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herbbrown Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:54 AM
Original message
It's Why I Still Love Ralph
Great Democracy Now show on today about the Israel/Hezbollah massacre of everyday citizens mostly in Lebanon. Ralph Nader is on and is making some great points on how the media has totally manipulated as well as others like Hillary Clinton preaching her inflammatory rhetoric. Ralph is honest (he's Lebanese) about the situation, and like most other things is a book on the subject. How I wish Ralph Nader would become a Democrat, he's a much better human being than Hillary Clinton.
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herbbrown Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. http://www.democracynow.org/
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. He's such a great human being...
That he helped stick us with Shrubbie for 8 years...

"Not a Dimes worth of difference"

Bullshit...
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herbbrown Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Don't Listen to whether he's
going to get your corporate crony in office, listen to the show and measure his response on this matter to Hillary's, go ahead I dare you to listen and think before making kneejerk responses: http://www.democracynow.org/
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I have...
I agree with the Clinton/Feingold/Clark position on this matter.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
43. Nader destroyed any and all credibility he ever had.
He was happy to let * win in 2000 because after all, "Gore would have been just as bad, or worse."

Then in 2004 he continued it, with his allies posting outright lies against Kerry to try to undermine Kerry in some of the areas he is as liberal as anyone you could possibly put in office.

Fuck Nader. He proved he does NOT have the better interests of the world at heart. Why would I listen to him on anything anymore? (and yes it's a shame, because he once did good work. I hear Christopher Hitchens was once a liberal, too. People change, and not always for the better. Get over it.)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. If by nothing to do with it,
you mean "It wouldn't have happened had it not been for him", then you're right.

If Nader had not run in 2000, George W. Bush would never have become president of the United States, and e.g. the Iraq War would never have happened.

Yes, there are lots of other "if only's" that would have achieved that too, but Nader is one of them.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. BS. Gore won, and the Democratic Party let the sheeple let it go.
When you country is taken illegitimately, by a gang of thugs, you do something about it.

Trying to pin the coup on Nader is like blaming the Coast Guard for Katrina.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Hardly...
Katrina was an act of God...Nader trying to defeat the Democratic Candidate was a concious decision on his part.

Well he got what he wanted!

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. And he had as much effect on the election as the Coast Guard had
on Katrina. I'd like to know why you apparently give the Democratic Party a pass on allowing a coup to take place here in the United States?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. It is very simple...
The race in Florida would not have gone to the Supreme Court, would not have been as close, had Ralph Nader not DISHONESTLY said "there's not a dimes worth of difference" bettwen Bush and Gore.

There are many factors that cause an election outcome. Some are controllable, some are not. Ralph Nader chose to cost Al Gore votes...and he did. Had he not, Gore would have won Florida.

The Democratic Party did not cost Al Gore the election. Those human entities that made a concious choice to deny the election to Gore were Republican Party, Kathryn Harris, The Supreme Court of the United States, and Ralph Nader. Had any one of the these behaved honestly, Gore would still be President.

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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. Personally I'd like to see Hillary and Ralph in a cage match to the
death.

Oh, and Ralph? Have your affairs in order. :rofl:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. The Greens were right all along.
God bless Ralph Nader!

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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. "There is no difference between Bush and Gore" is right?!?
Myself along with 85% of Nader 2000 voters realized how WRONG Nader was once we had a few years of Bush. Katrina, Iraq, ALito etc. would have happened if Gore was President? Yeah right.
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Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. pre-9/11 bush/gore who agreed 52 times in one debate?
yes, there was little difference.
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. So Gore would have given us Alito, picked his ass during Katrina,
given Halliburton the keys to Iraq, vetoed stem cell research, etc, etc, etc?

I'll have to disagree with you there.
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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
42. It was the same Gore
I used to tell Nader supporters that the difference between Bush and Gore was literally a matter of life and death to some. Not so much to the Nader voters, but there would be people who would die if Bush were elected who would have survived a Gore term. I had no idea the numbers that would be involved, believe me. I didn't anticipate things being nearly as bad as they are, but a lifetime of experience told me that even if you believe Gore was was the lesser of two evils, less evil is better and that's life and death to vulnerable people.

You didn't have to experience this to know the difference.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. But don't you know that
"lesser of two evils" means you aren't "voting your conscience" and that's evil?

:sarcasm:

I use to like the Greens but there is a lot they can do to help make things better, and undermining major Dem candidates against awful Repubs is not one of them.

Work for instant run-off or other better electoral systems to get rid of the spoiler effect, THEN they can run candidates - and I would almost certainly even vote for them on occasion, as long as I know my second vote will go to the next lesser evil. (Cuz face it, they are ALL only "lesser evils" unless they: agree with all my positions, are intellectually brilliant enough to find workable solutions in all areas, and have the interpersonal skills and connections to actually achieve their promises. Closest I've come to that is Kerry, and he damned sure isn't perfect, so I guess that makes him a "lesser evil" too, next to that mythical perfect candidate.)
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. Ralph lost my respect in 2000 and
earned my hatred in 2004. He will NEVER redeem himself in my eyes.

zalinda
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. Nader has no credibility.
He should find someone else to say whatever he's saying now, because he blew it as far as getting people to listen to him.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. thank you
EXACTLY what I think - I simply no longer care to hear what that man has to say
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
39. I disagree, also Nader was spot on ...
about both parties being in the pockets of Big Business.

Nader has my utmost respect. The greens didn't lose the Presidency in 2000: Gore could have done more by using Clinton and trying to negotiate more with Nader. He was too distant in 2000 but Gore does look very ON point now. :hi:
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
50. Absolutely...he has made himself a marginal figure...
Who latches on to high profile issues to keep his name in the paper...
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
9. The Supreme Court gave the WH to the Bush junta, not Nader.
I didn't vote for Nader, I voted for Gore, but with tremendous reluctance, because I believed a lot of what Nader was saying about Corporate Rule. NAFTA was signed into law by Clinton, not by a Republican. Clinton broke his campaign promise to insure labor and environmental protections in NAFTA. He signed it without any such protections. Because of that, NAFTA resulted in the stark impoverishment that we see in Mexico and other poor countries today (the reason for the increase in immigration), and the wholesale destruction of third world countries' environment in the greedy grab of natural resources. NAFTA also laid the groundwork for the outsourcing of millions and millions of U.S. jobs, as the Corporatists seek to destroy all decent wages and labor protections.

Democrats did this. Not Republicans.

NAFTA is paradigm of the Democratic Party's collusion with the Corporate Rulers. There is also the WTO--a giveaway of American sovereignty, and trade polices that have absolutely devastated third world countries everywhere. (The huge Leftist uprising in Latin America now is all about NAFTA and the WTO.) Given this history, it is no surprise what happened next: Dem Party leaders' collusion with a fascist coup.

And here is some of the evidence of this collusion and corruption of our party leadership:

SILENCE. UTTER SILENCE as Bushite corporations took over our election system with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, and virtually no audit/recount controls, in the Tom Delay/Bob Ney/Christopher Dodd-engineered, new, electronic election theft system. Not only that, virtually ALL Dem Senators in the Anthrax Congress voted FOR this end-of-democracy legislation (the "Help America Vote For Bush Act" of 2002), with only two exceptions (and you'll be surprised at who they are--Hillary Clinton!* and Charles Schumer).

COLLUSION on the invasion of Iraq. HALF of the Dem Senators voted to give George Bush war powers (in essence, violating the Constitution which restricts war declarations to Congress). They lie about it now, and say they were lied to, or didn't mean blanket war powers. All bullshit. THESE DEM LEADERS WANTED A MIDEAST WAR AS MUCH AS THE BUSH JUNTA DID. And look at their votes since! Billions and billions and billions of unaccountable dollars to Donald Rumsfeld. During the '04 campaign, Kerry didn't oppose the war--which was opposed at that point by nearly 60% of the American people. He wanted to do a MORE EFFICIENT war. That's what he said (in essence). He also said nothing--NOTHING!--about the immorality and illegality of torturing prisoners. People voted for him because Bush was worse. (Notably, 125 Dem Senators and House members voted AGAINST the Iraq War resolution--a great leap forward from 1964 and the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, when only 2 in the entire Congress voted against LBJ's horrible war on Vietnam. Still, the Dem leadership was gungho on the Iraq War, and has only been PLAY-ACTING at being against it now!)

COLLUSION NOW, on the widening Mideast war--kneejerk support of Israeli war crimes**, after 3 years of basically supporting AMERICAN war crimes. That's our Democrats--or the main leadership anyway.

-----------------

Ralph Nader KNEW. He knew what Corporate wusses they are! And he had every right--and even a duty--to run for president and SAY SO. He was Paul Revere!

Those who say HE lost the election for Gore are not looking at this situation realistically. The SUPREME COURT gave the election to Bush, even though Gore WON. And they would have done that--and Bushites would have stolen that election--NO MATTER WHAT RALPH NADER DID. If Nader had NOT been on the ballot in some states, they would have just STOLEN MORE VOTES. They are thugs now, and they were thugs then! Thieves! Criminals! They would have done ANYTHING to win.

They've stolen TWO elections since then--the first in '02, with the first Diebold systems (for instance, in Georgia, where Dem Max Cleland had a 10% lead going in, and SHOULD HAVE WON that Senate seat). And they just wholesale stole '04, with Diebold/ES&S systems by then all over the country. And Bush lost the '04 election so bad, they had to engage in open, blatant violations of the Voting Rights Act in Ohio, to SUPPLEMENT the electronic theft (which occurred all over the country--as they manufactured Bush's popular majority and tweaked a couple of close battleground states to set up Bush's Electoral College win).

This later history INFORMS the earlier history. It is wrong thinking--and results in bad strategy--to blame it on Nader. You could just as well say that if the goddamned Democrats had LISTENED to Nader--and to other anti-corporate voices--the Dems WOULD HAVE WON '00 by a landslide. It was the Dem leaders' own damn fault that they didn't! (And I think Al Gore knows that now--he has finally separated from the Clinton/DLC faction, and come into his own as a thinker and leader.)

We REALLY ARE seeing a Republicrat Party running the country now--all of it illegitimately (s)elected by Diebold/ES&S, two far righwing, Bushite corporations that are now "tabulating" ALL OF OUR VOTES with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code! They (s)elect the Democrats who can win primaries (corporatists, warmongers). They (s)elect a MAJORITY in Congress that is clearly operating against the wishes and interests of the majority of the American people. They are completely ignoring the polls (70% opposition to Bushism!), and their letterboxes and all protests. They DON'T CARE! They are no longer beholden to US.

Nader was RIGHT! And if he had had mystical foresight, he could have told us just what the CORPORATIST Supreme Court would do, just what the war profiteering corporate news monopolies would do (--SUPPRESS the story that Gore WON), and just what the Democratic Party leadership would do after 9/11 (cave in to the Bush junta on ALL POINTS--on war powers, on civil rights, on torture, on no bid contracts for Halliburton, on the Diebold/ES&S election theft system, and on many fascist economic policies).

It's not Nader's fault that the Democratic leaders are bought and paid for Corporatists and war supporters. All he could do was cry the alarm, and his piddling little portion of the vote made no difference. The thugs and fascists were determined upon a coup. The Dems were already so compromised they couldn't stop it, and many didn't even want to.

--------------------------

*(I'm still mystified by this Hillary Clinton vote against HAVA. I don't know what to make of it. It is NOT consistent with her other votes and policies. Possibly it's a New York thing--a lot of resistance there to the Diebold/ES&S takeover. If anyone can enlighten me about this--H's reasons for voting against HAVA (and her position now on fraudulent electronic voting systems)--I'd be grateful. I was dead set against her until I reviewed HAVA's history and discovered her lonely (with Schumer) opposition to this election theft coup. It opened a small crack in my anti-Hillary belief system. Interestingly, I have held the position that Hillary WILL BE Diebolded into office in '08--that she has already made a deal with the Dark Lords (who want HER and the Dems to take all the flak (civil unrest, etc.) when Bush war/economic policy hits the fan--and that we had better get used to it, and figure out how to pressure Hillary on ELECTION REFORM. I'd calculated that she has to, at least, pay lip service to good government policy--such as TRANSPARENT elections--and that we might save our democracy that way. THEN I found out about her vote against HAVA! After I had said this, and had presented this strategy. Kind of weird. In any case, I DO think that we--the Left, the representatives of the majority of Americans--are going to have to deal with fraudulent (s)elections for some time to come. Do we split off from the Dems? I don't think that would be wise. Germany 1933 is too scary a precedent. (Fracturing of the center/left paved the way for Hitler's rise. I.e., G. Bush may not be the worst that the fascist cabal intends to inflict us with.)

**(It's my theory that Israel's current war is Plan B of the NeoCon/PNAC agenda. With 70% of the American people against the Iraq War/Occupation (and a recent poll showing EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT opposition to U.S. participation in a wider Mideast war), and Europe, Russia and China all balking both at Iraq and at a wider war, the Bush junta went to Plan B: get Israel to do it. And Israel's crazy leadership was more than willing. This way, the Bush junta can slide the U.S. into it sideways--through some Gulf of Tonkin type incident, or as occupiers. The goal is mainly invasion of Syria and Iran, and U.S. domination of the entire Middle East. But the U.S. at this point = the Bush Cartel. And the Bush Cartel has only one motivator: MONEY! So they will hang Israel out to dry without a thought--if their buds, the Saudi sultans and the bin Ladens, want them to. That's really who is running U.S. foreign policy. Israel has made a "pact with the Devil" in joining up with the Bush junta fascists.)



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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Without Nader thare would have been no SCOTUS vote.
Gore would have won Florida outright on election night and that would have been that.
You can go on and on about how wrong the Democrats are but here are two facts.

No Nader = No Bush 43.
No Bush 43 = No Iraq War.

Now, go back to your regularly scheduled Nader apologisting.
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Debs Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. What do you guys think
That a democrat is ENTITLED to my vote? That just becuase I would rather put out my eye with a red hot poker than vote for a Republican I am OBLIGATED to vote for the democrat? If Gore had not picked anti labor pro corporate Lieberman for VP he could have gotten my vote but NADER was saying the things that resonated with ME. Instead of looking at that and deciding if they want to be Republicans lite or get votes like mine I listen to this nonsense about how Dems are entitled to my vote. If we had a somewhat progressive candidate Nader wouldnt have been necessary. We have seen the country ruled by two wings of the business party. We got tired of it. We watched dems move toward the middle while the rightwing moved the middle to the right. The only vote I waste is on a candidate I dont believe in. If dems want my vote they can put up slate worth voting for and not tell me well we arent as bad as the other guys. I sent a message with my vote for Nader (I live in a state that wasnt going to go dem anyway) Did the dems listen? Or did they denigrate me by telling me Bush was my fault. Hey, if dems couldnt put someone up who could beat this semi literate lying charicature of Forrest Gump its not my fault they have no right to demand I vote for them.Bush isnt my fault and Bush isnt Naders fault. Bush is the fault of the media that would shamelessly attack Jesus Christ if he ran as a democrat and gullible people who buy the rightwing spin along with lying shameless GOP zombies. Stop with the circular firing squads. All progressives are on the side of the Angels. Nader IS a good man who has done more good for this country than most politicians and doesnt deserve this demonization because Dems couldnt beat Gump by a large enough margin to stop the Republicans from stealing the election
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
46. The Kool-Aid drinkers aren't limited to just one side.. n/t
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. No Nader = Karl's Vote Counting Formula B = B ush 43
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
31. What part of corporate coup escapes you?
If Mrs. Nader had aborted little Ralph, we still would have shrub.
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Then what are you doing here if we
are such a bad lot. I'm sure the Naderites will welcome you with open arms.

The truth is that Nader ran in SWING states. If he had only run in safe states I wouldn't have had a problem with him. Then he ran AGAIN in swing states in 2004 and TOOK repub money to do it. Don't tell me what a prophet he is when he dances with the devil.

zalinda
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Debs Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. THAT
Is a reasonable criticism. I agree with it. I know his reasoning but it isnt good enough. That was a mistake in my opinion
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Ralph is a douche, but he was a statistical nonissue in 00 + 04
Edited on Thu Jul-20-06 10:55 PM by LincolnMcGrath
Dems need to move on and stop chasing the windmill that is Nader.



2000

Ralph Nader Winona LaDuke --- Green 2,883,105 ..........2.73%

Patrick Buchanan Ezola Foster --- Reform 449,225 ..........0.43%

Harry Browne Art Olivier Libertarian --- 384,516 ..........0.36%

Other ------------------ 236,593 ..........0.22%


1992

H. Ross Perot James Stockdale --- Independent 19,743,821 ..........18.91%

Andre Marrou Nancy Lord --- Libertarian 290,087 ..........0.28%

Other ----------------- 375,659 ..........0.36%


1912

Theodore Roosevelt Hiram Johnson --- Progressive 4,122,721 ..........27.40%

Eugene Debs Emil Seidel --- Socialist 901,551 ..........5.99%

Eugene Chafin Aaron Watkins --- Prohibition 208,157 ..........1.38%

Other ---------------- 33,880 ..........0.23%
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. I heard it. Ralph went on and on about what a bad leader Bush is and
I couldn't help but think, "Then why did you not help to defeat him when it could have done some good instead of accepting money from him to take votes from Al Gore????"
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AJH032 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Ralph Nader?
You mean the guy who accepted large numbers of Republican signatures to get on the ballot in many states, and then accepted money from strictly pro-Bush groups as well? That guy? Sorry, I'd prefer Hillary over Nader.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Dooga dooga dooga!
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
18. And Igor still loves Dr. Frankenstein.
Ain't love swell? :loveya:
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. Nader used to be a Democrat.
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theanarch Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. always was, and still is...
St. Ralph's problem is that, while he almost always says the right things, he almost always never does them. I saw him at a rather intimate fundraiser in Princeton (NJ) in late 2003, where he explained his rationale for running in '04: to teach Democrats how to do it. Had Kerry/Edwards (and every House and Senate candidate as well) run on Nader's platform, the DP could have won the election in a landslide...instead, just like Gore/Leiberman in '00, they chose to remain faithful to the DLC, Republican-lite platform...and deservedly lost on it. As a personality, just about everything said about Nader being a prissy control-freak is true; i'd also add he's duplicituous, ungrateful, dictatorial, and an elitist with a martyr complex...yet, for all that, he still has a better grasp of issues and solutions than 99% of the Democratic Party, Dean included. Quite a contradiction, isn't it? And for the record, Nader was NOT the Green Party presidential candidate in '04--David Cobb was. And if it will make Nader-haters feel any better, that convention thoroughly wrecked the GP.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Ralph is also correct
If the dems ran on the platform Ralph ran on -- they would start winning!

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
54. Nader was not the GP candidate BUT
he STILL ran as an independent and his surrogates STILL lied about Kerry.

Kerry was and is the most liberal candidate you can possibly elect in this country in this time period. He had to run on a platform that appealed to a majority of the country (and it did, except for two things: many people were not allowed to vote, and many others were swayed by fear of "terra" and the repukes successful campaign against Kerry's substantial cred in that arena).

Nader could have gotten behind Kerry and done whatever he could to help (including shut up if that was what would help most) but no, then Nader wouldn't be getting the limelight. Everything else you said about Nader is probably true. If he had some ethics and/or put public service ahead of his ego, perhaps many of us would still see him as a great man.
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Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. Hell, even Gore is OK with Ralph now
I think Al's move to the left since 2000 showed him the need to reconnect with his roots.

If Al is at a place where he can work with Ralph, I think it's irrational to keep holding grudges past this point.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. why do you say that?
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. That's bull. Nader personally took revenge out on Gore for shunning him
once, and as a result of Nader's revenge, Gore got fucked, so I highly doubt Al Gore will ever be OK with Nader.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
44. It's not a "grudge"
Once burned, and all that.

In this case, twice burned (and more) because Nader was back at his lame-ass shit in 2004, taking GOP $$$ and spreading lies about the Democratic candidate for President. Many people knew better than to listen to Nader himself, but how many decent progressives were swayed from supporting Kerry by LIES spread by Nader surrogates?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
26. An introduction of him on CSPAN was pretty strange.
Edited on Fri Jul-21-06 01:17 AM by AtomicKitten
He was introducing an independent candidate. He himself was introduced as "proof that voting for Lieberman in 2000 was wrong." This was in reference to Lieberman turning into what he is now, but I don't think retroactive dispensation really applies. Of the myriad of reasons Bush TOOK office in 2000, Ralph was one of them. They also failed to mention he accepted GOP assistance and cash in an obvious attempt to split the liberal vote, and that Ralph was fine with it. Politics makes strange bedfellows and Ralph made it clear whose wang he was prepared to wax to get to that magic number of 5% in order to qualify for matching federal funding. He lost. So did we.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
35. I don't really care for him but I DO think he has some good points
on the current Middle Eastern crisis. Unfortunately I am one of those who believe that if he had not run we would not be in the position we are now in so it is a little hypocritical of him to criticize Bush.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
36. Ralph Nader is not Lebanese. he's American.
I can't stand the dude, but at least get the basics right.
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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
37. Talk, talk, talk
Anyone can say wonderful things. He's not responsible for any policy decisions and he played a part in creating the world we're in. All I want to hear from him is that he'll shut up now.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-21-06 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
40. What a dumbass thread, using Nader to as a means of bashing Clinton
he's a much better human being than Hillary Clinton


Nader has some good qualities and some horrid ones. The guy is no angel.

The only reason you even posted this "news" about Nader was so you could end your post by taking a shot at Hillary, a lame one at that.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
48. How I wish Nader would just go away.
The sum of Ralph Nader and his vile stupidity was the claim that there was no difference between Bush and Gore. For that morally criminal Repuke propaganda, he deserves eternity in hell.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. A M E N . . .
I totally agree. He was a factor that ENABLED the Republicans to bring this country to ruin.

I have tried to stay away from this thread, but every time it pops back up to the top, I get more and more aggravated.

With all due respect to the author of the OP, the level of delusion it took to even type the title of this thread must be astronomical. Either that, or you have no respect for the feelings of thise of us who have had to live in the situation Ralph helped put us in. Either way, please, no more! Love Ralph? Write him an e-mail and tell HIM. I can't take one more of these threads without bursting a blood vessel.

TC
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. Ditto...
Ralph Nader is an egotistical, self centered, selfish jerk who cares only about himself. He used voters who supported him to get attention and feed his ego and bask in the limelight. I feel sorry for those who still think he gives a damn about them. They remind me of abused spouses who get abused and beaten but still stick up for and find excuses for the abuser. Ralph Nader cares about Ralph Nader. And if he gets the opportunity to do more damage to this country he will as long as it gets him lots of attention. His ego is massive. Jerk.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. He has, imo, as big a
Narcissistic Personality Disorder as George W. Bush does. And, he's just as delusional. WHat makes it almost worse is, he has a great brain, while W is a buffon. He should know better. Just goes to show, it isn't the stupidity, stupid... it's the delusions of grandeur.

TC
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. In that sense he is worse than GWB
because at least GW is a moron. And what kills me is that Nader started out as a great consumer advocate. Unfortunately, history won't remember him for that.
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
55. The megalomaniac can go Fuck himself
Pompous, jackass, megalomaniac bears almost as much responsibility as SCOTUS for shrub. He has the blood of thousands on his hands. Fuck him.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
56. I'm locking this thread
Reason:

Flamebait
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