If Kerry wins the nomination, who would you vote for?

[quinnox]

Let's say Kerry becomes the Democratic standard bearer, who would you vote for in Nov.?

[jmaier]

1. Another loyalty poll?

Do we need this much reassurance?

[daveskilt]

6. here here. These appear too often (and are premature)

and I am ABB.

[mermaid]

21. You Know Why All The Loyalty Polls, Don't You?

The reson is that Kerry supporters are poor winners. They are doing this to rub in our faces that their guy is the front-runner. If things were different right now, and my guy, Dean, were the front-runner, you'd hear the Kerry camp whining and carping about all the loyalty polls, and for the same reason!

Why an't anyone ever be a gracious winner?

I swear, these loyalty polls tick me off, because it is obvious that us Dean supporters are getting our faces rubbed in something we do not like the smell of.

[library_max]

23. I see it differently.

I think people are worried about all the "take my ball and go home" messages they are seeing about supporters of various candidates staying home, voting Green, or turning blue instead of voting Dem if Kerry is the nominee.

That said, I agree that it's counterproductive. Now is the wrong time, when people are still partisan for their candidate and emotions are still raw. But I believe it's born of panic, not smugness.

[daveskilt]

36. true

there are a lot of petulant posts. but i didnt see any of these loyalty polls when dean was the front runner. (which have been more smug - we dont need you guys)

[library_max]

44. You didn't see posts like that either.

Plenty of criticisms of Dean, not all of them fair or even decent by a long shot, but nothing like NBK, Kerry-or-Green. That may have been because it was earlier in the contest.

[Nazgul35]

58. you're kidding....right?

There was a tremendous amount of ABD activity here on DU!

Someone even came on here to promote his new website devoted to the enterprise of destroying the Dean campaign....

Further, the whinning may not have been about leaving the party or not voting, but it was similar in sound...

Remember the "Dean will lead us too a McGovernesq defeat" mantra?

Was just as much whinning, just singing a different song...

[daveskilt]

60. exactly

there were plenty of attacks on dean...more than now on Kerry. But no dean cats were posting these ABB polls. I am ABB but it is too early to give up on any candidate escept for sharpton at this point. dean could be back in this (and I hope he is to keep this race a race) with wins in wisc., maine and michigan.

[library_max]

77. ABD and NBK are not the same thing.

I've got no respect whatsoever for ABD, don't get me wrong. It is a useless and self-defeating position. It naturally leads to NBD and AB(your guy) in retaliation. Besides, Dean might still get the nomination, in which case of course we'll all want everybody to vote for him.

But my point was and is that there hasn't been any significant amount of posting to the effect that it's Kerry or nothing, Kerry or Green, Kerry or I stay home. That's the message that hurts us the most, because that's the threat people might carry out and cost us the election. If A prefers Dean to Kerry and B prefers Kerry to Dean, that's okay, because the primaries will sort all that out for us. It's the NB(my candidate) thing that spells potential disaster.

They may sound the same to you, but they aren't the same.

[Ninga]

2. Without a doubt I will vote for ABB,

but if its not my guy, I will hold my nose.

[phillybri]

3. That thing better stay at or near 100%!!!

:-)

[corporatewhore]

4. David Cobb

[bluestateguy]

5. I will be making a list

A list of people who refuse to support the Democratic nominee. I will keep the contents of that list confidential, unless the nominee loses the election by a margin such that it could be said that Green voters and stay-at-home Leftists swung the outcome to Bush. Should that I happen I will publish the list here the day after the election.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[King of New Orleans]

9. chill

People have the capacity to make their own choices and weigh the impacts of their decisions (Well, GWBush may not). Forget the lists, forget the "loyalty" pledges. Just let people be.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Put this in your list: Indiana goes for Bush in 2004!

Indiana will always go GOP, unless the GOP nominates Jacko for President!

[corporatewhore]

13. Ditto for Texas

[elperromagico]

67. Ditto for Kansas, Nebraska, Wyoming, North/South Dakota,

Virginia, Mississippi, and Oklahoma.

If those states go Democratic, I'll eat my hat.

[IrateCitizen]

31. Will you be initiating the great purge as well???

:puke:

[TakebackAmerica]

48. A reformed ABB here

I've gone from ABB to ABK back to ABB.

[lastliberalintexas]

49. As a Texan

you should realize how ridiculous your statement is. I can vote however I darn well please- my vote won't count in November anyway. Neither will yours, you know. I wouldn't want you voting under any false illusions and thinking that you actually matter in this winner take all system we have.

But please, go ahead and add me to The List of Those who Refuse to act like a Robot.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

55. then add me to it

The DLC is using ABB sentiment to try to silence anyone on the left who doesn't want a pro-war nominee. Once again, we're being taken for granted and they're acting like a 'centrist' candidate is entitled to our vote.

All I know is that if a mediocre republicrat wins in '04, we have to wait at least 8 years until we can take back our party with an open primary field.

So the threat of Bush isn't enough for me to blidly accept whoever Terry McAulliffe coughs up. I haven't decided yet how I'll vote in the fall, but don't threaten me with a loyalty blacklist.

[jonnyblitz]

63. do you realize what you sound like?

as far as blaming the people who voted green in 2000 I tend to blame whomever caused them to leave the DEMS in the first place. I know I have a hard time supporting right wingers just because they have a "D" next to their name.

[frustrated_lefty]

75. Grow up, get over it

You think a pansy ass black list you can start shakes my world?

In case you didn't notice, let me point out: I am one of those poor souls not sucked into Kerry's phoney crap.

You don't like that, well, nominate a real candidate, k?

[Tesha]

79. Why wait? Put me on your list now. (NT)

[JaneQPublic]

7. A "Nader-Trader" vote swap

That is, I'll make a deal to vote for Nader (or Green) in my state which is sure to go Dem anyway in exchange for a vote for (ugh!) Kerry by a Nader supporter in a swing state.

That way, I can avoid the soul-crushing experience of voting for "Live Shot" Kerry without helping to re-elect Bush.

[library_max]

10. Well, you know what?

Every time you make a big deal about how horrible Kerry is (presumably just because he's not Howard Dean), you are helping to re-elect Bush (or really, just elect - he wasn't elected before). You're giving aid and comfort to the idea that Kerry is bad enough to justify voting third party. There's no basis for that in his twenty-year voting record and political record.

[corporatewhore]

12. coughNAFTAGATTWTOIWRPATRIOT ACTcough

[library_max]

24. Every single senator except Russ Feingold.

Cough Cough.

[corporatewhore]

26. so what just because other senators dont have aspine doesnt mean kerry get

a pass

[library_max]

29. In other words, nobody but nobody is pure enough

except candidates who have the good fortune to not be in Congress and can therefore lie about what they "would" have done.

[JaneQPublic]

37. There are other candidates besides Senators.

Besides, history shows Senators very rarely get elected as president anyway.

[library_max]

45. Dean is on record

suggesting something very much like the PATRIOT ACT immediately after 9/11.

[corporatewhore]

38. I am a Kucinich fan

[JaneQPublic]

16. Was that also true when Dean was the frontrunner?

Back when almost all the other candidates and their supporters were constantly banging on Dean?

God, the hypocricy from you people is so thick you couldn't cut through it with a chain saw.

[library_max]

27. I've stuck up for Dean more times than I can count.

It's important to be careful about "you people" and similar phrases.

I think you would have to search very hard for messages from Kerry supporters saying that they would vote Green, etc., instead of voting for Dean, from any time period on DU.

[rucky]

20. "Aid & Comfort"

heh

[JaneQPublic]

22. "Aid & Comfort": What Patton said Fonda & Kerry gave to the Viet Cong (nt)

[library_max]

30. Oooooooh, guilt by association.

I stand rebuked.
:cry:

[Tesha]

82. It's curious...

Every time you make a big deal about how horrible Kerry is (presumably just because
he's not Howard Dean), you are helping to re-elect Bush (or really, just elect - he wasn't
elected before). You're giving aid and comfort to the idea that Kerry is bad enough to
justify voting third party.

It's curious how this principle didn't seem to apply
when Howard Dean was the front runner and was
being pilloried mercilessly here.

Tesha

[Renew Deal]

14. Anyone not voting for Kerry is a Bush voter.

It's that simple.

[OhioStateProgressive]

17. voter intimidation is illegal(nt)

[library_max]

32. Voter intimidation?????

What did Bleachers7 do? Pull a gun on you? Threaten your cat? Take a dump on your lawn?

No, implied that you might be morally equivalent to a Bush voter - a description that is going to fit pretty nearly half of the U.S. voting public no matter how this thing shakes out. That's not intimidation. Try flinching less.

[OhioStateProgressive]

35. don't argue with me

i am not playing your game

if a person votes for the Green Candidate they are voting for the GREEN candidate...not for George Bush, spin it any way you like, rephrase it any way you like

by trying to impose guilt or imply blame on someone for voting the way you don't like is voter intimidation

[library_max]

46. Oh, I'm sorry.

You're right and we're wrong. Because you say so. Sorry, I forgot.

[OhioStateProgressive]

57. if 2+2 doesn't equal 5, then voting for Green candidate isn't voting Repub

[library_max]

78. And again, the proof is that you say so.

I am properly rebuked.

[Renew Deal]

59. Are you scared?

I'm not trying to intimidate you. You can do anything you want.

[IndianaGreen]

18. Kerry voted for NAFTA

Why should workers that lost their jobs to NAFTA be required to sign the ABB pledge for a candidate that put the screws on them?

[corporatewhore]

25. Thats why i call him the Raw Deal

[library_max]

43. What's your alternative to NAFTA?

As we can all see, American corporations do not need NAFTA or any similar document to relocate jobs to China, India, southeast Asia, etc. It's easy to carp about NAFTA, much harder to come up with a practicable way of curbing the abuses of globalization. And Kerry has said many times that NAFTA and the WTO need fixing.

[IndianaGreen]

50. Repeal NAFTA, and pull out of WTO

How about them apples?

[JVS]

51. mmmm tasty apples

[corporatewhore]

53. Very much!!!!!!

[IrateCitizen]

28. No, it isn't that simple

Anyone not voting for Kerry is doing just that -- not voting for Kerry. Unless they actually vote for Bush, they are not a Bush voter.

I'm still planning to pull the (D) lever in Nov. regardless, but this incredible twisting of fact coupled with intimidation has just got to stop. It does nothing to win people to your side, and can only serve to alienate in the end.

I suggest you check out How to Win Friends and Influence People to find a better way than derision and intimidation.

[JVS]

40. Let me pose a question to you

Would you prefer that those 25% up there vote for Bush or vote for the Green party? Anyone who can't distinguish the Greens from the Republicans is fooling themself.

[Tesha]

80. Actually, 1/2 a Bush voter.

People who vote for someone other than the candidates of the
two major parties have the mathematical effect of casting 1/2
a vote for each of the two major candidates.

Tesha

[mvd]

15. Definitely Kerry

Maybe in another election I'd make a statement about Dean's treatment by writing Dean in, but not this time. Plus, I do like Kerry.

[beyurslf]

19. abb

[lifelong_Dem]

33. Idiocy on the left

Boy, I sure am looking forward to four more years of Bush* and the PNAC running things because 30% of politically active progressives decide to throw a temper tantrum because their guy doesn't win the primaries.

Bunch of whiny, spoiled brats.

[Minstrel Boy]

39. loyalty polls such as this incite "disloyal" responses

I doubt this will reflect election day reality. It's people pissed off at the presumption that they'll shut up and do as they're told.

[Bonobo]

81. 100% correct...and now I'll "vote"

[lifelong_Dem]

34. double post

deleted

[HFishbine]

41. You've poisoined the Green choice

Adding a "because" to the Green choice taints it as a possible answer.

[bowens43]

42. Kerry but I'm not ABB

[FubarFly]

47. Undecided.

Kerry must convince me he is acting in the interests of the people, and not the power elite. If the DLC agenda goes unchallenged, the Democratic Party will complete it's transformation into a subsidiary of the Republican. One Party rule is arguably worse than four more years of b*sh. If the system is gamed, then your vote is truly irrelevant. I can't support a system where the politicans can promise the people anything, but, with the occasional bone aside, have no incentive to respond to anything other than the wishes of the powerbrokers of the corporate oligarchy. Our Democracy must be restored, and this can only happen if the politicians are held accountable by the people.

[anti-NAFTA]

52. I will STAY HOME - screw Kerry

He wants to create a new education system where community service is worth as much as academic work. Kinda sounds like the Hitler program...

He wants to put American industries out of business by allowing Canada to dump its products on our markets and Mexico to steal our jobs.

He wants to spy on us and label us however the DoHS feels it should label us as. This is a way to control the opposition.

He wants to stay in Iraq.

He accepts special interest money but lies about it.



He is unelectable because: He exploits his military experience and has become an embarrassment by doing so. Why should the fact that he served in Vietnam have anything to do with his job as President? Did F D Roosevelt need "combat experience"? Did James Madison? Why are we setting these dangerous precedents on ourselves??

He is also unelectable because he voted against the first Gulf War which was a success. Unfortunately he voted for the Second Gulf War, which is a colossal failure.

He is also unelectable because he wants to raise gas taxes so working families can shell out more cash at the gas stations.

He is also unelectable because he wants to cripple American-based industries with more "environmental" regulation and minimum wage-increases which only aggravates the outsourcing situations. How the fuck does he plan to keep American jobs if he is crippling the manufacturers WHILE sticking it to the workers by signing free trade deals?



He's just a despicable guy. My heart left the race when Gephardt was thrown out due to the CNN propaganda campaign that "Gephardt is an old face and has a 'negative' message"

[BurtWorm]

54. Where's "None of your business"?

;)

Seriously, some of us aren't prepared to know what we're going to do in that event.

[Qutzupalotl]

56. Clark supporter for Kerry in this case.

Kerry's pretty good. Certainly much better than Bush. I just think we can do better. I'm not certain Kerry will win, for starters. Clark, on the other hand, will demolish Bush in the debates, make him tremble and sweat, then go on to win in a huge Democratic landslide.

[MaddogTerp]

61. Dean as Green, I hope

or maybe just sit it out.

Kerry as Bushie LIte doesn't get my vote.

[progressiverealist]

62. if this poll is representative , then it's a Bush landslide in 2004

and Jeb in 2008. It looks like Kerry will *probably* be the nominee. If so, Bush has it locked up as long as DU is representative of potential dem voters nationally.

Hopefully, it is not.

ABB for me.

[The Magistrate]

70. It Is Not Representative Of The Democratic Electorate, Sir

It is not even particularly representative of the membership of this forum. The shrillest have more energy, and it is necessary that such keep the mouth working lest the brain begin to: there is a sort of auto-hypnosis at work in those who convince themselves the best way to demonstrate commitment to left values is to act in a way that will bring material benefit to the worst elements of reaction.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[maxr4clark]

64. You should have split out Kerry into two choices:

Kerry -- he is the best candidate, and
Kerry -- ABB.

[iamjoy]

65. Not Vote? Think!

OK, I don't really like Kerry, but I will vote for the Democratic nominee, regardless of who wins the primary.

If you are thinking of staying home, I encourage you to think about whether the Democrats are really so different than the Repugnant-cans that it makes no difference. Would we really have been no better off with Bush #41 in 92 or Dole in 96?

If Clinton had lost in 1992, we wouldn't have had FMLA. How many workers have benefited from this?

If Gore had gotten the White House in 2000, the "gag rule" never would have been reinstated.

Now, I will admit, sometimes it is hard to tell the Dems from the Repugnant-cans. Clinton signed that B.S. "Defense of Marriage Act" He vetoed a bill to deregulate or undo some S.E.C. provisions, the bill passed despite his veto (some Democrats supported it) - had this bill not been passed it is unlikely we would have had a disaster like the Enron/Arthur Andersen debacle.

Most mainstream politicians take contributions from one special interest or another, whether corporate America or Pro-Choice groups or environmental groups. I admire the idealism of people who stand fast about the way politics should be in America, but that is not the way things are. I still trust the Democrats more than the Repugnant-cans, but the change must come slowly. If that sounds like choosing the lesser of two evils, I repeat again, gradual change is best.

But the main reason I plan to vote straight Democrat in the next election is this (three words)

THE SUPREME COURT

There was a great article here on DU a week or so ago called "Judicial Halitosis" I encourage everyone thinking of not voting Democrat to read it. I think it likely there will be a Supreme Court vacancy in the next five years, who do you want filling it? I don't think we can count on Dubya making a "mistake" like his father and appointing a Souter, we'd get another Scalia or Renquist.

If reproductive freedom is important to you, if fair and equal treatment for homosexuals is important to you, why would you help Bush win the White House?

[Padraig18]

66. Kerry, of course.

4 more years of * is completely unacceptable.

[Piperay]

68. Kerry of course,

sigh. This is the last one of these loyalty polls I am answering. :argh:

[Sean Reynolds]

69. 3rd Party - that simple.

Don't like it, I don't care.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

71. Things are looking up here. eom

[NV1962]

72. But what if a majority of people write in Osama? What about Mickey Mouse?

:shrug:

[oasis]

73. Maybe only 2 of the 3 new Justices to the Supreme Court will be rightwing

[Cascadian]

74. Kerry reluctantly

If he gets the nomination, I will vote for him however, I will not invest any of my money in his campaign nor will I post up any signs or wear any buttons. I do not think he can win unless he starts getting tough towards Bush and prod him on his military record and maybe apologize for supporting Bush's Iraq invasion. Also, DO NOT pick Evan Bayh as a VP!


John

[juajen]

76. Really folks, this is a no-brainer

Didn't we get enough Nadercide in 2000?

[Tesha]

83. Apparently not.

The Democrats have again made it perfectly clear
that the left doesn't matter.

So some of us will return the favor in November.

Tesha