Wes Clark an instant millionaire with no personal risk - start spinning!

[Carl Spackler]

"John Kerry may have won Iowa, but Wesley Clark cleaned up on Wall Street. On Jan. 20, just a day after the caucuses, bankers tell FORTUNE, Clark made about $1.2 million in paper profit on his investment in Messer Griesheim, when the private German maker of industrial gases agreed to sell most of its assets to rival Air Liquide. While the $3.3 billion deal went largely unnoticed in the U.S., it was the best investment Clark ever made. And it barely cost him a dime—thanks to a low-interest, "non-recourse" loan from Goldman Sachs, which insulated Clark (a Messer director since August 2001) from any personal exposure. "Was he smiling yesterday?" wondered a Goldman executive, just hours after the Euro-deal was announced. "General Clark's probably got more money than he's ever had in his life.""

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/print/0,15935,582232,00.html

[LuminousX]

1. Good for him

[Auntie Bush]

31. "Good for him", hey, that is just what I thought!

Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person.

[TexasSissy]

139. Yes, good for him! We want a winner in the WH, not like * who failed

at his own oil business, despite funding by Big Daddy.

But actually, I think Clark was already a millionaire before that, wasn't he? Didn't he get rich after he retired from the military and became an investment banker or something?

There's nothing wrong with making $$$$. That's the American dream. I know I surely want a big raise this year (although I doubt it will be forthcoming in this economy).

[SahaleArm]

2. John Kerry spent 19 years fighting for lower taxes on unearned income...

Of course none of this has anything to do with his $200-million dollars in assets, or Teresa's $500-million.

[JPJones]

3. He only made $1.2 million on a $3.3 billion deal?

While being Goldman Sachs person on the board? You're right, I can't believe he didn't make more.

Are you a Kerry guy? Kerry made $750 million in one day. The day he married TH.

[Carl Spackler]

7. No

Kucinich.

[JPJones]

11. I know it's hard to believe

but that is a really small amount of money for people on boards of directors. The only thing fair about it is when they pay their fair share of taxes.

[AP]

14. Please don't try to make this sound OK.

This is how the rich consolidate their power.

It's great that Clark is capitalizing on a lifetime in service to America. However, symbolically, this is not good for a presidential candiate.

[incapsulated]

16. But making millions

Off personal injury cases, is.

[BootinUp]

18. Oh dear

that boomerang hurt don't you know.

[AP]

19. Yes. Edwards got a % of the money he got for people who deserved it.

And he worked for that money.

And redistributing wealth like that serves a very valuable social function.

[incapsulated]

24. Sure

It's just like socialism! He's a great humanitarian to help all those poor people and for purely selfless reasons, with no personal motivation at all, nothing in it for him...

Wait...

[AP]

47. Actaully, yes. Working hard for people who need it. Helping to transfer

wealth and power to people who need it from people who have too much. Taking your cut of that and using it to defeat the Helms machine. Taking that and using it to beat Bush. That's just about the most humanitarian story I've heard in the last 30 years.

Can you think of a better one?

[incapsulated]

66. I really can't

Without dropping some acid.

When a smooth talking personal injury lawyer takes his millions to run for the Senate (hey, he's got the money, let's get some powah!), uses it as a stepping stone to run for President before his first term is even up and somehow becomes lauded as a Great Humanitarian, well...

No, I can't top that story.

[AP]

78. The Helms machine said the machines were broken in black neighborhoods.

Black people stood in line until 11pm to vote. When Helms saw that there were more people standing in line than he had over Gant, he just had the counties call the election. Those black voters stood in line for another hour.

Edwards put his money into giving THOSE people a voice. He's a hero.

[incapsulated]

85. Ok

What in the world does this have to do with anything?

Anyone would be better than Helms, period. Good for Edwards for taking him out.

But, I'm sorry, the likes of Dr. King and Jesse Jackson give "those people" a voice, not some personal injury lawyer who grabbed a Senate seat from a lunatic who's number was finally up. And what has he done for those people? He spent half his time campaigning for a position he is far too smart to believe he will get, he's running for VP. And he is not going back to the Senate to help them if he loses, mainly because he knows he wouldn't be re-elected.

[AP]

99. What does it have to do with anything? Edwards is a hero.

He made money working hard. He used his money to give people a voice. He has chosen a profession now that is much less lucrative than the one he had. His goal is to give people other than himself more. To give them the opportunities he had.

What has he done for these people now? He thinks the power of the fillibuster isn't that great and he wants to use his immense talents to be president and bring 6 democratic senators in on his coattails and REALLY change America.

That's what a real hero is.

That's the kind of hero America needs right now.

Not some guy who trades on connections to make a million, who's more a part of the problem than he is a part of the solution.

[MariaS]

110. A Hero

is someone who puts their self in harms way. How is standing in a courtroom putting ones self in danger? Clark is a hero, Kerry is hero. Edwards is a LAWYER.

[AP]

113. Read DU -- sounds like he is putting himself in harms way. Tell JFK family

and RFK family that trying to do the right thing for the poor and middle class, especially if it contradicts the wishes of super large corporations and super powerful Republicans, isn't heroic, and doesn't put you in harms way.

[Carl Spackler]

120. *test*

[MariaS]

140. Sorry

don't agree that a Lawyer is a hero. He got paid to represent those people and there for he did what he did for personal gain. There was nothing altruistic in what he did. Clark was shot four times and regardless of that fact he focused on his duty and the men under his command. At 50 yrs of age he repelled down a mountain side to try and save others. If Edwards helped unfortunate people who were damaged by large corporations receive compensation that is a good thing but it doesn't make him a hero just a good Lawyer.

[AP]

114. For emphasis: RFK, lawyer, fought against corporatocracy. Hero?

He was thinking about putting MLK on the ticket. Hero?

Yes and yes.

What did Eisenhower do that was heroic after he left the service?

[bowens43]

49. You're getting desperate.

I don't blame you. After Tuesday your candidate won't even a foot note in the 2004 election. Clark can't compete with Edwards, Kerry or Dean.

[returnable]

52. Say what?

Dean's already a footnote.

The jury is still out on everyone else. But nice try :hi:

[incapsulated]

60. lol

Some jokes just write themselves. :crazy:

[returnable]

50. You make it sound like Edwards' wealth...

...came strictly from his legal fees.

Uh, no.

A good chunk of change has come from his investments and business dealings, too.

Geez.

I can't believe folks wanna debate stock portfolios :eyes:

[maddezmom]

54. Edwards has a great portfolio

http://www.bop2004.org/bop2004/candidate.aspx?cid=9&act=details

[returnable]

56. And I'm sure he's signing over those dividend checks...

...to the poor & hungry as I type :hi:

[maddezmom]

57. check it out, it's worth a look

:)

[AP]

63. Every penny invested originally from EARNED INCOME taxed at HIGHEST

rates we tax anything other than inheritance -- and you can get out of paying taxes on inheritance by forming trusts, and you get out of receiving earned income if your employer is a corporation or you sit, ahem, on the board of a corporations, by getting paid in stocks, which you can sell a year after they vest and pay less than a third of the income in taxes which you would have paid if you were paid for working for the money.

[bearfartinthewoods]

88. and his plan would up the taxes on his 'unearned' income

while keeping the middleclass tax cuts on money people earn with their labor. really evil of him isn't it?</sarcasm>

[returnable]

126. Yep. Just like Clark's plan...

...would take a chunk out of his own personal profit while protecting the middle class as well. In fact, Clark is the only one calling for a tax HIKE on those making over a million per year. He's really evil, isn't he?

This whole discussion is laughable.

Both these guys have humble backgrounds and have worked very hard to achieve everything they have. Edwards has profited from business dealings. Clark has profited from business dealings.

What the hell is the issue here? :shrug:

[abburdlen]

68. Research shows

that some might not have deserved it.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-02/jhmi-nbi020504.php

"Medical malpractice cases frequently try to link injuries to the white matter of a newborn's brain -- a precursor to cerebral palsy and other disorders -- to the baby's delivery, though a new Johns Hopkins study demonstrates that such injuries are more closely associated with neonatal infections."

But Edwards did his job and made the better arguement to the jury



removed knowingly inflammatory comparison

[BootinUp]

*Duck*

This is getting kinda ugly y'all.

[AP]

75. If that's true, why did a jury listen to experts and decide otherwise? Why

didn't the defendant appeal?

Both sides had a chance to present expert witnesses. You think juries aren't capable of understanding experts.

If they aren't, I don't know why we should believe the reporter or each other about the truth.

I'll trust the juries who decided these cases were pretty well-informed by both sides and made reasonable rational decisions about liability.

Do you really, as a Democrats, want to criticize the jury system. I'm sure Republicans would love to undermine the legitimacy of juries, so that appointed judges could decide whether insurance companies and corporations are liable for their negligence.

[abburdlen]

76. I could argue

that the juries put more weight in the emotional appeals than the facts but more likely that the new research is NEW.

[AP]

93. All the facts were available to each side. If the jury bases their

decision on emotion rather than facts that contradic their decision, the defendant can appeal based on the argument that the wait of evidence contradicts the jury's decision.

Notice the NYT and the other papers couldn't find an example of that happening, so they use this lame-ass spin.

What the hell was Edwards supposed to do? Not make the argument about the fetal heart rate because some day there might be evidence that says it isn't connected to brain damage?

And you know what's lame about this whole line of criticism? I mean besides the fact that these arguments were available to the defense and they apparently didn't bother to make them. It's that if you read Four Trials, it's perfectly obvious that the hospital was negligent in that case.

The crux of that case was that the nurse admitted that should could tell the baby was in distress but the hospital didn't protect their jobs from retaliation from doctors, so she didn't criticize the doctors poor judgement.

As a result of this case, NC hospitals changed their procedures so that nurses who contradicted doctors' calls couldn't be the object of retaliation by the doctors or the hospitals.

They NYT are such assholes for writing that article the way they did. The book is available. They could read the damn chapter on that case.

[Carl Spackler]

100. Not channeling the baby's spirit would have been an option

[AP]

111. Good on you for buying the Republican judge's spin to reduce the award

without any good reason.

Read Four Trials if you want to know what REALLY happened in that trial and not the corporate-friendly NYT's spin.

[JPJones]

27. BAMMMMMMM

"She speaks to you through me," the lawyer went on in his closing argument. "And I have to tell you right now - I didn't plan to talk about this - right now I feel her. I feel her presence. She's inside me, and she's talking to you." The jury came back with a $6.5 million verdict in the cerebral palsy case, and Mr. Edwards established his reputation as the state's most feared plaintiff's lawyer. In the decade that followed, Mr. Edwards filed at least 20 similar lawsuits against doctors and hospitals in deliveries gone wrong, winning verdicts and settlements of more than $60 million, typically keeping about a third. "

"On the other side, insurance companies, business groups that support what they call tort reform and conservative commentators have accused Mr. Edwards of relying on questionable science in his trial work. Indeed, there is a growing medical debate over whether the changes have done more harm than good. Studies have found that the electronic fetal monitors now widely used during delivery often incorrectly signal distress, prompting many needless Caesarean deliveries, which carry the risks of major surgery. The rise in such deliveries, to about 26 percent today from 6 percent in 1970, has failed to decrease the rate of cerebral palsy, scientists say. Studies indicate that in most cases, the disorder is caused by fetal brain injury long before labor begins. "

Link

[bowens43]

45. Let's see Edwards helps people get compensation

from cooperations that have grievously wronged them , Clark bombs civilian targets to further his career. I'll take Edwards every time.

[returnable]

53. Huh?

Edwards voted for war to further his career. Edwards voted for an attack on our civil liberties to further his career.

I'll take Clark every time, thanks :hi:

[democratreformed]

58. I can't help it. I have to ask.

Unlike most lawsuit cases, is Edwards clients actually receive more compensation for their wrongs that the lawyer did? That is my problem with trying to think of this as some great and glorius deed. I have heard too many stories about people ending up with about 10% of the money and the lawyer getting the rest.

[Carl Spackler]

61. The standard compensation for the lawers is 33%

which can be pretty lucrative

[AP]

64. Which they pay taxes on at highest rates. The client pays no taxes on

their awards, by the way.

[maddezmom]

20. AP: Edwards is worth more than Clark

and you know it, please don't knock Clark for making an investment that paid off.

[Carl Spackler]

32. He did not make an investment - he got a "loan" with no payback/no risk

[Renew Deal]

37. What law did he break?

I'll be waiting patiently for the answer.

[AP]

40. This is how Bush made money to run for president, by the way.

Nice contrast.

[Renew Deal]

127. Nice to answer the question.

BTW, proof?

[AP]

131. Proof of what? That Bush rode stock options and connections into the white

house? That he's the embodiment of "it's not what you know, it's who you know"?

You didn't know that?

I'm not saying that Clark is the democratic Bush. I'm just saying that, just like Kerry's privilege and millions make him a poor vehicle for delivering the message about class that will win the elections, Clark's two years of enmeshing himself in the corporatocracy make him a poor vehicle for delivering the message about the oligigarchy that will win the election.

[Renew Deal]

136. Yeah OK

The guy lived off 50K for 30 years after growing up as the poorest kid in the richest neighborhood and had his father die at 4. Sure, he doesn't know anything about living with hardships.

Now compare him to Edwarsd who has ammased 30 million over 20 years by telling the story of the highest bidder. They both have interesting stories in their youth, but Edwards is loaded and has been for a while. Are you telling me he hasn't played the stock market?

[JPJones]

44. You're right, it wasn't an invesment

It was compensation for his work on the board. Clark would have had to put up a lot of money to buy the stock, but then he would turn around and sell them, so it is almost zero risk. Goldman was grateful for his service so they put up the money for him. It was almost no risk for them, just additional compensation.

There was risk, though. His could have done the work and the options might not have been worth anything.

Would you like Clark better if he lived in a car?

[AP]

73. What "work" do you think Clark did on that board?

Is trading influence and connections work?

[OKNancy]

77. Try harder

A former partner at the firm said that Clark, in interviews with top executives, demonstrated an impressive knowledge of Eastern Europe. As a result, Goldman Sachs turned to him for advice in August 2001 after joining with other investors to acquire majority ownership in Messer Griesheim, a German firm that makes industrial gases at plants throughout Europe.

Goldman Sachs hired Clark as a consultant and appointed him, with two of its executives, to Messer's board. Clark toured some of the company's operations, reporting back on management practices and staff morale. "He was a terrific contributor," said Barry Volpert, who ran Goldman Sachs's private equity operations for Europe.
--

From the article in post 71

[Carl Spackler]

82. Nice work, if you can get it.

I suspect having an influential political career helps "get it".

[OKNancy]

87. No, being really really smart and

knowledgable got it. Even after all Clark's intellectual achievements he takes and passes the test to become a licensed investment banker at age 50 - something. He's traveled the world, he's heavy into technology, he is an assest to any firm.

[mikehiggins]

97. Political career? I thought Clark had no political career?

Can't you guys get your stories straight?

[AP]

83. LMAO. I doubt Clark brought anything

more than any one of dozens of other people could have brought in terms of, um, assessing morale and understanding geo-politics. What he DID bring that any 25 year old Heidelberg business school graduate couldn't bring was CONNECTIONS.

[BootinUp]

90. Can your argument be any more conspiratorial and without facts?

I don't think so.

Apparently you don't think Clark has learned much since he left school. Others would disagree with you. All of us have connections. It is what we do with them that matters.

[Carl Spackler]

92. And renting ones connections makes the most cents - and dollars!

[BootinUp]

103. Thanks for that, I just want to add something else

Clark has posted/released all of his personal financial records for you to review. You are free to read them and spin them into the biggest conspiracy story this side of UFO's if you like.

I remind you once again, that Clark has resigned from all the boards. He gave up the chance to make a great living, and instead to catch all the shit you are hurling at him. Have fun.

[AP]

104. Are you serioulsy arguing that corporate boards are used today for some-

thing other than rewarding insiders?

These corporations don't even really have to compete with each other to make money. They barely care about knowledge.

They mostly care about buying off politicians who will legislate profits for them.

[BootinUp]

116. I will make it if you want me to

The question is, who do you trust and why? Obviously not every board member in America is as worthless as you suggest. Sure there are plenty of worthless ones. Like the majority of the board members whose decisions destroyed a company I spent 15 years helping to build.

But how do YOU know which ones are worthless leaches and which ones aren't. And if you come back and say they all are leaches, corrupt, scum of the earth, then I will happily end this conversation now.

Clark could have made a hell of lot more money in his life than he did. Will you please explain to my why he chose the path of a lifetime military officer? You seem to know what he thinks, please explain this to me. And then why did he decide to give up these lucrative insider deals to run for office?

[AP]

118. I'm not arguing Clark is bad. I'm arguing that the system is bad, and that

there's a better candidate running this year who hasn't been mixed up in a bad system.

It's really too bad that Clark didn't decide to run earlier and then go teach for two years before running for president. He would have foregone the money, but, had he really cared about beating Bush, he would have created a persona that would contrast better.

[BootinUp]

124. You and I certainly tend to see stuff different

But I still enjoy having discussions with you.

Your main argument against Clark is that he was on a board of directors for 2 years after spending a lifetime earning a very meager living, moving his family 30 times, not being there when his son was born and many other sacrifices he didn't have to make.

I will be reading the NYTIMES article about Edwards career as an attorney. Then I will be happy to discuss this further if you like.

cheers

[AP]

128. My main argument: not enough contrast to what's really going wrong with

America.

The corporate board, trading on connections, lobbying, working for CNN at a time when America desperately needed the truth -- he interpolated himself too much into what is going wrong with America right now. It really is too bad that he didn't behave slightly differently since leaving the service.

I know officers in the military who don't have very meagher living. Clark rose way higher than any of the officers I know, so I'm going to say it's probably an exaggeration to say that his life has been too tough for the last 10 or 15 years. Because almost everyone starts at the same place in the army, I totally accept that the beginning was very different from the end of his career. (Also, I should note, none of the officers I've met in my life were so high up that they could get Goldman Sachs to help them out with a loan to buy stocks in a company on which they were on the board -- which suggests the scale of difference here.)

As for the NYT article -- it's total crap. Edwards is a direct threat to the corporatocracy, and that article goes out of its way to be ignorant about what really happened in those cases.

[OKNancy]

95. You beat everything you know it Barney

I got an idea...don't vote for Clark. I already have. I used to like Edwards, but........

[AP]

102. Are you saying I shoud be quet or else I'll drive people away from Edwards

I'm not responsible to Edwards. I'm saying the facts. Mostly I'm defending Edwards and explaining why Clark isn't the perfect candidate. Nothing I'm saying is a lie.

[OKNancy]

112. There are ways to support your candidate without

making up gross exaggerations. I have never said one word bad about Edwards. Hell, my dad was a trial lawyer. He mostly defended shoplifters (food) and marijuana smokers, therefore he didn't make a lot of money.

You aren't defending Edwards with these posts, you are making up stuff about Clark and speculating..nothing more.

[AP]

115. I'm barely addressing Clark personally. I'm criticizing the corporatocracy

intensely and I'm defending Edwards.

Show me one gross exaggeration about Clark. Show me one speculation or invention.

The fact is, I've barely said a damn thing about Clark. I've criticized the SYSTEM. However, clearly a lot of Clark supporters are so afraid that his persona is so entwined with the system, they're seeing it as an attack on Clark.

That is very telling.

[OKNancy]

123. Post 73 and 83

Clark is a brilliant man and I sure he would be wanted by many, many businesses.

[AP]

129. ...wanted mostly for his connections, I'm sure.

Defense companies make money by convincing politicians to spend other people money (yours and mine) on weapons and shit that probably will never ever get used.

They don't need an brilliance greater than a brilliant rolodex and the power of influence.

I'm not saying Clark isn't brilliant, but I'm not going to lie to myself about what those corporations really wanted from him.

Folks, this is what were FIGHTING in this election. Lets not make excuses for it.

[returnable]

137. Super. Get back to us when Edwards divests himself...

...from his holdings. Thanks :hi:

[mikehiggins]

101. Ahh, grasshopper. You are approaching true enlightenment

Contacts and connections are the main resource of the mature individual. The 25 year old MBA from Heidelberg probably knows that much better than anyone else, and is in a hurry to make his own contacts and connections.

Hell, he'd jump at a chance to meet and work for Wes Clark.

That's how the world we like to call "real" works, dude.

[AP]

Yeah. Go run against Bush on THAT message. It's not what you know...

...it's who you know.

And you can trace Bush's bailout by the Harvard Fund of his failing oil company, his participation with that dumb baseball team, and his presidency to that same mantra.

[BootinUp]

79. Have you noticed yet

that Clark gave all this up to run for office? Not much different than your guy. We all need to chill and do a little more research before we go for the jugular around here.

[AP]

84. Maybe he'll go back to doing this after he's done

running for office?

[mikehiggins]

107. According to Clark, he's going to try and get a teaching gig

at a University, make speeches and end up a golf pro.

Don't laugh. Lucas Black, a kid actor (now grown up I guess) used to say that his lifetime ambition was to become a bass fisherman. Figured to use the money he made in movies and tv(he played the kid in Slingblade and the Sheriff's son in American Gothic) to do it.

You never know what's really in someone's heart until they show you.

Clark is an authentic individual. Maybe that's why he isn't prospering as a politician.

[bearfartinthewoods]

98. was t5his during his lobbyist phase?

[maddezmom]

125. yes, in 2001 Clark was a retired General and registered Lobbyist

but I'm sure you knew that little bit of news.

[Jerseycoa]

132. Not exactly, mom

He lobbied out of concern for the nation for four months after 9/11 before taking the job. They know this, too.

[AP]

36. Edwards worked for every dollar he got. Why was Clark on that board?

Was it his reputation for running businesses?

[JPJones]

46. Is this work? Or scary?

Link

"She speaks to you through me," the lawyer went on in his closing argument. "And I have to tell you right now - I didn't plan to talk about this - right now I feel her. I feel her presence. She's inside me, and she's talking to you." The jury came back with a $6.5 million verdict in the cerebral palsy case, and Mr. Edwards established his reputation as the state's most feared plaintiff's lawyer. In the decade that followed, Mr. Edwards filed at least 20 similar lawsuits against doctors and hospitals in deliveries gone wrong, winning verdicts and settlements of more than $60 million, typically keeping about a third."

"On the other side, insurance companies, business groups that support what they call tort reform and conservative commentators have accused Mr. Edwards of relying on questionable science in his trial work. Indeed, there is a growing medical debate over whether the changes have done more harm than good. Studies have found that the electronic fetal monitors now widely used during delivery often incorrectly signal distress, prompting many needless Caesarean deliveries, which carry the risks of major surgery. The rise in such deliveries, to about 26 percent today from 6 percent in 1970, has failed to decrease the rate of cerebral palsy, scientists say. Studies indicate that in most cases, the disorder is caused by fetal brain injury long before labor begins."

[AP]

67. That's actually how I feel about his candidacy. He's speaking for me.

Which is the point he was trying to make in that argument.

The Republican/corporate-friendly judge reduced the award on the lame pretense that that argument was inappropriate. It wasn't. But that's how Republicans protect corporations and hurt people injured by corporations.

If Edwards's expert evidence about the babies heart activity wasn't accurate, then why didn't the wealthy company and their great lawyers defending them put the New York Stupid Fucking Times's expert who provided them that information on the stand and tell the jury?

They had every opportunity. It's so lame that the NY Times pretends that Edwards used bad evidence. The trial was place to make the argument and that hospital's insurance company tried and failed.

[Carl Spackler]

72. because the jury was clearly more swayed by emotional manipulation

Edwards is no fool - if the jury was interested in the medical facts he wouldn't have done the hallmark channel closing argument. Edwards specialty was winning big settlements from oby/gyn doctors and hospitals by blaming them for cereberal palsy. He was very, very good at it. Them are the facts of the modern civil justice system.

[AP]

80. You're criticizing the American judicial system and juries? Now I've heard

it all, now.

OJ won because he had way more resources than the state.

Edwards was in a fair battle with extremely well-funded large corporations with excellent lawyers. (Actually, Edwards was the little guy for the first couple suits, but was an equal competitior with the rest.)

Anything you say to criticize Edwards's legal arguments were available to the defendant's lawyers who had every resource and MORE at their disposal. Those arguments failed.

[LandOLincoln]

135. I work with ob/gyns and I'm sorry to say Edwards has a very

bad reputation with them. (Sorry because I like him a lot; he's my second choice & I've been thinking about a Clark/Edwards ticket since October at least.)

I should also specify that is a university department in the second poorest state in the country, and every last one of these docs could be cleaning up in private practice in wealthier states.

They are not quacks, they are conscientious and dedicated professionals who regularly do outreach clinics in the far corners of the state--including Gallup, where the patient load is heavily Navajo and Zuni.

No one is getting rich here, in other words, and they all blame trial lawyers like Edwards for the astronomical rise in malpractice insurance rates, money that could and should be spent on updating facilities and on improved patient care.

I guess my point is, John Edwards is no knight in shining armor, and he's far more a part of the corrupt system you all are railing against than Wes Clark is--and by the way, Clark is said to have mortified the more pompous of the business types in Little Rock by insisting for some time on tooling around town in a beat-up old Volvo wagon.

Finally, I saw Gert Clark on C-Span the other morning, talking about the effect the tanking economy is having on her own family. She listed several close relatives who had recently lost their jobs (including her brother, the owner of the notorious Argyle of Sweatergate fame). She said it was fortunate her husband had done relatively well since leaving the Army because that made it possible for them to help out financially.

Damn that Wes! He's sure some corporate fat cat, isn't he?

[OKNancy]

81. Try even harder

see above post and read the Washington post article before you start shooting off your...fingers.

[AP]

117. I'd love to read the article.

What's the link?

[OKNancy]

121. Post 71 as I said above

[Renew Deal]

26. You support a guy

who lies for a living. Edwards goes into court and defends whoever will pay him more.

[AP]

39. Juries disagree. Which of Edwards's clients lied (by the way, lawyers dont

testify. They argue the law.)

[Renew Deal]

138. They argue the law to their advantage.

Lawyers will say whatever the person paying wants them to say. They will defend anyone for the right price.

[Qutzupalotl]

4. Then he'll be increasing his own taxes if elected.

Check out his tax plan. I have no problems with him investing sucessfully.

[Tweed]

5. General Clark's probably got more money then he's ever had in his life

Wow, you proved Clark supporters point. Clark is a simple man that knows how most of America works. Kerry and Edwards have been millionares for quite some time now. Go Clark Go!

[BeyondGeography]

6. Clark made well under $100k/yr. for most of his 34 yrs in the Army

How many guys do you know who graduated first in their class at a top-flight university and became a Rhodes Scholar made that kind of financial sacrifice in order to serve their country?

Not only that, he's torched George Bush to the point where he'll never make a dime lobbying a Republican Administration again. His reward: Being called a Republican lobbyist by his Democratic opponents.

Start spinning.

[AP]

15. including value of perqs (cars and housing) he probably did pretty well.

[LandOLincoln]

89. Perks? Cars? Housing? You would think so, wouldn't you?

But you would be wrong. Just talk to Wes Jr. sometime. He doesn't seem to think their life was so cushy:

"We sacrificed a hell of a lot for this country over 34 years. We lived in a damn trailer when I was a freshman in high school."

http://slate.msn.com/id/2094860/

[AP]

122. All well and good, and I'm totally impressed by Wes Jr. I saw hims speak

and I think he has a great grasp on the Democratic project (perhaps because he lived in a trailer). However, I'm going to guess that he hasn't been living at home the last 12 years when his father really started to do well.

And you know that all those millions his father is making now will someday be Wes Jr's.

[LandOLincoln]

141. The last 12 years?? Clark left the Army in 2000.

Any perks and privileges he might have got in the last few years of his Army service (and most of them came with his position as SACEUR) ended when he retired.

His current net worth, as revealed in the financial records he opened to public view in New Hampshire, is all of $2 million, IIRC.

When Gert Clark was here last month she came by Clark headquarters and shot the breeze with the volunteers for an hour or so. It was at the height of Sweatergate and she mentioned sending Wes a couple of his own sweaters from home. She added that she'd been flying home to Little Rock every couple of weeks to "pay bills, do laundry, pick up dry cleaning, drop off dry cleaning..." etc.

One of us expressed surprise that she didn't have someone to do that for her (meaning a housekeeper or secretary). Gert said they'd had a staff for awhile after he got his 4th star, but it had all ended with his retirement and they were back to doing their own schlepping (my word, not hers).

[Auntie Bush]

48. Actually that should have said well under $50,000

[AP]

69. He made over 90K his last couple years, and he would have gotten

thousands of dollars in perqs, like the MB his wife drove to the golf course which was stolen, and the housing.

[Carl Spackler]

74. Someone stole the damn golf course??

[mikehiggins]

94. No, silly, The Mercedes Benz, which is part of the infrastructure of

the NATO commander's position. Sort of like the bulletproof limos George gets driven around in.

Of course, it did take Clark 30 years to reach that point but we can just forget about all the crappy pay and poor living conditions up to that point because it makes a good story for his opponents.

I find it amazing how much of the Drudge Sludge ends up on DU. Wouldn't you think progressives would have better sources?

[Auntie Bush]

108. Read your own heading

YOU said that he made that MOST of his 34 years. Pardon me but he only made that much in his last few years an didn't become a millionaire till AFTER he retired. Did you read his financial disclosure? He and his family made diddle-squat most of his life in the military. You make it sound like he lived high on the hog throughout his career. Thank God...he now can make millions and I hope he does...he earned every nickle of it doing his patriotic duty.
He could have gotten out of the Army years ago and earned millions. Please give credit where credit is due.

[incapsulated]

8. And about time, too

What was he making at the time he retired, something like 90K?

[maddezmom]

9. Clark, Dean, Kerry and Edwards are millionaires

however some have many more millions than others. :)

[AP]

17. Some earned it by working for it. Others got gifts, inheritance and con-

nections.

[maddezmom]

25. is there anywhere I can search for Edwards' portfolio? n/t

[abburdlen]

29. Of course

I'm certain each of our Democratic candidates have made their records availible for the world to see.







Oh. I guess not.

[maddezmom]

42. here's one link:

http://www.bop2004.org/bop2004/candidate.aspx?cid=9&act=pfin

But on a side note, it's hard to compare against Clark because his info isn't there. But it is on his site:
http://www.clark04.com/readingroom/financial/public_financial_disclosure/index.php?page=pf001

[maddezmom]

91. don't knock folks that get money from trust funds

they are donors and will eventually have to vote for the nominee! :)

[AP]

109. I'll concede the Trust Fund Baby vote.

:)

[returnable]

10. Sweet!

The man knows the marketplace.

If he starts cutting tax deals for Goldman Sachs after he's elected, you'd have something.

Until then, Clark just made a bundle through legitimate business dealings. That's how our economy works.

Good for him :toast:

[Carl Spackler]

12. I must admit you guys are good

If this had been Dick Cheney or Laura Bush or any "repuke" of course this would be of the devil.

I think politics here is like team sports - root, root, root for the home team...

Vote for someone who have demonstrated that they live by their principles: DK

[BootinUp]

21. Besides making a wise investment

What exactly bothers you about this story?

[Carl Spackler]

35. Read the article - he made no investment at all

He just got a $1.2 million dollar payoff.

[BootinUp]

43. So as I understand it

That was part of his pay/incentive package. You disagree?

This is not any different than getting stock options. I got stock options once. BFD

[Renew Deal]

23. That's just lame.

That's like the old Chris Rock joke. N___az like to keep it real; real dumb.

You are pissed at Clark for making money. Then you say people should vote for Kucinich because he is not making money. Sure, people should work all their lives to stay poor. Why try to advance themselves when they can live like hobbits?

[Carl Spackler]

28. I'm pissed at Clark

for being so transparently opportunistic that he does a backroom deal like this during the election cycle, that he waltzes into the race after registering as a Democrat at 7-11 on the way to the news conference, that he shifts from praising the war and GWB.

[incapsulated]

33. In order to be "pissed" at Clark

You would actually need to have liked him at some point, no?

[Renew Deal]

34. Well then you are pissed for no reason.

Backroom Deal? Are you implying something illegal happened? Who cares if it's during the election process. How much is he being paid to run for president? The man has to make a living. And you can't tell me you wouldn't do the same thing.

he registered as a dem late, but he displayed his democratic principles several times before he ran. He voted for Clinton twice and Gore. He announced he was a Dem on CNN. He defended liberalism on Bill Mahr's show. And he is better on the issues than most candidates.

He never praised the war. He never thought the war was a good idea. He did say that some military actions were done well, but he was never for the war. But that's OK. Keep supporting DK who wants to take your right to chose away in his heart.

[Joe the Revelator]

38. Did you just fit every RNC Clark talking point...

in one paragraph? good god.

[Julien Sorel]

41. Why we lose.

Making money is evil. Anyone who makes money is evil. Nevermind that the vast majority of Americans dream of getting rich, and by attacking people who do well, you are demonstrating just how incredibly out of touch with the mainstream you are. In America today, class warfare is a fool's game -- that's the reality.

The far left of this country is more out of touch with the mainstream than the far right.

[BootinUp]

51. there is *some* truth to that

It has to do with the conspiracy theory mentality. And there is some of that on both sides of the pol spectrum. Its just that we tend to have a few more.

[Julien Sorel]

59. No, it's that ours are more paranoid, arrogant, and stupid.

[returnable]

55. Oh, boy

Clark is fairly compensated for his role on a company's board, and he's evil.

Kucinich bankrupts the city of Cleveland, and he's a genius.

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up :hi:

[in_cog_ni_to]

13. Well,

considering just 17 short years ago he and his family were living in a trailer and living on $50,000 a year, I'd say he's damned deserving of that money. There's nothing wrong with making a good investment.

Go Wes!

[democratreformed]

22. How about this one

He was actually a millionaire before yesterday. If you look at his financial statements, he was a millionaire last year.

[mmonk]

30. wow

so issue driven.

[mikehiggins]

62. Congratulations! The Fortune smear found at least one set of ears.

You did sort of miss the boat however. The original article was a smear designed to hurt Clark's chances on Feb 3. Somebody got wind of it and so another national publication ran the story first, including the fact that nothing in the deal was illegal, unethical or out of the ordinary.

That being said, the Fortune article went largely unnoticed until you brought it up today to join in the attempt to make something look crooked and illegal that was neither.

As to registering at the 7/11 on the way to his press conference, Clark actually registered democratic in 2002, a fact that has been attested to by actual registration records reproduced here and elsewhere.

Congratulations for jumping in on the smear train. Next time try to keep up to date, though. The rumor du jour is that Clark is out of money and stiffing his staff for their pay. Also, he's dropping out after Maine. Also, he's been seen talking with the National Star's space alien on checkout counter racks.

[OKNancy]

71. And here it is

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58300-2004Jan28.html

---
This article goes into detail about Clark after the Army. I'm sure there will be fodder for Clark-haters, but all told it's a pretty good article.

I enjoyed these comments:

Also, unlike many other retiring senior military officers, Clark did not immediately go to work for a large defense contractor; instead, he preferred smaller firms specializing in technology
----
Clark also served as a consultant to the wireless technology firm Time Domain, in which he holds a small stake that currently has no value. Ralph Petroff, the firm's chief executive, said Clark was valuable as an adviser not only on possible military products but also on products for the commercial market.

"He was one of the first buyers of the Apple Newton," one of the first personal digital assistants, Petroff said. "The guy is really into new technology. . . . He was able to predict better than many industry analysts the deployment of wireless networks in the commercial world."

[mikehiggins]

86. Thank you, OKNancy. We aren't afraid of the truth, even if it is not

as abso-positive-lutely wonderful as we might like.

Clark is a human being, with flaws and blemishes, just like the folks next door. What grates is a major magazine like Fortune smearing him with something that has to be heads and shoulders more ethical than most of the activities their "500" engage in.

I sent them a letter asking them how many people from the last few years 500 list are now under investigation or indictment and not at all mentioned in their pages.

The original smear was a hit-job and most likely, considering the source, originated with the RNC.

[Tom Rinaldo]

65. How many of you, like me, had radical friends playing the market in 1999?

Wait a minute, better count myself too. I had a business related friend add me to the list of people issued EPNY IPO shares at original issue price. I had to borrow money from a friend to buy them though, so I didn't get them with my own money.

I have one life long full time anti war activist friend pouring every cent he could raise into venture capital shares of a small company he was turned on to. It didn't work out as it turned out, but my friend figured he could fund a good chunk of the movement with the profits he was hoping to make off of it.

[jpgpenn]

70. After 34 years of devoting his life to our country.....

and making under 100,000 dollars for all of his career, it's about time Clark has had some compensation!

This is a man of such intellect and and understanding yet he chose to make nothing his entire career. all in the name of making our country a better place!

Go Clark and Congrats!!!!:yourock:

[Uzybone]

96. Much ado about nothing

Clark made some money on Wall street....well damn...send his ass to the brig now! Gimme a break.

[Carl Spackler]

105. This is like tying 2 cats tails together - but where's the Kerry group?

Clark and Edwards folks scrapping for the moral high ground. What fun!

[Carl Spackler]

106. Oh, also goodbye

I imagine I'll be banned for life now.

[Auntie Bush]

119. And good riddance and don't let the door hit you on the way out!

[maddezmom]

133. banned? for what? n/t

[Jerseycoa]

130. This man served his country for 34 years

For 30 of them he earned less than $50,000/year. His family lived in a trailer in the desert, for chrissake. He made over $100,000/year for a few years before retirement, and a few million aggregate from speaking, writing, investments, commentary, and lobbying on national security/privacy issues. Had he gone into private industry or personal injury law, instead of staying in public service, he is likely to have earned $50 million, too. How dare anybody question his earning real money for three years out of his entire life. He took four bullets for this country and don't anybody forget it. :thumbsdown:

[HoosierClarkie]

134. with no personal risk?

I thought he risked his personal life for many many years!

Geesh.

[MoonRiver]

142. And your point is.........................................................

:wtf: