If Kucinich had as much $$$ as Kerry, would he be the frontrunner?

[dolstein]

[Terwilliger]

1. no

[el_gato]

2. no because

He would be smeared all to hell and back by the corporate propaganda machine. Right now they feel comfortable with marginalization.

[Terwilliger]

7. if he had had money to begin with, he would have been attacked long....

before now

[Iverson]

3. of course not

He doesn't celebrate militarism.
He doesn't offer a weak "me too" to empire.
He's crazy!!
:crazy: :silly:

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

4. No. It takes votes and winning a primary to be a front runner

And Kucinich would be my first choice if he had the votes.

[Terwilliger]

10. umm

it takes money to get anywhere near winning anything in this country...much less a primary

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

19. Case in point - Dean had the most money

Blew 42Mil in IA and NH and fell flat on his face.

He spent the most money, by FAR, but didn't have the VOTES.

Checkmate

[stickdog]

24. Dean's tiny spending advantage was NOTHING compared to the

DLC's advantage in spare kamikaze candidates, 24/7 media compliance soft money and party insiders who ran the vast majority of the caucus sites.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

27. His tiny spending advantage??

HA! That doesn't deserve a reply!

[Hippo_Tron]

29. Kamikaze candidates?

By that do you mean everybody but Dean, Kucinich, and Sharpton?

[Desertrose]

15. if everyone who said this just GAVE him the votes....he'd have them

your post makes no sense....

And Kucinich would be my first choice if he had the votes.


So vote for him...simple enough,right?

Peace
DR

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

20. But everybody is not giving him the votes

He doesn't have the support. He's not even spending any money. he has no chance of winning. He knows that and he's not going into this with the intention of winning the nomination, but to have his message on the table and being heard.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[cprise]

5. No because

...that money would not have come from corporate sources, and people still follow the impressions they get from the mass media.

[displacedtexan]

6. Not unless his $ resulted in votes.

$ gets your name and your message out to people who otherwise wouldn't have a clue as to who you are.

Endorsements +
$$$ +
Votes =
more endorsements,
more $$$, and
more votes

[stickdog]

8. The media would crucify Kucinich 24/7 if he had a shred of viability.

Since he doesn't, it's easier to just ignore him.

[tinanator]

14. on what?

a cross?

[stickdog]

21. Who knows? What did they crucify Dean on?

All of the media and opponent attacks on Dean combined didn't add up to a single issue of true political significance.

Meanwhile, when was the last time you saw an article talking about the difference between the way Dean, Clark OR Kucinich have raised their funds and the way the rest have raised theirs?

[tinanator]

28. dont hold your breath waiting for the medias assistance

I really dont think anyone crucified Dean, except maybe Dean and possibly his supporters. Scream scandal or no scream scandal. If you need the media to win, you better be backing Bush.

[Desertrose]

30. good point tinanator....that gelled my thoughts rather well

If you need the media to win, you better be backing Bush.


This thread made me think....for Dennis,its not about money- never has been. Its about connecting people to people...not people to a personality.
Its about giving us and asking us to claim OUR power....not to give it to him.

I can't imagine a more clear and viable choice to the bush/coprorate/establishment....no wonder they *disappeared* him....but they can't disappear millions of people who have finally claimed their voice!!!

GO DENNIS!



peace
DR

[blm]

9. If Kucinich had Dean's $$$$$ he might have been able to maintain a lead

for much longer, since his positions were rooted HONESTLY and had a strong foundation in his longtime record that matched his campaign rhetoric.

[Terwilliger]

11. If Kucinich had Dean's money

you wouldn't "like" Kucinich as much

[blm]

16. Then you don't know me.

I have ties to DK that probably go back further than you have been alive.

[Terwilliger]

17. but?

You're voting for John Kerry? You've sclepped John Kerry since I can remember. Your ties to Kucinich are quaint...does he know you don't support him in the least?

Oh, I FORGOT! You're supporting him in terms of safe voting, and "keep him in the race to get his message out" I'm sure that is the same as truly supporting him.

[blm]

18. Believe what you want.

I support them both for heartfelt reasons.

DK has had great and passionate supporters here in numbers that Kerry did not have throughout last year. I had taken up Kerry's cause before DK entered the race. I decided to stick up for them both and send money to them equally.

[Tinoire]

40. Uh Ter.... BLM voted for Kucinich

BLM has been ardently Kerry & Kucinich from day one. Voted for Kucinich the other day and has been brutally frank in the defense of both.

[JohnKleeb]

42. I would vote for Kucinich if I could vote

Ive taken a very simliar stance with blm since Iowa.

[JohnKleeb]

31. terwill umm blm worked for Kucinich way back in the day

She has always been defending and supporting him. Trust me on that one.

[stickdog]

22. Your argument is 100% specious.

The media painted Dean as an angry far left liberal and haven't changed their tune to this day. The media never examined Dean's highly ELECTABLE moderate longtime record -- just as they never examined Kerry's HIGHLY UNELECTABLE longterm MA tax and spend record.

And Kerry still does better against Dean with moderate and conservative Dems than he does with liberal Dems. Is this Kerry's fault for not being HONEST about how liberal you alway assure us he really is?

[blm]

25. DU supporters applauded Dean as an angry far left liberal....at first.

and rewarded him for it. And you know that.

[stickdog]

26. No. We rewarded Dean for speaking the truth. We knew his record.

We LIKED his fiscal responsibility because we thought it was a winning issue, and we thought the country needed it right now anyway.

We just wanted a regular, honest Democrat in the White House rather than another pre-annointed figurehead, ultimate insider and/or politician's politician.

[blm]

37. Ultimate insiders don't investigate and expose the powerstructures

behind government. Kerry did. and was ostracized for it by the establishment who also weren't too thrilled with his crafting of the Kyoto Protocol that they were set against.

Dean is a CORPORATIST and those so-called "truths" you hail found Dean backtracking out of some of them.

He lied about his original position as antiwar. He lied about the Biden-Lugar bill and IWR.

He lied about being a reformer, because his record as governor showed him to be a DEregulator. He sealed the Entergy deal papers.

YOU vote for your corporatist who has fooled so many by coopting the language of internet message boards.

I'll stick with honest progressives like Kerry and Kucinich who have 35 years of records that match their voices on the campaign trail.

[tinanator]

12. If Kucinich had the DLC he would be the frontrunner

but he wouldnt be Kucinich. It is NOT about money, not at that level. It is about moneyed power. Stuff you just dont consider when you look for a "winner" rather than a leader. I wonder what the founders would think of us?

[iowapeacechief]

13. I voted yes...

...for the sake of argument. My real answer is more like: "I think it's conceivable."

But it's a good question, and I think we could learn from asking ourselves where that money could have come from and what else would have happened along the way.

For starters, I'll say he would have made a surprisingly good showing in Iowa and followed with another in New Hampshire. I never doubted those possibilities.

[West Coast Democrat]

23. If Kucinich had Kerry's money he wouldn't be Kucinich

he would be a totally different candidate

[corporatewhore]

32. Yes he has swing appeal w/oldschool conservatives

Edwards/Kerry people tout electability.yet they voted and still support the patriot act.No self respecting small gov't promoting big centralised federal gov't loathing conservative likes the patriot act.I worked hand in hand with them last summer to get an antipatriot res here in austin They are fucking pissed.If we were smart we would win them over to our side at least for this election to send a message to bush.But what do we do?move the two Pro Patriot act cannidates to the for front because they are electable and have swing appeal.

[DemBones DemBones]

34. No matter who the nominee is, if these people who hate the

PATRIOT Act can't see that there's a big difference between Bush, whose AG proposed the act, and senators who were pushed into approving it in the aftermath of 9/11, I think they are hopeless. Didn't they notice that almost everyone was suddenly turning to Bush as the leader who would save them, waving flags, and demanding retribution? I heard too many people say they'r give up some freedom to catch the evildoers.

I wish all the Dems had had Dennis Kucinich's courage and voted against the war and the PATRIOT Act. I wish more than anything that just one senator had had the courage to stand up and support the Black Caucus three years ago. If just one had done that, it's possible that Gore would be in office and none of the horrible things of the past three years would have happened.

I think that if Dennis Kucinich had been a senator, he would have stood up with the Black Caucus (I think they're all in the Progressive Caucus, too.) But there are damn few people who will put their careers on the line that way.

There are many reasons to vote against Bush, and conservatives should be able to recognize them. The man is not a traditional Republican fiscal conservative and everyone knows it. Pat Buchanan and other conservatives are complaining about Bush's deficit spending.

Bob Barr, my former congressman who's about as right wing as they get, was very upset about the PATRIOT Act and said it was just used to get some things that DOJ and FBI had been wanting for a long time. Before he ran for Congress, he was a prosecutor so I think he knowns whereof he speaks on that. The Bushistas got his district redrawn and he lost to the other Republican (the one who's never criticized Bush) and Barr is now working for the ACLU, something we'd have never seen w/o this Bushbaby in the White House.

I wish all the candidates would promise to repeal the PATRIOT Act . Why won't they? Any provisions in it that are actually needed could be enacted in a new bill, after debate in Congress.

[nomaco-10]

33. Nope, for all Dennis' good qualities.....

he is not GQ, in a catch phrase, "he is not presidential" looking. Poor Dennis did not spend his whole life trying to throw off his heritage, change his last name and pattern his entire life after the Kennedy clan right down to moving to their home state, attending their alma mater and even joining the same branch of the military. It's kind of spooky when you think about it.
Dennis is genuine when you think about it and that is what sets him apart and has lost him the nomination. sigh.....

[DemBones DemBones]

35. Hold on -- John Kerry went to Yale while John Kennedy went to

Harvard! Big difference! Changed his name? I don't think so -- probably his Jewish grandfather changed the family name, as many did, even if they weren't Jewish, trying to be more American. Moved to their home state? I know the family lived abroad because Kerry's dad was a diplomat but I think Massachusetts was their home state. Certainly Kerry was there as a teenager and dated a relative of Jackie Kennedy's, was photographed sailing with JFK and family.

You're correct that Kerry and JFK both served in the Navy and I agree that he admired and emulated JFK but I think several of your statements are incorrect.
Bill Clinton also admired, and met, JFK as a teenager, and I think Dennis Kucinich has also talked of JFK as an inspiration to him. The Kennedy years were very influential in and of themselves, and magnified by the violent deaths of JFK and RFK.

[JohnKleeb]

36. His jewish grandfather changed the name to avoid anti semtism

Yeah DK has talked about DK as a hero. Youre right DBDB.

[arewethereyet]

38. no, its obviously not the money

Dean had all he could stand and it could not undo his message.

Edwards was modest in his fundraising and is arguably the number 2 now because of message.

Either your message resonates or it doesn't.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. If he had as much $$ as Kerry and looked and talked like Edwards

no question.

[arewethereyet]

41. don't think so

Kucinich was consistantly thought to have debated well in the televised debates, I certianly feel that way. He was one of the few that could speak clearly and sucinctly and make his points.

Money follows the mood of the people. Ask Kerry if you don't believe me.

As for looks, while it doesn't hurt, it doesn't help so long as the make up is right. Ask Richard Nixon if you don't believe that.

His message did not resonate with the people.

[Cuban_Liberal]

43. No. n/t

[Mairead]

44. Yes, I don't think there's any doubt he would.

The response to DK has been, from the off, only one thing: skepticism.

Not opposition, skepticism.

It's not that people don't want what he's peddling, it's that they have too much experience of our broken system to believe he could be nominated, or if he were nominated be elected, or if he were elected convince the Congress, or if he convinced the Congress not be killed for his lese majesté.

Had he had Dean's money and that massive free press exposure that pulled Dean ahead in the crucial early months, he would be well in front today because his policies are obviously sensible and attractive and there'd have been a sense of cachet, of approval, and thus not nearly as much skepticism. It's a positive-feedback system.

In the advertising industry, there's a folksy rule that dates from the 19th c.: never try to put your whole inventory into a 2-column-inch ad. (Because the typeface will be too small to read, so your effort will be wasted) But that's what Kucinich has had to do because he's being so carefully ignored by the corporate media. He's had to try to get his whole program across each time he gets any exposure at all. That's terrifically hard to do, even if you have a Will Pitt working on it. Had he had Dean's money and exposure, he could have taken a different, more productive path. Success in advertising depends on repetition. If you have the right message, and can repeat it enough times within the window of opportunity, you win.

Why has Dean done so (comparatively) poorly so far, since he DID have Dean's money and exposure?

The only thing that seems to make any sense to me is that people picked up on the fact that he's really a status-quo candidate who's long on dynamic rhetoric but short on willingness to offer any real change. But that doesn't explain Kerry, since Kerry is also not offering any real change. Is it nothing more than Kerry packaging his rhetoric better? I don't know. But Kerry was getting beaten viciously from pillar to post, derided and insulted, for months while Dean was the darling of the pundits...and now that has been totally turned on its head. Is it MediaInc influence that's too subtle to detect? Goddess knows, I don't.

But if there's any reality at all to the whole thing, then I've no doubt at all that DK would be leading today had he been given Dean's advantages.

[The Blue Knight]

45. ^ What he said.

I think a lot of people would have a problem with Dennis' "electability," even though, if you look at his record, he's quite electable.

He's the only TRUE labor candidate in the war, he opposed the Iraqi war, and led the fight in Congress against it, and he's the only one with a solid plan to get us out of Iraq.

He's also the only candidate in the race that can bring together the Democratic and Green party.

However, I think the Repugs would attack him as soft on National Defense, and I can only imagine how'd they'd warp him wanting to cut 15% of the Pentagon's budget into "gutting the military."

I will back Kucinich until he bows out of the race, I refuse to compromise my beliefs on this false notion of "electability."

[ThirdWheelLegend]

46. Weclome to DU!

"I refuse to compromise my beliefs on this false notion of "electability.""

That right there says it.

and again Welcome!


TWL

[Mairead]

48. "wanting to cut 15% of the Pentagon's budget"

He's the ranking Dem on that subcommittee, so if anyone knows how much waste can be cut, it is he. I honestly doubt they could get him on any aspect of national defence, because he has the facts at his fingertips: we spend nearly as much as all other nations in the world yet it didn't save us on 911; the things the budget buys are hardware that --when it works!-- is great for devastating cities and killing innocent civilians, but poor for getting rid of guerrilla-type forces who are dispersed and have no bridges, power plants, rail yards, etc.; we're spending money on cosmetic guards at airports who hassle members of Congress but who are regularly proven useless against simulated bad guys; etc.

Welcome to DU!

[Zynx]

47. No, but he might be doing better.