How dare Dean express his admiration of Jesus!

[stickdog]

And on Christmas Day no less!

This is the one day of the year when Americans can get away from religion and indulge in a selfish orgy of capitalistic consumerism. How dare Howard Dean drag his personal religious beliefs into this!

[HuckleB]

1. It's an obvious ploy to anger the DLC pagans!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[batman]

4. kinda like john o'kerry, im waiting to see him dance an irish jig

:bounce:

[Scott Lee]

8. Wait, didn't John whisper to a woman that his dad was Jewish?

I read that in a recent thread.....so make that "John O'Kerrystein".

I wonder what ethnicity he'll have "discovered" next week?

[windansea]

15. I wonder why Dean is hiding his wife

part of his god guns and gays southern strategy??

[Rose Siding]

19. And hiding her in plain sight!

...in front of thousands at his announcement speech. Diabolical!

[Forkboy]

27. so lame

I dont even like Dean much but his attackers are so pathetic at times it's downright comical.

[Scott Lee]

34. You can't "hide" Dr. Steinberg. She's a tough lady.

So your post makes exactly zero sense.

[TLM]

69. Yeah it would seem tht not using his wife as a prop...

means he's ashamed of her.

[Cheswick2.0]

75. she has a job

unlike some wives who do nothing for a living but inherit wealth.

[CTLawGuy]

136. he's not hiding his wife

she is too busy visiting with patients as a doctor to campaign for him. But Im sure I'm going to hear that Gov. Dean letting his wife be her own person with her own life is a horrible thing.

[mikehiggins]

22. If you're not just being sarcastic (which is okay with me)

that was Wes Clark who whispered to a concerned questioner that his dad was Jewish. He was trying to assure her that he would not abandon Israel if elected, as she feared others might.

[Scott Lee]

35. no no, that was John Kerry who whispered that his dad was Jewish

Sorry for the confusion. But then again, trying to follow John Kerry's wandering lineage is very confusing in and of itself.

[TLM]

86. Scott... get this.... Both Clark and Kerry have a similar story.

I think iI have this down...

Clark was the one who whispered...

"His father was Jewish, but Clark did not know that until long after his death. The retired four-star general was raised a Baptist, but became a Catholic like his wife. Now, he goes to Presbyterian services although he has not renounced Catholicism.

"I do pray," he said. "I do believe in the good Lord. He's been a very important influence in my life and I'm not afraid to say that."





And Kerry, it was his grandfather who was jewish, but Kerry did not know this until recently because his grandfather had changed his name.

[maddezmom]

143. yes,Kerry and Clark found out about the heritage late in life

Do you have a problem with that? I don't find it strange or out of the ordinary. What is your take?

[drfemoe]

28. nm

already answered.

[TLM]

68. No that was Clark

Guess he thought that was something to keep on the down low.

[KittyWampus]

10. Did Kerry Make A Statement About "Jigs, Guns and Gays"?

Does Kerry have a record of making negative statements about avid Hibernians that he now has to try and backtrack from?

[stickdog]

12. You mean when Kerry played the policeman in the Village People?

I don't know that it was that much of a statement. He was just getting jiggy with it.

[batman]

13. no kerry just claimed to be irish is all

and hes full of blarney.

[mikehiggins]

24. Uhhh, Kerry from Massachusetts isn't Irish?

Does Teddy Kennedy know?

Seriously, why isn't Kerry Irish?

He isn't a Brit, is he? I couldn't take that, not one bit.

It was bad enough for me when my childhood cowboy hero, Randolph Scott was outed. To find our Kerry is English would be just too much.

[Scott Lee]

38. What's hilarious is that he just found this out recently!

According to his account. It's like being brown-skinned, with a Hispanic last name and living in El Paso, and discovering at age 55 you come from Mexicans.

You gotta wonder about this guy.

[maddezmom]

43. where's the quote or link for that statement? n/t

[batman]

67. here is one story of many

http://slate.msn.com/id/2079783/

[JVS]

47. singing: RANDOLPH SCOTT!

sorry, just had to do it.

[mikehiggins]

126. Thats right, mock my heartbreatk

but what does "singing: RANDOLPH SCOTT" mean? Is that a song title?

[JVS]

141. There was a scene in Blazing Saddles where Sheriff Bart is trying...

to get the townspeople to join in on a plan to fight the bad guys. The townspeople told him that they were not interested and were going to flee the town and let the bad guys win. Sheriff Bart says "Aw, c'mon, you'd do it for Randolph Scott". The townspeople stand up, men remove their hats and hold them over their hearts, everyone sings the words "Randolph Scott" in a manner indicating a great amount of reverence. The townspeople join Sheriff Bart in his plan to defeat the bad guys.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

25. John FORBES Kerry indeed has Celtic ancestry

no blarney. he's Catholic too. No pandering from John on his religion either.

[KittyWampus]

50. Yeah, Being Irish Is The Third Rail Of Politics

Not like disrepecting Fundamentalist Preachers and their followers.. or saying you'll talk about God to Southerners.

By the way, did you know that Kerry wasn't even aware of all the details of his father's true ancestry until the Boston Globe researched them fairly recently?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

61. Yeah. Kerry's Jewish grandfather (Kohn) killed himself

over some bad financial dealings in the Copley Plaza hotel in the 20's.
He had already changed his name to Kerry by then.

[Scott Lee]

7. Wow, that sounds pretty racist...

You are aware of the connotation of "homies", right? Also, are you saying only "homies" listen to rap music?

Here's a hint: Be wary of the minefield on race relations. It will get you every time.

[bitchkitty]

9. I'm not surprised, are you? n/t

[Scott Lee]

40. Not in the least.

It's just that you have to out these things as they come. And boy are we being kept busy these days ;)

[windansea]

16. here's a hint for you

I am a homie...careful now..think you just stepped on a bouncing betty

[Scott Lee]

39. Sure you are.

And I'm the lost Prince of the Khosa tribe.

[windansea]

138. so you can see my race hmmmmmmmmmm??

based solely on these little black letters on a white page???

now that is racist!!

[drfemoe]

44. no I think he was trying

to defame Dean's southern "supporters". After all, Dean is not from the south. The only way to appeal to southern voters is to release a rap cd. yeah .. ponder that one.

[patricia92243]

3. Left -wing conspiracy - lol

[madfloridian]

5. And to have the nerve to say he wants to keep his religion private....

when everyone knows he wants to flaunt it.
Sickening.

[maddezmom]

29. he keeps it private

until it benefits him to talk about it.

[TLM]

74. Wasn't it Wes Clark who went on that rant at the debates

about how important the lord is to him?


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3607144

And I think that we as a Democratic Party have got to appeal and recognize the importance of a spiritual dimension.

And I certainly do. I do pray. I do believe in the good Lord. And he’s been a very important influence in my life. And I’m not afraid to say that.



Funny to now see his supporters attacking Dean for being religious.
Talk about hypocrisy.

[SahaleArm]

110. If that's a rant then I'd hate to see what you call Dean's speeches n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

79. you mean like when someone asks him about it?

?

[TLM]

87. My point is that it is rather hypocritical for clark supporters

to attack Dean for daring to mention his faith in the campaign, when Clark has already done so.

[SahaleArm]

109. Unlike the Master Panderer - He was answering a question in a debate

BROKAW: General Clark, let me ask you a question about the Democratic Party’s connection to the so-called faith community in America.

The “Economist” recently quoted some statistics from the last election: 63 percent of the people who said they attended church weekly voted for George W. Bush for president; 61 percent of those who said they never went to church voted for Al Gore.

Is that any kind of a commentary on the Democratic Party and its connection to the growing influence of the so-called faith community in American politics?

CLARK: Well, I know that there are concerns about the connection. And I know that the Republican Party is working as well as it can and doing as much as it can to try to strengthen this connection.

But the Republican Party does not have the monopoly on faith in this country, and there are just as many Democrats who believe in religion, they go to church, they read the Bible, they say their prayers, they believe in God as there are Republicans. And I think that you’ll see that in this next election.

I think what you had in 2000 may have been unique. And I think maybe the president, President Bush, had a compelling personal story about that.

But, you know, there are a lot of people who have compelling personal stories. And I think that we as a Democratic Party have got to appeal and recognize the importance of a spiritual dimension.

And I certainly do. I do pray. I do believe in the good Lord. And he’s been a very important influence in my life. And I’m not afraid to say that.

[hippiechick]

6. You'd NEVER see our fearless Christian Presidunce W

capitalize on religion or fear or any other personal emotion for a poll bump .... especially in the middle of an orange alert !!

Well, I never !! I'm ashamed, I tell you ... ashamed! at Dean's blatant media manipulation ... besides, I heard him say in one of the early debates that he's actually pro-Satan ... so, he's lying again ....

:eyes:

end sarcasm


:hippie:

[KittyWampus]

11. Too Bad Dean Can't Manage A Bit Of Aplomb When Speaking In Public

or on the record.

Oh, and because Junior does something... that makes it okay for Dean?

Dean's campaign gets worse and worse.

[batman]

14. campaign gets worse and worse?

i would ask whos rising in the polls?

[Scott Lee]

42. In some alternative universe, I'm sure....

[KittyWampus]

54. And Junior Was Doing Such A Splendid Job When He Polled 80%

Right?

[Demobrat]

17. Dean's campaign gets worse and worse allright.

For Clark.

[KittyWampus]

55. Exactly, Dean/Trippi Just Need To Keep Screwing Up

Thanks for concurring.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

80. Dean/Trippi Campaign Mistakes To Date

Confederate Flag comment repeated and allowed to fester in media before Dean finally apologises. Takes up one whole news cycle.

Sealed Records flap also allowed to fester for one whole news cycle. This after Dean having 2 years to come up with a better response than the infantile "I'll show mine if he shows his".

Gore Endorsement, which should have been 100 % positive, ends up generating negative press in part because they decided to do a photo op in Harlem with next to no black people present and after white supporters seen holding "African Americans for Dean" signs.

Dean skimps on hiring Foreign Policy Advisors and waits until mid-December to assemble his team... so that it's a issue that helps highlight his inexperience.

Dean announces his foreign policy advisors the day before his "big speech" thereby making himself look like the dependant newcomer he is.

Dean says he needs someone as VP to "plug his hole" in Foreign Policy.

Dean says he will talk about God to Southerners to garner support- this after disrespecting Fundamentalist preachers and their followers aand making a statement about "God, Guns & Gays". Apparently he is jjust realising that it's not JUST the Economy, stupid. Cultural iIssues ARE important, especially regionally.

[TLM]

95. Wishful thinking...

Confederate Flag comment repeated and allowed to fester in media before Dean finally apologises. Takes up one whole news cycle.


Hurt Dean so bad his poll number fell straight up.


Sealed Records flap also allowed to fester for one whole news cycle. This after Dean having 2 years to come up with a better response than the infantile "I'll show mine if he shows his".


HAHAHA Yeah really seems to be hurting him. THere's nothign there, and the supporters of other candidates are trying so so hard to make something out of nothing but they can not.

The files are being reviewed by a judge... and it drives the dean opponants crazy because by turnign the files over to a judge Dean shows not only that there is clearly nothign illegal or inappropriate in the files, but he also avoids the trap that his opponants wanted him to fall into by releasing the stuff himself so they could accuse him of hiding something.

And yet his number continue to climb.


Gore Endorsement, which should have been 100 % positive, ends up generating negative press in part because they decided to do a photo op in Harlem with next to no black people present and after white supporters seen holding "African Americans for Dean" signs.


LOL! Yeah the GOre endorsement really hurt Dean bad... causing his numbers to climb yet again.

And I still have not seen so much as one picture to support the claim of white folks holding these signs.



Dean skimps on hiring Foreign Policy Advisors and waits until mid-December to assemble his team... so that it's a issue that helps highlight his inexperience.

Dean announces his foreign policy advisors the day before his "big speech" thereby making himself look like the dependant newcomer he is.



LOL! And yet the numbers go up again. The only people who seem to think Dean is screwing up are the people who support the candidates he is beating.



Dean says he needs someone as VP to "plug his hole" in Foreign Policy.


Oh no, not honesty from a candidate... no we need someone like Kerry or Clark who claim to know everything themselves and be perfect, even though they keep making the wrong choices and supporting Bush.


Dean says he will talk about God to Southerners to garner support- this after disrespecting Fundamentalist preachers and their followers


So you think the only religious folks in the south are fundamentalists? Newsflash... a lot fo religious folks in the south are just as fed up with far right wing fundis as the rest of us.


aand making a statement about "God, Guns & Gays". Apparently he is jjust realising that it's not JUST the Economy, stupid. Cultural iIssues ARE important, especially regionally.


Why is it that every time someone refereces the god, guns & gays remark to attack Dean, they must do so out of context? It is because many people agree with what Dean said, since what he said was that we have to stop making god, guns and gays, the key issues in campaigns and instead focus on jobs, healthcare, and education?


And I bet that's why his numbers in the south continue to climb.

[BootinUp]

125. One thing seems certain

If Dean does go on to be the nominee, this ought to be one hell of a lesson on how not to win Presidential elections. e/o/m

[mouse7]

18. Dean left church over a bike path and raised kids Jewish

If a bike path disagreement drove him out of his church, either Dean wasn't too connected to his church to begin with, or it was Freddie Kruger's Nightmare Bike Path to the Gates of Hell.

Dean also raised his children Jewish. How strong can his connection to his spirituality be if he didn't want to share it with his kids?

I'm bluntly having a hard time with this development. After growing up in the Bible belt, religious hypocrisy is a real hot-button issue for me.

[madfloridian]

20. Wow,there, if I were Jewish I would be very offended by that.

In fact, I am offended.

Are you not aware that his children ARE Jewish? Or are you just saying things indiscriminately?

[mouse7]

30. How do you promote Jesus and raise kids Jewish?

I didn't ask Dean to foist his religious worldview on the campaign process. There's supposed to be a seperation clause in our Constitution, and I was just fine with not having a candidate not constantly evangelizing.

However, here we are with Dean's profession of faith all over the newspaper today.

Okay. So... now it's an issue.

Okay. Then I would like to hear the logic of how one professes deep faith in Jesus Christ, yet agrees to raise their kids Jewish.

The Jewish faith is a very worthy ancient tradition. However, there is one thing pretty obviously missing from the Jewish faith. Jesus. I have problems with the internal logic of a person claiming they believe in the divinity of Jesus while they allow their children to believe that Jesus either was not divine or did not exist.

[TLM]

82. allow their children to believe ?!!?!?

How arrogant... as if Dean should mandate his children's spiritual beliefs and insist they mirror his own.

The fact Dean respects the faith of his wife and has no problem with his children being raised under that faith tells be that Dean is one of those very rare Christians who actually understands and follows the message of christ... to keep faith as a personal guideline and not to force your views on others.

What better example is there of a man who is tolerant of other faiths than a guy who is Christian but who is cool with his wife and kids NOT being Christian. That's exactly the type of mentality i want in a president... his faith his for him and while he may talk of his faith so that others can gain perspective on him, it is not something he pushes on anybody else... even his own family.

I mean damn... I wish my the Christians in my family were like Dean. I don't even visit half my family on the holidays because I'm sick of getting the "when are you going to open your heart to Jesus" lecture every year.

[mouse7]

97. Not about children... It's about Dean's beliefs

This is about promoting beliefs that aren't internally consistant. In other words, I'm challenging how "strongly" Dean feels this spirituality based on the evidence that he's not concerned about his children being raised Jewish.

I don't believe that Howard Dean is a deeply spiritual person. Deeply spiritual people don't leave their churches over bike paths and let their children be raised in other faiths. I'm fine with Howard Dean not being very spiritual. If you look at all the back history, that adds up, and I'm more than fine with that. I have a problem with him claiming deep spirituality at a convenient point in the election process. I don't believe this profession of faith today, and I don't like people who aren't very spiritual wearing religion on their sleeves.

[IndianaGreen]

128. Are you saying that Christianity is superior to Judaism?

Doesn't that sound like that crazy Army Lt. Col Steve Russell in Tikrit, who had the brilliant idea to plaster posters of Elvis wearing a huge cross to "rub" the noses of the Iraqis in it. This is the same officer that said that God protects him from bullets, never mind he never goes on patrol, but stays back inside an air conditioned trailer while his grunts do all the dying for him.

Proselytizing is bad manners. It is the mark of intolerance to say that one religion is superior to another.

[mouse7]

129. Read #97 n/t

[rucky]

32. I AM Jewish and... well...not offended, but lemme explain something:

The Jewish religion follows the mother's bloodline. Therefore, if the mom is Jewish, so are the kids.

This so-called "hypocricy" you point out is actually a show of Dean's respect for other faiths. You also have a false understanding that Jews systematically reject the teachings of Jesus. I know of very few Jews who speak of Christ with nothing but respect.

Once again, Howard Dean is starting discussions that Americans need to be having.

[SadEagle]

36. Actually, IIRC, the Deans gave the children a choice.

And both of their children chose Judaism. But apparently some "Christians" feels it's problematic that a person doesn't FORCE religion on his children.

[rucky]

41. Good For The Deans

I'm in an interfaith marriage. Making it work takes some doing, but the payoff can really expand your views on religion.

[mmm]

56. When will Dean start 'saving' his wife?

After all, according to that work of fiction called the Bible she must be born again in the spirit of Christ to gain redemption.
(Has he told her about the gnashing of the teeth and
eternal lake of fire ((that he knows damn well does not exist))
that await those of a heathen soul.)
Does he ever rebuke her in the name of the Lord?!

At any rate, I am very disappointed that he chose to play the
religion card. I suppose we must win at any cost, but I still cannot
help being disappointed.

[rucky]

62. Do you want religious tolerance or not?

The other side has been and will continue to make religion an issue. Saying it's not an issue is unsatisfactory to just as many voters, and can be viewed as a cop-out. Damned if he do, damned if he don't. So if it's an inevitable issue, do you think Dean takes the right stance or not?

We're so good at dodging the GOP platform, but it'll never go away until we put these debates to bed once and for all by having them. We are on the right side of this issue, so why should we skirt away from it?

[mouse7]

64. People like me should be free to "cop-out" on this.

If a candidate wants to talk about their faith on CBN or the Catholic Channel, fine. I have no problem with that.

I want religion OUT of the news pages in any form other than as a background study to current events and policy decisions. The Constitution has a seperation clause. Our government is intented to be secular to protect the minority rights of those who practice minority faiths.

So what have we got? My cousin being forced by the state to teach Creationism in his Biology classes.

The neo-cons are using religion as a weapon to make people ignore the problem in this world. The coporate elite love the "suffer in this world, rewards in the next world" meme and are more than willing to provide all the suffering in this world we can handle to help people toward their "heavenly" reward.

[TLM]

91. So tell me again how Dean's faith...

translates into your cousin being forced to teach creationism?



You clearly seem to dislike religion and want it banished from any news bios of the candidates.

It begs the question about which canddiate you support, since as far as I know none of them are atheists.

[mouse7]

101. Dean's faith and all faith as part of public policy is the problem

Faith is not supposed to be a part of public policy discussion. Faith is supposed to be in church, not civic life. It should be obvious how Creationism being required as a part of a biology curiculum is part of this. Civil society should stick with what there is physical evidence for in scientific discussions. Creationism is junk science that can be easy disproven by picking up any rock on the side of the road and carbon dating it. It's completely ludicrous that religion is being taugh as science.

I don't dislike religion. I dislike someone else's religion being forced on me. That is the agenda of all this mess by the Christian right. An all-evangelical Christian America. No Moslems. No Jews. No Catholics. Evangelation of the world for Jesus Christ is the goal of the Southern Baptist Convention. No minority faiths. I'm tired of it. I want religion put back in the churches where it belongs.

[stickdog]

119. You sound a lot like Howard Dean here.

Too bad you don't understand that this cuts both ways.

You really don't have a spiritual right to hammer other people because of their own spiritual choices unless they bleed over into their policy decisions.

[mouse7]

130. How is creationism taught in public schools NOT public policy?

n/t

[stickdog]

134. It IS. And Dean, like you, is against it. (nt)

[mouse7]

81. I want the Establishment cause of the Constitution enforced.

The other side has made a mockery of the establishment clause. Religion and faith is not supposed to be an issue in an election. Religion is not supposed to be a part of public policy discussions. The Constitution says so.

[TLM]

93. Do you not recall Dean's comments about fundamentalist preachers

running this country?



"I want my country back. We want our country back. I am tired of being divided. I don't want to listen to the fundamentalist preachers anymore. I want America to look like America."

[mouse7]

106. Then why did he sound like a Preacher today.

I'm sick to death of religion from politicians.

The establishment clause of the Constitution is supposed to protect us from government forcing religion into people's lives.

If Dean want to preach, go to a church WITHOUT a reporter.

[stickdog]

122. Dean wants to take the country, the flag and even Christianity back from

the radical Right.

So do I. Will you help us?

[bearfartinthewoods]

121. maybe he just doesn't like fundamentalists since he was preaching

himself!

"There, before nearly 100 parishioners, Dean said in a rhythmic tone notably different from his usual stampede through policy points, "In this house of the Lord, we know that the power rests in God's hands and in Jesus's hands for helping us. "

[bearfartinthewoods]

118. dean disagrees.....he supports faith based initiatives.

to quote the dr.

"It's not a bad thing to have churches involved in delivering social services, but I think the president has used it to reward certain churches and make it less likely for others churches to prosper," he said.

so as long as the taxpayers money is doled out evenly, it's a good thing!

[stickdog]

120. No.

It's not a bad thing in concept, but it inherently plays favorites in practice.

[Cheswick2.0]

83. of course mmm doesn't want religious tolerance

mmm is not tolerant him/herself. Just read his/her post.

[stickdog]

94. Do you understand the concept of Jewish parables?

Only fundamentalists read the Bible literally.

[mouse7]

66. Remember, you demanded my response on this

Are you asking me if I have seen evidence there is a "religion" gene passed genetically from mother to children, I'm not only say no, but hell no.

If you're gonna ask me if I think YOU have a right to believe that, of course you do, and I would fight for the right for you to have it.

As for the teachings of Jesus in Jewish circles, it's my undestanding there is serious argument that Jesus Christ never existed, at least as a Jew, as the New Testament claims. I'm not going to claim which group believes what. I don't know that answer. I also know that between Orthadox and Reformed tradions you have as many versions of the Jewish faith as Protestantism has demominations. Then there's the Jews for Jesus on top of it which really confuses everything even further.

As for "discussions" America needs to have, I think the biggest one we need to have is about getting all these "beliefs" out of secular society and back where it's supposed to be, in the church/synagogue/mosque and home.

[rucky]

72. Nobody said "religion gene" until you brought it up

You're arguing for the sake of arguing now. First you condemn Dean for having beliefs contrary to his family's. Then you condemn Dean for having any belief at all. Yes, there are just as many personal beliefs as they are people - all the better arguement for tolerance & respect. Jews for Jesus is a cult, BTW - no place here.

[mouse7]

88. No... you're the one who invalidated a religion

You called "Jews for Jesus" a cult. For someone preaching tolerance, that's awful disrespectful.

Who are you to judge which sect/denomination is legit and which is a cult.

I clearly drew a line between what I believe, and what I defend for others. You told me I had to look at the "down through the maternal line" aspect of Judiasm and tell you how that applied to what I said about the Dean believes spread out in the Boston Globe. I told you I personally did not believe that religion is genetically passed from mothers to children. I also CLEARLY said not only are you free to believe what you want, but I would fight for the right for you to do so.

However, if you are going to demand that I subject what I feel about a subject, I will tell you what I believe.

I think the best suggestion on this is don't demand someone comment on a portion of your faith if you aren't prepared to hear a view that is different from yours.

Anyway, that's why I believe in the establishment clause. It avoids all thisw. We keep religion out of civic affairs and nobody gets offended.

[TLM]

96. You might want to check out that seperation caluse...

It pertains to the state mandating religious views or supporting a given religion over another... it does not mean that public officials are not allowed to talk about their personal religious views.

And again which one of the canddiate do you support?

Because so far they have all made statements about their faith.

[mouse7]

113. I'm ABB

I'm supporting the nominee. I really didn't like what I saw in the field.

I'm a Wellstone Dem.

[windansea]

21. good point n/t

[stickdog]

23. Exactly. And don't forget that the Jews killed Jesus. So Dean obviously

hates Jesus. What a hypocrite!

How dare he express his admiration for Jesus after raising his kids as Jesus killers!

[mouse7]

33. "Jesus killer" rhetoric is offensive

One can point to differences in theological belief without becoming offensive.

This is a question of whether one believes in the divinity or existance of Jesus Christ. One does not need to offend people to point to differnces in beliefs.

[mmm]

57. It does seem hypocritical, does it not

I wish he would have kept his 'religious beliefs' off the table.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

26. the bike path thing is pretty weird IMO

I don't think a lot of people will dig that as a good reason to switch churches.

[stickdog]

31. And, of course, the choices Dean has made about his personal faith

are everybody else's business to judge.

I mean, damn, us Catholics stick with our Church even when it ex-communicates us for being gay or pro-choice.

[mouse7]

45. They are everyone's business when vaulted to front page

Bill Bradley's drew a line and said don't go here about a few things, one of them was his faith.

Dean was cruising along with a few basic statements on his beliefs. Nobody was talking about them. Everyone was happy. Dean made the choice to put them on the front page for people to analyze. To be honest, they aren't very internally consistant.

I felt the same way about Dennis Kucinich's flip-flop about choice. It was clearly a politically-expedient move, and a rotten way to kick off his campaign that he never was able to recover from. Am I pro-life? Hell, no. But Kucinich WAS. I respected Kucinich more when he had some stands I disagreed with but understood how he arrived at his worldview than I did when he switched to the "popular" progressive view. Kucinich was a strong Roman Catholic from the Catholic Workers movement school. I respected that and understood that.

on edit-typos

[NewYorkerfromMass]

51. Also it is the reason he gave for switching. eom

[dsc]

105. This is his full explanation

clearly your computer editted it.

Dean himself made a decision about religion in the early 1980s, opting to leave the local Episcopal church when it sided with landowners seeking to preserve private property in lieu of a bike path in Burlington.

"Churches are institutions that are about doing the work of God on earth, and I didn't think was very Godlike and thought it was hypocritical of me to be a member of such an institution," Dean said.

end of quote

Apparently he took seriously the ideas we are stewards of the earth. That is in the Bible BTW.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

112. apparently

but he didn't say it. Good for you for filling in Dean's statement. That would be the exact opposite of editing.
That would be making things up.

[dsc]

142. actually we don't know what Dean said to her

since the reporter left that part of his quote out. But here is what he said to George S. on This Week.

Dean's own conversion to Congregationalism was a more mundane political affair. He'd been christened as a Catholic and was raised Episcopalian. But he converted to the local Vermont religion as a consequence of his battle to make over the shoreline. "I had a big fight with a local Episcopal church about 25 years ago over the bike path," he told This Week with George Stephanopoulos in September. "We were trying to get the bike path built. They had control of a mile and a half of railroad bed, and they decided they would pursue a property-rights suit to refuse to allow the bike path to be developed." Dean eventually talked church leaders out of the lawsuit, recalls Sharp, but other railroad neighbors refused to budge and litigated the case all the way to U.S. Supreme Court.

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/10/franke-ruta-g.html

The church involved was being selfish. And that isn't God's work. BTW do you wonder why the Boston Globe left out the fact the church was on of the land owners in her synopsis? I sure do.

[bearfartinthewoods]

124. God's work on earth is to build bike paths?????

who knew?

[dsc]

133. It is God's work to be stewards of the earth

funny the alledgedly religious posters can't figure that out and an agnoistic can.

[stickdog]

90. The simplest explanation?

Like a whole lot of Americans, Dean is a C&E Christian.

[drfemoe]

37. one possible

explanation is he feels more comfortable in a congregation with a sense of community and inclusion. I can't say for sure. Nor would I try to. I can be fairly certain that whatever choice Dean made was due to his personal beliefs and unrelated to making a show for the public.

[rucky]

46. As a voter, I want to hear Dean's spiritual viewpoint

It is interconnected with politics. Everything is interconnected, and all leaders apply their view of the world into their daily lives - and that spills into other people's lives. It's subjective by nature, and something a leader needs to be responsible & aware of.

[mouse7]

48. Then why THIS show for the public

This is more of the consistancy thing.

It's very convenient to suddenly decide right at this moment in history to go public with your faith in Jesus.

[TLM]

98. Dean has made several comments previously about his faith...

and the less than abrasive nature of his views on religion, as well as his support for the separation o church and state, opposition to school prayer, and his distaste for right wing fundamentalists.

So to act as if Dean only just made his views public today is either very uninformed or very dishonest.

[stickdog]

123. Yeah, how dare people renew their faith on Christmas! (nt)

[bearfartinthewoods]

127. yeppers...whenever i wan to keep something private

i talk about it to a reporter....

shheeeeesh.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

53. To be fair

He says in the article that they let the kids choose, and they chose Judaism. It's a good sign that he didn't force his religion on the kids. It's also quite common for the kids to be raised in the religion of the mother. I don't think this has anything to do with the strength of his own religious convictions.

As for the bike path disagreement, I'd like to know more about that. I do know that he was passionate about this issue, and it's what drove him into politics in the first place.

The spin on the article is unreal; reading the article itself, I have no problem with Dean's religious beliefs. I do think that religion should be left out of politics, but I don't know if that's entirely possible.

[mouse7]

58. Must have been an 8 lane express-bike-path or something

What the hell kinda bike path makes a guy leave his church and run for President. 8 lanes of reinforced concrete with overpasses and tunnels I guess?

The BIG DIG BIKE PATH!

[TLM]

100. Gosh did it ever even occur to you that just maybe

Dean's faith is not tied to any particular church, and rather is far more of a personal spiritual guideline and as such he'd have no problem parting ways with a particular building over some disagreement?



I've gt family who are freaky hardcore religious asshole who have switched churches over disagreement with a particular church's policy. Hell my grandparents switched to a different church once because the one they were attending didn't sing enough.


Are you possibly making the mistake of confusing a church with a domination?

[mouse7]

104. Dean can have whatever faith he wants... in Church.

Get church outta the government. The establishment cause in the Contstitution is supposed to protect us from Govenment injecting religion being into civic life.

Get it done.

[Padraig18]

70. Not that unusual.

My uncle married a Jewish lady, and it's quite common that the children be raised in the mother's faith, as my cousins were. :shrug:

[Cheswick2.0]

73. about a year ago

someone came to DU pretending to be anti Nader and the Green party. He then had a very public conversion to being anti democratic party.

[TLM]

77. Do not make the mistake of equating connection to a church

with connection to a religion or a spiritual life.

Dean is a spiritual guy... not doubt about that. However i see nothing that indicates he is dogmatic or particularly devoted to any particular denomination.

I think Dean is exactly the right type of religoious... where his faith is much more a personal guideline than a public display.

I mean they guy hardly mentions his faith at all, save for on Christmas day... that's not exactly what i would call a fundamentalist bible thumper.

[dsc]

99. His children got to choose their religion

Believe it or not some people don't consider their children vassels who have to do as they please.

We considered becoming Unitarian as sort of a compromise that wasn't going to respect either person's tradition," Dean said. "But you know, our religions mattered enough that we didn't really want to change."

The couple's two children, Anne, a sophomore at Yale University, and Paul, a high school senior in Burlington, were given their choice of religion. Both chose Judaism.

end of quote

The above quote is from the Boston Globe article you clearly haven't read.

[Hawkeye-X]

107. Raising the kids to be Jewish is exactly the right thing to do.

By our Jewish tradition, the maternal side of the family has the right to dictate on how the child should be grown up. Ergo, Judith Steinberg is Jewish, and she wanted her kids to grow up Jewish, and they are. Dean did the right thing by encouraging them.

I'll give you an ancedote to back this up.

When I was a kid, I asked my mom if she would allow me to marry a non-Jewish girl, she went ballistic. She said, under no circumstance that I was not allowed to marry a non-Jew. Being a deaf Jew is already difficult enough, but to find someone equal to me is near impossible. Fortunately, G-d smiled upon me and showed me a gem in New York at a Jewish deaf convention and I married her on March of 2000, with my parent's blessings.

Hawkeye-X

[IndianaGreen]

117. There is a whiff fo anti-Semitism in this thread

Dean's children are Jewish by virtue of the mother being Jewish. Apparently some posters are taking issue with Dean not forcing the children to adopt Christianity.

Here is a historical footnote about people holding such views:

The Mortara Case

Edgardo Mortara (1851 - 1940) was a six-year-old Jewish boy living in Bologna, Italy, when he was seized by the Papal authorities in 1858 and taken to be raised as a Catholic. His case became the centre of an international scandal and the catalyst for far-reaching political changes. Its reverberations are still being felt within the Catholic Church and in relations between the Church and Jewish organisations.

<snip>

Edgardo was taken to a house for Catholic converts in Rome, built with funds from taxes levied on Jews. His parents were not allowed to see him for several weeks, and then not alone. Pius IX took a personal interest in the case, and all appeals to the Church were rebuffed. Church authorities told the Mortaras that they could have Edgardo back if they converted to Catholicism, but they refused.

<snip>

Elena Mortara, a great-great-grandaughter of one of Edgardo's sisters, and a professor of literature in Rome, continues to campaign for an apology from the Vatican for Edgardo's abduction and against the canonisation of Pius IX. She has said she is "appalled at the idea that the Catholic Church wants to make a saint out of a Pope who perpetuated such an act of unacceptable intolerance and abuse of power." She explained that she "feels historically obliged in the name of my generation to ask if this is the example you want to give."

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

Pope Pius IX’s Controversial Beatification
(September 3, 2000)

Pope John Paul II beatified Pope Pius IX, an ultra-conservative 19th-century Pope, a move that displeased the Jewish community because he was the last pope to confine Jews to the ghetto. Also, he condoned the kidnapping of a six-year old Jewish boy, Edgardo Mortara. Mortara was baptized by an illiterate Catholic housemaid, thereby justifying his seizure by the Papal police under the law that does not allow non-Catholics to raise a baptized child. Pius IX also insulted Jews by calling the Jews of Rome "dogs."

Pius IX reigned from 1846 to 1878, the longest tenure in the church’s history. He presided over the first Vatican Council, which supported his decision to declare papal infallibility. From then on, all papal utterances dealing with the issues of faith and morality were considered infallible. He also supported the concept of the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusix.html

ADL Statement on Beatification of Pope Pius IX

New York, N.Y., September 3, 2000 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today expressed concern at the Vatican’s beatification of Pope Pius IX, who was responsible for the 1858 abduction of a six-year old Jewish child.

Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:

"The beatification of Pius IX is troubling for the Jewish community. Pius was responsible for the case of Edgardo Mortara, who at the age of six was abducted from his family in Bologna and taken to the Vatican by Papal police after it was reported that the Jewish child has been secretly baptized. Many European heads of state protested the 1858 kidnapping, as did Jewish leadership. As a result, Pius blamed Rome’s Jews for what he believed was a widespread Protestant conspiracy to defeat the papacy and levied medieval restrictions on the community.

While ADL respects the beatification process as a matter for the Catholic Church alone, we find the selection of Pius IX as inappropriate based on policies he pursued as the head of the Church. It is in the context of the many years of positive progress in Catholic-Jewish relations, including the historic visit of Pope John Paul II to Israel and his asking for the forgiveness of the Jewish people, that the beatification of Pius IX, whose role in denying Edgardo Mortara his family and his right to be who he was, is most unfortunate."

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/3630_96.htm

[mouse7]

132. Read the whole thread please... #97

I love how you're so quick to call people bigots that you don't even read posts that have been made on the thread.

I said that I don't believe Dean is very religious if he left his church because of a bike path and allowed his kids to be raised in another faith. That said, I have a problem with people who aren't religious pulling religion out conveniently and wearing it on their sleeve.

[Oreegone]

49. Someone has a problem with his children being raised Jewish?

Someone has a problem with his children being raised Jewish?

Let me remind you Jesus was a Jew.......got a problem with that?

[mouse7]

52. No... it's the claim of deep faith in Jesus while kids are Jewish

I'm questioning the front page professions of a deep faith in Jesus at the same time his children happened to be raised Jewish.

This isn't a question of what did or didn't happen regarding Dean's children. It is question of the internal consistancy of Dean's views that are in the newspaper today.

[chocolateeater]

60. Maybe Dean realizes

that you cannot force someone to follow a religion and have that person's faith mean anything. Each individual should be able to freely choose their own religion, because to do otherwise would cause anger and resentment, especially about the religion that was forced on them to begin with.

[rucky]

63. Please acknowledge post #32

n/t

[mouse7]

65. Okay, but you won't be happy with my response.

It'll be up these under #32.

[Padraig18]

71. There is no inconsistency.

My uncle is married to a Jewish lady, and their children are Jewish, while he remains RC. Yet another 'pseudo issue'... :eyes:

[mouse7]

76. Your uncle a Prez. Candidate in Boston Globe today?

I believe what I brought up is that Dean belief was put on the front page of a major newspaper. Is your Uncle running too?

[Padraig18]

84. Quit over=reaching.

This is such a non-issue, it smacks of desperation. :eyes:

[mouse7]

111. How am I supposed to debate you about your uncle?

You know you uncle. I don't know your uncle. Do you want to see me admit you would probably win a debate about your uncle? Fine. You would.

However, your uncle is not Howard Dean. While there are similarilties in the situation, I would venture to guess they are very different people. Therefore, a debate about your uncle would serve little purpose either.

[TLM]

102. So you assume that in order to have deep personal faith

you must force that faith on others?

[mouse7]

108. It is forcing it on others.

Was a person preaching his faith in the newspaper because he is also a candidate for President today?

Would Howard Dean have had a spread in the Boston Globe about his religious views today if he were not a Presidential Candidate?

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

103. No someone has a problem with Dean

and they're simply using this as yet another excuse for baseless attacks.

[mouse7]

115. Me? I posted the thread that proved Dean didn't dodge draft.

If you are suggesting I have a problem with Dean, I'm the first person wjho seems to have read the whole NY Times article about Dean and the draft. I saw that Dean actually voluntarily was seeking to enter Officers Candidate School more than a year before his draft deferment had expired.

So... please actually read the board before you jump to conclusions.

[bread_and_roses]

85. This is specious

...and honest, you seem an intellegent person, I can't believe you don't see the point of the objections. It's not about whether, how much, or how Dean admires Jesus. Even he didn't say it was. He said plainly that he was going to be talking about it in the South. HE sure sounds as if he's making no bones that this was a calculated move, not a sudden deep inner need to profess his faith publicly.

I admire at least the honest statement of motivation. But having put religion on the table, does anyone now expect people won't bite? That the particulars of his religious practice will not now be discussed? This is a good example of WHY any politicians religious life should be between them and their God/(s)/(ess)/Other. It is dangerous to a secular republic to make a politicians religion a matter of votes. That the Right Wing has done so does not make it proper or valid.

And it still comes back to he can't out-God Bush, and the hardline Religious Right will not vote for him. The Dems won without them the last three elections, why do we need them now?

[stickdog]

92. Exactly! It's just like the family who sat in front of us in Church today!

They didn't even know the words to the prayers!

Who do they think they are -- only coming to Church on Christmas?

If Jesus had been there, he would have slapped their faces!

[White Mountain]

114. If Jesus had been there, he would have slapped their faces!

Right after he slapped yours for judgmentalism!

[stickdog]

116. Which was the point of my little parable.

Along with the fact that Jesus was there, and was very happy to see His prodigal parishioners.

[bread_and_roses]

131. And what, pray tell, is the point

of your parable in relationship to politics in a Secular State? There WAS once upon a time, an idea that Church and State should be seperate in this country. There was a time when it was considered important that politics NOT be "faith-based."

Dean wasn't talking about what might make Jesus happy on Christmas. He was talking about using religion to get votes.
(edit for typo)

[stickdog]

135. He was talking about taking back Christianity from the radical Right. (nt)

[windansea]

137. what a great thread for christmas!

man my head is spinning....

love the posts where kids born to a jewish mother are raised as jews..."because thats OUR tradition"...smacks of sexism to me..guess dear old dad has no say...I am glad the Deans gave them a choice...which is MY tradition...

anyway....the main point I see in this whole episode is the further exposure of Dean's chameleon-like posing on issues...and he even admits it...he's going to start mentioning God more now as he stumps in the south...if he did this all the time it would be believable and authentic...professing your faith to win a certain block of voters is pathetic pandering...

[stickdog]

139. And not doing so is conceding the religious vote to Satan's handyman.

We need to take back our country, our flag and even our piety from the radical Right.

[amyforclark04]

140. Dean supporters in deanial.......

Again. The issue at hand is how will Dean's faith be able to translate to swing voters who are religious. Think about it for a second. He's angry, he's anti-war, he's taken a very secular approach to his campaign up until today (I guess). I'd be happy to share with people The New Republic's article on Dean's religion problem (e-mail me firedancer4683 at hotmail dot com). It brings up the role of Ralph Reed as a right hand man to Rove. Reed is a former head of the Christian Coalition, and will definitely make it an issue in an election with Dean as the nom that he's not really that religious. As much as people would like to deny it this country is not ready for a secular president.

Chew on that!


**Thank you to Jim4Wes for the heads up. Boy the DU folks are sure strict!

[BootinUp]

145. self deleted

[citizen snips]

144. Christmas is a religious holiday.

That is what Christmas is about.

[Moderator]

146. Locking...................

This is inflammatory. Also from DU rules:

Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry. Unambiguous expressions of bigotry will be deleted, and will often result in the immediate banning of the individual responsible.

If it is not clear whether a comment is bigoted, we will generally give the benefit of the doubt and assume the least-bigoted interpretation. However, individuals who repeatedly post borderline-bigoted comments will be considered bigots and will be removed.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view. This will help avoid misunderstandings and undeserved accusations of bigotry.


DU Moderator