Pleas to Kerry people and my ignore list

[mrgorth]

FOr the last 12 months my life has been defined by Howard Dean's campaign. Now, without a miracle, I know I will soon be watching his withdraw speech through tears. I still think that Howard Dean was the strongest candidate to take on Bush and Kerry will get jobbed. I think that several circumstances and some bad decisions by DFA caused the demise of Dean's campaign. Right now I am teetering on whether or not to support Kerry in the general vs. a 3rd party vote or Dean write in.

I am going to empty my 50 some person long ignore list. Please, Kerry people, for the love of God GET ME TO SUPPORT YOUR CANDIDATE but most of all STOP THE FUCKING GLOATING. Dean's demise will mean nothing to you if you don't defeat the shrub in November. Right now there is 1 thing pulling me in your direction...Mr. Sitting Bull.

Your candidate should've voted against the PA and against the IWR. More recently, he should've defended the Mass court decision. I have no idea how such an opportunist got to this stage. Maybe he just presents himself better.

[gWbush is Mabus]

1. he got to this stage because

he has no passion
he is an insider
he is tall
he went to vietnam
he says what people want to hear rather than the truth
because the media MADE him the nominee

[liberalnurse]

8. And in the long run......

*bush ultimately wins for real this time. We've wasted valuable time with too many candidates and inside dirty tricks......We are letting *bush win, because we or shall I say the DLC, has done the dirty work already for *bush. The Primaries have been a slaughtehouse.

It's depressing for sure. Will the grassroot democrats ever find the strength to fight again?

[BootinUp]

14. something tells me

that's not the plea mrgorth was lookin fer. :P

[OneBlueSky]

42. excuse me, but the media had him dead and buried . . .

before Iowa . . . what made him the frontrunner is that more people have voted for him than for any of the other candidates . . .

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JasonDeter]

3. Ya, what PeteNYC said.

And if Kerry is knocked out whoever takes his place gets my vote.

[OneBlueSky]

43. I'll second (or third) that . . .

in every post in which I've mentioned Howard Dean, I've complimented him for his accomplishments and for being the first candidate in years to fundamentally alter the way in which campaigns are conducted . . . I truly admire him for his ability to energize and excite voters, and I hope he has a role in whatever Democratic administration takes office in 2005 . . . my support for Kerry in no way implies any denigration of Howard Dean or any other candidate . . . I'm simply going with the Democrat who best reflects my own positions AND has a chance at beating Bush . . .

I think the people dissing Howard Dean are a distinct minority . . . there just seem to be more of them because the same folks post their feelings over and over again . . . by the same token, there is a distinct minority of Dean supporters who post denigrating comments about John Kerry over and over again . . . neither of these groups is doing anything constructive to help us defeat Bush in November, imo . . .

[TheDonkey]

4. Democrats across America are picking Kerry

He didn't have the most coverage, the most name recognition, the most money, and the best looks but people are voting for him.

All you can do is rest your faith in democrats around the country to pick their best choice and Kerry as of now is leading.

It's very simple.

[displacedtexan]

5. So wrong... so wrong... but we've been down so long

that we had to make somebody listen.

That was a 60's folk song that probably describes how we Kerry supporters have felt since Iowa.

I was crushed when Harkin lost the primary to Clinton! I thought Clinton was way too conservative. If Kerry can repeat Clinton's model (surrounding himself with the brightest minds and people with genuine heart), maybe you can feel better about a possible President Kerry... the way I felt better about President Clinton.

Keep supporting your candidate, and keep defeating * your goal!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

13. Your comments about Clinton are so right.

That is exactly how I feel about it, although I was a Brown supporter. Just as Clinton mostly won me over through his actions, I think Kerry will win over those who doubt him now.

[mb7588a]

6. John Kerry is a figher and a closer.

One of the things you could do to get a real sense of the man is read "Tour of Duty" by Douglas Brinkley. Kerry's own book has an entire chapter on why he wants to be President, it's a quick read, "A Call to Service."

I get the feeling you won't take it straight from a Kerry supporter, so the best thing may be to do some looking around on your own. That's not an attempt at blowing you or Dean supporters off, it's just a suggestion.

If nothing else, focus all your politicl energy for a local candidate, and keep ABB dear at heart. You have to believe at lease on some level that John Kerry is better than George W. Bush.

[liberalnurse]

10. I actually have grave doubts

regarding his abilities. I have surrendered.....if he is the nominee.

[youngred]

7. Dean would want you to vote ABB

and has said so himself. The main goal is getting rid of Bush, we can sort our ideological wars out later.

On edit: Howard's not out of it yet, only 10% of the delegates have been chosen, so NO ONE is out of it yet

[FubarFly]

12. If Dean endorses a candidate, I will listen to his reasons why,

and then make up my own mind. If Dean doesn't endorse a candidate, I will listen to his reasons why, and then make up my own mind.
IOW, as far as MY vote is concerned, Dean's ABBness is irrelevant.

[youngred]

32. Fair enough nt

[RetroLounge]

37. If I write in Dean in the GE

I still vote ABB...

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

9. I admire your dedication to Dean

And I respect your objections to the votes Kerry made on some issues.

I have resolved these issues for myself and feel he is the best candidate in the current field to replace Bush.

I know this has to be very difficult for you. I'm not going to "get you to support" Kerry. I think that is a process you can resolve on your own. The important thing to me is to replace Bush come November. Kerry has not won the nomination yet. I will support whomever the nominee is, and I hope you will too.

[cindyw]

11. Let me clue you into something. I have been supporting Kerry for quite

some time. I have endured ridicule of my candidate and ridicule of me as a supporter. I have been called Bush-Lite, BFEE enabler, un-American and much worse. I have listened to Dean supporters make fun of Kerry for polling lower than Sharpton nationally and much, much worse. You will have to excuse me if I feel no sympathy for you initially. Some Dean supporters have been the meanest democrats I have ever conversed with (I have met these people outside of DU also). It is unfortunate and to some degree has improved greatly. I also have not seen all that much gloating by Kerry supporters except for the occasional excitement. Gloating for Kerry supporters is rare. In fact I would say that Kerry supporters have learned to have a lot of humility. Not to mention that this thing is not over. Anything can happen.

Now if you are really asking for some empathy I understand that. I am fully aware that many people have dedicated their lives to Dean. I have no intention of asking Dean supporters to jump on the bandwagon. I feel that political excitement has to come from a place of wanting make a change. If Dean supporters are going to support the nominee (if it is not Dean) it will take some time to recognize that we will have to fight together to accomplish our common goal...defeating Bush. Everyone who has supported their candidates to a great degree will go through a process of grief.

Excuse me if the first half of this was angry, but I have endured a lot in supporting Kerry and I for one am not going to let a group of people who have gloated for months tell me not to gloat. But I respect the idea of humility. I have encouraged it at all times. I hope you accept my candor. I am trying to accept yours. I will not accept your characterization of my candidate.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. Thanks, you said it better than I could have.

[polmaven]

25. Well said, cindyw..

But we are STILL being called Bush-Lite, stupid, ignorant, sheeple, republicans, etc...Perhaps Mrgorth will agree that EVERYONE needs to be civil in this thing. We are all in this together. We are all after the same goal......GET RID OF BUSH!!!!

And, Mrgorth....please define gloating. If it is a "told you so, na na na na na na...I'm better than you are...", I agree...But if it is being thrilled for our candidate, and being excited to see him win, I will not agree...Please don't ask us to NOT be happy with successes. We have as much of a right to celebrate our candidate as would you if it were the good doctor who was winning.

[sandnsea]

35. Well said n/t

[DontBlameMe]

15. You're not alone.

I started supporting Dean after seeing a speech in Seattle last April (I think). I just voted for him in Michigan, despite the polls.

And, for the first time in many months, I've started posting again, simply to stick it to the "gloating" Kerry supporters. I don't dislike Kerry, per se, but some of his supporters make me want to rack up 30+ warnings and get banned.

To all Kerry people out there: Keep it civil, please. All the shit you complained about Dean supporters doing 6 months ago is not justification for being snots now. If he wins the primary, he will need all of our support in the GE.


Edit: Dean supporters, please, ABB!!!!!!!!!

[krkaufman]

17. I'm not campaigning to be the first entry back into your ignore list....

.... but might I suggest *another* option...? Wes Clark.

We need all the ardent, grassroots, politics-as-unusual supporters we can get. If you're not wholly averse, let us know.

Cheers..! and good luck w/ your dilemna.

(Hope Howard does well this weekend.)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. Congratulations, you get my VERY last post in this forum

After today I am staying out..it's just better for my blood pressure.
Uo until last week, I was not against Dean and rarely criticized him. I have reasons I don't care for him but I won't state them here. He is your candidate and you are entitled to promote who you believe in.

I must say I have never considered Kerry's votes on IWR or the Patriot Act purely political. Some people feel that way, I don't.

Re: The Patriot Act, it filled gaps that FISA left open and if you recall FISA warrants had been issued against one of the 9/11 suspects and a federal judge had rejected them in the past. The act itself is wrong and there are many problems with it but that is exactly why provisions were written in for the act to sunset.

Re: IWR - Kerry's position changed on IWR after a closed door meeting as did many senators and congresspeople including one of my own. There is an LBN thread detailing more info about OSP and how these agenst were pressured to accept evidence that was debunked and give it credence. IF these agents had previously testified credibly before Kerry (and odds are they did given he served on the Intelligence Committee for 18 years and some were senior agents) then it is entirely conceivable that he had to weigh their previous credibility against conflicting information and their current statements. He called it wrong. To people who expect him to explain more, it was a closed door meeting and he would be committing a federal crime to explain himself further.

To my knowledge, the only other times he gave his vote for military action were Bosnia and Somalia in his entire career. He did NOT vote for Gulf war 1.

Kerry's position on gay marriage is identical to Dean's. He supports civil unions and has MANY strong statements on the record rejecting bigotry against gay people.

For being an opportunist, he has a history of ferreting out government corruption. He almost ruined his career when investigating BCCI as a close friend of Carter's (Clark Clifford) became implicated. Clifford, it turns out had NOT committed a crime but he was persona non grata with high level Dems for Clifford even being referenced in the investigation

He only backed off from that investigation after Clinton ordered it dropped and there was no where else to go.

The two convicted felons in George Bush's administration, Elliot Abrahams and Otto Reich were convicted based on Kerry's investigative work which was then used by the special prosecutor in Iran Contra and Senator Inouye at the hearings to to indict them. It was HIS work that got those hearings accomplished and George Bush Sr's pardons that undermined further convictions as well as Bill Clinton's lack of political will to follow through.

His environmental record is better than most in the senate.

He pushed HARD for Kyoto (dropped unilaterally by the Bush admin) which would have resulted in less manufacturing jobs being shipped abroad since there in now no incentive for other countries to pass anti-pollution laws.


He has enforced (and written) tough banking laws onshore and offshore, which laws if not abandoned by the Bush admin would have made it far easier to trace laundered money in drugs, terrorism AND corporate crime...hardly the act of a corporate apologist.


And finally, I am 45 years old and for nearly ALL of my adult life John Kerry has been on the side of the issue with his votes that I value most...be it labor rights, women's rights, clean air, clean water, or darn near any other issue.

I further feel that his extensive knowledge of security matters and his long standing relatinship with the senate and congress will lead to greater cooperation to clean up the mess from this administration.

His plan on Iraq is not all that far apart from Dean..he is NOT for expanding the mission but for turning it over to the UN.

John Kerry is NOT at the mercy of oil companies.

He favors alternative energy sources.

I could go on but you probably won't read all of this anyway.

[JohnKleeb]

20. Wasnt Gifford an old time aide of Truman's NSMA?

Either way I think I will begin my retreat to the lounge until summer or until the nominee emerges.

[Tinoire]

23. Thanks NSMA. I need more posts like this to give us something

to believe in because there's not much left with all of the DLC shenanigans.

Thank you.

Don't go. Don't quit posting. Please.

[mzmolly]

28. I agree, that kind of articulation of Kerrys stances and person are rare

here.

Generally we get short quips of why ? sucks, and very little about JK worth reading.

I am feeling confused like Mr. Gorth, and appreciate your response. I am still undecided and I still have a great amount of faith in Howard Dean, but appreciate your view point.

[mitchum]

26. That is a beautiful and awesome swansong, nsma

but please don't leave this forum

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. Great post nsma. I feel like those things have been said so many times

here, that I sometimes lose faith that anyone is really listening with an open mind, but thanks for setting the record straight.

[Tinoire]

33. Uh.... You keep posting too

:hi:

Your posts have done a lot to help Kerry. And thank you for not being a flamer.

[texasmom]

38. Thank you for your post.

I am really glad to read these stands Kerry has taken.
I'm also glad to read a very simplified version of Kerry's role in the BCCI investigation. I remember Clark Clifford, and now I want to read more about that whole time.
Thanks for taking the time to write.

[fishnfla]

19. I'm sorry but, 50?

At the risk of being #1 on the new list, I'm gonna say that # is not a good reflection upon yourself, at all.

[mzmolly]

29. Actually, I think it's healthy to have an abundant ignore list.

I think I'll try it soon. ;)

[lovedems]

21. You should read (or re-read) the post

What is going on at DU with the GE? Kerry is not my guy either, but this election isn't just about me, being a democrat is not just about me. This election is about the future of our country and about 1. The 18 year old who doesn't want his/her life riddled with a Scalia SCOTUS. It is about the person who is over 60 and has suffered enough already. How many have had to chose between bills and medication? That is what the essence of a dem is, caring about others and not only yourself. That is what this election is about. It is about the future for my kids. I urge you to be ABB and not for your sake alone, but for the sake of the kids, the senior citizens, the GLBT community, etc. etc.

[cindyw]

27. Very well said.

[OKNancy]

22. Actually the Kerry people have been pretty mild compared

to......some.

[blondeatlast]

24. Please read this that I wrote on primary day:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=259282

I've worked hard in campaigns too, only to see the candidate be defeated. I've learned to settle, but I know the disappointment you feel; I've been there.

I'm a Kucinich supporter, so I haven't had high hopes for some time.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. Yes, everyone at DU should read that.

It does get easier after you've been through a few campaigns, that's for sure.

[blondeatlast]

36. Indeed. I think for a lot of Dean supporters, this is their first campaign

They are driven by idealism and youth--both 100% positives, IMHO. But it makes it harder to swallow the bitter pill for them.

I remember my first campaign; it was Jimmy Carter's re-election bid. I was 18 and I thought I'd never recover from the heartache. I put so much of myself into it.

[no name no slogan]

40. I can relate to that

my first big campaign was Dukakis in 1988. I started volunteering for him during the primaries, where I organized two precincts. I went all the way to my state convention as a Dukakis delegate. After the national convention that summer, Dukakis was ahead by 17 points. He looked all but invincible going into the fall.

Unfortunately we all know how that turned out. My co-coordinator for the county (who went to the national convention as a delegate) was in tears much of the night. As a matter of fact, the only race Dems won in my district was for the state leg-- and that one by less than 200 votes. It was a crappy year for us all around, but I got over it.

I moved on to 1990, and worked wholeheartedly for Paul Wellstone's first US Senate run. He was an underdog, too, and beat out some fierce competition for the endorsement. Not to mention the squeeker of a general election race.

Eventually, we all get over these things. This time will be no different. We'll pick another fight, give it our all, and hope for the best. If we win, we'll celebrate. If we lose, we'll pick ourselves up and do it all again for another candidate! :D

[Jerseycoa]

30. I've been meaning to say this

In my observation, Kerry supporters have been steadfast in adversity and gracious now in time of good fortune. They defend their candidate and don't engage in offense attack, with the usual few exceptions to the rule. In the main, they promote their candidate and defend against attacks on their candidate.

I'm not throwing in the towel to Kerry and nobody should, but if we can settle down and treat each other with respect now, it will be easier when we do have a nominee to support the nominee.

The current abuse I see issuing from an opponent's supporters comes not from the Dean camp and not from the Kerry camp, but from a third set of supporters who, frankly, could use lessons in courtesy from both Dean and Kerry supporters.

[in_cog_ni_to]

mrgorth, don't give up on Dean yet!

If he wins Winsconsin, he'll still be in the race! :hug:

[absyntheNsugar]

39. As someone who most likely will also see my candidate's concession speech

I am a Clark Supporter, but I was a Dean supporter first. I liked both, they were always #1 and #2 for me.

I am gearing myself up to back Kerry 100% right now. I will still vote for Clark in the California Primary, but I expect to see it a Bush v Kerry election

For me, we 100% absolutely HAVE to win this election. There will be a Supreme Court appointment, there is a war that needs to be stopped and there is an expansion doctrine that needs to be ended.

Say what you will about Kerry having PNAC ties, HE IS NOT BUSH. He will not push the PNAC agenda - I honestly beleive this.

This is a man who fervently protested Vietnam, and I truly beleive felt duped on the IWR. It may have been a political move, but I feel the man will end the war if elected.

Also, I keep saying this, but he is an insider. A lot of people owe him favors and I think he expects to cash in. Unlike Clinton, who was faught since day one by a Democratic Contress - Kerry has the connections to get his agenda pushed. That means GLBT rights. That means an end to perpetual war. That means rebuilding Social Security, and an end to the quest for privatization.

Will corporations benefit? Of course. You cannot get elected without corporate support. But like Clinton, he will write in enough support for the average Joe.

[no name no slogan]

41. Don't give up yet...

Only 10% of the delegates have been chosen. That leaves a whole lot left.

Maybe I'm optimistic (being a DK supporter, it's practically required) but this thing is FAR from over.

Remember, the 1972 race didn't finally end until California-- at the beginning of June! It was only after McGovern's victory there that he had enough to put him over the top on the first ballot-- and those delegates were challenged at the convention by Humphrey!

They started with 12 major candidates in 1972-- we started with 9 (10 if you count Graham dropping out before Clark declared). I would not be suprised if this race went all the way to the convention too.