I Called Out an Infiltrator Within the Kerry Campaign Tonight

[DoveTurnedHawk]

As you probably know, I am a die-hard Clark supporter. I've done everything I can to support my candidate, and I am optimistic that he will do well, regardless of the external spin.

Tonight I attended a gigantic Clark results-watching party in Los Angeles (Hermosa Beach). Everyone was excited and motivated, and we had a great night, especially when OK was "called" for Clark, and when he was giving his speech.

That said, a rumor was going around tonight that a Clark supporter who was in attendance at the party was running to be a Kerry delegate. (Please note, this is NOT a superdelegate. In California, the most loyal supporters of a candidate run to be a delegate of that candidate in order to support the candidate on the convention floor. These elections are generally hotly contested, and there is never any shortage of people running. Campaigns always want the most loyal candidates as delegates, and people who are not known to be loyal, or people who are known to be DISloyal, are routinely blackballed and disqualified by the campaign.)

I was shocked; I'd thought this person was a Clark supporter. So, never shy, I went up to him and called him out in front of several people: "I hear you're running for Kerry delegate. Is this true?"

He equivocated, "Well, it's a long and complicated story."

I was unmoved. "Yes or no, are you running for Kerry delegate?"

"Yes," he admitted sheepishly.

I went ballistic. "What the fuck? Unbelievable. Un-fucking-believable." I derided him throughout the room, and everyone I spoke to was absolutely disgusted. I called him an opportunist and a sleazeball to his face, while he tired to defend himself weakly.

"Look, I just really want to be a delegate, this is my career, this is my life's ambition, try to understand." I laughed in his face, and told him delegates needed to be loyal supporters, and that I quite frankly considered him to be an unethical bastard.

"Look," he said, "I still love Clark, and if it gets to the second ballot I'll vote for him over Kerry. But please just keep it quiet, I really just want to go to the convention."

If anything, I was even more sickened. I replied, "At least Benedict Arnold stayed bought." It's one thing to be a scumbag opportunist. It's another thing entirely to be a mole, a spy, a traitor.

We almost got into it. I was ready to throttle his ass outside. He backed down, though, especially when many other Clark supporters made it clear he was no longer welcome.

I have no patience for stupid shit like that. I love Clark, but I like Kerry too, and he deserves better than opportunistic traitors who would sell him out in a heartbeat.

DTH

[JasonDeter]

1. I'm most positive Clark would tell you, "No thanks" for your support.

Its disgusting to treat another Democrat like that.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

4. Clark's Already Thanked Me

And your tolerance for opportunistic traitors is obviously greater than mine.

I wouldn't want any candidate to have a false delegate. I'm surprised you appear to support that.

DTH

[JasonDeter]

29. That is so out of character for Clark its laughable. eom

[DoveTurnedHawk]

Do You Really Understand the Issue? (eom)

DTH

[Mairead]

48. A delegate is not a ruler!

A delegate has no right to opinions of her/his own. A delegate is supposed to be the proxy for the people who elect her/him, nothing more. The only reason delegates exist is because it's less expensive and takes up less room to send one person than for everyone to go.

For someone to pretend to be willing to be a delegate for one group while secretly planning to represent a different group shows either deep ignorance of what 'delegate' means, or a deep disrespect for the people being lied to.

[tobinov]

2. do you want to win delegates or the White House?

Be LOYAL to the cause: A Democratic White House in 2004.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

5. I Don't Think You Understand

Kerry will have no shortage of delegates. He will have his own loyal supporters as delegates, hopefully.

He does not deserve false delegates running as wolves in sheeps' clothing. No candidate does.

DTH

[tobinov]

11. But you treated a Democrat like a turncoat while...

losing sight of the prize: WHITE HOUSE 2004.

As far as I am concerned, every voter counts.
Every Democrat has a right to support who they will.
We need a win, not in-fighting and bickering.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

13. I Really Don't Think You Understand

Delegate selection is very different from being a supporter. Support whoever you want. But don't pledge to be a delegate and stand up for a candidate on the floor of the convention while secretly harboring loyalties to another candidate.

DTH

[tobinov]

17. No, I don't think you understand

the convention should be a formality at this point.

we need to present the next president of the United States not a bunch of bickering loyalists to the voting public.
we want the White House, and frankly, whether Clark loses one delegate to Kerry is not going to change the scope of this election--however treating a Democrat like you did, tells other Democrats that the Clark campaign is hostile... calling him a Benedict Arnold is not going to win you friends, or for that matter, more delegates.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

18. No. You Still Don't Understand.

Clark isn't losing a delegate. Kerry is "gaining" a potential delegate who does not really support Kerry.

Clark doesn't need this guy. We have plenty of people running for delegate. This guy is NOT a superdelegate. He's a wanna-be politico novice who wants to run in California for a position reserved for loyalists.

I treated a traitor like a traitor. He is not serving Kerry. He is not serving Clark. He is serving himself.

DTH

[tobinov]

23. really you DON'T get it

WHITE HOUSE 2004

you are boasting about upholding "principles" which will not mean s-h-i-t if Bush is re-elected.

Democrats should be united.

Let the guy go serve his own interest. But you calling other Democrats traitors is absolutely uncalled for and insulting--I would never support Clark after reading your excuses or rationale.

Call me naive, call me what you will, but this entire incident reeks to me of unsaviory bickering and boasting--exactly what turns most people away from the political process.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

24. Nope. I Still Don't Think You Understand.

This has nothing to do with Bush. I will support Kerry if he is the nominee, as will nearly every Democrat I know.

This is about an opportunistic power play by someone who has no intention of truly supporting Kerry. It's a mole, a spy. Traitor is exactly the right word. Opportunist is exactly the right word. Going to the convention under false pretenses has nothing to do with supporting a Democratic candidate.

This guy doesn't really support Kerry. Hell, I probably support Kerry more than this guy does.

DTH

[tobinov]

33. and I still don't think you understand

for the political minded, outing delegate "traitors," may be fun to you.
To the majority of the voting public, who desperately search for an alternative to Bush and his hawkish administration, this kind of political infighting reeks.

Not because a guy is trying to serve his own interests as a delegate at the Democratic Convention--but because too much about politics is exactly what you describe--bickering and boasting and too little getting the job done.

It has everything to do with beating Bush--as far as I am concerned, the longer the candidates bash each other over the head, the less chance we have to winning the White House and the longer Democrats call each other out, the less chance we have to changing the spirit of this country.

Your story is not one of victory to me.
Instead, it typifies exactly what I hate about election years--a total disregard for the issues at hand and replaces them with a stilted and splintered process to nominate our candidate. We go from heartfelt policy and great ideas to outing delegates.

Understand that this is about winning back our country.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

35. I Am Actually Trying to STOP Bickering at the Convention

How can you argue that this person deserves to go to the convention as a Kerry delegate? He doesn't. Kerry deserves for his loyal supporters to go. And he has no shortage of them.

I'm trying to stop an obvious mole -- something which he essentially ADMITTED to, so please don't try to claim I'm labeling him as something inflammatory, or as something he's not -- from spreading disruption at the convention. I'm quite confident Kerry's campaign would appreciate what I'm doing...that's exactly what the one semi-senior person I know within the campaign, who I told about this incident earlier this evening, has told me so far, anyway.

Please assign blame where it belongs, the guy who is trying to act all sneaky and deceptive, not against the guy who is trying to stop that stupid shit.

DTH

[tobinov]

41. Please

Forget the inner workings of the delegate system for a moment and relate to me as a fellow Democrat voter--being boastful and belligerent toward another Democrat is uncalled for; making a scene of it is just plain rude and all of it is disrespectful to why Kerry, Clark or any on them are running for president.

When I read your description of this incident I have no idea how I am supposed to respect you, let alone your candidate. I do not see you doing the Democratic party a service.

carefully read what I wrote before patting yourself on the back; this voter cares about ISSUES not infighting.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

43. So Now I Have To Respect Someone Just Because He's a Democrat?

I have zero respect for Zell Miller. I have zero respect for Bill "I Voted for Schwarzenegger" Lockyer. I have zero respect for admitted opportunists. I have zero respect for liars and deceivers. That's true regardless of whether they have a "D" or an "R" by their names.

Some Clark supporters might relish the idea of having a mole within the Kerry campaign, if all they cared about was winning. I'm proud to say that none of the Clark supporters I know supported that idea.

DTH

[tobinov]

45. again...

the infighting--this bickering and boasting--and this general lack of respect is NOT, I repeat, NOT a positive to the AVERAGE VOTER.

ISSUES over infighting. Focus on the White House.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

46. I'm Not Talking About the Presidency

I'm talking about a local opportunist and a very personal and human interaction within a bar. If you want to extend that into some kind of bizarre metaphor for the entire campaign, be my guest. I can't claim to understand that metaphor, but diff'rent strokes and all that.

As for me, I will continue to stand against deceit and opportunism, regardless of whether that stand is popular or not, here or elsewhere.

I also welcome you to address my substantive points, and defend the actions of the opportunist...if you can. You appear to be making this all about my attitude. That's your right, I suppose. But there's plenty of other levels to this, and I'm disappointed you don't seem to see them.

DTH

[tobinov]

50. not once did I defend this "opportunists" actions

it is your attitude--its ungracious at best--boastful at worst.
So there is an opportunist scumbag among the delegate ranks?! Its a sad commentary on many levels--however your approach, with all do respect, reinforces everything that is wrong with the process at the moment.

Just as the media and the candidates rip each other apart, you did not chose reason or compassion to level with this man, rather you went for the jugular and ran home to DU to boast about it--sorry but that doesn't say much good about the political process to the average issue-minded people. That is what I have been saying.

As for the other, I, too, am standing up against deceit and opportunism except it is squarely focused on BUSH who has only exhibited those two traits over the last three years.
Is that such a wacky metaphor?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

51. The Only Resort In Certain Cases Is Ostracism

I know this guy. I've tried talking to him before. Do you know what would have happened if I'd "chose reason or compassion to level with this man"? Nothing at all.

I refuse to sit quietly while people try unethical BS. I am a blunt, in-your-face guy (although I can be charming when I want to be), as anyone who has met me can tell you. I don't tolerate stupid shit like what I've described above. Sorry if you don't care for my attitude; quite a few people don't.

But I'm quite satisfied with myself, and tonight I've taken at least a couple of steps in favor of a more honest system. I'm proud of that. And if you want to call it boasting, feel free.

DTH

[tobinov]

52. then my advice to you is:

diplomacy using a baseball bat will only get you only two things:
1) bloody
2) enemies
then, be prepared for the consequences of your actions.


As for being proud of those things--I think it is disgraceful--that is my opinion.
Pat yourself on the back but I do not think your actions are justified.

I would have politely informed other delegates of the situation and not made a scene--let him sink his own ship--but hey, I am more interested in electing a president than electing delegates.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

53. I Think Tolerating Deceit Is Disgraceful

"Evil triumphs when good men stay silent."

And again, I don't understand your metaphor for the national campaign. This is a local issue, although it could conceivably have national ramifications. That's why dealing with it at the local level is so important.

DTH, Back-Patter Extraordinaire

[tobinov]

56. flogging is more like it

(re your quote: the problem is always figuring out who is good and who is evil...)

Act on the local level how you expect your candidate to act on the national level.
Not a single candidate would make it to where he is today without the interpersonal relationships... and HOW you did what you did is NOT going to win voters.
very simple.

that is unless you only understand confrontation...?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

57. I'm Not Really Interested in a Lecture

You disagree with what I did. Fine. I disagree with you too. But don't try to claim that Clark would tolerate some dishonest fuck playing a deceitful game, even if that dishonest fuck might vote for Clark. Because you really don't understand Clark, if you try to claim that.

Quiet diplomacy works sometimes. It would not have worked here. Hell, it didn't work here. Sometimes you have to stand up for what's right. Clark would, and has. I did, and will again.

DTH

[tobinov]

58. somehow the f-word and "diplomacy"

are not such good bed-fellows. But YOU make your bed...

I am not claiming anything about Clark--you are--that is fine, he's your man for the job--but you asked about the local/national and I gave you my advice.
Advice you cannot seem to heed.

So, good night.
good luck.
be good.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

59. I'm Not Really Interested in a Lecture

And I love my bed. And I love diplomacy. And I love fucking.

DTH

[tobinov]

60. then be happy to lie in it.

good night

[DoveTurnedHawk]

61. As I Already Said, I Love My Bed

And I love watching people trying to get the last word on me, I get a real kick out of it. :D

DTH

PS: I think you already said good night to me, about two messages ago! ;-)

[roguevalley]

38. I can't find the ways to describe how I disagree with you. This delegate

isn't a dem if he can sell himself both ways. I agree
with what he did. So. It won't change one vote. Not
one. But it put a fool on notice that he has to serve
the party and its interests -ie, the white house-
before pulling crap to help himself have an experience.
Supporting his sleaze is not right.

[bearfartinthewoods]

55. in the iowa caucas, i watched a dean captain promise a DK guy that

he could go to county and vote for DK if he joined the dean caucas. how does the fit with your experience?

[krkaufman]

27. What are you talking about?

What we *don't* need is Republican tactics within our own party. I salute DoveTurnedHawk for standing up for honesty and integrity. If the guy wants to be a delegate to the convention, go get elected as a Kerry delegate -- rather than a turncoat against Clark. Despicable.

[roguevalley]

37. This is bogus. I get what he did. He called a two face to get lost. This

man just wants to go to the convention. If he has to sell
himself to anyone to get there, so be it. No ideology, no
loyalty to the dems, nothing. This is repug behavior and
I am glad you did what you did.

Traitors. I want to get to the white house but letting this
happen won't change that. It just allows sleaze bags to have
it both ways.

[KissMyAsscroft]

3. I may be totally off...

but isnt that the norm? They pretty much switch to the guy who can win? I mean, is it really that wrong.

I am honestly asking because the whole delegate thing confuses me.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. Delegates Are the Most Loyal Supporters

They are the ones who will support the candidate no matter what. They are chosen from loyalists who will forward the candidate's prospects based on the electoral results from the state.

Trojan horses like I describe above are lame gamesmanship.

DTH

[roguevalley]

39. You're bound to vote for your guy. You can't just hop around.

[JI7]

6. there are probably others like this

i'm sure there are a few others like this. i'm not sure if they can be called infiltrators though. it's probably more common than we think. and i don't think it's against any rules either.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

9. So This Is OK With You?

Gosh, maybe I should run for Kerry delegate and support Clark on the second ballot if it gets to that, too.

DTH

[JI7]

14. i don't know

it just seems like it's something that happens more often than we think. i never really thought about it.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

21. Just Because a Ton of People Might Be Opportunists Does NOT Make It Right

Not to me, anyway.

DTH

[krkaufman]

28. You haven't thought about it....

... because you have integrity. It is simply dishonest. And low.

[sandnsea]

16. No it is totally NOT ok

Delegates have to be 100%. No floundering until your guy comes up and personally tells you to switch your vote. That's the way I understand it.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

19. Exactly Right

Thank you for being someone who actually understands what I'm talking about.

DTH

[Doomsayer13]

8. that's a bit harsh

I'd consider selling my soul to go to the Democratic convention. Exaggerations aside, running to be a delegate is only a formality. I may not be a Kerry supporter, but if I wanted to ensure myself a place at convention, I'd run as a Kerry Delegate. I'd figure that although working and voting for my candidate is important, I'd not want to miss out on an opprotunity to participate at convention either.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. Maybe I'm the Crazy One, Then

I guess I thought principles mattered.

:crazy:

DTH

[JohnKleeb]

12. maybe people like corruption

:evilgrin: DTH I dont know what to say about this. Youre right, no one deserves people like this.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

22. Thanks John

I appreciate that you get what I'm saying.

:toast:

DTH

[JohnKleeb]

30. sure dude

[Doomsayer13]

15. I dunno

from what I've seen and heard, the most important thing about running to be a delegate is actually being that delegate. I know a good deal of Gore delegates who voted for Bradley, they figured that delegacy and primary support were not mutually exclusive

[DoveTurnedHawk]

20. I Am Not a Fan of Opportunism

Maybe I'm naive that way.

DTH

[Doomsayer13]

25. I guess you have a point

I hope you don't have to see him at the Kerry camp if you end up going

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. I Don't Think I Will

I've already told one person reasonably high-up within the Kerry campaign about this guy. Again, moles like this are routinely disqualified from the delegate selection process by the campaign.

I just wanted to see if there were any others lurking about here at DU.

DTH

[ibegurpard]

54. I'm crazy then, too.

That "Democrats" would defend this or attack you for what you did gives me no hope that anything will change in the Party.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

32. Wow, More Productive Comments

No one doubts that I, for example, support Clark. Few reasonable people doubt that Clark supports the Democratic Party.

This guy ADMITTED that he doesn't support Kerry. Yet he is running for delegate anyway.

Sorry, but I've got a problem with that.

DTH

[Dover]

34. He's a democrat.

....

[DoveTurnedHawk]

36. Democrats Can Be Disruptive and Scummy Too, You Know

Just look at this board, for plenty of examples.

DTH

[NV1962]

42. You did well, DTH - thanks

Our guy is running carried by his integrity, trustworthiness and leadership qualities - not on the ticket of being a professional weasel, a disloyal scumbag and a follower. At least, that's what I thought; maybe others recognize those as honorable Democratic badges - I want none of it.

Thanks for having a spine and acting accordingly, DTH: it's a pleasure to do battle with thee.

For Scotland! ;)

[roguevalley]

40. No. He's an opportunist who happens to be a dem. I guess I remember

too many good conventions with people like Adlai Stevenson
and the like. A vote of support for someone is sacred. This
guy was a dick and he deserves censure. Good on you, honey.

RV, who remembers when your word meant something.

[ibegurpard]

44. Sad

Sad that this happens in a Party that we thought was looking out for us and sad that people are actually defending this.

[Printer70]

47. You Overreacted

Very poor form. He is not a traitor/mole/etc. I'm sure he backs Clark and will support him in the primary. If Kerry turns out to be the guy, he wants to attend the convention and be a delegate for him. If anything, he may have been a "mole" for the Clark campaign, going to the convention as a Kerry delegate and voting for Clark. When you lose your cool and show no class, bad things happen.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

49. Umm...Do You Understand the Situation?

I've already stated he was trying to be a mole for the Clark campaign. Just because it might be "beneficial" for my candidate doesn't make it right. I like to think most of us still have principles.

And I don't think you understand the delegate situation in California. You have to run for delegate for one specific candidate, and you are supposed to be committed to that candidate. You are only bound to that candidate on the first ballot, however, and anything after that is your own vote. Delegates actually have power when there's the possibility of a brokered convention. That's why campaigns want only their loyalists to be delegates.

I called someone out even though doing so might have been detrimental to my own candidate. I didn't hesitate to do so, however, because I know my own candidate would never support such sleazy tactics as pretending to be someone else's delegate.

DTH

[diamondsoul]

66. I'd have done the same thing in your shoes.

Sorry, but you're either loyal or you aren't, period. Delegates are expected to be loyal. This guy wasn't. Elected delegates had better be even MORE loyal in my book and this guy wouldn't have been. DTH did Clark AND Kerry a favor by preserving the integrity of their local campaigns. Salut!

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

63. I wonder how many other Kerry infiltrators are delegates for other...

candidates.

The Kerry campaign is using the same tactics Bush used against McCain during the 2000 GOP primaries. People that are that drunk with the need for power should never be trusted with power.

[HazMat]

64. You did the right thing

The reasoning behind what you did was sound - the guy was an opportunist and a traitor who was not going to represent Kerry or Clark or any Democrat properly.

You're not getting support for what you did here because most people on message boards such as this tend not to be mainstream Democrats, but ultra-pacifist far leftists who are overly willing to try to 'understand' people who are clearly wrong/unethical/criminal.

[joanski01]

65. Thank you, Dove.

You did the right thing, and I admire you. I wish there were more like you in our party. I am so proud of someone like you who is willing to fight for what is right. Go, Dove.

[waldenx]

67. you hate opportunists? What a joke.

Clark is the biggest opportunist to ever enter politics.
Your candidate didn't even know which party to run as, and you are here crying about some average person just looking for a ticket to Boston?

[ShaneGR]

68. You REALLY over-reacted

Considering he's running to be a Kerry delegate, who do you think he's going to vote for? If he was a Clark guy, he probably isn't now.

[robbedvoter]

69. DTH: you're a mensch, and so is Clark - that's why we love him.

Funny how people seem to put politics above integrity and be proud of it!

[adadem]

70. Good for you DTH

Though I am a Kerry supporter I greatly respect the General and could vote for him without a second thought.

The problem is that the delegates are voted for at the congressional conventions locally...it is very, very difficult to break through the blocs that are ususally already in place...so the most ardent, early supporters of a candidate usually get locked out unless they are are aligned with the bloc...even if a majority of that bloc earlier supported another candidate. It's not "fair" but that's just how it is no matter what your political affiliation...pug, Dem or otherwise. Still, good for you for standing up because in a "perfect" system the earliest supporters of a candidate would be the ones to represent that candidate. Most congressional conventions to select delegates are well after the front runners are chosen.

[HFishbine]

71. Running as a delegate?

Hell, it sounds like he should be running for office.

[Renew Deal]

72. Some states have to vote in the delegates.

I don't know about Cali, but in NY you vote for the candidate and also vote for the delegates in your CD.