Convince me why I should not be ABB...

[Hippo_Tron]

I have two reasons for being ABB.

1) I generally believe that all of the current candidates would make fairly good presidents and would do a significantly better job than Bush.

2) The Supreme Court nominations are probably the issue that I care about the most because I believe that they will have the most impact on the future of the country. I will do pretty much anything to get rid of somebody who will appoint fascists to the court.

Anyway, convince me why I should not support candidate "Insert candidate here" should he win the nomination.

Edit: I'm not referring to voting for Bush instead of the democratic nominee (I'd hope this is obvious) I'm referring to people who will vote Green Party if they don't like the outcome of the democratic primary.

[Maat]

1. I happen to agree wholeheartedly...

that's why I will not convince you otherwise. Anyone but Bush 2004!

[ShaneGR]

21. You cannot be convinced, why? GEORGE W BUSH

The whole "I won't vote for candidate X in the GE, because candidate X is the same as Bush" soundcs JUST like "Al Gore is no different than George W Bush."

Once a week I send a thank you letter to Ralph Nader's email for being a complete ****.

[eileen_d]

22. I think the person you are replying to is ABB

Maybe you misread her post? :shrug:

[incapsulated]

2. Because..

If you are then you don't get to hang out with the cool kids and wear black Anarchy t-shirts and be like, all angry and different and stuff.

[IndianaGreen]

3. You should vote your conscience, and respect those that do

For example, I wouldn't expect someone that believed that abortion was the taking of human life to vote for a candidate that was not pro-life. As a matter of fact, many people that would agree with Democrats on economic issues vote Republican solely on account of the abortion issue.

I don't expect people that opposed unjust wars, as Iraq was declared to be by many religious leaders including the Pope, to vote for candidates that supported the war.

Likewise people that oppose the School of the Americas or nuclear weapons cannot be expected to vote against their conscience.

One cannot expect people with core values based on faith and/or ethics to violate them.

I won't discuss situational ethics on this thread.

I had the privilege and the honor to march alongside members of Pax Christi, the international Catholic peace movement. I have donated money to Pax Christi in the past for their efforts in defending human rights and peace. Pax Christi position on the war in Iraq was issued as a press release:

Pax Christi USA Statement on Commencement of War in Iraq

Statement on Commencement of War with Iraq - March 21, 2003

Pax Christi USA mourns the failure of U.S. policy and unequivocally condemns the illegal and immoral war on Iraq. No nation, regardless of its power or privilege, has the right to disregard the United Nations’ charter. The policy of “preemptive war” has been condemned by the Vatican, rejected by the United Nations Security Council and opposed by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. Pax Christi USA rejects war, preparations for war, and every form of violence and domination.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of Iraq as they endure the violence, chaos and uncertainty of war. We are inspired by the commitment of our bothers and sisters on the Iraq Peace Team who have remained with the people of Iraq to share in their suffering and we pray for their safety and serenity as war unfolds around them.

<snip>

Here at home, Pax Christi USA condemns the ongoing racial and ethnic profiling and violations of civil liberties of U.S. citizens and foreign nationals living in the U.S. which are today facing interrogation and ongoing confinement by federal law enforcement offices.

<snip>

True peace is the fruit of just relationships and is never achieved though violence. True security will come only when our nation is able to fulfill its role as the most powerful nation on earth with humility, compassion, reciprocity and solidarity with the community of nations. As disciples of the Nonviolent Christ, we recommit ourselves to the pursuit of justice and development of lasting peace.

http://www.paxchristiusa.org/news_statements_more.asp?id=502

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

4. ABB hysteria is overrated

It's a two-party system. In November there will be a Republican and a Democratic candidate.

In theory, one can be a Democrat and still vote for the Republican nominee. If you think Bush is doing a swell job then you vote for him. In that case, why are you here?

If you don't think Bush is doing a swell job, you vote for the Democratic nominee.

[Maat]

6. I see your point...

I'm voting Democratic...that's what I mean anyway when I say ABB 2004! That's why I'm here. I'm a Democrat..through and through. Who said Bush was doing a good job?

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

11. I wouldn't think anybody here thinks Bush is doing a swell job

I merely point out that in theory people do cross over and vote for the other party sometimes. I don't think that will be so much the case with Democrats in this election. I think in this election we will see more Republicans cross over and vote for the Democratic nominee.

[Hippo_Tron]

7. No... There's the Green Party

And from the attitudes I've seen on this board, many people will be voting for the Green Party's nominee should certain candidates be nominated.

[countmyvote4real]

12. Green = * in the GE.

or were you not paying attention in 2000?

[Hippo_Tron]

14. Did you read the topic, I am currently ABB...

Which more specifically means that I have no intention of supporting anybody but the democratic nominee. I'm asking for the opinions of those who might not be supporting the democratic nominee in the 2004 election.

[countmyvote4real]

19. You're right. I missed that at the bottom of your original post.

My bad.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

17. Doesn't change the fact that we essentially have a two party system

Their votes essentially help Bush. They might as well register their votes directly for him.

Their numbers are negligible. I'm not worried about them.

[theorist]

5. Honestly, I don't know how.

I feel the same way. Even if one does not believe that we have a group of criminals running what Mike Malloy calls America, Inc., as many of us DUers do, everyone must realize that we need to shake up the federal government.

The Republicans would counter our arguments by citing *'s successes in the "War on Terra". (These successes are actually small in scope when you compare them with the amount of money being spent.) They hold that changing the leadership of this country would put us in more danger. Unfortunately for them, this is akin to holding all of us hostage, "scaring us in the voting booth" as Bush so prophetically put it back in the 2000 Presidential Debates. (He was referring to Gore's criticism of his "tax relief".)

Everyone should ask themselves if they feel better about their lives now than they did four years ago. This will necessarily be affected by 9/11, and it should. We need not blame anyone for these events to come to the final conclusion: Bush must go. He is not helping us solve any problems, but has vastly manufactured new ones.

The only reason you should not be ABB is if you honestly feel that you and the whole of this country are better off than in January 2001. If you see nothing but a prosperity ahead, then you are obligated to yourself to vote for Bush, but unless you are Ed Gillespie, this is a preposterous notion.

[Maat]

8. Exactly.

[RafterMan]

9. It's like this

If the Democratic party's general election candidate has positions that violate your basic sense of what this country stands for, how do you let them know? Ranting on a bulletin board? Lighting yourself on fire? How about voting?

Bush is horrible, and I will compromise all I can. But no more.

[countmyvote4real]

10. Because it's the Primary/Caucus. It's not the GE yet.

This is the time we choose our nominee. This is the time you really get to vote your conscience and what's best for you and the country.

I applaud your general motivation for regime change, but I'm sure you have some ideas for what you'd like to see in its place. At least I hope.

The primaries provide us a chance to vote some direction to our party. Think about it and vote accordingly.

Anyway, glad to know that you will vote against * whether our nominee is Sharpton, Kerry, Edwards, Kucinich or Clark.

[Hippo_Tron]

13. Oh I intend to vote my conscience in the primary...

Which is Kerry but I would support anybody but Bush for president in the GE including Sharpton. Even though he doesn't have much experience in politics, I can't honestly tell myself that Bush would make a better president because it's simply not true. I started this thread because of the large amount of people who claim that they will not be voting democratic should certain candidates win the nomination.

[countmyvote4real]

16. Thanks for the info. If Kerry comes to pass

I'll support him with full knowledge that it's four more years of *. (Kerry will lose.)

Dear God, please, prove me wrong. Hail Mary.

[Hippo_Tron]

18. I see all of our candidates having a good chance against Bush...

If their campaigns are well run. I think it's really a question of how well the campaign is run and if the candidate and the campaign staff will have the balls to run the necessary harsh but truthful ads about the administration.

[Old and In the Way]

20. National polls show Kerry beating Bush 53-46 today.

What's with the "Bush wins if Kerry's in the GE" meme?

OK, I know here it's mostly posturing by the supporters of other candidates. Frankly, any one of our candidates would beat Bush in November.

However, if I was Bush with $200MM in the bank, I'd be having my RNC ops posting everywhere I could that "kerry loses to Bush".

But since they are liars, I certainly wouldn't start believing them now.

[Hippo_Tron]

27. You need to learn not to trust CNN polls...

Again, I'm a Kerry supporter but I don't trust CNN polls even when I like what they say.

[Cronus Protagonist]

15. Now that Lieberman has been soundly rejected by the voters

I'm in the ABB camp except that I think it behooves us all, and the country, to choose a person who would win the election as close to certainly as possible.

All of the current players would be WAY better than Bush, so after the primaries, it's ABB all the way.

"ANYBODY BUT BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[bowens43]

23. I think ABB is a misnomer.

I seriously doubt that ANYONE is ABB. How about LaRouche? He's a Democrat running for president. I think you are not ABB, you're AOTCMCBB (Any Of The Current Mainstream Candidates But Bush). I have no problem with that. If you believe that any of the current Dem candidates would be better then bush for our country then that's fine. I don't believe that, so I am not AOTCCBB. Personally, I'm not convinced that the country would be better off in the long run with Clark in the oval office , so I won't vote for him. I'm not going to try to convince you or anyone else not to vote for Clark, if by some unforseen twist of fate he was to get the nomination, but I won't vote him.

[Mairead]

24. You and all the others who are really 'ABBandX' rather than 'ABB'

are on the right track. It matters GREATLY whom we nominate because there are enormous differences between the candidates that 'ABB' totally ignores. 'ABB' expects us to dial down our brains to the level of a frog's, where we're unable to perceive anything but light vs dark.

'ABB' is good for the corporatocracy, but a huge mistake for us.

[Iverson]

25. OK

First of all, your post suggests that you are not, in fact, for ABB.

The reason not to be so is because it is a minimum but not a sufficient condition for support. Paul Bremer is not Bush, so he satisfies the conditions of ABB, yet few here would vote for him.

This means that you have some kind of expectations of a candidate, and those expectations derive from some political preferences. In your case, Supreme Court nominations are an example.

Since not everybody shares an identical set of preferences or expectations, there are multiple not-Bush possibilities. Not everyone will be satisfied with the eventual Democratic nominee.

You seem to be asking Greens to persuade you to abandon your preferences. I have no intention of doing that. You vote for whom you think best. Now if you wanted a dialogue in order to better understand a different viewpoint, I recommend initiating it with something other than a challenge.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. To clarify...

ABB in my dictionary means that I would vote for any of the 6 candidates running for the democratic nomination over George W Bush and would not vote for Green.