Why I think it is a honest mistake to vote for Kerry

[Clem]

Note: Yes, I may look new, but I'm a long time lurker here on DU

As many of you know, Kerry is the current frontrunner. Why - I still don't understand.

I view Kerry as a elitist, and it is important to know this. When the IWR was gearing up for a vote, a lot of Massachusetts constitutents has flooded the phone banks, faxes, e-mails, and mailboxes asking that Kerry NOT vote for the IWR. It should have sent a clear and convincing message that Kerry should have not voted for the IWR, but Kerry did it anyway, ignoring thousands and thousands of angry MA folks who were anti-war. It should have been a no vote, and Kerry didn't have to flip-flop once he saw that the Iraq war was going badly. Yes, Saddam was caught. But what else is new? There's still the quagmire and the guerilla war in Iraq that was not "supposed to exist" but still does. Over 500 Americans have been classified as "KIA" since Bush's "Mission Accomplished" speech, not counting countless of Iraqi civilians who had nothing to do with Mr. Hussein.

Then something came up on Wednesday when the MA Supreme Court handed down their decision on gay marriage -- allowing gay marriage to happen, but Kerry made a huge mistake - "I believe the right answer is civil unions. I oppose gay marriage and disagree with the Massachusetts court's decision." (Source: Boston Globe) - shows that he doesn't give a damn about gay couples and also, more importantly, he ignores the equality rights under the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Let's analyze what Dean has said regarding MA Supreme Court's decision: "I believe firmly that we must do everything in our power to assure that all citizens of the United States are afforded equal rights under the law -- and that includes gay as well as straight couples. As Governor of Vermont, I was proud to sign the nation's first law establishing civil unions for same-sex couples. Today's decision by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court represents a different approach to the same goal. One way or another, states should afford same-sex couples equal treatment under law in areas such as health insurance, hospital visitation and inheritance rights. Some in Washington will use this decision to justify the proposed Federal Marriage Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. This would be the first constitutional amendment to authorize discrimination, and I oppose it. Marriage is a matter of state law, and gay bashing has no place in the Constitution" -- Dean is correct. He not only recogizes the need for civil unions and avoids the loaded term of "gay marriage", he also recognizes the need for equality under federal law, as well as leaving the choice of whether or not to enact gay marriage for each state, like leaving the gun controls laws up to the states, which Dean is also right. Also, back to gay marriage, I do believe that Kerry has not only voted once, but twice on Defense of Marriage Act (which is also anti-gay) which is unconstitutional, overriding Clinton's presidential veto.

You explain to me, why Kerry is the frontrunner, when he co-opts other candidates' message and tries to look presidential when he clearly can't do everything by himself, so he steals other people's messages.

You tell me why *you* support Kerry based on this.

Clem

[nickinSTL]

1. DoMA

I'm pretty sure that Kerry opposed the Defense of Marriage Act.

In fact, he was one of the few Senators who did.

I think his stance on gay marriage is unfortunate, but a h*&& of a lot better than Bush. I also think that civil unions are a lot more likely to get federal level approval at this time. Not that that justifies opposing gay marriage, but it makes it easier for me to stomach.

As for the IWR. I think Kerry's vote on it was a mistake. But, there are enough other issues on which I agree with Kerry, that I'll accept that he made a mistake.

[cjbuchanan]

2. might want to edit your post

and close the Boston Globe link.

[XanaDUer]

3. Link overload.

eom.

[lancdem]

4. People copy other people's messages all the time

That's what happens in politics. It's been around forever. I find Kerry and Clark much stronger on security issues, being veterans, than Dean, which is why I think either would be better suited to face Bush. Dean can't exploit Bush's service controversy the way Kerry can, for instance.

[johnlal]

9. That issue was around last time...

We exploited the issue of Bush's service record, and it fell flat in 2000. Hopefully, it can get more traction this time around. Also, Bush's DUI, Cheney's DUIs, Bush's Drug use, Bush's diminished intellect, the Nazi connection, and the rest. Hopefully, all of that can be used productively this time around. However, I think that Kerry, coming from the DLC, is going to be a "Republican Lite" vote. The faction of voters further to the left is going to feel slighted again.

[blm]

34. Kerry was the furthest left of the DLC.

Be thankful he was there pulling leftward while centrists and corporatists like Dean were pulling the party further right.

[Virgil]

5. We have systemic problems

People live in the age of a pill where they think one simple act will fix it all. It is not that simple. The country has been taken over by the concentrations of wealth. I see it much like the Greek Hydra thing where you chop of its head and two grow back. It is only different in that the American Hydra has two heads to start with and when you chop one off, it keeps on going and then it pulls a spare head out of its belly to replace the one that got chopped off.

[Stevendsmith]

6. So for Whom do We Vote?

Bush?

I am bitting my tongue right now.

[Virgil]

8. Kucinich first, or Dean or Clark, but not a Senator n/t

Also NRA, Never Re-elect anybody. This is especially true for Congress as the gerrymandering fools need to be completely replaced. That will be a hard thing to do.

[blm]

7. YOUR premise is wrong. YOUR view is inaccurate.

Why would I base who I support on an inaccurate reading such as the one given by you in your post?

Only someone who is completely oblivious to Kerry's lengthy record and statements and efforts of the last 35 years would think that Kerry adopted ANY issue from any of the other candidates.

Maybe you and others just weren't LISTENING to Kerry over the last two years.

Kerry has ALWAYS been on the liberal, progressive left for 35 years and Dean JUST moved left last year for this campaign. Dean is the one who had to coopt from others.

[Clem]

13. So based on your views

You think Kerry is perfect?

Please assert me with your factual belief. Show me a key piece of legislation that Kerry has put his name on as a sponsor (not a co-sponsor).

[blm]

15. YOU are the one claiming Kerry stole his positions from others.

You are the one who claims Kerry STOLE the ideas and positions of others.

You prove it and try using the positions of the candidates that they held before and during 2002. See who had to MOVE left in 2003 and coopted the positions and policies of those who were already there.

[blm]

32. HEY CLEM...No reply? How about an honest answer here?

.

[GumboYaYa]

37. Okay, here are a few that are important to me.....

Patriot Act - Kerry for, Dean against...now Kerry wants to be against it.

No Child Left Behind - Kerry Voted yes, Dean criticized from the start. NCLB is an abysmal failure.

IWR - Kerry for, Dean against, now Kerry wants to say he was misled. That's hard for me to believe for reasons I have already stated in this thread.

Bush Tax cuts - Kerry voted for them once and did not vote the second time (true political cowardice in my book), Dean opposed them.

[blm]

40. You're wrong. Dean SUGGESTED a Patriot Act just days after 9-11 using

language eerily similar to Bush's "They hate us for our freedoms" speech.

NCLB - Kerry voted for the Kennedy bill and now criticizes those parts of it that are not working and were never funded.

IWR - not much different than Biden-Lugar use of force bill which Dean said he would have voted for, then lied and said he always opposed war.

Kerry did NOT vote for the massive Bush taxcuts in 2001 OR 2003.

There was a smaller taxcut in 2002 that the GOP attached to a bill that extended unemployment benefits. There was no way to pass the extension without allowing the tax breaks.


I also asked the poster to support his claim that Kerry stole his positions from Dean. Considering that Kerry is a longtime liberal and Dean is a longtime centrist, I'd like to see how Kerry stole his left positions from Dean, if it was Dean that shifted left in 2003.

[GumboYaYa]

42. I'll take these one at a time.

If you recall, at the time of Biden-Lugar, Hans Blix was indicating that the Iraqis were actively participating in the inspections and he expected to resolve the outstanding issues with their participation. Bush could not wait the extra thirty days because if Iraq complied it would remove his pretense for a war he had set his mind to long before. Biden-Lugar would most likely have avoided war and confirmed that Saddam was disarmed, without any dead Americans or Iraqis. To say support for Biden-Lugar is the same as voting for the IWR completely rewrites history.

The question I have is how anyone can believe that Kerry was misled into his support for the war. I wasn't misled and I had only a fraction of the resources available to me that he had as a member of Congress. Most people here know that the IAEA called the Niger documents forgeries BEFORE we went to war. Where were Kerry and Edwards on that one. To me it is a lie of omission not to present these facts before the war and it is a lie committed by Bush and everyone else who voted for the IWR. We also know that the IAEA had said that there was no evidence of active nuclear programs in Iraq BEFORE the war. We also know that the so-called evidence of chemical weapons was based on defector testimony and that the President and Congress failed to mention that the same defector also said Saddam had destroyed those weapons. Again we knew this BEFORE the war. It is completely unfathomable for me how Kerry did not know these things and I did. I remember a few brave souls who pointed out the lack of any true evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Howard Dean was one. Another was Robert Byrd.

I simply do not buy the "we were mislead line." IMO the Dems who voted for IWR are just as guilty for this war as are the Repubs. Saying, supporting Biden-Lugar was tantamount to supporting the war completely ignores the facts. In fact supporting Biden-Lugar was a means to try to avoid the war. It looks to me like it is Senator Kerry who is the "Liar" as you have asserted about others.

[blm]

47. But Biden-Lugar had nothing different from IWR to prevent the war

and the reason Dean lied about it is because he somehow claimed his was the antiwar position while IWR was the prowar position.

Name one difference in Biden-Lugar that qualifies it as the antiwar position.

The antiwar legislators were against B-L, too.

[GumboYaYa]

51. I already did.

The thirty day wait would have avoided war. Blix was reporting active participation by the Iraqis after the last attempt to get a UN reolution to authorize war. Blix said he expectedto resolve the non-compliance with 1441 within the thirty days given the Iraqis new level of participation. Bush could not wait the thirty days because he knew that if the Iraqis complied with 1441 he would be out of a reason for war. Biden-Lugar was the pragmatic way to avoid war and also assure compliance with 1441 based on the facts at the time.

[blm]

57. There was no 30 day wait in B-L. That 30 day wait was something Dean

threw out on his own months later.

IWR included most of B-L's provisions except the one requiring Bush to send a note to the Speaker of the House and the Pres pro tem of the Senate with his determination that force was needed.

How would that note have stopped the war from proceeding?

[GumboYaYa]

60. Biden-Lugar required us to exhaust our options with our allies.

When we went to the UN to get a resolution authorizing the invasion, 9 of the members of the UN Security Counsel asked for an additional thirty days. Under Biden-Lugar, Bush would have been required to wait the thirty days to invade. As I pointed out earlier, waiting the thirty days would have removed the basis for war.

[blm]

65. So did IWR.

Bush did not implement it honestly. War was supposed to be last resort after he went to the UN and after the weapons inspections.

[GumboYaYa]

43. Kerry flip-flops on taxes:

December, 2002 - Senator John Kerry supports ending the double taxation of dividends: "o encourage investments in the jobs of the future - I think we should excite the capital markets by eliminating the tax on capital gains for investments in critical technology companies - zero capital gains on $100 million issuance of stock if it’s held for 5 years and has created real jobs. And we should encourage the measurement of the real value of companies by ending the double taxation of dividends.” (Senator John Kerry, Remarks At The City Club Of Cleveland, 12/3/02)

"Kerry also reiterated his opposition to the Republican plan to cut taxes on stock dividends. 'This is not the time for a dividends tax cut that goes to individuals,' he said." ("Kerry Says Time Is On Dems' Side," The Associated Press, 5/8/03)

Notice the dates here. Hmmmm, what happened between those two dates.

[blm]

50. You said he voted for the 2001 taxcut. He did NOT.

You did not prove he did, did you?

On your deflecting issue I would say what happened was Kerry had been meeting with Clinton's economic team and they crafted a more comprehensive economic and tax policy. He was meeting with them regularly throughout much of last year.

[GumboYaYa]

53. I most certainly did not say that.

Besides, you asked for examples of Kerry moving to the left and adopting the positions of others. There its is. Prove me wrong!

[GumboYaYa]

44. NCLB - Kerry voted for the Kennedy bill and now criticizes those parts of

it that are not working and were never funded.

That really says it all and proves the point you are trying so vigorously to disprove. You really have zero ground to stand on for this one. There are shades of grey in other areas, but this one is black and white IMO.

As the son of a life-long teacher, this issue is a really big one with me.

[blm]

52. NCLB will likely be completely overhauled in a Kerry administration

and reflect a fully progressive approach unrestrained by a Republican hand.

[GumboYaYa]

54. LOL, "likely be completely overhauled"

We wouldn't need to overhaul it if we had never passed it. I want foresight in my leader not hindsight. Explain that position to the kids whose schools get shut-down this year.

Besides, we are discussing whether Kerry moved to the left and adopted the positions of others and you have yet to show me how this is not another example of that.

[blm]

58. Read Kerry and Dean's earliest environmental speeches.

Read Dean's record in Vermont on civil liberties issues and his ardor for deregulation.

Dean was also all over the place with his Mideast plan.

[GumboYaYa]

59. You're changing the subject, because you have a losing battle.

You asked for examples of flip-flops to the left and I gave them. Now you want to argue completely different subjects. Just admit that there are examples that can be used to prove the thesis of the original post.

If you have the law, pound the law. If you have the facts, pound the facts. If you have neither, pound the table. LOL

[blm]

66. No, I did not. I asked for comparisons of positions from BEFORE 2003.

Dean shifted left from his longheld positions and priorities while Kerry remained on the left and has never had as drastic a shift as the poster claimed.

To claim that Kerry stole his positions from Dean is just absurd, and I notice that the original poster who I challenged has yet to come up with the comparison.

[Nicholas_J]

68. Yup:

Dean on 9/14/2001


Dean's comments on civil liberties cause alarm
September 14, 2001

MONTPELIER — Gov. Howard Dean's call for a “re-evaluation” of some of America's civil liberties following this week's terrorist attacks was criticised Thursday by a Vermont Law School professor.

“Good God,” Vermont Law School Professor Michael Mello said when read the remarks Dean made at a Wednesday news conference. “It's terribly irresponsible for the leader of our state to be saying stuff like that right now.”

Benson Scotch, the head of the Vermont chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said it was simply too soon after the attacks to engage in the sort of debates Dean called for.

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street

http://rutlandherald.com/News/Story/33681.html


Pretty much a quick description of the Patriot Act, except for the most part, the Patriot Act does not in large place the restrictions on U.S. citizens, but non-citizens.

[Caution]

10. because the presidency shoudln't be defined by single-issue voters

While I may disagree with some of what Kerry's policies are and will be, I do agree with the majority of them. I will not vote for someone based upon one or two issues but based upon an overall philosophy. All people make mistakes, some worse than others and some things are done for reasons that are unclear. Single issue voters are killing our country. My grandmother will vote for Bush for one reason only. She is anti-abortion. I point out all of the horrible things he does and she is adamant. She will not vote for anyone who believes in abortion. My cousin will vote for Bush because he feels the war in Iraq is the first in a fundamental confrontation between eastern and western philosophies and that the fight must go on (he scares the hell out of me).

I make my decision to support Kerry based upon past record, current stated policies and yes, the issue that frustrates many idealists, electability. I feel our nation is at a crossroads where a stand must be made.

Some people seem to feel that Kerry is just another Bush in Dem clothing (i've heard that before...al gore comes to mind). Some people feel that <ominous music>Skull & Bones</end ominous music> is running everything and that Kerry's candidacy is a part of some conspiracy. I feel that Kerry has done an incredible job as my Senator and has represented my ideology for nearly 20 years and I will be proud to have him as my President.

I backed Dean for quite a while because he seemed to have a flair for grass-roots activism. I now feel after watching his campaign totally implode that it wasn't so much fueled by Dean as it was fueled by dissatisfaction with Bush on a level unseen in my life time. My only problem with Kerry early on was his campaign managers seemed to not have any clue on how to present a candidate to an angry electorate. This appears to have been overcome and now I'm thrilled to see Mr. Kerry moving towards the nomination.

[Virgil]

12. The issue of paper trails

It is my belief that 110 members of the House support H.R. 2239 that would require a paper trail for voting machines. I see the legislation Congress passed requiring "new Standards" on voting machines as an insult to America and not just a sign of neglect but as a sign of corruption. I set it as "The Remove the Paper Trails Act." There are no sponsors in the Senate which makes a person think they passed the funding and law just the way they wanted it.

This is completely damning. It is unforgiveable. You could say there was an oversight, but who would now believe that as they still have not moved to correct an OBVIOUS wrong? It is beyond senseless. It is damning.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

11. Dean's and Kerry's position on gay marriage are the same

Kerry has been an advocate for gay rights long before Dean ever became a Govenor. The biggest difference between Dean and Kerry on this issue is the Kerry has a long history and record to back his advocacy up since the 80's and Dean didn't even take a position on gay marriage OR civil unions until it became politically advantageous for him to do so.

All of the major candidates have the same position: Clark, Dean, Kerry, and Edwards are all FOR civil unions and AGAINST gay marriage. The ONLY candidates that support gay marriage are Kucinich and Sharpton.

From Kerry's website:

A Record of Working on Behalf of Gay and Lesbian Americans

With a 100% rating from the Human Rights Campaign since 1995, John Kerry is a powerful voice in the ongoing fight for civil rights for gay and lesbian Americans.

Ending Discrimination
One of John Kerry’s first acts as a U.S. Senator, in 1985, was to introduce a bill prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He supports passage of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and has adopted a nondiscrimination policy for his Congressional offices based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

HIV/AIDS Funding
John Kerry cosponsored the first Ryan White Comprehensive AIDS Resources Emergency Act (CARE) - which represents the largest discretionary federal investment in treating individuals with HIV and AIDS. Kerry also sponsored the Vaccines for the New Millennium Act, aimed at boosting contributions to the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative, a non-profit group working to promote development of an HIV vaccine in 2000. Kerry introduced the U.S. Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, TB, and Malaria Act, which would increase the U.S. government’s funding of international HIV/AIDS efforts from approximately $1.7 billion in 2003 to $1.9 billion in 2004. This effort led to the unanimous passage in May 2003 the United States Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, TB, and Malaria Act of 2003. AIDS activists characterized Kerry as one of Congress’s top leaders on HIV/AIDS policy.

Preventing Hate Crimes
John Kerry is an original cosponsor of the Hate Crimes Prevention bill, which would extend federal jurisdiction over serious, violent hate crimes. These would include crimes motivated by sexual orientation. Hate crimes rose a disturbing 3.5% from 1999 to 2000.

Protecting Gay and Lesbian Families
John Kerry believes that same-sex couples should be granted rights, including access to pensions, health insurance, family medical leave, bereavement leave, hospital visitation, survivor benefits, and other basic legal protections that all families and children need. He has supported legislation to provide domestic partners of federal employees the benefits available to spouses of federal employees. He was one of 14 Senators -- and the only one up for reelection in 1996 -- to oppose the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).

Lifting the Ban on Gays in the Military
John Kerry opposed the Clinton Administration’s “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell Policy” He was one of a few senators to testify before the Senate Armed Services Committee and call on the President to rescind the ban on gay and lesbian service members.

Support for Civil Unions
John Kerry supports same-sex civil unions so that gay couples can benefit from the the health benefits, inheritance rights, or Social Security survivor benefits guaranteed for heterosexual couples.


http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/glbt /


Dean, on the other hand:

snip from 12/20/2000

"Early assumptions following the Court’s December 20 decision were that domestic partnership is the only real plan of action. Governor Howard Dean has said on several occasions that he would support domestic partnership legislation, but is uncomfortable with the idea of actual gay marriage. Dean has recently clarified his position, declaring in a radio interview, “I’m against gay marriage.” "


http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/feb2000/news_centerstage.htm

[corporatewhore]

14. I think most because the media told them to i think it is a slap in the

face to every actvist in the global justice movement to call kerry a liberal when in fact he is a neoliberal he has a long history of voting for GATT/WTO/NAFTA/IMF granting permant trade relations w/china (such the bastion of human rights) he also recently voted for bushs fast track to the FTAA sure he did try to get an ammendment requireing human rights and environmental protection but it was left out and he gave bushs fast track to the FTAA his stamp of approval (i risked arrest and bodily injury to protest the talks in miami just another reason why i cant vote for him) I find it ironic when Kucinich marched side by side with union members and activists in the battle in seattle to protest the WTO kerry was working to support the WTO side by side with big corporations to screw the working class the environment and of course the people who are virtual slaves in maquiladoras and sweatshops

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. LOVE your graphic!

It says it all.

Go Wes!

[corporatewhore]

61. Thank You I feel sad that it does sum up the mentality here

[bigtree]

17. On stealing other people's messages

Everything of importance has been said before by somebody who did not discover it.
Alfred North Whitehead (1861 - 1947)

What a good thing Adam had. When he said a good thing he knew nobody had said it before.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910), Notebooks (1935)

The point of quotations is that one can use another's words to be insulting.
Amanda Cross (1926 - )

When a thing has been said and well, have no scruple. Take it and copy it.
Anatole France (1844 - 1924)

[RetroLounge]

22. and how many of the quoted luminaries

are running for President?

[bigtree]

30. poo

[GumboYaYa]

18. You need to add "No Child Left Behind"

to your list. Kerry and Edwards both supported that dog.

[janx]

38. There are just too many problems with this man. Too many.

I honestly don't know what I'm going to do.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. same three things thrown at Kerry repeatedly..why?

Your basic points are that Kerry voted for IWR (you forgot Patriot act, as others have mentioned) is an elitist (conjecture/conspiracies abound) and that he parses his words.

These are the 3 basic arguments against John Kerry repeated AD NAUSEUM on this board.

Now, let's look at WHY these arguments are repeatedly bandied against John Kerry.

The main reason they are bandied about against John Kerry specifically by people who tend to lean toward Howard Dean is this:

Because in their hearts, Dean's supporters KNOW John Kerry's record against the ELITE/powerful is MUCH better than Howard Dean's including the convictions that came out if Iran Contra and evidence that was uncovered regarding BCCI.

In their hearts they know decisions made regarding the environment by John Kerry are MUCH stronger than anything Howard Dean has ever done.

In their hearts, ALL CANDIDATES supporters know that John Kerry has the MOST DEMOCRATIC record on PAPER of all the candidates running on the issues TYPICALLY part of the DEMOCRATIC party back when the DEMOCRATIC party had an easily recognizable platform. That is:

Respect for the environment, clean air and a commitment to renewable resources.

Targeting government corruption

Women's rights

Minorities rights

Labor rights

Protecting Medicare and social security

access to OPEN government

Gay rights (Kerry has been standing up for them since the 80's including funding for AIDS research back when gay men were dropping like flies while Reagan did nothing

Virtually EVERY aspect of the traditional Democratic platform has found John Kerry on the correct side of the issue.

You can't compare that to a guy that signed a Civil Unions bill that someone ELSE carried all the water for in a state of 650,000.

You can't compare that to a guy the balanced budgets consistently in a state smaller than the city I live in during the largest economic expansion in American History.

You can;t compare Kerry's traditional liberal record with Dean's FUTURE promise to be a liberal.

You can't compare the 350 pieces of legislation that Kerry authored or co-authored with .......how many have Dean and the other candidates combined authored???

You just can't compare.

I'm not interested in sending a "Washington outsider reformer" to DC. We Saw loads of them arrive via the Gingrich revolution in 96. Look what happened.

I WANT a guy who parses his words carefully even if OTHERS have a problem with him actually THINKING before he speaks.

I WANT a guy that KNOWS his way through the halls of congress.

I WANT a guy that KNOWS what the issues in National Security have been over the past two decades and doesn't need a litany of cue cards and a committee of former Clinton advisers to ferret out the ISSUES FOR him.

I REALLY DO want John Kerry.

He is NOT the lesser of two evils for me.

He did the work, climbed to the top and his TIME HAS come.

[janx]

21. "He did the work, climbed to the top and his TIME HAS come."

Nobody owes John Kerry a vote because of this, sorry. That's not what democracy is all about.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. I also had about 200 words you ignored prior to that statement

[blm]

24. You don't. Millions of others will by November...thank undergod.

.

[GumboYaYa]

25. First let me congratulate you on your ability to

see from your keyboard straight into my heart. It is a talent that I wish I had.

Second, perhaps people mention those three things because they are true.

You point to Kerry's long history of liberalism, but what is more important to me is what has he done since he developed the political ambition to become president. IMO he has taken the safe path and ignored Democratic values whenever those values were politically inconvenient.

For example Kerry voted for "No Child Left Behind." Anyone looking at that bill when it was proposed should have known it was a massive unfunded mandate and that it would destroy many public schools. Nevertheless, Dems lined up to vote for it b/c it was a popular bill with the public. My die-hard Republican mom, who also happens to have been a teacher for 30 years and who now is the principal of an inner city school, will not vote for Bush or anyone else who voted for that bill. She has to live within its path of destruction as do millions of schoolchildren in America.

Kerry voted for the IWR and don't tell me he was misled. You, I and every other person paying attention, knew that the so-called evidence of WMDs in Iraq was a fraud long BEFORE the war started. To have voted for the IWR and never have mentioned the abundant evidence that showed there was no threat from Iraq is a lie of omission that is unforgiveable for me.

I guess it's a matter of what have you done for me lately and when it comes to Kerry, it's hard for me to find anything in his recent past where he has shown a willingness to fight for me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Believe me Gumbo, I know that is an issue but please hear me out

We have NOT been at this point in OUR lifetime. Even immediately prior to Roosevelt, we were NOT here at the place we are where we are dangerously close to single party government.

I might add that I truly believe Kerry has ALWAYS wanted to be president. I concede he may have tacked back to the center to get there but I DON'T include the war vote in that and I GRANT you the issue on NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND. He is going to have to reconcile that.

On the war vote...and fault me if you want...I will never believe that vote was purely political for Kerry. Prior to yesterday, I simply believed it in my heart but yesterday, when the BBC story was in LBN regarding OSP, I saw something.(check LBN for the story of how OSP played a role in debunked intel being given credibility)

Several senators and legislators that had been VEHEMENTLY against the war changed their vote right after the closed door security meeting including Dianne Feistein who was not up for re-election and had already spoken about the IAEA visit she had.

I feel that one HIGHLY possible if not probable explanation is that Kerry, having sat on the intelligence committee for as long as he had reheard testimony in that closed door meeting (meaning its contents are STILL not able to be discussed by him without HIM committing a crime) from agents who had possibly testified credibly before him in the past. He had to weigh their credibility with past issues versus conflicting info. He made the wrong choice.

You may regard that as an excuse but if you DO consider he sat on that committee well over a decade, it is indeed plausible.

People who ABSOLUTELY don't want to give hem the benefit of the doubt won't be swayed.

IF someone close to him were to EVER state it was purely political and for power, I would gladly rethink my position...but my experience of his past doesn't jibe with the more cynical political..."I want power so I'm gonna let tens of thousands of people die" explanation. Not when I consider his past in its entirety.

Again, I will be glad to reconsider if evidence to the contrary were to surface but no one on DU has yet provided a persuasive argument except by appeals to emotion.

[GumboYaYa]

31. NSMA, Kerry's argument doesn't pass the smell test with me.

I knew that ninety percent of the so-called evidence was contrived. When I heard Colin Powell speak, I told everyone who would listen that he was lying. You and I can both sit here and list fifty different lies that were provable lies BEFORE the war started.

If I knew, you will never convince me that sitting U.S. Senators with a staff to investigate these maters did not know these lies as well.

For me it is more than the IWR vote. It is the fact that our Senators let one brave old man sit in the Senate chamber and lead a valiant fight to stop what we all knew then to be an illegal invasion and not one of our current candidates who was in the very same Senate stood up to give a hand to this feeble old man. It's a shame when an eighty plus year old Senator has to do all the heavy lifting. I'm not ready to forgive and forget just yet (if I have to I will, but I'll cross that bridge later).

I will always consider the failure of the Dem Senators to point out the lies that we knew were lies to be all the evidence I need of their cowardice.

I guess my main point, though, is that many of us Dean supporters have very valid reasons for supporting Dean.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. I'll always consider it too

But as far as the senate and staff to investigate are concerned..you might want to look at the total picture of what was being thrown at them point blank. This administration has been flinging shit at us and them 90 miles an hour like a tennis ball machine that flings turds....keeping them off balance by dividing and conquering every step of the way. Our own side is being undermined by the centrists ala Breaux, Miller etc, that I keep hearing MUST be elected in their states because the south is "just different."

It didn't all happen in a vaccuum. Dean supporters DO have valid reasons for supporting him and he HAD my support for SOME of those very valid reasons until recently.
I was never in the pro DEAN camp but seriously considered him.

Until recently I had NOT been an attack dog where Dean was concerned even though I had some issues with his own record.

Howard Dean himself blew his own capital with me...first by SEVERELY mismanaging his opportunity to stand out front by having almost NO presence on the ground in Iowa (reported back to me by an Iowan whose observations I trust and who was pro Dean), second by his divisive comments calling Democrats -Republicans, and finally by his obvious contradiction of claiming he's an outsider but hiring insiders to recover from his errors.

If he can pull it off...more power to him.
Statements by many of his faithful(not you), that they will sit at home in november if he doesn't get the nod tell me the capital to be gained by his very hard work is minimal toward having all of us who are left of center be the majority we deserve to be. He's not uniting anyone but the angry. There aren't enough "angry left" to counter the "rabid right". There just aren't. IF there were...he'd have the states to prove it.

[GumboYaYa]

36. We will have to just disagree in the IWR vote.

To me it is as simple as this. I knew they were lying and my Dem representatives in Congress damn well should have done their homework and know the same. Either they failed to do their homework and sent people off to die without doing there job or they knew the lies and cynically killed Americans because it would hurt them politically to vote otherwise.

I don't necessarily agree that war was inevitable. Had a prominent Dem Senators taken a stand and pointed out all the lies, we may have avoided war. Americans were amazingly uninformed on this war and the ignorance was the basis for much ofthe support in the final days.

I can't answer for the angry supporters. I have consistently said I will do whatevcer it takes to get rid of Bush. I can empathize with some of them, given the exrtraordinarily high level of vitriol that many have experienced for their support.

I think one thing that people do not understand is that many, in fact most, Dean supporters have been working for months in the real world to support him. I remeber pasing out flyers over the summer when Dean was a blip in the polls and no one knew who he was. It is human nature to internalize the campaign when you have personally worked so hard on it. That makes it harder to handle defeats when they come and much harder to endure gloating over the fact of losses. I hope that whoever our nominee is, we unite around that person, but I'm concerned that the beating that Dean supporters are taking on here, in the press, and from traditional dem powers, will alienate many of those people. That will be a sad result for so many who truly want to make America better.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. I'll address the defeat issue first.

He isn't defeated yet and even though the primary is frontloaded this year, there are many populous states left for him to make a comeback.

Some of us were very conciliatory on the loss, and I myself was for about a day until the ad hominem, skull and bones. "kerry's war wounds were glass cuts" posts began occurring ad nauseum. Then I did "tit for tat" and while I am not proud of it, I am human as are you and I got a couple warnings in my inbox and..heck...nothing to back you off the behavior better than an impending consequence.

Part of my discomfort with Dean is that between the Confederate Flag statement (even though HIS IDEAS ARE INDEED CORRECT) and the anti-war appeal in spite of his rather conflicting statements in the matter on record, and now with the I'M THE REAL DEMOCRAT and THEY ARE REPUBLICANS (paraphrasing) statements, I don't view him as someone who really wants to cure the anger that has taken this country so off course..but as someone cynically manipulating it in order to be president. I'm willing to reconsider, but it will have to come from Dean's future behavior and statements..not from his supporters. They can't UNDO what I heard HIM do much the same way I can't convince you of some things.


I don't agree with you on the either/or nor an the war aspect. Bush, Perle, Cheney et al were GOING to war with Iraq one way or another. By hook or by crook. DU'ers were being shipped off to the gulf before ANY vote was cast. Troop movements were reported WAY prior to that vote. They were going to go to war either in a predictable manner or in an unpredictable one. I know that doesn't get me anywhere with you nor others but the writing was on the wall. This war was planned from the minute he took office.

No matter who gets the nod..that much of a change will have occurred..

[GumboYaYa]

46. I see it as something other than cynical manipulation of the anger.

To me it is more that he truly identifies with those feelings and wants to do something to correct the course the country is taking. Our opinions on this are subjective, so it is what it is and that's what it is.

The "angry man" meme is a product of the press. Dean's strained facial expressions are part of the reason for this, but largely it is a creation of the media. Dean calling other Dems Republicans pales in comparison to the Osama ads, but that is just my opinion.

If you listen to what Dean says, he actually has some very pragmatic solutions to some of the very basic problems confronting our country and offers a vision of hope. Unfortunately, to get there you have to swim a river of shit left from the Bush administration.

That's all for me for the time being. I have an important date with my seven year-old to help her learn lines for a play. I appreciate the constructive discussion. Have a nice weekend!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. You have fun too

I have read Dean's positions. I appreciate many and just so you know..I've read more than I watched and was vehemently in support of him on the SCREAM and Osama ad issues....my comments are in the archives on both matters.

[Uzybone]

63. NSMA and Gumbo

Thank you both for one of the BEST exchanges I have ever seen on DU. Its not often I leave a thread feeling enlightened.

[RetroLounge]

26. He did the work, climbed to the top and his TIME HAS come?

King Kerry. He deserves it!

There are a hell of a lot more Senators who have done more work and been around longer that I'd rathe see as front runner (Byrd, for instance).

Kerry isn't even close...

Voted for war because:

1) Too stupid to know this war is wrong
2) Too stupid not to get fooled by bush*
3) Piss-Poor Political Calculation.
4) All of the above

[D G]

27. WOO! NSMA for President

:yourock:

[blm]

28. HIGH FIVES for the most comprehensive member of the board.

In my humble opinion. ;)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[corporatewhore]

48. you mention environmentalism and labor rights yet kerry is opposed to them

as his strong support for rampant free trade has shown

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. No he isn't. He was the fiercest promoter of Kyoto.

The significance of which is that it would have forced other countries to limit their emissions of greenhouse gasses thereby forcing them to either comply or not be such an attractive alernative for businesses fleeing America to ditch our strict pollution laws.

While I am aware of the problems and upside down nature of NAFTA and GATT, I do believe in trade and believe that trade IS a good way to lift nations out of poverty if accompanied by other carrots in order to coerce human rights out of the worse offenders.

Kerry also favors alternatove energy sources which creates jobs.

[bornskeptic]

20. Why do you want to believe the exact opposite of the truth?

Also, back to gay marriage, I do believe that Kerry has not only voted once, but twice on Defense of Marriage Act (which is also anti-gay) which is unconstitutional, overriding Clinton's presidential veto.

Kerry voted against DOMA, along with only thirteen other Democrats. Clinton signed it into law.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=104&session=2&vote=00280

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

[blm]

35. bumping for an answer.

.

[maddezmom]

41. bottom line, I'm voting for the nominee

Every single one of them have flaws, made mistakes etc, but in the end they all are better than bush. All of them.

[MAlibdem]

45. Well

This MA resident (and a liberal to boot) supported IWR, so don't speak for me, and don't speak for my neighbors.

Additionally..."When the IWR was gearing up for a vote, a lot of Massachusetts constitutents has flooded the phone banks, faxes, e-mails, and mailboxes asking that Kerry NOT vote for the IWR. "

My English teacher was one of these. He still opposes the war. But he received a "very articulate letter" explaining why Kerry's vote. My teacher appreciated that Kerry (or someone in his office) took the time to reply (could have been a form letter, but it was still responsible).

Beyond that, you clearly haven't read Kerry's speech on the floor of the Senate...there have been a thousand threads on this.

[cindyw]

55. 1. Dean and Kerry's position on gay marriage is the same.

What I see in your quotes is that Dean found a way to answer the question without addressing the actual ruling. There is not difference between Kerry and Dean except that Kerry believes civil unions should be a right across the country and Dean thinks the states should decide. Does anyone know why Dean thinks this?

2. Kerry voted against DOMA. Get your facts straight.

Just for the record he voted with Kennedy on the NCLB. He voted with 98 other senators on PA (including Wellstone). He voted against the Bush tax cuts, twice. Are there any others you may have wrong? Oh he voted against the 87 billion.

[mitchum]

56. Clem, you don't "look new" at all...

not even a tiny bit

Kerry 2004

[JNelson6563]

62. It's not even over yet

There's no reason for me to change my vote.

[KYDEM]

67. Everyone should take a look

At the Congressional Record to back up what they are saying about Kerry and his votes. Here is the address: http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/g_three_sections_with_teasers/legislative_home.htm

[mitchum]

69. Beautiful sight there, "Clem"

Kerry 2004