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Cell Whitman Donating Member (872 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 06:50 PM
Original message
"Godwin’s Law" is bullshit
Godwin’s Law in its simplest form says that the first person to use the analogy that some person or group is a fascist loses the argument.

Godwin (whoever the hell he is) is fill of shit for two main reasons.

One: Godwin obviously had NO fucking idea where this country was headed when he came up with his little “law”.

Two: While liberals have sat around and coward at using the word the GD fascist bastards on the right like Bush and his “Islamofascist” and Horrorwitz and co. with their “liberals are fascists” have used the term to the point where now calling them fascist, which they most certainly are, doesn’t make a dent. We sit and let them define us over and over and NEVER learn.

Even John Dean, who writes this tremendous book on how conservatives are authoritarian freaks is AFRAID to come out and say what is obvious, the right has lead the nation to a dark, dark place which is not only authoritarian but fascist in nature. No, Dean, afraid the ghost of Godwin will snag him, jumps through fucking hoops in every interview to say “we aren’t there yet, but we could be if we keep going down this path.”…what’s he fucking afraid of? Godwin?

Fact is we are authoritarian, an “Americanized” authoritarian nation if you will, we are now a torture loving fascist nation, an “Americanized” fascism if you will, we are a theocratic nation, an “Americanized” theocratic nation in diapers if you must, but a theocratic nation nonetheless.

We sit around playing games with the GD words, afraid to call this what it is and the whole while these theofascist bastards are taking our country and the world to hell.

There you go, use “THEOFASCIST” if it makes you feel any better.

Cell’s Law: Godwin’s Law is null and void because Godwin didn’t have a GD clue where we were headed.

Zappa knew exactly what he was talking about when he faced down this SOB from the theofascist Washington Times.

See the video here:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/03/01/frank-zappa-debates-liebermans-pals-on-crossfire-86

Zappa: The biggest threat to America today is not communism; it's moving America towards a fascist theocracy and everything that has happened during the Reagan administration is steering us right down that pipe.

When pressed to give an example of what he meant by a "fascist theocracy," Zappa continued:

Zappa: When you have a government that prefers a certain moral code derived from a certain religion and that moral code turns into legislation to suit one certain religious point of view and if that code happens to be very, very right wing almost toward Attila the Hun.

Lofton: Well then you are an anarchist. Every form of civil government is based on some kind of morality, Frank.

Zappa: Morality in terms of behavior; not in terms of theology.



http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1569

Former top (Unification Church) official Steve Hassan believes that the Washington Times is a "Trojan horse" within the conservative movement. Hassan told EXTRA!, "Conservative politics is glad to have a voice through the Times, but ultimately it has nothing to do with conservatism. It has to do with fascism."


There you have it, theofascism.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Godwin was a fascist--Jobycom's Law. nt
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Cell Whitman Donating Member (872 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. heh
:7
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. You lose
:evilgrin::P
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. No, I just rewrote the paradigm. Us divine beings can do that.
I am, too!
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jayctravis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Actually...Godwin's law is a spoiler for usenet discussions.
Edited on Wed Aug-23-06 07:05 PM by jayctravis
And it stated whomever invoked Hitler or Nazis in a discussion *that had nothing to do with Hitler or Nazis" automatically lost the discussion and it ended.

From: tskirvin@killfile.org (Tim Skirvin)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks, alt.usenet.legends
Subject: How to post about Nazis and get away with it - the Godwin's Law FAQ
Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 00:00:00 -0500
Message-ID: <godwin-20040515050000$74ea@news.killfile.org>
Reply-To: tskirvin@killfile.org
Summary: This is a list of frequently asked questions about Godwin's Law,
the natural law relating Usenet and Nazis once and for all.

Archive-name: usenet/legends/godwin
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-Modified: October 7, 2003
Version: 1.15
URL: http://www.killfile.org/faqs/godwin.faq
Maintainer: tskirvin@killfile.org (Tim Skirvin)

Godwin's Law FAQ
-or-
"How to post about Nazis and get away with it"

One of the most famous pieces of Usenet trivia out there is "if you mention
Hitler or Nazis in a post, you've automatically ended whatever discussion
you were taking part in". Known as Godwin's Law, this rule of Usenet has a
long and sordid history on the network - and is absolutely wrong. This FAQ
is an attempt to set straight as much of the history and meaning of Godwin's
Law as possible, and hopefully encourage users to invoke it a bit more
sparingly. Of course, knowing Usenet, it won't do an ounce of good...


of Usenet; if you don't, go check out news.announce.newusers for a while to
gain said knowledge. Misuse of the information contained within this FAQ
is not the responsibility of the author (though he's pretty confused exactly
how you could misuse this information). Copyright 1999-2002, Tim Skirvin,
all rights reserved, <FISH><, fnord, furrfu.]


I. The Basics
1. What is Godwin's Law?

Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet named after Mike Godwin
(godwin@eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions". It reads, according to
the Jargon File:

As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.


2. What does it mean?

It pretty much means exactly what it says - as a Usenet thread
goes on, the chances of somebody or something being compared to a Nazi
approach one.


3. Yes, but what does it *mean*?

Aah, now *there's* the real question.

In case your head has been buried in the sand for the last sixty
years or so, the Nazis were a German political party lead by Adolf Hitler
that slaughtered upwards of ten million people that didn't meet their
standards of "ethnic purity" and set off to conquer Europe and the world
in World War II. They are generally considered the most evil group of
people to live in modern times, and to compare something or someone to
them is usually considered the gravest insult imaginable.

As a Usenet discussion gets longer it tends to get more heated; as
more heat enters the discussion, tensions get higher and people start to
insult each other over anything they can think of. Godwin's Law merely
notes that, eventually, those tensions eventually cause someone to find
the worst insults that come to mind - which will almost always include a
Nazi comparison.


4. That still doesn't answer my question. What does it *MEAN*?

The Law is generally used on Usenet as an indicator of whether a
thread has gone on too long, who's playing fair and who's just slinging
mud, and who finally gets to "win" the discussion. It has, over time,
become the closest thing to an impartial moderator that Usenet can get.

---snipped, more at link
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parasim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. So, go tell him yourself at www.godwinslaw.org
btw...

Godwin's Law does not dispute whether, in a particular instance, a reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a reference or comparison may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin argues in his book, Cyber Rights: Defending Free Speech in the Digital Age, that hyperbolic overuse of the Hitler/Nazi comparison should be avoided, as it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

from the Godwin's Law entry on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. Nah, it's not bullshit - pretty sensible, actually...
...but idiots who try to discredit it to make some dreary little point are, indeed, full of shit.
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Cell Whitman Donating Member (872 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. some agreed and some disagreed and gave thoughtful reasons why
I can respect that...some just make jerk off smart ass remarks and think they are bigshots for doing so I guess, hard to figure jerks and their reasons for being so...
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yeah, pretty hard to figure alright...
...but count me as un-fucking-impressed with the original horseshit reasoning that started the whole thing...

...(snicker)....
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. All the l33t kids
make a 50 Hitler post. I won't do that cause it's friendlier if I do it with smilies:

:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
11. Kicked for a thought and a rant.
Well then you are an anarchist. Every form of civil government is based on some kind of morality, Frank.

Zappa: Morality in terms of behavior; not in terms of theology.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. That is about as cluesless a rant as I have read on DU
Have you even bothered to read the background and history behind Godwin's Law?

Have you ever looked up Godwin and what his positions are on free speech?

Does it hurt to embarass youself so badly in public?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. That is about as cluesless a rant as I have read on DU
Have you even bothered to read the background and history behind Godwin's Law?

Have you ever looked up Godwin and what his positions are on free speech?

Does it hurt to embarass youself so badly in public?
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
14. Oh please
Next you rant about something, read up on it first. The "law" isn't about losing the argument.

As to the established custom that the Hitler comparison is foul play - that's actually a very import thing in civil debates. Especially as such comparisons tend to be very poorly researched and never add anything substantial to the conversation.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. Godwin's Law..
... made sense in a time when almost nobody was acting like a Nazi.

I've already suggested that calling someone a terrorist is the modern day equivalent.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Same could be said of fascist
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choie Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
17. Your statement of Godwin's Law is incorrect.
The whole "the first person to compare the opposition to Hitler loses the argument" is a misstatement of actual Godwin's Law. It's actually a simple (and still accurate) prediction of probability:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

So no, Godwin's Law isn't "bullshit." Before making such a rant, why couldn't you even be bothered to do a simple lookup of who Godwin was, much less accurately relate his theory? Mike Godwin is a fighter for civil liberties and cyber rights, and deserves better than to have his ideas bastardized as they have been.

I agree that the whole "first person to mention Nazis loses" is a stupid, simplistic generalization. Sometimes it makes sense to compare the rise of the Third Reich with the actions of our current government; how else can we warn of rising fascism but to compare to previous examples of it?

HOWEVER, I think it IS true that the use of the Hitler-comparison gambit is made far too often, far too quickly. Much of the time it's lazy, and frankly instead of being a sharp attack, it dulls the impact of the debater's point.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Indeed. Comparisons to Hitler are almost never appropriate.
Only one world leader today that I can think of approaches the level of Hitler and that is Kim Jong Il with his cult of personality, political oppression, and a country completely built around the military.

The Nazis are uniquely bad in the context of world history in that they were evil on almost every level. The amount of destruction they unleashed upon the world is quite simply unequaled. Comparisons of most people and groups of people to the Nazis are unfounded and meant simply to stir strong emotional feelings.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. Zappa left us too soon
What talent and insight!
:cry:
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