I am disappointed. John Kerry is not my friend :(

[Brian_Expat]

A very unfortunate quote:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/02/05/sjc_affirms_gay_marriage/

Saying that "separate is seldom, if ever, equal," four of the high court's seven justices said that the civil-unions bill produced by the state Senate would not pass muster under the court's Nov. 18 gay marriage ruling, which found the state's prohibition of gay marriage unconstitutional.

"For no rational reason the marriage laws of the Commonwealth discriminate against a defined class; no amount of tinkering with language will eradicate that stain," said the court's advisory opinion. "The bill would have the effect of maintaining and fostering a stigma of exclusion that the Constitution prohibits."

. . . snip. . .

Kerry, now leading in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, said yesterday: "I believe the right answer is civil unions. I oppose gay marriage and disagree with the Massachusetts court's decision."

So John Kerry thinks that me and other gay people should be, in the words of the SJC, "stained" as a "discriminated against class" with a "stigma of exclusion"?

Is this really the best the supposed front-running Democrat can do? Pander to the Republicans on one of their hot-button hate issues? Why isn't John Kerry going on the offensive and attacking the GOP, rather than attacking gay people with rhetoric saying that we shouldn't be equal?

[Mobius]

1. Don't worry, when the polls show gay people are mad

he'll sing a different tune.

[blm]

84. Gay activist leaders are WITH Kerry on this it seems:

in an article in today's Washington Post regarding the Massachusetts Supreme Court Ruling and 2004 electoral politics.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14078-2004Feb4.html

>>>>>>>
"I think it's a very thin line," said Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. "They pushed the anti-gay agenda hard in '92 and it blew up in the first President Bush's face." Foreman and other supporters of same-sex marriage contend that there is now the same chance of backlash.

Gay and lesbian leaders are backing up that hope with some clear-eyed politics: They have not called on Kerry or the other Democrats to embrace the Massachusetts court's decision. Kerry's attempted straddle of the issue -- for civil unions, against court-ordered marriage rights -- will continue to pass muster with his base, several gay rights activists said.

Realizing that Bush is hearing fresh demands from social conservatives that he push a constitutional amendment, the groups did not fault Democratic candidates for trying to shade toward the middle.

"With terrorism, the economy and health care on the agenda, gay marriage is not the most important issue on any public opinion survey," Foreman said. "What we will expect the Democratic nominee to do is to come out strongly against scapegoating gay people and against amending our constitutions -- federal or state -- to enshrine our second-class citizenship."

[Brian_Expat]

102. "Gay leaders"

HRC, which is quoted extensively in that article, endorsed Alphonse D'Amato for Senate in NY a few years back. I don't really look to them for "leadership."

[IndianaGreen]

106. No one elected these gay "leaders"

and it would be a mistake for Democrats to take GLBTs for granted, or to think of them as a monolith.

[dsc]

123. Funny when I brought up this precise same point

in regards to Dean's position in Vermont you gave it no weight at all. Why, all of the sudden, do these leaders not asking politicians to take positions matter?

[mzmolly]

141. "Kerry's attempted straddle of the issue" John Kerry, the great STRADDLER

*

[corporatewhore]

2. like ive been sayin kerry isnt the real deal but the Raw Deal

I wonder if people would support him if he said "I believe the right answer is civil unions. I oppose marriage between a white and a nonwhite and disagree with the Massachusetts court's decision."
SAME FUCKING DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mobius]

4. I totally hear what you are saying.

And I applaud the Massachusetts Supreme Court decision.

[creativelcro]

56. He'll say anything

[lcordero]

3. He's wrong to oppose gay marriage

Gay marriage has hardly been tried. Straight marriage, OTOH, is a failed institution and should be banned. BTW...I am serious.

[Mobius]

5. A Kerry gaffe in the making????

Yeah what a fine American Institution straight marriage is! HAHAHAHA

[Jawja]

45. I Agree!

If the puke right-wingers want to "protect" marriage, they should start with the heterosexuals who can't make it work. If an amendment to the constitution MUST be the way to go, they should outlaw divorce and make adultry a federal crime.

I'm not advocating this of course; but it is hypocritical to "protect" marriage from gays and lesbians when there are too many heterosexuals that don't take their vows seriously. By the way, lots of them are in the Repuke Party.

[LeahMira]

76. Are homosexual couples more serious about their relationships?

... it is hypocritical to "protect" marriage from gays and lesbians when there are too many heterosexuals that don't take their vows seriously. By the way, lots of them are in the Repuke Party.

I can't disagree with you about heterosexual marriages, but I wonder if there are any numbers about gay couples who split up after many years or who cheat on their partners.

I certainly don't think homosexual couples are necessarily doing any worse than heterosexual couples are doing, but I think they are people like the rest of us, with all the same strengths and weaknesses.

I suspect that when the day finally comes that homosexuals enjoy all the rights and responsibilities of marriage they will take their vows as seriously as heterosexual couples do... that being, some seriously and others not so seriously.

[MaddogTerp]

75. dude, you are OUT THERE!

the problem is that it sounds like something a Bushie could say to gain support for his "defence of marriage" act, or whatever its' called. don't give them any ideas.

[AnnitaR]

6. I'm afraid we all will have to get used to it!

Kerry swings whichever way is the easiest. Typical politician who only looks out for his own interests!

It's incredibly sad if he's the best we can do.

[LosinIt]

20. Exactly, of all the Dems, he was only ahead of Joe

in my choices.

[benburch]

7. BUT, he is also not your enemy.

The difference between marriage called marriage and marriage called a civil union is really tiny.

Mind you, this is one of the MANY reasons I support Dennis Kucinich over Kerry, but it really is no reason to either hate or fear the man.

-Ben Burch
White Rose Society Webmaster
http://www.WhiteRoseSociety.org/

[roguevalley]

27. I disagree. Its huge if in nothing but symbolism. He agrees that there is

a right to discriminate if he believes this. No wonder
I have trouble with him. I am very sorry he feels this
way.

[dusty64]

53. If I'm correct

there is a LARGE difference between them. First, it creates a "separate but equal" scenario. Second, I believe it is only valid in the state in which its performed and gives the citizen NONE of the hundreds of Federal benefits that everyone else gets. This is typical Kerry, better get used to it.

[redqueen]

98. Sorry, but that's not true

The difference beteween civil unions and marriage is not really tiny.

It's huge.

For one thing, couples in civil unions receive a good amount of state rights, but none of the 1,049 Federal rights, (immigration, social security spousal benefits, etc.) Also, if a couple wishes to move to another state, they'd have to check first to see if their rights are recognized by that state.


DK on Gay Marriage:

"I support Federal legislation for Same-Sex Marriage. It is simple: every American citizen is entitled to the full rights, privileges and responsibilities under the US Constitution, including civil marriage. Civil unions do not afford some 1,049 rights, privileges and responsibilities that come with the designation of marriage. Our Constitution protects the rights of individuals in a free society--free even from religious discrimination. Our constitution proclaims ALL are equal, we can not exclude some citizens based on discrimination, fear, and hatred.

Further, I challenge my fellow democratic candidates to reject the position that THIS civil rights issue is somehow an issue best left for individual states to decide. To couch the argument as a state decision is unconstitutional, especially when 37 states have laws that discriminate against LGBT citizens. To pretend this issue is a state issue is the equivalent of saying "Women and African Americans are entitled to equal protection under the Constitution, but let's just leave that decision to the states to decide"!"

[revcarol]

127. Hmmmm.How about some of those so-called "leaders"

fund-raising for SOMEONE WHO REALLY SUPPORTS THEM, DENNIS KUCINICH.

That way they can put their money where their mouth ISN'T.

[redqueen]

136. It's all back scratching, it seems.

Do me a favor, and I'll do you one later.

Great. Super great.

[Bombtrack]

8. Isn't it hypocritical of you to bash him when you're a Dean-supporter?

Dean could have signed gay marriage into law in Vermont and he took the same option that Kerry favors.

I don't want Kerry to get the nomination either because I think Clark and to a lesser degree Edwards would be much more formidable opponents than Kerry would. But I don't take anything to bash him arbitrarily

[joshcryer]

19. Dean makes it clear that civil unions are synonymous with...

...marriage. I'm not sure what Kerry is saying here. I think in some states, civil unions are not synonymous with marriage, in that some laws cover marriage but do not cover civil unions.

Kerry needs to be clear that he agrees that gays should get the same protections as hetrosexuals. But the way he said that it's kind of hard to know his position.

[Bombtrack]

9. Isn't it hypocritical of you to bash him when you're a Dean-supporter?

Dean could have signed gay marriage into law in Vermont and he took the same option that Kerry favors.

I don't want Kerry to get the nomination either because I think Clark and to a lesser degree Edwards would be much more formidable opponents than Kerry would. But I don't take anything to bash him arbitrarily

[sandnsea]

10. civil unions can lose the election

But supporting civil unions isn't enough. Coming out in strong support of the original Mass decision isn't enough. Voting against DOMA isn't enough. No, you want him to support gay marriage 100% and toss a Democratic Presidency right out the window.

With friends like this, who needs enemies.

[corporatewhore]

12. would you say the same thing if the issue was marriage between a black and

a white? SAME FUCKING DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sandnsea]

14. No, it really isn't

Sorry, but it just isn't. Never will be. Doesn't matter to me who marries who, I think there's more important things to waste time arguing over. But most people don't see it that way and they never will.

[corporatewhore]

16. I beg to differ

how can you say its not back in the day it was not leagal for a black man to marry a white woman becuase they lived in an ignorant hatefilled society where they were a victim of peoples prejudices just as to day it is illeagal for a me to marry a woman if i so desire becuase I live in an ignorant hatefilled society where iam a victim of peoples prejudices as i said befor Kerry aint the real deal but the Raw Deal
Gay rights = Civil Rights Dont Let the Dream Die!!!!

[sandnsea]

21. It's not the same

Marriage has always been between men and women and has traditionally had a religious aspect to it. It isn't about living in any hate-filled society. It's about a society that is willing to provide equal protection under the law to gays, but that also wants to promote and protect its own cultural foundation.

[corporatewhore]

23. "its own cultural foundation" CAN KISS MY QUEER BROWN ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sandnsea]

71. Other people have rights too

Sorry you don't like to hear that, but that's the way it is. We can move forward with civil unions and more acceptance, or destroy any opportunity for change at all.

[OhioStateProgressive]

80. I'm not gay

but I am well aware that being against gay marriage is being for legalized bigotry... and other peoples rights do not include the right to legalized bigotry

[sandnsea]

82. Other people disagree

They have a right to have the most basic construct of society respected. And no, being against gay marriage is not bigotry. Denying equal rights under the law is bigotry and no Democrat is proposing that.

[OhioStateProgressive]

85. the court ruled civil unions are NOT equal

therefore they aren't

the point is deconstructing constructs, not reinforcing them

and other people's opinions rarely matter

[sandnsea]

89. Aaah,

Other people's opinions rarely matter. Interesting.

I know what the court ruled. So now we're going to have Constitutional Amendments and gays will never have anything resembling equal rights. Sounds like a great plan to me. :eyes:

[OhioStateProgressive]

97. other peoples opinions

do not matter as to another humans rights

many people think african americans are inferior, so therefore, the opinions of those people do not matter, and most certainly their opinions hold no bearing over the rights of african americans under the law

it is really quite simple, and I very much doubt a Constitutional Ammendment is likey to pass

[sandnsea]

133. 38 states

I think have passed laws against gay marriage. Massachusetts is meeting regarding a Constitutional Amendment. I'm glad other people are taking this so lightly, I think it's going to create the biggest fight this country has seen since Vietnam.

And other people's opinions regarding marriage most certainly do matter. Particularly when most of those people aren't trying to deny anybody the human right's of a legal union.

[redqueen]

99. Backing Civil Unions is bigotry

Being against gay marriage is bigotry.

Civil unions are the 'separate but equal' answer for gays.

[sandnsea]

101. Have nothing then

It doesn't affect my life one bit, gays are the ones who lose. Again, makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[OhioStateProgressive]

103. the same attitude is why it took america 100 years to end slavery

and never end racism

[roguevalley]

28. So what? So what if it is between men and women? Who cares? Its about

justice. Period. Bush says the same thing.

[corporatewhore]

30. Ditto

[sandnsea]

69. Civil Unions

That creates the justice. Marriage between a man and a woman is a basic cultural foundation and it isn't likely you're ever going to convince the majority of Americans to change that.

[dsc]

36. spoken as one who gets to marry who you want

I presume.

[IndianaGreen]

39. It sounds like the typical hetero condescension

for GLBTs that we have seen on this board since 2001.

[sandnsea]

70. Spoken as one

who prefers that gays have equal justice under the law which can be accomplished with civil unions. Spoken as one who lives in the reality that gay marriage is only going to create more animosity towards gays, more hatred and division in this country, a step backward for you. When we could be moving forward.

[redqueen]

104. You cannot have justice with civil unions

Sorry, but you cannot have justice with civil unions, any more than you can have justice with blacks and whites forced to ride in separate cable cars.

Do you think Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka caused animosity towards blacks?

If so, do you think that black people would give up those rights, so that they could endure less of said animosity?

[sandnsea]

134. It's not the same

Nobody is denying gays legal civil rights with civil unions. That's the difference.

[redqueen]

137. You must have missed this post.

The difference beteween civil unions and marriage is not really tiny.

It's huge.

For one thing, couples in civil unions receive a good amount of state rights, but none of the 1,049 Federal rights, (immigration, social security spousal benefits, etc.) Also, if a couple wishes to move to another state, they'd have to check first to see if their rights are recognized by that state.


DK on Gay Marriage:

"I support Federal legislation for Same-Sex Marriage. It is simple: every American citizen is entitled to the full rights, privileges and responsibilities under the US Constitution, including civil marriage. Civil unions do not afford some 1,049 rights, privileges and responsibilities that come with the designation of marriage. Our Constitution protects the rights of individuals in a free society--free even from religious discrimination. Our constitution proclaims ALL are equal, we can not exclude some citizens based on discrimination, fear, and hatred.

Further, I challenge my fellow democratic candidates to reject the position that THIS civil rights issue is somehow an issue best left for individual states to decide. To couch the argument as a state decision is unconstitutional, especially when 37 states have laws that discriminate against LGBT citizens. To pretend this issue is a state issue is the equivalent of saying "Women and African Americans are entitled to equal protection under the Constitution, but let's just leave that decision to the states to decide"!"

[IndianaGreen]

109. Why should Christians tell gay Jews that they cannot marry?

Here is the point of view about gay marriage from rabbis Dennis and Sandy Sasso of Indianapolis's Beth-El Zedeck Temple, the Conservative/Reconstructionist congregation of which I am a member:

Dennis & Sandy Sasso
A different view of Bible's message on homosexuality

January 20, 2004

When Britney Spears marries a young man in Las Vegas on a whim and then quickly files for an annulment, what does that tell us about the sanctity of marriage in our society? When men and women in marital relationships abuse one another, are disloyal and disrespectful, then the holiness of the marital covenant is debased. But when two people of the same or different gender commit to a loving partnership based on trust, caring and commitment then, most assuredly, God blesses that relationship, and society should do likewise.

• The Bible tells us that homosexual relations are prohibited.

Taking the Bible literally, out of its historical and social context, is dangerous. Strangely enough, many of those who claim to take the Bible at its word usually have selective hearing. The same people who listen to what Scripture says in regard to homosexual behavior turn a deaf ear to what it says, for example, regarding the violation of the Sabbath or the observance of dietary laws.

The Bible speaks of animal sacrifice, slavery and polygamy. However, a religious community in search of God begins to understand that these are not eternal divine mandates but historic human constructs. Animal sacrifice ceases; slavery and polygamy are outlawed with good "religious" reasons. The scriptural texts that speak of kindness to animals, of human freedom, of forgiveness and understanding testify against those texts that preach the opposite.

In other words, we must learn to look at the overarching divine principles of love and justice and learn to use sacred texts that teach the values of equality, human dignity and fairness to critique those texts that do not. We must understand the few negative biblical references to homosexuality in light of those verses that counter such statements by affirming that all people are created in the image of God and that celebrate human companionship.

http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/113054-6897-021.html

DU thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=113&topic_id=5555

[corporatewhore]

118. nice of you to tellus how we should be progressing

[sandnsea]

135. Reality is reality

That's how things happen. They progress. Civil unions today, marriage tomorrow. No civil unions today, no marriage tomorrow. That's the way the world has turned forever.

[quaker bill]

22. So could not voting for the war

Or the patriot act, NCLB, tax cuts, increases in defense spending, school vouchers, faith based initiatives.

To follow your logic (or lack thereof), if the only way democrats can win is to govern like republicans, why are we bothering to call them a seperate party?

[redqueen]

107. THANK YOU!!!!

Some see the obvious... others continue the march to the right.

:(

[Feanorcurufinwe]

11. Who is SJC and why did you put his words in Kerry's mouth?

Why don't you try criticizing Kerry for the things he's said and done instead of the things in your imagination.

[parasim]

15. Why don't you try reading the article?

The first sentence defines the SJC.

Also, since Kerry disagrees with the SJC's decision, it is fair to assume he disagrees with their opinion about the issue. If anything, he's putting the words in his own mouth.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. The link wouldn't work for me, it timed out. If you are done insulting me

Who is SJC?


And why did the poster blame John Kerry for things someone else said?

[maddezmom]

24. Supreme Judicial Court (of MA)

can't answer the other question.

[parasim]

113. I apologize for insulting you...

... I simply responded in the same tone that you did to the original poster, which, if my comment was insult to you, perhaps your comment was an insult to him. I didn't realize you were unable to read to the article.

SJC is the Supreme Judicial Court (of MA), as another poster stated.

As for the second question, the poster inferred that since Kerry disagreed with the decision of the SJC, then he perhaps disagreed with the advisory opinion of the SJC. Both statements were exerpted in the original post.

I believe that to be a fair assumption.

Again, sorry for the insult.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. You are wasting your time.

You won't get a reasonable response to your thoughtful comment.

[emanymton]

25. Thank You

but it needs to be said.

Equal rights for all is what it is all about!

[redqueen]

108. That thoughtful comment got deleted for some odd reason

:shrug:

Care to let us know what merited comment in it?

[Chicago Democrat]

26. Gay marriage is a good future goal, Gays should support Kerry

Blessings to all gay people! I am gay and wish that marriage could be afforded to us, but brothers and sisters I tell you that now is not the time! Some ideas and concepts are ahead of their time, like medical marijuana or gay marriage. Slowly, slowly the power of veracity wins over bigotry and exclusion. Slow. Imperceptible.

Please be patient. We may not live to see nationwide accepted gay marriage for 40 years, or even 100 years, but remember that -we- who advocate it will be remembered. John Kerry represents an average American opinion, and his record on civil rights is on par to none, so please excuse his political savvy by skirting a no-win issue for him.

Even if he wanted gay marriage, advocating it right now would be political suicide. So he must be slightly dishonest and appear more anti-gay than he actually is.

Darling, It's so so so so much better than Clinton! Who pandered to us gay voters, only to totally abandon us on every single significant issue!

The Massachusetts Supreme Court has put all Democratic candidates in an awkward position. We should all applaud the wisdom of the court and sadly suffer the will of the tyranny of the majority. At least for another generation, its sad isn't it? But thats just where America is on the evolutionary scale of wisdom. Stupid us.

[IndianaGreen]

31. Gays should boycott the election if Kerry is the nominee!

This is the 21st century, and telling people to wait until tomorrow for their full civil rights won't work!

[aldian159]

32. Welcome to DU!

Great post fellow Chicago Dem.

As sad as it is, gay marriage = four more years of Bush.

[IndianaGreen]

33. Why don't we call for a total ban on abortions?

That will get Kerry the anti-choice vote.

How about doing away with women's right to vote?

That will get Kerry the angry white male vote.

Or calling for bringing back slavery?

Kerry will be endorsed by Strom Thurmond.

As sad as it is, gay marriage = four more years of Bush.

That's the DLC homophobic mantra! Screw the DLC!

[corporatewhore]

35. oh totally if i dont need my civil rights because i am queer i certainly

dont need my civil rights cause i aint white

[HFishbine]

44. "We should all applaud the wisdom of the court..."

All of us except, bigots, republicans, and certain democratic presidential candidates. (They have there reasons, you know?)

[IndianaGreen]

29. Kerry doesn't believe in equality before the law

In Kerry's world, gays are to remain in the back of the bus.

I don't even expect Kerry to oppose Bush's Constitutional Amendment to relegate gays to the same status that slaves had. When it comes to political courage, Kerry is severely lacking.

[dsc]

34. This is part of my problem with Kerry

While I admit that Dean also is for civil unions instead of marriage, the difference of tone matters. Dean is upfront about his gay support, Kerry often isn't. A look at literature is illustrative. I have been handing out Dean literature in some, at best, gay neutral counties. Yet on all that literature Dean makes clear that he supports gay rights. Kerry's only literature in my area says he supports civil rights for all with no mention of gays. If he is doing that now, then what will he do when he is in power?

[joshcryer]

40. Dean has also explicitly said that civil unions afford all the same...

...rights as marriage.

[HFishbine]

47. The Dean distinction

Dean is not out there saying "Gay people should be allowed to get married." But he distinguishes himself from other candidates in a very significant way on this issue. He basically says that it doesn't matter what states call it, but that they must provide EQUAL protection under the law for all people. If a state were to pass a law that failed to give gays and lesbians equality on the issue of unions (no matter what they may call it), that would be unacceptable.

[dogman]

37. He honors marriage

so much, just like most of the hypocrites, he's done it multiple times himself. A man is as good as his word, so he is just good more often.

[corporatewhore]

38. I cant believe people are defending Kerry on this

that would be like asking me to overlook my civil rights because i am a latina and it could cost him votes!
Gay Rights = Civil Rights DONT LET THE DREAM DIE !!!!

[HFishbine]

48. You'll notice

That there are actually a very few Kerry defenders in this thread.

[CWebster]

41. Typical middle road politician

Talking out of both sides of his mouth, trying to pander to every side, trying to get away with saying nothing and never taking a firm position.

The greatest tragedy of a Kerry candidacy is that we will all lose interest, lose enthusiasm and again feel disconnected and disenfranchised and removed from the process - and above and beyond all things, lose hope.

[RichM]

66. This siphoning off of energy is the precise function of the Dem Party...

It's a ruling class instrument. It's not meant to produce enlightened change. It's meant to siphon off the energy & enthusiasm of those who desire enlightened change -- guiding it "safely" into channels which won't disturb the basic workings of the system.

Kerry is the quinessential Dem Party candidate: the guy who can win because looks the part, doesn't threaten anyone important, & aims at cosmetic improvements only.

[RetroLounge]

42. Typical Kerry Pandering

eom

[IndianaGreen]

43. Compare Kerry to the Socialist position on GLBT rights

I don't expect a Kerry-controlled Democratic Convention to have this sort of plank about gay rights:

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender

The Socialist Party recognizes the human and civil rights of all, without regard to sexual orientation or gender identity.

1. We call for the repeal of all sodomy laws and anti-lesbian and gay restrictions, and the legalization of same-sex unions or marriages.

2. We are committed to confronting the heterosexism that provides the fertile ground for homophobic violence, and support all efforts toward fostering understanding and cooperation among persons and groups of differing sexual orientations and identities.

http://sp-usa.org/about/platform/human-rights.html#Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender

[Chicago Democrat]

124. If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao...

...you aint gonna make it with anyone anyhow!

I have a better idea; lets compare the elect-ability of Kerry versus anyone who associates himself with the Socialist Workers Party.

I would rather have a slight compromise with the vast majority of our party (Democratic), than 4 more Neo Con years. I'm a pragmatist. I do not want to live in an America with Bush running things until 2009!!

So hear me now and listen to me later:

George Bush starts wars and builds concentration camps. I don't want to wear a Pink Triangle in some concentration camp! If the left sabotages the Democratic nominee like the Greens did in 2000, I'm seriously considering moving to Canada, where the left has its act together. This is why I am willing to forgoe this issue for now.

Let Kerry get in office first; then we can lobby a Democratic majority. That is so much more important for the good of the nation!

Politics is about compromise. Wisdom often involves sacrifice of personal desires to the greater public good. If you don't realize the power of homophobia in the USA. I tell you that if the Democrats are forced to publically advocate gay marriage they will loose in November. That's a sad fact, and it why I say that -America- is not ready for this. I am. My friends are. They get married, and its as real as anything hetero marriage.

They also cheat, break up, argue about money and sometimes even kill each other. Lets not kid ourselves; it would be a supremely selfish act if gays boycotted Kerry and then Bush got elected because of it! Talk about bad karma.

[IndianaGreen]

128. "Politics is about compromise"

That was the Democratic mantra to justify the party's historical silence on segregation in order to keep the Southern Democrats safe with their racist traditions.

[Chicago Democrat]

130. Dems Lost the South since 1964, Wanna loose the whole nation?

Only maybe this year, after the ravages of NAFTA, trickle down, Neo-Con economy do Democrats even have a chance of winning in anywhere in the South. Thats the price of taking tough stances with the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Finally poor Southern whites may have evolved enough on the evolutionary scale of Civilized society by re-embracing the Democratic party, esp with someone like Edwards on the ticket. They finally have realized that racist attitudes are just wrong. But it took 40 years.

40 years ago it was illegal to be gay. I think we know which party is responsible for the HUGE strides we have made. Its certainly NOT the socialists. The Democratic Party has been on the side of gays and the Republican Party is against us.

The question is who are you going to help get into office.

1) A good Democrat - like Kerry or whoever. Then vote for them.
2) A bad Neo CON - Like Bush - Then support the Socialist Workers Party or the greens.

Sadly thats your choice. I admire your principles and your passion. Indiana Green. I actually agree with you on substantive issues. I'm just desperate for change. Completely terrified of where Bush is leading us.

The Apocalypse is not where I want to go. Please support Democrats.

Thanks

[robbedvoter]

46. Clark agrees with the Mass court decision - consistent position:

up to the states to decide. If Mass wants it - fine by him.

MR. RUSSERT:  You told The Advocate that in Massachusetts, if you say you're going to form a civil union, but we're going to call it a marriage, that as far as you're concerned, it's a marriage.

GEN. CLARK:  That's up to the states.
http://msnbc.msn.com/ID/4028066/

[IndianaGreen]

49. Wes Clark is a true liberal unlike that Kerry "Phoney Deal"

Clark has surprised me the most of all candidates. I will enthusiastically support Clark if he were the nominee. I won't do the same for Kerry. I just might have a headache on Election Day.

[LuminousX]

61. Oh for crying out loud, Kerry has a lengthy history of liberal votes

what is Clark's history?

Understand, I think both suck, but I don't think it is fair deny Kerry's long lived positions and claim a short timer is more a proponent of liberal causes.

[David Zephyr]

79. Wes Clark Has Consistently Surprised Me, Too.

Supporting Dean, but like you, should Clark be the nominee, I will be on board "enthusiastically" supporting him.

[HFishbine]

50. You quoted Clark's weaker answer

The previous question and answer from the same interview provides a clearer distinction between Clark and Kerry:

MR. RUSSERT: Would you support gay marriages?

GEN. CLARK: I support equal rights, and what that means is if people want to enter into a contract where they have the right to visitation in a hospital, just as though they were family, they should have that right. If they want the rights of survivorship, they should have that right. If they want the right to put their partner on an insurance policy, they should have that right. And whether that's called marriage or not is really--that's up to the church or synagogue or mosque and the states. But equal rights in America is a requirement; that's what we stand for as a nation, and that's what I support.
----------

If I'm interpreting this right, I find it very much in line with my views: marriage is a religious matter. Providing equal protection under the law is a fundemental obligation of those sworn to uphold the Constitution.

[redqueen]

111. But it's not a religious matter. Federal benefits from marriage

will not be afforded to those who awarded the separate but equal 'civil unions' that is being offered.

Even if some states decided to award those benefits, this would mean gay couples could only avail themselves of those benefits in certain states.

Providing equal protection means gay couples should have the same benefits granted to hetero couples. With civil unions, this does not happen.

[HFishbine]

126. That's where the federal government comes in

“As president of the United States, I will recognize civil unions, which will then allow full equality under the law as far as the federal government is concerned,” Dean said in a speech to the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association convention in Philadelphia.

Vermont is the only state in the country that formally recognizes relationships of gay and lesbian couples. Through a pact known as civil unions, passed by the Legislature in 2000, the state grants same-sex couples all of the rights and benefits of marriage that are conferred by the state government.

Dean made a point of saying that Vermont has not passed a law for what is commonly referred to as gay marriage, emphasizing that civil unions are a parallel, but separate, institution. Nonetheless, the law does confer state benefits to same-sex couples, such as state tax advantages and health care and inheritance rights.

“We have full civil marriage rights (for gays and lesbians), we just don’t call it marriage,” Dean said.


http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/53124

[redqueen]

140. Edited

Nevermind... Dean's made his plan clear and that sounds fine, seeing as he seems to have been able to do as much for civil unions in VT.

Thanks!

[David Zephyr]

78. Thanks, Robbedvoter For Posting This.

Heroic answer, rather than a poltical dodge.

[redqueen]

110. This is an easy out

If you leave it up to the states, you're basically saying that if married gays what to enjoy the same benefits as married heteros, that they must live in these states only. Some states won't recognize it, and leaving it up to them IMO is a cop-out.

[Killarney]

51. Kerry has the same stance as Dean & Edwards

For civil unions.
Against marriage.

I'm personally for gay marriage, but I can't understand why someone would say Dean is better than Kerry on this issue since they hold the same opinion on the matter. Unless the point wasn't to discuss the issue and just try to insult Kerry in any way possible.

[HFishbine]

52. Maybe we're just dumb.

Perhaps you can enlighten us and show us where Kerry has said that there must be no distinction among the rights afforded heterosexual and homosexual couples.

[corporatewhore]

54. I am saying Kucinich is better

[dansolo]

55. Dean was in front on this issue

Is this the first time we even heard the words "civil unions" out of John Kerry's mouth? Howard Dean was out in front on this issue, and Kerry is once again trying to sound like Dean, without the sincerity.

[blm]

59. Wrong. Noone has stepped forward more on gay issues than Kerry.

He has been pushing progay legislation in the Senate since he got there in 1985.

[soleft]

63. Dean has never said he's AGAINST gay marriage

He said it's up for the church's to decide who gets married. Kerry has said he's AGAINST IT.

[progressivebydesign]

81. Dean's position is not "against" gay marriage...

His position is that he favors Civil Unions. He has said several times, that gay "marriage" is a matter for churches, and should be decided by them. He is not in the business of telling churches what to do. He believes that civil unions adequately cover the rights of gay couples. This new ruling is just a way to muddle the Vermont law...

[bitchkitty]

57. It figures.

[blm]

58. Kerry has never been for gay marriage mainly because of the religio/civil

complications. He has always been FOR civil unions.

Why are you bitter against Kerry for his position, yet you exalted Dean for his which is no different?

[Snivi Yllom]

60. he might be your friend if you belonged to AIG

See this thread too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=273380

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=703&e=3&u=/ap/20040205/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_big_dig

AP Exclusive: Kerry Blocked Law, Drew Cash
Thu Feb 5, 2:45 AM ET

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - John Kerry (news - web sites) intervened in the Senate to keep open a loophole that had allowed a major insurer to divert millions of federal dollars from the nation's most expensive construction project, then received tens of thousand of dollars in donations from the company during the next two years, documents show.

American International Group paid Kerry's way on a trip to Vermont and donated at least $30,000 to a tax-exempt group Kerry used to set up his presidential campaign. Company executives also donated $18,000 to his Senate and presidential campaigns, according to records obtained by The Associated Press.

[bicentennial_baby]

62. Grrrrrr

As someone who has suffered from the fallout of the Big Dig (W. MA resident), that makes me sick! :puke:

[soleft]

67. I belong to AIG and he's not my friend

but if he's the nominee I will support him over Bush.

[Fleshdancer]

64. All he had to say was....

"While I prefer the concept of civil unions, I respect the court's decision that the current laws discriminate against a defined class".

This would have been the best answer in my opinion. He shouldn't have said he disagreed with the court's decision because the Democrats NEED to frame this as an equal rights issue, not as a stupid argument over whether we call this form of equality "marriage" or "civil unions".

[Merlin]

65. This is the first GOOD thing I've heard about Kerry in a while.

I have had my doubts about him. But having the guts and clarity to take this astute position on a political trap set for him by the Republicans in his home state is admirable.

[Brian_Expat]

87. A "trap?!?"

Why can't John Kerry say "I agree people should be equal"?

What's so hard about that?

[Ficus]

68. lots of people throwing stones in glass houses here

As far as I know, the only candidate left that if for Gay Marrige and not civil unions, is Dennis Kucinich. Dk all the way - the only one with enough guts to take that position.

Quit Kerry bashing for any and all reasons you can think of (skull & bones)- you all just make yourselves look like sore losers.

God, why would anyone on DU change their vote because of the hypocritical garbage that is put out here? Are you all still trying to persuade voters to your candidates anymore, or are you all just bitching to hear yourselves bitch?

[Uzybone]

120. Well said

the hypocrisy on DU is getting more and more ridiculous by the day. Kerry, Clark, Dean, Edwards all have the same fucking positions on gay marriage yet the CLark and Dean supporters only slime Kerry. It is sad to see.

[dsc]

125. No they do not

Edwards has said on more than one occasion that he would review rights of marriage on the federal level on a right by right basis. He did say, in one interview, that he would extend them all. But unless that last position now is operative, then Dean, Kerry, and Clark all have a substantive difference with Kerry on this issue. Also I have never heard Kerry state, anywhere, that he would have a federal law requiring states to recognize gay couples which both Clark and Dean have favored.

[DemLikr]

72. One step at a time, my friend. First step: Get rid of Bush*

Regardless of which Dem candidate is elected, ANY ONE of them will be light years closer to decency and fairness for gay folks than is the moron/bigot in the Oval Office.

[Paulie]

73. That's how we got into this mess in the first place!!!

No more wishy washy Dem's, no more pink tutu's, no more appeasement, no more running to the right (aka center).

I want my party back by god!!!!

[Brian_Expat]

105. Amen! n/t

[DemLikr]

119. your all or nothing attitude will work well as part of Rove's re-select

strategy.

Guess you're looking forward to four more years of bush*.

:eyes:

[flpoljunkie]

74. Brian, recommend that you read this from clear-eyed gay, lesbian leaders

in an article in today's Washington Post regarding the Massachusetts Supreme Court Ruling and 2004 electoral politics.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14078-2004Feb4.html

"I think it's a very thin line," said Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. "They pushed the anti-gay agenda hard in '92 and it blew up in the first President Bush's face." Foreman and other supporters of same-sex marriage contend that there is now the same chance of backlash.

Gay and lesbian leaders are backing up that hope with some clear-eyed politics: They have not called on Kerry or the other Democrats to embrace the Massachusetts court's decision. Kerry's attempted straddle of the issue -- for civil unions, against court-ordered marriage rights -- will continue to pass muster with his base, several gay rights activists said.

Realizing that Bush is hearing fresh demands from social conservatives that he push a constitutional amendment, the groups did not fault Democratic candidates for trying to shade toward the middle.

"With terrorism, the economy and health care on the agenda, gay marriage is not the most important issue on any public opinion survey," Foreman said. "What we will expect the Democratic nominee to do is to come out strongly against scapegoating gay people and against amending our constitutions -- federal or state -- to enshrine our second-class citizenship."

[Brian_Expat]

88. I don't agree with their premise

It's capable for Kerry to dodge the Republicans' tactics without stating that he thinks GLBT people should be second-class citizens (which is what "opposing this ruling" means). Democrats including Clark, Dean, and others have managed too.

Kerry is not going to help differentiate the Democrats in our community or create a clear alternative to Bush with rhetoric like this. LCRs will spin it as "Bush and Kerry are both opposed to marriage, so vote for Bush."

[MaddogTerp]

77. Kerry and Clarky are both problematic in this

neither one of them really wants to stand up for gay rights, they just want to talk out of both sides of their mouths to please everybody. they don't actually believe what they say or care about it. damn sellouts!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

83. His record would contradict you but that's OK, believe what you want

“To all Americans, I encourage you tonight to stare down those who want you to live in fear and declare boldly that you will not live in a country where private prejudice undermines public law. Each of us has the power to make this happen, and in a small way change misperception and reverse prejudice. Our belief in the strength of human justice can overcome the hatred in our society -- by confronting it. … Hate is the real enemy of our civilization -- and we come here to call on all people of good conscience to pass the laws that help us protect every citizen and we ask every American to make the personal commitment to live our lives each day in a way that brings us together.”
Read the whole speech here

John Kerry
Candlelight Vigil for Matthew Shepard
October 14, 1998

Preventing Hate Crimes: John Kerry is an original cosponsor of the Hate Crimes Prevention bill, which would extend federal jurisdiction over serious, violent hate crimes. These would include crimes motivated by sexual orientation. Hate crimes rose a disturbing 3.5% from 1999 to 2000.

Ending Discrimination: One of John Kerry’s first acts as a U.S. Senator was to introduce a bill prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He supports passage of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and has adopted a nondiscrimination policy for his Congressional offices based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

HIV/AIDS Funding: John Kerry cosponsored the first Ryan White Comprehensive AIDS Resources Emergency Act (CARE)—which represents the largest discretionary federal investment in treating individuals with HIV and AIDS. Kerry also sponsored the Vaccines for the New Millennium Act, aimed at boosting contributions to the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative, a non-profit group working to promote development of an HIV vaccine in 2000. Kerry introduced the U.S. Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, TB, and Malaria Act, which would increase the U.S. government’s funding of international HIV/AIDS efforts from approximately $1.7 billion in 2003 to $1.9 billion in 2004. This effort led to the unanimous passage in May 2003 the United States Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, TB, and Malaria Act of 2003. AIDS activists characterized Kerry as one of Congress’s top leaders on HIV/AIDS policy.

Protecting Gay and Lesbian Families: John Kerry believes that same-sex couples should be granted rights, including access to pensions, health insurance, family medical leave, bereavement leave, hospital visitation, survivor benefits, and other basic legal protections that all families and children need. He has supported legislation to provide domestic partners of federal employees the benefits available to spouses of federal employees. He was one of 14 Senators -- and the only one up for reelection in 1996 -- to oppose the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).

Lifting the Ban on Gays in the Military: John Kerry opposed the Clinton Administration’s “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell Policy” He was one of a few senators to testify before the Senate Armed Services Committee and call on the President to rescind the ban on gay and lesbian service members.

"Violence against gays and lesbians has now reached epidemic proportions in America."

--Senator John Kerry (D-MA) to the house Subcommittee on the Constitution, June 21, 1988.

snip
Likewise, Massachusetts Senators Ted Kennedy and John Kerry are firm in their belief that while they respect their church, they're not about to allow their religious beliefs to dictate their public policy-making decisions. "I believe in the church and I care about it enormously," Kerry commented after the Vatican decree was released. "But I think that it's important to not have the church instructing politicians. That is an inappropriate crossing of the line in America."
http://www.baywindows.com/news/2003/09/18/LocalNews/Between.Church.And.State.shtml

[Brian_Expat]

91. That's all well and good BUT

Kerry stated he disagrees with the court's statement that people should be equal. I have a real problem with that and it won't go away. No matter what his motivation is, it's troubling and is not going to help him with the mainstream GLBT community.

[nolabels]

86. This is another fine mess you have got us in

Just like some other "don't ask, don't tell" works of art, the people who think that it their moral duty to tell others how to use language in the process of describing something they have lost their way, again. The other white meat fits aptly in describing politicians and swine interchangeably. It is no surprise to me of being a debate about semantics, beings that people with a homophobe bent are also afraid of words.

A fearful lot is those who would want to use any means possible against people that seem different from them or against something they don't understand. It's seems to me that people that have such views are not much of an example of being a leader to me. Playing on others fears in order to gain approval others is a recipe for disaster. Being a cynical person, my guess somebody decided they would need the buba vote, and are positioning themselves as such

[TexasSissy]

90. Do you want to win the GE or not? Kerry's position is the one of most

Americans. Thank goodness that's his position. Otherwise, the Repubs would be able to make a much bigger "liberal" story of this than they would have. They're going to make this a big issue, anyway, as it is, without Kerry giving them flamebait.

If you want to win, just vote for the person most likely to beat Bush, whoever you think that might be. Otherwise, you might be looking at a federal Constitutional amendment banning any type of gay partnerships, if Bush gets re-elected.

One small step at a time is sometimes best.

[Brian_Expat]

93. I don't "win" if I'm not equal

I don't subscribe to the "politics as team sports" viewpoint.

[IndianaGreen]

112. ABB is a false choice

when people are demanding that we cast our vote for a man that supports Bush's war, supports Bush's assaults on our civil liberties, who refuses to repeal "don't ask, don't tell" and parrots the homophobic "small steps" when it comes to full rights for GLBTs.

[DemLikr]

121. your political "purity" is lovely and admirable and all that...

...and fairly useless in the actual world.

I'm gay and I want bush out. I believe with even Kerry, my human rights will be much safer than they are currently.

I'm a Dean guy, but will vote for Kerry, Edwards, Clark as well.

I guess you'll be voting for...Boy George?

[TexasSissy]

92. Edwards and Dean also agree w/Kerry's position. Clark is the most

liberal on this subject, but even he thinks it's an individual state's decision.

[Brian_Expat]

94. I have a problem with how it was expressed

Kerry's first point was that the court "was wrong" in ruling that people should be equal, NOT that the Republicans are being hateful. That really bothers me and it will bother a lot of the rest of us who don't live in Texas.

[redqueen]

116. No, Kucinich is the most liberal on this subject,

and the only one who's right. :)

[redqueen]

95. Why isn't he fighting back like a leader should, you ask?

Because that's what we've been trained to accept as 'safe'. And he's being rewarded for it by voters.

Sickening, isn't it?

[Brian_Expat]

96. My ancient rule is simple

I support another with as much fervour as he supports me. I think I shall apply that adage to JK.

[redqueen]

117. I humbly ask

that you consider applying that to DK, as well. :)

[DemLikr]

122. So it has to be MARRIAGE RIGHT NOW, or nothing else will do?

Black or white? All or nothing?

Civil unions won't suffice even as a temporary stepping stone?

Politics: the art of the possible.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

132. Kerry's a lawyer. He knows exactly what's possible

This is no big deal. Also has Catholic issues to deal with here.

[dsc]

139. Glad to know from an expert on gay life

what is and isn't a big deal. I mean, I am utterly sure that you know a heck of a lot more than I what is and isn't a big deal in regards to my rights.

[Forkboy]

100. My guess

He's probably actually for it,but as always with Kerry political expediancy comes first.

[IndianaGreen]

115. Another example of Kerry's political cowardliness!

This is why they love to put Kerry on TV with Vietnam veterans as a backdrop, to remind the voters of the last time Kerry had any courage.

[rucky]

114. It worked for him with the war.

Thank goodness the main differences between civil unions & gay marriage are mostly rhetorical. That way Kerry can be for it & against it at the same time. Kerry's really good at that, while appearing to be consistent - as with the war. I don't know how he pulls it off, but it can't last long. Watch out, Kerry.

[mitchum]

129. So, I guess the 35% of gays who vote republican...

consider him even less of a friend?

[dsc]

131. It was 25%

and only in the case of Bush v Gore. We voted 90% for Clinton and got not much for it.

[Hippo_Tron]

138. Kerry is a politician...

He most likely has no problem with gay marriage but for purposes of getting elected he won't say it.