Barack Obama, "like a drill sergeant," disrespects a Christian pastor!

[pnwmom]

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/29414509.html

Says Dr. Johnny Hunter, the insulted minister:

"Of course, there is always the possibility that when Senator Obama votes in favor of abortion and the right of two men to have anal sex, he is voting his core value belief. For many pastors and congregations who follow scriptural teaching, that is cause for alarm. That would explain why he and his staff refused to meet his own constituents from Chicago, an African American pastor and his wife, the day before he voted against the marriage amendment. Plus, it would also explain why, like a drill sergeant, he pressed into my face, showing no respect for me as an ordained minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, to make a point that he would not support a marriage amendment with the definition of one man and one woman only."

Dr. Hunter wrote this letter in response to Obama's essay in the U.S. News and World Report, where Obama discussed his religious values and the separation of Church and State. Here's just a few snips, but the whole thing's worth reading.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-07-09-forum-religion-obama_x.htm

On faith in the public square:

". . . it's wrong to ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering the public square. Abraham Lincoln, William Jennings Bryan, Martin Luther King Jr. — indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history — were not only motivated by faith, they also used religious language to argue for their cause. To say men and women should not inject their "personal morality" into policy debates is a practical absurdity; our law is by definition a codification of morality.

"If progressives shed some of these biases, we might recognize the overlapping values that both religious and secular people share when it comes to the direction of our country. We might recognize that the call to sacrifice, the need to think in terms of "thou" and not just "I," resonates with all Americans. And we might realize that we have the ability to reach out to the evangelical community and engage millions of religious Americans in the larger project of America's renewal."

On the importance of separation of Church and State:

"This separation is critical to our form of government because in the end, democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. If I am opposed to abortion for religious reasons but seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

"This might be difficult for those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice. Politics involves compromise, the art of the possible. But religion does not allow for compromise. To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime; to base our policymaking on them would be dangerous."

[WyLoochka]

1. Obama's the only one with any

eloquence on these matters. He is not going to betray democracy, imo.

[peacebird]

2. Kudos to Obama for refusing to kiss up to the Christian-taliban!

So Obama refused to DENY Americans EQUAL RIGHTS under the law? EXCELLENT!

[Xipe Totec]

3. ". . . wrong to ask believers to leave their religion at the door?

Bullshit!

We left the American flag at the door of the church during my brother's funeral; a 20 year veteran of the Marines. The flag is not allowed inside the house of God. That is proper.

But separation of church and state works in both directions.

That is proper too.

[pnwmom]

4. Did you read the whole thing or just the first sentence?

[Xipe Totec]

5. I'm quoting the third paragraph

so yes.

[pnwmom]

7. No, he writes about the separation of Church and State

in the final two paragraphs. If you're interested, that's where to look.

But there's a lot more in the actual USAToday article at the link.

[Xipe Totec]

9. I've read it again. My position stands

separation of church and state works both ways.

It is improper to wave the flag in church.

It is improper to impose one church's parochial morality in the public square.

[pnwmom]

10. But you take your personal sense of morality with you, wherever you go,

and for a religious person, that sense of morality is deeply connected with their religious beliefs.

[Xipe Totec]

12. True enough

I am a deeply religious person. Mystical even.

To me, seeing the flag removed from my brother's coffin as it entered the church, and lovingly set aside by one of his fellow Marines was a deeply felt and symbolic experience. It was as if the flag no longer draped my brother's coffin, but the entire church instead. To me it symbolized the covenant of the constitution to respect freedom of worship.

However, I respect the public square as a place where I can find common ground with all my brethren. Not on religious principles, but on human principles. Once somebody starts arguing a point in the public square on religious grounds, they have crossed the line.

Render onto Caesar, that which is Caesar's...

[pnwmom]

15. I think you're making too much of that one sentence.

Does any of this bother you:

"This separation is critical to our form of government because in the end, democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. If I am opposed to abortion for religious reasons but seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

"This might be difficult for those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice. Politics involves compromise, the art of the possible. But religion does not allow for compromise. To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime; to base our policymaking on them would be dangerous."

[Xipe Totec]

16. No, I have no quarrel with those statements

But we cannot pick an choose which statements to to read and which to ignore.

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, and that is especially true for chains of argument.

As much as I like Barack Obama, and I admire him, I do not agree with him on this point. I believe it to be pandering to the religious right. He has to calibrate his message; I understand that. I just hope he remembers there is also a religious left.

[pnwmom]

17. Actually, I may have distorted his message by my selection

of contrasting paragraphs. I agree with you that it's important to consider the totality of an argument, but of course I couldn't post the whole thing.

[Xipe Totec]

19. I think we're in violent agreement here

:thumbsup:

If the message is "separation of church and state protects religious freedom" I'm behind that 100%

:dem:

[pnwmom]

27. I think it is the ONLY way to protect religious freedom.

And always has been.

[TankLV]

25. And he's opposed to abortion and would outlaw it - from his own lips

- but it's apparently OK because he'd "allow" public debate on it before banning it.

How very gracious of him.

Fuck him, misogynic bastard.

Another reason to dismiss him in my book.

Fuck him and his self-righteous "beliefs".

[Lindacooks]

22. I've seen American flags in churches; in fact, it was up front

at my sister's wedding, which took place on Flag Day, June 14. And I've seen it at funerals of vets as well. What denomination refuses to let the flag into the church?

[Xipe Totec]

32. Roman Catholic

A Pall, a large cloth, white or gold, completely covers the casket during the Mass of Christian Burial. It represents the baptismal robe that is placed on a person during the ceremony of Baptism. It reminds us that all are equal in the eyes of God, so the focus is not on the type of casket. An American Flag can drape a casket before or after the Mass of Christian Burial, but it cannot do so during the Mass.

Likewise, it is disrespectful to the flag to cover it with the pall, so the flag must be removed before the pall covers the casket.

In south Texas tradition the priest receives the body at the door of the church and waits for the pall to be placed on the coffin. Therefore, that is where the flag is removed on entering, and restored upon leaving.

What other churches may or may not do is entirely up to them. That's why it's called freedom of religion.

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. People should listen to Obama's speech or read the text of the speech

he gave to the conference sponsored by the Sojourners movement.

“They gave Obama thunderous applause when he proclaimed his support for separation of church and state and giving teenagers access to contraception." link:
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/nation/14923089.htm

link for online streaming of Sen. Obama's speech:

http://www.calltorenewal.com/events/pentecost06/index.html

link for text of Sen. Obama's speech:

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=news.display_article&mode=C&NewsID=5454

The conference that Sen. Obama, Sen. Clinton and Gov. Dean were speaking at was sponsored by the Sojourners movement.

“They gave Obama thunderous applause when he proclaimed his support for separation of church and state and giving teenagers access to contraception." link:
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/nation/14923089.htm

Sojourners are actually fairly left-wing on foreign policy and economic issues; and moderate on social issues.

Sojourners are the Evangelicals they were speaking to:

link for Sojourners:


http://www.sojo.net /

link for Sojourners Magazine:


http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.home

Interview on Democracy Now with Rev. Jim Wallis (founder and leader of Sojourners) - link:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/26/1355204

____________

[Synnical]

8. No, the Christian Pastor is disrespecting Separation of Church and State

The Constitutionally Mandated Separation . . . must I add?

[pnwmom]

11. I don't think anyone here needs to be reminded

about the Constitutionally protected separation of church and state.

And Obama seems to have a very good handle on that, too.

[Synnical]

13. Your first paragraph was obviously intended to provoke a reaction

Don't bitch at me for stating the obvious, when you included no reference to sarcasm.

And why are you re-posting this nonsense if not to get a reaction?

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[pnwmom]

14. I'm not sure what you mean by my "first paragraph."

But I wasn't being sarcastic. I was being enthusiastic. I'm glad he stood up to the pastor.

I posted this "nonsense" because a number of DU'ers are afraid that Obama is too religious. I was pointing out that he has taken a strong stand for gay rights and AGAINST people, like this pastor, who want to impose their religious beliefs on others.

And what did I say that made you react by saying "don't bitch at me"? I wasn't attacking you or anybody else.

[Synnical]

18. You're not sure what I mean?

More nonsense. No more comments from me.

[LittleClarkie]

28. Well, perhaps, if you'd referred to her headline

Instead of her first paragraph, which was merely a quote from the pastor, she would have understood what you meant.

Was it her headline in the first post that you thought was a provocation?

You might have wanted to make yourself clear before pronouncing her comment "nonsense" lest you look like a shmuck.

[Doctor_J]

20. "votes for abortion"

umm...yeah. This freak must be the recipient of mega-faith-based-bucks.

[Lindacooks]

21. You know, when I think about gays and their right to marry,

I don't think about:

"the right of two men to have anal sex"

Doesn't that say something about this pastor that THAT is what he thinks about? Not the companionship, the love, the legal rights obtained by married people. Not the right to make medical decisions for each other in times of critical illness, to receive medical benefits. Anal sex. That's what this pastor thinks about. That's pretty telling, to me.

The pastor is obviously obsessed with gay sex and trying his damndest to stop it.

[pnwmom]

29. There are lots of people like that, unfortunately.

But good for Obama for standing up to them.

[RangerSmith]

33. It says enough about

that pastor that I now respect Obama even more for getting in the guys face.

Especially after his speech to evangelicals a little while back. It seems to me that Obama has a good handle on where the line needs to be drawn.

[ComerPerro]

23. I stopped reading his thoughts at the "anal sex" part, because,

apparently, Obama is bad because he wants to make it ok for two men to have anal sex.

He is obviously talking about gay marriage.

So, does "doctor" Johnny mean to imply that he not only supports, but endorses, anal sex between married heterosexual couples?

[pnwmom]

30. But if you stopped reading there, you missed the best part!

Complaining about Obama's moral values, he says:

"Plus, it would also explain why, like a drill sergeant, he (Obama) pressed into my face, showing no respect for me as an ordained minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, to make a point that he would not support a marriage amendment with the definition of one man and one woman only."

[Vickers]

24. Is his doctorate in anal sex?

All of these Jesus Doctors :eyes: are always so fixated on anal sex.

[sampsonblk]

26. It IS a problem

Embracing religion is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it can get us a lot of votes. And many religious types would be solid Dems if not for some sticky issues like abortion and gay rights. However, the downsides are huge. There are so many isues with Christianity that really need to be resolved. The bible is great reading, but how much of that stuff is true? How much was put in by politicians of yesteryear? How can one swear allegiance to this Christian God and also support the invasion of Iraq and other Bush disasters?

Before we begin a new focus on faith, we should make sure we don't lose sight of what's important: no, not the next election, the truth.

[pnwmom]

31. I think that Obama gets it that it's a double-edged sword.

In the USA today piece (in the OP) he says that it is DANGEROUS for the state to make decisions for religious reasons.