At this point, I don't think that will come to pass.

[plurality]

24. Vote for who you want.

Just make sure you vote based on reality instead of something like a lobbyist who calls himself an 'outsider'. They're all insiders, that's why they get media coverage and money. If there's an outsider candidate in this race you haven't heard of him.

[Calico4000]

21. Believe it or not

You CAN actually have someone on the "inside" working for YOU. Dennis is one of those people.

[JohnKleeb]

26. bingo

I envy Cleveland for having such a man.

[newyawker99]

51. Hi Calico4000!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[corporatewhore]

34. not manyinsiders hold a union card he marched in battle of seattle 1999

in anti wto demonstrations
voting no on nafta/wto/imf/gatt permanent trade relations w/ china for starters

[Renew Deal]

23. If you want your point of view supported

with a candidate that can make it happen, you should support Clark. Kucinich isn't going anywhere and a cosmetic vote for DK isn't going to change that.

[LWolf]

25. I disagree.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=287270

[Guaranteed]

39. The only thing Clark has going for him is electability (much more than

Kerry- Clark doesn't have the IWR voting problems). As far as trusting him, he's Bill's guy. And while I used to love the Clintons, lately, they can kiss my ass.

I'm going with someone with integrity- I'll take Kucinich. Although, to be honest I think that Kucinich should drop out and support Dean.

[DemSigns]

28. Clark too! n/t

nt

[NashVegas]

29. I'm Sorry - Won't Happen

Not with me, anyways.

I see no reason to enable someone who worked so hard to torpedo Dean's campaign.

[w4rma]

32. Nope. I agree with IG (post #8) and Crisco (post #29), above. (n/t)

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cascadian]

48. I refuse to support Kerry.

I will vote for him if he is the nominee for the sake of getting Bush out of office but none of my money is going to his campaign nor will I make phone calls to drum up any support. I honestly do not think he is going to win. The Democrats are once again acting like lemmings to the cliff's edge. I just get the feeling it is not going to work.

John

[Eloriel]

41. No way

Some of the worst distortions and outright lies about Dean have come from the Kucinich camp.

Here at DU, it got so bad I had to put a former dear DU friend on ignore because of her outrageous and thoroughly untrue comments about Dean.

Plus, no way I can forgive the Edwards-Kucinich deal in Iowa. What little respect I had for him totally dissolved with that clever little ploy.

[Johnyawl]

42. Dean's 0 for 11 after spending 45 million dollars

...I get the feeling he will not be as strong as Howard Dean ...

You wanna explain to me how he's a stronger campaigner than Kerry?

[Hoppin_Mad]

43. If Kucinich drops out (more likely) support Dean -nt-

[no name no slogan]

46. Not happening

DK has enough $$ to go to the convention. He runs a VERY lean campaign-- volunteers do much of the work that paid staffers do on other "well funded" campaigns.

Also, DK does not have any debt. He's never had a lot of money before, so he's used to not needing it. Dean, OTOH, seems to think that the key to getting the nomination is outfundraising everybody else.

It hasn't worked for him yet. I don't see it working for him in the future, either.

[stickdog]

44. Why does Kucinich need us when he has the DLC?

Typical DLC tactic.

Stab us in the back and then ask for our support for nothing whatsoever in return.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

47. are you serious?

TWL

[DemBones DemBones]

45. Thanks, John. We must all remember that

Jesus Christ is not running for the Democratic nomination so we have to choose from among the half dozen imperfect human beings who are.

Each of the six candidates is trying to win, a process which includes criticizing/"attacking" his rivals, and may well include "dirty tricks" by some of his supporters.

I can easily list reasons not to vote for each man, and that does include Dennis Kucinich, who is my preferrred candidate.

There are, however, good reasons to vote for each of the six. The main one is "He's not George Bush."

It's not enough but it may have to do.

[REP]

49. No Thanks

If Dean does drop out by Super Tuesday, I will re-evaluate Kerry, Clark and Edwards and vote for one them if I have to, and hope that one of them surprises me in the way Bill Clinton did (I didn't think he was the best primary candidate, and now I think he was one of our better presidents). Under no circumstances would I throw away my primary ballot in the way that has been suggested.