Will the Massachusetts Gay Marriage Issue Hurt Kerry?

[anti-NAFTA]

www.cnn.com (the headline)

Is Rove salivating over the fact that it's Massachusetts of all states that's going to be in the spotlight as far as this issue is concerned?

I know Kerry is not responsible for what the Mass. Supreme Court decides, but I don't think he's electable since he has a voting record which can be picked apart and now mostly because MA is quickly becoming more hostile to the fundies than Vermont.

Opinions?

[xultar]

1. Kerry said last night without hesitation he was against Gay marriage

I'm against it too becaue I don't want all the good looking men marrying each other. The ugly ones can. Not the HOTT ones, oh and Lesbians can get married also. Then there will be more men for me!

Back on message...

Kerry didn't hesitate to say that he was against Gay marriage. He mentioned nothing about Civil unions. HE did mention that he voted for the Gay Hate crimes law. Hey how could you not vote for a bill that protected anyone for being killed because of their sexual orientation.

I think it will hurt him with the Gay community. Clark, Dean, Kucinich have the best stances. Edwards is against Gay marriage as well and hedges on Civil Unions. A Kerry/Edwards ticket would isolate Gays and Lesbians. We can't stand for that.

[MurikanDemocrat]

4. Kerry and Edwards are both FOR civil unions

This position is not hurting either candidate as far as I know with the gay community.

[megatherium]

25. Kerry voted against DOMA?

If memory serves, Kerry voted against the Defense of Marriage Act (only one of 14 senators to do so). And I gather Edwards didn't know what DOMA was in a recent debate. (I hope that's not true.)

But, speaking as a gay person, I am going to vote with great enthusiasm for anyone but Bush.

[IndianaGreen]

26. I am against Bonesmen marrying the widow of a Skull & Bones member

particularly when the ex-wife is the sister of another Bonesman.

If Kerry is against gay marriage, then I am against Bonesman marriage.

[mitchtv]

2. So he should desert Gays to 'be electable'?

he's more electable than the rest. He should concentrate on fairness and civil rights for ALL. I like him. bot then again, I'm gay, and probably take the crumbs that are offered to me.

[anti-NAFTA]

5. To put it bluntly: Yes.

Gay marriage should be the least of our worries, and we shouldn't gamble the our security and our children for this issue.

Moreover, I'm an Orthodox Jew and I can see this issue being anathema for my community.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roughsatori]

16. Fundimentalism of any sort is anathema to rational human beings

Here is a site where you will find people who share your thoughts on gays: www.freewrepublic.com

When you use the word "our" in your post I almost vomited. Please NEVER include me in your bigoted postings again by words such as "we" and "our." Just use I, becuase that is the only person you can speak for here.

[Forkboy]

23. I think aid to Israel should be the least of our worries

"we shouldn't gamble the our security and our children for this issue".

[anti-NAFTA]

28. Who said anything about Israel?

Do you just bring Israel up because I have the star of David as an avatar? So, let me get this straight, you're accusing me of being an Israel-firster just because I'm Jewish?

Well, you're very wrong. I've been against Sharon's butchering of Palestinians and have posted before about how the entire conflict in the Mideast is perpetuated because of real estate interests.

...and I'm the one who gets called "bigoted" here .

[MAlibdem]

34. Lol

As a fellow Jew, I'm willing to take the Israel-first stand. Gladly. I was there a few years ago...it was great...quiet then tho.

I think withdrawl to 1967 lines (some variance for Jerusalem suburbs & slightly wider isreal...16 km is not defendible) is fine.

Poll after poll have found a majority of the "palestinian" (not a country) people in favor of suicide bombings even after a palestinian state has been created. Sh*t happens when you support, hide, and aid genocidal terrorists.

Has anyone reviewed the Wye Peace Accords. The Palestinians will not stop until they reclaim the whole of Israel (perhaps I sound paranoid...except the Palestinian PM recently said he wanted a "one-state solution", meaning he wants to wait for demographics to solve his problem when there are more Palestinians than Israelis...such irresponsible leadership).

I'm not saying the Israelis dont mess up a lot. But the issue starts and ends with the Palestinians.

So call me bigoted...truly I just hate to see the 3000 year old butchering of my people continue.

However, first and foremost I am an American.

[anti-NAFTA]

37. My point is that this guy is grilling me

on an assumption of his based on my religion/ethnicity.

I support withdrawal to pre-67 borders also and am proudly pro-Israeli. I just don't trust Ariel Sharon and would like to see his party, which is controlled by extremists and real-estate interests, voted out.

I also think America should be, at least ostensibly, even-handed on this issue. That means threatening to cut aid (Bush's sanctions over the wall is pretty much the only decent thing Bush has done) and stopping the inflammatory rhetoric.

Anyway, back to my point: the guy is calling me an Israel-firster when he doesn't even know me. There are plenty of Jews out there who are moderates on the issue from conservative Bob Novak (yes, a convert to Catholicism I know, but still ethnically Jewish) and Noam Chomsky on the left. I don't appreciate it when people judge me based on my being Jewish.

[anti-NAFTA]

29. No, who said anything about Israel? I'll keep kicking until you respond.

[anti-NAFTA]

30. I'm still waiting. Please explain.

[anti-NAFTA]

33. I'll wait. Maybe someone else will explain for you.

[zoeyfong]

35. The problem is, Kerry doesn't know how to stand up to repub demagogery

This why dean would be better in the GE; he can stand up for himself and what he believes in. Kerry might be able to cut it against what passes for repub opposition in Mass., but he obviously can't cut it on a national level. As soon as the rove machine sets its sights kerry, he is going to be toast. the only potential route to victory for anbody but dean is if bush continues to dive in the polls, which is quite possible. But if he should be riding some kind of bump in popularity during the election, kerry will not be able to challenge him.

[anti-NAFTA]

edit: triple post. please ignore or whatever.

[anti-NAFTA]

6. edit: triple post, please delete

[DrFunkenstein]

8. Kerry's Platform on Same-Sex Rights Is Hardly Crumbs

As part of Kerry's platform on gay rights, he supports civil unions for gay and lesbian couples, including inheritance rights, health benefits and insurance, family leave, bereavement leave, pension plans, hospital visitation, and survivor benefits from Social Security. He has supported legislation attempting to give these rights to federal employees.

Shortly after being elected to the U.S. Senate in 1985, Kerry joined in introducing an anti-discrimination bill. He was also one of 14 senators in 1996 to speak out against and vote against the Defense of Marriage Act, authored by Representative Bob Barr (R-GA), which was passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton and supported by Vice-President Gore; the passage of this discriminatory law allows states to withhold marital rights from new residents if those new residents relocate from a state where same-sex marriages are recognized.

He cosponsored and voted for the Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 1996, which would have prohibited job discrimination based on sexual orientation by federal employers, and was narrowly defeated in the U.S. Senate.

Kerry also voted for Senator Barbara Boxer's unsuccessful 1993 amendment to modify President Clinton's Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, which would have striked out language in Don't Ask, Don't Tell that currently permits the dishonorable discharge of gay and lesbian soldiers due solely to sexual orientation.

The Boxer Amendment would have stipulated for the president, as Commander-in-Chief, to be given ultimate decision-making authority when individual cases of misconduct occurred, so that soldiers are judged on behavior and performance, rather than on sexual orientation per se. The amendment also would have ended "witch hunt" military investigations based on unconfirmed rumors (of homosexuality), investigations which Don't Ask, Don't Tell, despite its title, still allows for.

http://www.votewithavengeance.com/kerry.html

Sorry if progress is a slow process, but you'd be hard pressed to find a better record and platform than Kerry's in national politics.

[mitchtv]

12. never said they were crumbs

but I don't expect any backdowns from a compromise position either. I support him now , any backdowns, I'll stay home.

[southpaw72]

3. i don't think so

I don't think it matters whether the fundies are upset. They're not going to vote for Kerry or any dem anyway.

What matters is what undecided voters in the center thinks about this. And I'd bet willing to be they're more worried about the economy and the war in Iraq.

[BootinUp]

7. In the GE? Of course.

The republicans will make the association, no question.

[Democat]

9. It will probably hurt him in the South

Then again, how many people who are strongly against gay marriage are going to vote for any Democrat?

[BootinUp]

13. Approx 60% are against

Gay marriage, thats 60% of Americans. I assume some of those vote democratic from time to time.

[Democat]

15. What are the latest numbers on civil unions?

I thought it was a higher percentage that supported civil unions?

Do you think that supporting "civil unions", but opposing "gay marriage", to start with, would give candidates some cover on the issue?

[BootinUp]

27. Don't know answer to first question

But to the second:

Yes.

The problem is that as you know there are many RW media outlets that will be used against our candidate. I can imagine that there will be a lot of talk about Massachusetts/Gay Marriage/Kerry all in the same paragraph if not the same sentence. It doesn't even matter what Kerry's position is, he will be attacked by association.

[NashVegas]

11. He Can Let

Dean go around the country, to calmly and rationally discuss the issue and why Civil Unions, at least, are the right thing to do.

And then he can sign the bill later and take credit.

[Southsideirish]

14. It will become a defining issue if Rove chooses to make it one.

I think it spells big trouble for Kerry and the potential labeling of Ma as a "far out" state.

[Tesha]

31. That was the *EXACT* spin by a Republican spokesman tonight.

It will become a defining issue if Rove chooses to make it one.
I think it spells big trouble for Kerry and the potential labeling of
Ma as a "far out" state.

That was the *EXACT* spin by a Republican spokesman tonight
on the TV news.

Rest assured that they'll have this concept perfected and fully-
rolled out in plenty of time to demolish Kerry in the General
Election.

Tesha

[roughsatori]

17. It is shocking how many topics are positively Republican lately at DU

:puke:

[Forkboy]

24. it's the latest rage

everybody's doing it!

I think I'll :puke: with ya

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

18. They're going to use this no matter who gets the nomination

From what I can tell it's pretty clear that the Republicans want to characterize the Dems as hell-bent on destroying "family values" and they will hammer this point home no matter who the nominee is. Even if we had a nominee who WROTE the Defense of Marriage Act they would still try it.

I firmly believe that the GOP strategy will be to make the Dems look as freakish as possible --- the famous Club for Growth ad about latte-sipping (or whatever it was) Dean supporters pretty much told me everything I think I need to know about their strategy. Demonize, dehumanize, repeat as necessary.

[Blayde Starrfyre]

19. He could handle it with a traditional conservative message

Kerry could perhaps sway people with a conservative handling of this issue. He can point out that this is for the states, not the federal government, and that if a state should support marriage or civil unions, a strict interpretation of the Constitution requires that other states recognize them as provided by Article IV, Section 1, full faith and credit. Moreover, as President, he is not a legislator, so he is not involved in the proposed amendment process. He could question why Republicans support unconstitutional legislation like the Defense of Marriage Act and why they want to impinge on state rights, and accuse them of selling out their conservative ideology to appease the reactionary religious right.

[AntiCoup2K4]

20. If you wanted to make civil unions the issue...

...maybe you should be backing a candidate who made civil unions a reality?

[Raven]

21. Kerry will do fine if he doesn't waffle.

He needs to have a clear opinion on this. He can certainly say that he's not responsible for decisions of the Mass SJC but he has to be clear on what he will support and he needs to stick to it. In the past he has been accused of being too equivical on some issues. If he waffles on this he'll lose all sides of the debate.

[Tesha]

32. That pretty well settles it.

Kerry will do fine if he doesn't waffle.

Given Kerry's record, that pretty well settles it, doesn't it? :(

Tesha

[HazMat]

22. He will have to fight for it anyway

This issue goes to the core of Democratic principles (and American principles for that matter): civil rights and separation of church and state. I think most Americans will support gay marriage once it is framed this way.

This is yet another reason why we MUST write off the South, --specifically, the old Confederate states. In doing so, we can start off with a more Democratic platform, so that even when the message is moderated for a general election it still would hold true to our values. It makes much more sense to pursue a Sunbelt/Midwest strategy because these regions are much more likely to be receptive to our message.

[nancyharris]

36. Same sex marriage should and will

Be an important issue in the presidential election for whoever wins the Democratic nomination. The MSJC ordered that on May 1st 2004 Massachusetts’ cities and counties must allow same sex couples access to state marriage certification. This is not a new law; it is instead the striking down of any state prohibitions (now deemed state unconstitutional). It WILL happen. There is nothing that can (or should) stop it.

All of the Democratic candidates will be pressed to either approve or disapprove of the SJC ruling. I would suspect that Congressman Kucinich and Reverend Sharpton would approve as they have indicated so in the past. I don’t think any of the other candidates will approve. They will no longer be able to hide behind “it’s up to the people in the states” as the people of Massachusetts had no say in this. Hopefully all of the Democratic candidates will find the strength of courage to support the Massachusetts SJC.

[59millionmorons]

38. Kerry,Clark,Edwards,Bush all have same position

civil unions. End of this discussion.