Just where is the line in the sand going to be drawn?

[Solon]

I see torture apologist after torture apologist berate those of us that actually believe in human rights, and that those who DON'T believe in those rights STILL deserve our votes.

Seriously, what does it take for some of you to NOT vote for a candidate? I swear, sometimes I think some among us are so "pragmatic" that they would STILL vote for a candidate even if they raped a child while kicking a dog on Live TV just because they have a damned D after their name.

This isn't really about party politics at all, but human decency, this isn't just another issue that we disagree with, this is about what little decency we have actually developed in over 5000 years of "civilization" just thrown out of the window on a fucking BALLOT of all things.

Seriously, do these documents, linked here, mean nothing?

What is really ironic, how many of you voted here, basically saying you would still vote for people who will, hopefully soon, be in prison for the rest of their natural lives.

[Nite Owl]

1. Amen

Before anything else I am an American and a vote against the Constitution is treason no matter who did it. The end does not justify the means and that goes for any party.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. When you step down off your high-horse

Then we can talk. But your alleged moral supremacy doesn't exactly create a conversation starting point.

[Solon]

3. What high horse?

A vote for torture makes you a torturer yourself. It really is that simple, you are either against torture or for it, there is no "middle" ground, no center, nothing.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

4. I think it's more about taking back control of the government

so that the current majority of torture lovers (i.e. Republicans) don't have enough influence to push through legislation like this.

[Solon]

5. That's not good enough...

Not NEARLY good enough, in a just world, everyone who voted for this bill should spend the rest of their lives in a Max Security prison, with MAYBE one hour per day to be allowed outside.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. And you still don't see the high horse?

Laughable.

[Solon]

17. We judge Lynndie England...

Is that being on a "High Horse"?

These "people" are on the same moral level, perhaps even less, for they won't get to SEE their victims.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

18. I'm not perpetuating this discussion.

You're far less than rational on this one.

[Solon]

19. Explain how this is an irrational position...

What's the difference between the person who ENDORSES torture, and the torturer themself?

[nam78_two]

9. but how is that gonna happen

:shrug:

[Solon]

12. Appeal to the ICC through grassroots, on behalf of all detainees...

We need to get a promise from Congress that they will not oppose any investigation by the ICC, and when a Democrat is in the White House as well, that we sign on and FULLY support that institution.

[nam78_two]

13. I agree that would be best

But how many people do you think we would need for that? Not flaming-just asking...

I am disheartened by how many Joe/Jane Averages seem to not know/care :(...
I wonde how big a chunk of the populace would be needed behind that before these people listen/care...

It just seems that it would all be so much more feasible via the Dems. I am angered at the Dems that voted the way they did...But I still have faith in the Democratic Pary as a whole.

[Solon]

16. All you need is one...

One detainee who is released that is willing to file a grievance. But they will need backup, a LOT of backup, and needs to make the case before the ICC. If we are to be even a halfway decent nation again, we need to capitulate to ALL investigations and prosecutions under that body, this includes, if it goes that far, even some Congresspeople being put on trial for war crimes.

[bowens43]

11. Yes, it is good enough

and if you don't see that you're blind.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

15. Baby steps

What you seem to want is for everything to be fixed, all at once. The reality is that taking control of the House and/or Senate is just one step on the path back towards sanity in our government. If it means voting through some idiot dems who voted in favor of torture, so be it. The only viable alternative at this point is voting through republicans, and as we know they ALL voted for torture.

[nam78_two]

6. yeah sometimes the choices before one suck

But whats the option :shrug:
The "people" by and large aren't gonna do squat while there are video games to be played, movies to be watched and fun stuff to do....

The dems taking back congress seems the only option to stopping more egregiousness...:shrug:
It isn't being in support of torture etc...its trying to stop it the only way that seems actually viable :shrug:?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. Thank you.

We have a winner.

[bowens43]

10. Another one who doesn't get it.

If you really oppose torture , the only thing you can do to ensure that more bills like this don't become law is to work for Democratic control of congress. By not voting for these Dems you are almost guaranteeing that things are going to get worse. It is the height of stupidity to risk control of congress to punish these dems. It amazes me how short sighted so many here have become. They let their anger and their indignation override their brain.

You want to cut off your nose to spite your face.

[Solon]

14. Congress is already powerless, because of the actions of BOTH...

parties in Congress. By the time we get around to actually be in a position to oppose the President, it is ALREADY too late. We ceded SOO MUCH POWER to the President, it is completely ridiculous. Remember this, the he commands the Military, and I really don't think he has any qualms about using it.

[MrCoffee]

20. Who will draw the line?

There's no one in the Senate with any credibility to do so. House Democrats who voted for this abomination have no credibility to do so.

[Solon]

21. That line was drawn in 1949, and these "people" crossed it...

no excuses.