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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:51 PM
Original message
Help Stop Irrationality in the Echo Chamber Within the GD Primary Forum
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 07:09 PM by David Zephyr
There is a level of irrationality here now in the General Discussion Primary Forum that is quickly swelling from the merely laughable and excusable to something more serious and more threatening. Something I would humbly ask everyone to consider...before it is too late. Before passions destroy some delicate intangibles that can never be reclaimed such as friendships, camaraderie and even the Democratic Underground itself. Perhaps it is already too late and Humpty Dumpty is already in free fall, as I write this. Maybe the inevitable scattering of the many, diverse and colorful elements that fused here long ago to create this unique egg is now a foregone conclusion. I hope not.

So let me be frank, at my own very peril, knowing that there will be many who will agree with what I am to say and, at the same time, there will be some who will feel challenged and need to strike back. I understand this. Rage is a powerful emotion and, while it has its merits, it is also has an intoxicating and addictive component to it which can blind one to one's own better interests.

I use the word irrationality, neither in reference to healthy arguments between DU’ers who support opposing candidates nor in reference to those who, perhaps, attempt to win someone over to their thinking or to their candidate. This is not what I am addressing. But so there will be no misunderstanding, let me make this very clear: It would be impossible to have a collection of so many great minds, talent, creativity and passion as we have here and not have friction, spark, and yes, even fire.

But, having nearly lost my home last year in the Grand Prix Fire, I can tell you, that an out-of-control inferno destroys everything in its blazing path. Everything. What’s left? Ashes, debris, the scorched carcasses of innocent wildlife and an overwhelming sense of loss. Great loss.

It is irrational for a supporter here of any of the Democratic candidates to suggest that another DU'er here can change the view of the actual candidate that they have chosen to support. No one here in our echo chamber has that power and those that think they do are irrational.

Here are some examples of what I speak:

One. I disagree with the votes of John Kerry and John Edwards with regards to the War in Iraq and the Patriot Act. I will never accept their rationale for having voting the way they did. Still, it would be irrational of me to think or suggest that the supporters of these two men could somehow make Kerry or Edwards themselves apologize for their votes. No Du’er has that power. There are Kerry supporters here who have honestly posted in humility that they believe his vote was a “mistake” and yet, they still support Kerry because they believe he will make a good President. There are others that don’t feel his votes were mistakes at all, and who are glad that the U.S. went to war in Iraq for their own reasons. And, still, there are others who feel in their hearts that Kerry was not approving Bush’s invasion with that vote. The Kerry supporters here at the DU do not run John Kerry’s campaign. Someone thinking that expressing anger and arguing over and over with a Kerry supporter will somehow change John Kerry himself is irrational. It is nuts. Write the Kerry campaign and complain, if you must, but why beat up on someone here in the echo chamber that has no power over the candidate they support.

Two. Dr. Dean did not invent the current anti-war movement in the U.S. The anti-war movement rose in direct proportion to what was perceived throughout 2001 and 2002 to be a growing and callous indifference to the Left by the leadership within the Democratic Party itself. In fact, the perception was more than just a sense of alienation from those many of us had come to trust, from those many of us had worked for, stood by and defended. The perception became one of brutal betrayal.

One might convincingly argue that it should have been Representative Dennis Kucinich who should have been the rightful repository of the support of the anti-war movement since it was Kucinich alone of all the announced participants in the presidential contest who actually stood valiantly in a tiny minority to vote against both the Patriot Act and the IWR. But, Kucinich soon found the former Governor of Vermont, Howard Dean, while not in Congress, also speaking loudly and effectively against the War and the Patriot Act and drawing a substantial proportion of that support. And by the end of 2003, General Clark entered the race further splintering the anti-war sentiment and support.

What is irrational here in our echo chamber, is manifested by posters in trying to change the deeply held convictions of Kucinich, Dean and Clark supporters that the War or voting for the IWR and Patriot Act was not wrong. Why waste energy? Here’s something I know you will agree with, not even Dean, Clark or Kucinich have ownership to the anti-war and anti-Patriot Act sentiment felt so strongly by many of us. So why ask us to wink at something we find reprehensible? We can’t oblige.

Three: A third case of irrationality is manifest with regards to the Civil Union / Gay Marriage question. I started a Poll here a while back with the intention of subtlety demonstrating this same irrationality with the thread title “Should Gays & Lesbians Go Back Into the Closet to Help Democrats Win in November?” The question itself was preposterous, wasn’t it? As if we queer DU’ers could somehow go to our secret, gay microphones and broadcast to the entire Gay and Lesbian community issuing an edict to shut up and delay their quest for equality under the law until a Democrat was safely living within the White House again. My question was intentionally preposterous and yet, many took it seriously. I actually received a message to my “inbox” pleading with me and making the case that homosexuals were endangering the Democrats chances and that we queer folks should “just drop it”. How irrational was that? Did this man actually think that I was the King of All Homosexuals and could decree such a nutty thing? The Poll was made in hopes of having people here see their own irrationality in suggesting such nonsense.

Kerry and Edwards supporters in the DU echo chamber can not change what their candidates do or say. Dean, Kucinich and Clark supporters in the DU echo chamber can not change what their candidates do or say. In fact, Dean, Kucinich and Clark will not be able to even deliver the anti-war / anti-Patriot Act crowd to vote for a Democrat in November should the nominee be someone other than themselves. And homosexuals here in the DU echo chamber can not command the millions of gay and lesbian couples to stop in their earnest mission to secure the dignity and legal rights that they feel that their families deserve.

Put away the matches and kerosene.

As a Socialist, who happens to be a life-long Democrat (talk about irrational!), I believe that it really makes no difference in the grand, eternal scheme of things whether a Republican or Democrat sits in the White House because socialism is inevitable no matter what political road we travel down. There are Socialists who can argue quite effectively that we will get “there” quicker with a Republican despotic, fascist government because it inadvertently educates the masses to class awareness and consciousness and thereby hurries progress towards socialism through rebellion as compared to a slower, incremental road to the same goal through welfare corporate capitalism which slowly hemorrhages the concentrated wealth from the few to the many through more public programs, redistribution of wealth through progressive taxation and such. Certainly, the latter usually comes with less turmoil and mayhem than the former, which is why I choose the ballot over the bullet. Of course, any of the viable Democrats would be “better” than George Bush as President and less of a threat to the planet. I may choose a Socialist ballot or a Green Ballot over a Democratic Ballot, but I will not choose a Republican ballot just to hurry chaos and insurrection. Should I do so, why attack me? Let me suggest that it is irrational to think that my one single vote would make a difference in November. How could it?

So all that to say this. Shortly, this Primary Process will have concluded. Shortly there will be a presumptive nominee to be the standard bearer of the Democratic Party who will be better than Bush. No doubt about it.

It is my hope that the DemocraticUnderground.Com will remain the very same home it has been for over three years to Democrats, Greens, Socialists and Leftists from all over the world---many of whom can’t even vote here. Don't we need them, too? And while it is understandable that there would be a desire to defeat Bush, I would suggest that to stifle any and all criticism of the Party’s nominee would render the Democratic Underground to little more than a Basement extension below the Democratic National Committee’s House, hardly an underground. More an Upstairs / Downstairs arrangement.

And herein is the thankless challenge facing poor EarlG and Skinner and the Administration, to somehow hold it all together, to stop the precious egg from falling from off the wall. And we can help them as individuals by re-evaluating many of the irrational expectations we may have from other DU’ers. Finally, it is my most sincere hope that many of the banned DU’ers may be allowed to come back as well.

Thank you for listening and for putting up with me for over three years.

David Zephyr
Claremont, California

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/complete/la-na-deaniacs7feb07,1,3725433.story?coll=la-elect2004-complete
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. *APPLAUSE*
Standing ovation, in fact!
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. You Are One Tenacious Person.
And I expect that you and I will mostly have to agree to disagree, but I do acknowledge your great grace and humility here, BLM and also, as I have said many times before, I swear that John Kerry should be on his knees in eternal gratitude to have such a supporter as yourself. :thumbsup:

Thanks.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. heh
When you grow up in a poor family with 11 brothers and sisters, you have to be a bit tougher than most. However, it also allows for a great expansion of the heart.

*smooch*
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good post.
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 07:04 PM by jpgray
The great worth of DU is that all these groups are represented, but they are not always analogous to the real world manifestations of these groups. DU should be treated as DU, and winning polls here is not as big a deal as winning them elsewhere. But if your candidate survives attacks and can still stand after he has been the frontrunner or otherwise in the firing line, you know that you have accomplished something. This goes also for finding a common ground with folks you disagree with.

The very best of DU is found in the diversity of viewpoints. Without Greens, Socialists, GLBTs, pagans, blacks, Jews, hispanics, Deaniacs, Clarkies, Al freaks, Dennies, Edwards fans and Kerryites, this board would not be as great as it is.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. "The very best of DU is found in the diversity of viewpoints"
Couldn't possibly agree more. :thumbsup:

"Without Greens, Socialists, GLBTs, pagans, blacks, Jews, hispanics, Deaniacs, Clarkies, Al freaks, Dennies, Edwards fans and Kerryites, this board would not be as great as it is."
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. There's one notable exception that I know of. WRP has Kucinich's ear. nt
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That, and the fact that you're secretly Lyndon LaRouche (nt)
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. LOL. Got tinfoil? nt
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Another beautiful post from you
I am in complete agreement with your thoughts (although I have acted against them too many times)
I hope that all DU-ers read your piece
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Thanks.
:thumbsup:
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent words. Thank you, DZ
I have a faith in people. DU, as much as I love it and the people here, is not always indicative of the real world. I'm pretty sure that once we have a nominee, if not officially at least presumtively(?), people here will rally around and fight like hell to give GW his pink slip. Some people are here now just to stir up shite and they may or may not stick around. But the DUers who remain will be able to remain civil and offer the in-depth discussion that makes this site the best there is.

Or so I believe.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. Made in Maine by Maniacs.
Thanks to you, right back. This is definitely not "the real world", it's an asylum. It would have to be if I'm here.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. King Canute commanding the tides
:)

Good post.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. Gracias.
Thanks for helping Kucinich's campaign get out his message.

I saw your informative post about his healthcare proposal. He and Carol Mosely Braun offered the only plan I;ve ever agreed with.

Universal, taxpayer funded, 100% inclusion and not-for-profit.

You are working with and for a great American.

The rest are just more of the same.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. At our caucus today I had a good discussion
with a Kerry supporter who I hold in high regard. He told me that as a Democrat I have to promote Kerry if he wins the nom.

heh heh We Irish do not like being told we have to do anything.

Anyhow, I told him NO I don't have to do so. What I promised to him though, and I meant what I said, was that I will not say anything negative about Kerry in a GE and will continue to make Bush's many blemishes clear for all to see. I will continue my party building efforts as membership chair and will focus on some state races instead. I also assured him I will continue working to change the party so that the establishment as we know it does not wield the power that it now has forever. No, it is time for the new guard to move in.

I don't know that he was completely satisfied with my concessions but he realized it was the best he'd get today.

It is my great hope that the energy created in this primary season is put to good use.

We have the power and we're going to use it.

Julie
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. I applaud your post and respect your beliefs
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 07:11 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
My own posts would have never gotten toxic but for the race to frame anyone not going along with the Dean campaign or Kucinich campaign a PNAC supporter or a war apologist.

Dean may have strengthened the left with his campaign or further divided it. It remains to be seen.

I don't ask anyone to wink at anything.

I've been around elections long enough to know the only strength there is is in numbers.


It is easy to argue nothing will ever change but to argue that one has to discredit the fact that the number of US citizens living in poverty the US went DOWN under Clinton. Or that equity and parity went UP under FDR.

It is easy to get enraged about all the blood and guts and gore on the war vote but what about all the lives sacrificed every day around this planet for our lifestyles? Coffee...coltan....and a variety of valuable resources over which wars are fought and we are the beneficiary every single day without mention on DU.

I've never been a fan of the "it needs to get worse to get better" crowd because frankly, they are ADVOCATING war with that statement while pretending they aren't. I'll take Martin Luther King's peaceful revolution over a violent one anyday.

All I am asking is for those that would sit on a computer or talk on a cell-phone whose components are made with COLTAN which is responsible for the lives of countless Africans to rectify this inherent contradiction for me.

Are the deaths we SEE more real than the ones we don't?

Didn't we ALL contribute to those deaths?

Anyone stop driving since the start of the Iraq war to punish the machine that drives the war?


Anyone?
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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. Bravo! You're one more reason why I appreciate DU!
Thank you for taking the time to compose and post this, it's terrific. I believe you have captured the sentiments of many people here.


Hats off to David Zephyr! :thumbsup: :kick:

>Rage is a powerful emotion and, while it has its merits, it is also has an intoxicating and addictive component to it which can blind one to one's own better interests.< -DZ
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. Great post!
:)
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you
If I get told one more time about how I am either ignorant of a certain candidates record in regards to issus that I have lived with for over 20 years or that I am just a liar I may burst a vessel. I have no earthly idea the extent to which I will, or won't, participate in helping the Democratic ticket this time. I will vote for it that I can say. But I am sure not going to become convinced by being called an ignorant liar because I supported a candidate that some people don't like.
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YouMustBeKiddingMe Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. Excellent Post!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. Well......Just My Humble Opinion! Dean supporters are not Dot Com Bubble
but, I understand some of the point of your post...I do...it's deeper than most folks want to go, here. Or that some newbies even care about.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. Good post....and what NSMA said.
I've said on many occaisions over the past 2 years here, I'll support the candidate who gains the Party nomination. And I'll do that with my strongest support.
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. You're not the King of All Homosexuals?
Wow. Well, given this new perspective, I guess I have to find your post pretty reasonable then!

;-)
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