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Can we talk sensibly about the estate tax?

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:11 AM
Original message
Can we talk sensibly about the estate tax?
Let me start by saying that I am completely and totally in favor of an estate tax.

The tax was started by one Teddy Roosevelt as a way to limit the tendency toward personal dynasty (Bush family, Kennedy family, many others). I don't think it was *ever* intended to prevent a hard working family from passing their (generally) meager gains on to their heirs.

It seems to me there needs to be some reason from our side if we want to be heard.

I think a reasonable proposal would be to apply a progressive formula to the tax. No tax for 'estates' (I really **hate** that word in this context) below some reasonable level, a modest tax for anything from that point to some higher point, but exempting all of the estate that falls below the minimum. Then another bracket, structured as stated. Etc. I don't know how many brackets are reasonable, but at some point we'd be back to the tax rate we had before reason was abandoned; maybe in the 75% or 80% range.

Now let's talk about real numbers. We just discovered that we're millionaires. This is the result of two simple factors. Our house has seen its value escalate at an obscene rate. Sparkly and I (neither of us only children) got very modest inheritances from our hard working, middle class parents. Neither of these 'fortunes' approached even half ... not even one third .... of what the current tax exempt point is. But, coupled with the value of our house, they raised us to just a hair over one million in net worth.

If you're still with me and don't see us as the enemy, you'll also understand that this seemingly rarefied financial territory does not in any way whatever raise us up. Our newest car is 8 years old, our second car is ten years old as is our beater truck. We still have a mortgage, albeit one based on a far more modest home value (we've been in this house for almost 25 years) and we still have some modest rotating credit card debt. If we tried to cash in on our 'fortune' we'd be homeless. We remain what we were when we started out in this world ..... middle class. Our parents were middle class. Our kids are middle class. We need to work in order to live and we have, apart from those modest inheritances and our bogus house value, no more savings than anyone else ... which is essentially nothing.

We also recognize that we're in far better circumstances than many and are very grateful for that. But the one thing we're not - even with our status as 'millionaires' - is rich.

I know it is our tendency - mine included - to rail against what we see as another benefit to the rich. Would that it were that simple.

I'd like to see 'estates' below some reasonable amount exempted from any tax. Or maybe a tax that exempts such basics as (generally inflated) housing values up to, I don't know? .... twice the local average value? Something that saves tax on the estates of hard working, ordinary people.

Sparkly and I are also self-employed. She's a sole proprietorship, I'm one of three partners. Our businesses are such that they have no intrinsic value - no inventory or serious equipment. We both trade in intellectual value. But what if we owned a business with intrinsic value? A farm? A store? A car repair place? A contracting company? I think these, too should be somewhat protected. It seems a crime to tax out of existence the fruit of one's life work. We work so we can survive, but we also work so our **kids** can have something. I'm not talking about trust fund kids. I'm talking about middle class kids who have to work as hard as we do for what little they have. Surely there's some formula by which modest family businesses - even if they are 'corporations' - can pass relatively intact from one generation to the next.

Did you know that, by law, I can not simply give my business to my kids before I die? They have to buy it. That seems somehow wrong to me.

None of these are proposed solutions ..... just random thoughts.

Anyway, this is a complicated issue and I have rambled far longer than I intended (I actually have some work to do that is on a tight deadline! - gotta pay those bills :) ). I'd love to get a serious discussion of this issue started. Hopefully I'll check back in a little later and see some comments.
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barrett 50 Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. There are a million households in America with net worths > 1,000,000
That is one in every one hundred households.

We need to stop taxing estates below 10 million.
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Romberry Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
78. Why ten million?
Seriously? What is magic about ten million? Why is it that large estates should be able to pass on untaxed capital gains tax free to heirs who did no more than win the birth lottery? The current law provides for 2 million per person/4 million per couple (and even larger breaks/exceptions for family farms and legitimate small family businesses) and that seems like plenty to me. I can't see supporting upping the level to 10 million bucks because I can't see any justification for it.
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barrett 50 Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. There are a million households in America with net worths > 1,000,000
That is one in every one hundred households.

We need to stop taxing estates below 10 million.
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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. The other 295,734,134 dont have a million!
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 10:27 AM by 8643
1 mill is what percentage of 295,734,134 total us pop? Like 1/3 of 1%!

Tax the fuckers, they have the money, is my opinion.
Why do I suspect you have a net worth of +/- 1,000,000. ?


fixed typo on edit

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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. We ought to just eat the bastards, and get it over with.
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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I dont want their flesh, I want them to pay their fair share. Too much t
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 10:46 AM by 8643
Too much to ask?

National infrastructure, a collapsed bridge kills rich folk as fast as poor folk.

Garbage collection, rats dont know who is rich or poor, its better all around if the rat population is kept down, history tells us that.

Quality Education for all. Research and on and on and on.

Basically the ideals and values this Nation was founded on. Anybody who has a problem with this is a closet fascists IMO following the GOP adage "I got mine, to hell with you"
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. With all due respect, that sounds much more like a rant than
a serious posit.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. How much would you like to see .....
... the millionaire 'fucker' in the OP taxed?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. Call the arithmetic police
You're confusing households and individuals.
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. The current rate is $2 million single, $4 million per couple.
That seems about right. All estates including $10 Million dollar estates should be exempt for that first $2 or $4 million and only pay taxes on the value above the threshold.
I think the Exemption should be adjusted for inflation and puffed up property values, but should never be eliminated. (California might need an extra $0.5 million inflated property exemption for heirs wanting to remain in the inflated area.)

If this wealth tax were eliminated, the super wealthy might never again have the opportunity to contribute anything to the country that allowed their ancestors to become wealthy in the first place. And think of all they could lose if the cost of national defense couldn't be supported on the backs of the working class alone.

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. I pretty much agree
Your $10M threshold seems okay assuming some progressive tax schedule for the amount beetween 2/4 and the 10.

What tax rate would have for the upper reaches? I'd like to see a continuing progressive rate structure, right up to the 80% range for the uber rich ($50M? $100M?).
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
37. Two million is certainly better than the $ 600,000
that had always been the rule until Bush started raising the limits.

I'd go for a compromise of around $ 5 million.

To me the biggest problem is the truly rich don't pay inheritance tax anyway.

A family like the Kennedys has very little money to be taxed. Their money is long tied up in trusts which pay the family members a monthly check, but have little actually to their names.
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
57. The $600,000 tax exempt limit RETURNS in 2011 as the current law stands..
In year 2010 there is ZERO inheritence tax per current law.
After that the Bush taxcuts expire in 2011, and revert back to
the old liit of $600,000 and a bove that is taxed at a hefty rate
of 50 to 60%.

I would go along with $5 million tax exemption for 2006 dollars
and then indexed to inflation as your income tax brackets are,
thanks to Ronnie Reagan. After $5 million, there should be 4 or 5
tax brackets reaching 50% for the richest. No family should be
robbed of more than half of their net worth upon death. If it was
legally acquired wealth, the kids deserve to get atleast 50%.

Finally, most millionaires are self made, only a small fraction
inherit wealth. It takes tremendous hard work and luck to become
wealthy ($5 million+) starting from scratch. Those who succeed
should be allowed to pass on those fruits to their kids.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #57
68. I'm reading Kevin Phillips' "Wealth and Democracy"
right now. In fact, MANY of the large fortunes are inherited, and because of trusts and other financial mechanics, those fortunes and the "new" tech fortunes of folks like Gates, Allen, Jobs, etc., will be maintained in ways that weren't available to previous generations. Without an estate tax -- without a tax that basically says to the heirs "Your daddy or momma may have worked to build up this estate, but you didn't do a damn thing" -- wealth will continue to accumulate in the hands of a very, very, very tiny group of people.

The mentality behind the estate tax repeal is this: "I know I am probably not ever going to be wealthy, but in the event that someone who IS really wealthy dies and leaves me their fortune, I don't want the government to take any of it." Pure greed.

For those families who build up businesses and bring their heirs in, there are many many ways to keep the company going and the estate virtually intact, and STILL PAY A TAX.

Remember, the dead don't care -- they don't need that money any more. It's the LIVING who want something for free and don't want to share.


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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. I distinctly recall reading that 3/4 of the millionaires in USA are self
made. Every lawfully acquired fortune has the right to be
passed on to their own flesh and blood, their kids. However
if the estate is passed on to someone other than the kids,
I see no problem in taxing it heavily.

Anna Nicole for example should have to pay a heavy toll for
inheriting $500 million for a few years of marriage.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. NO ONE is "self made"
They owe most of their opportunity to the entire society.

They owe the infrastructure to that "nasty government" that Norquist would like to drown 'cause it "never did anything to help them".

They owe their education to all of us who helped pay for it with our taxes.

Etc., etc., etc.

The "Self made" rich is a bullshit concept.

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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. Interesting topic.
My parents passed away without leaving any sort of inheritance to their four children. All of their money, roughly $1million when my dad retired, went to pay for my dad's rapidly declining health.

My FIL passed two weeks ago. He lived with us; we supported him. About 10 years ago, his wife, (also deceased) talked him into signing a quit claim on their house thereby passing it on to their daughter for the tremendous sum of $1.

My FIL had no idea that this document essentially rendered him homeless and penniless. We ended up having to rescue him from SIL because she was abusive. He had the legal right to live in the home for his entire lifetime, but couldn't remain because of her behavior.

So, in the end. There is no inheritance for my husband or my children, my FIL's only grandchildren. The house is worth about 600K and is all hers.

Because he died intestate, his meager savings, which totalled about $10K will be split between his daughter and my husband.

So, he gets $5K, and we get to pay about $11K for the funeral. Doesn't sound too fair to me.

The sole reason my MIL signed the house over was to avoid paying for nursing home care. I remain so puzzled about that. Who should pay? Obviously, the answer is universal health care, but that isn't happening anytime soon. So, should the government pay simply because you don't WANT to? I don't think that is fair.

Not necessarily on your topic, but along the same lines.
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Sadie5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. This seems strange to me
Usually the funeral director, when planning the funeral will ask how many children and will divide the cost between the siblings. If there is savings, house, insurance, etc. then the funeral will be paid out of those funds. At least this is what happened when my father died.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Nope. Not the way it was with us at all.
They will bill us in 30 days for the full amount.

Same with my parents. They billed my brother and we split it four ways.

It wouldn't be possible to divide the expenses if one sibling refused to pay, which is what we have here.

And, as I said before, the house is solely in her name. She isn't obligated by law to pay for anything. Morally, she is of course, but not legally.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. You're right ... not specifically on topic, but by no means off base.
Seems very much that you got caught in the throes of a law used by a person with less than honorable intent. I saw a very similar circumstance happen with my uncle and his two bloodsucking, greedy, asshole children (one of whom has the same name as me ... blech).

I also had an aunt who recently died who had a very modest estate that was sucked dry when she had to go to a nursing home.

Universal health care is the ONLY answer.
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primative1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
71. No, its exactly on topic ...
I read a number of posts related to our sympathies to those with estates of 2 or 5 or 10 million and then I read your post which brought me back to reality. Thats where most of us live.
Screw multi millionaires. Pay the tax.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. So, you still owe nothing in estate taxes if you die tomorrow. What
the GOP is trying to eliminate is all estate taxes. Currently, the total amount taxed must be above $2 million. This is through 2008.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108143,00.html
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. I, for one, would never call for an elimination of the estate tax.
I just want some moderation so truly ordinary people are not caught in the same net.
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
58. If he and his wife die after 2010, aprox 50% will be taxed after $600,000
since the Bush reductions expire in 2010. I advise him to kill
himself in 2010 after killing his wife.....just kidding.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. As I understand it
and from the cursory reading of the dreaded Form 709 I was able to do before I got my transplant and my vision really went to hell, there has always been an exemption for business and farm property so that neither would be destroyed by the imposition of inheritance tax.

That was only the GOP smokescreen.

The uber rich have always wanted to hand intact fortunes on to heirs, primarily the first born male, something their ancestors fled in Europe. They have always wanted to recreate the European hereditary aristocracy, only with themselves as the aristocrats this time. Therein lies the problem with the abolition of the inheritance tax, the creation of the very thing all our ancestors fled, a rigid caste system based on inherited money.

There are other unintended consequences of eliminating the inheritance tax, such as eliminating the need for the foundations the wealthy have always used to pay their heirs lavish salaries in lieu of direct inheritance. Although most of the foundation money disappears into the foundation death spiral, a certain (low) percentage has to be disbursed to the worthy causes its charter states it is set up to help. Ending the tax will cripple a lot of genuine charitable institutions.

Of all the economic evils visited upon this country by the unholy alliance of the rich and the religiously insane, this may prove to be the worst in the area of unintended consequences. It has the potential to destroy this country utterly and permanently.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. I hope you don't think I was calling for the elimination of the estate tax
I am absolutely and unequivocaly NOT doing that. I want to see it strengthened and to see the top rates go **way** up ... to the 80% range or thereabouts.

What I *am* proposing is asome moderation or even elimination at the bottom of the scale where most **ordinary* folks find themselves.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Nope, I know you're basically a sensible sort
but I was clarifying the fact that businesses and farms are already protected, and were so before Stupid got his giveaway to plutocrat larvae passed.

The rest was a rant. I thought it was a pretty good rant.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. .
:hug:
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
51. No, you stated clearly in the OP that you were in favor of keeping it. n/
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
55. Uhh, there IS an elimination at the bottom of the scale. Always has been.
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Not Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. Estates pass freely from one spouse to another,
but not to a (gay) life partner. Yet another reason why marriage equality is necessary.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. I'm right there with you, my friend.
As I am making this estate tax proposal, I am also fully in favor of total marriage equality .... including the use of terms and the weight of law.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. Bravo. The estate tax must be reasonably discussed.

I believe that cash legacies, estates of non-primary-residential property, family heirlooms over a particular sum value, collections of expensive toys and doodads, large quantities of stocks/bonds or other investments, should be taxed. I also believe that trust accounts for minors/children should be exempt up to a certain value.

Congratulations on your millionairehood!
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clmbohdem Donating Member (296 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
12. The problem is no Estate Tax + no capitol gains tax = free ride
For example, Thurston Howl III child (let's call him Smedly) inherited $100 Million. At a modest investment rate of 5%, Smedly would earn $5 Million annually tax free. Smedly would then pass this original $100 Million onto his children, who in turn would never pay taxes.

What needs to be done is raise the old exemption level of $650,000 to something like $5 or $10 million. This what the Dems wanted but the GOP rejected.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
13. Tradition is the only argument for lowering the estate tax
a fine tradition which maintains ancient class separations of nobility vs. the great unwashed masses. Oh--for many, it maintains a tradition of inescapable oppression, too.

Your kids don't have to buy your business. You can give it to them. They will be taxed on it.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. Estate tax repeal just A One Trillion dollar misunderstanding
A One Trillion dollar misunderstanding – The need for Estate Tax repeal.

I was trying to understand the other day how discussion of the estate tax has lead to a vote in the next few days on repealing the estate tax. Do folks not know that portion of an estate that is exempt from taxation has doubled since 2000 to $2 million ($4 million per couple) in 2006, with the current law stating that it will rise to $3.5 million ($7 million per couple) in 2009? Do folks not know that the above has caused the number of estates being taxed each year to drop 75% compared to what it would have been under pre-20001 law, with the 2009 increase in the exemption level causing that low number to drop by about another 50%? In 2006 only five out of every 1,000 people who die this year (and about half that in 2009) will pay any estate tax. It is estimated that only 123 farms, and 135 small businesses, would have paid any estate tax in 2006, and that for 2009 this drops to 100 family businesses and only 65 farm estates (few call these "family farms"), with only 13 farms facing a liquidity constraint because of failure to put aside money in bank accounts, stocks, bonds or insurance, perhaps forcing them to use the allowed spreading of the estate tax payments over a 14-year period in order to avoid a sale of the farm estate.

The goal of any estate tax reform should be to relieve smaller estates from the tax while capturing the unpaid capital gains tax at the same tax rate applied to wage income, thereby preserving a large share of estate tax revenue and focusing the tax on those wealthy estates most able to pay. The GOP has no plan for replacing the One Trillion of revenue lost over 10 years, other than passing it onto the backs of future children as a “birth tax increase”. What is the reasoning for the repeal the "death tax" -and it is not a death tax since it only tries to capture the unpaid capital gains tax at the income tax rates applied to wages –that is a goal of the GOP despite the corresponding increase in the birth tax - the deficit caused national debt that future births must handle? Are the GOP being truthful when they say repeal is a needed benefit for Farms and Small Businesses?

Perhaps the GOP has not read the Congressional Budget Office study. “Effects of the Federal Estate Tax on Farms and Small Businesses,” July 2005, which exploded the myth that family farms and businesses must be sold to pay the tax? The CBO study analyzed how many farm and family-owned business estates would have been subject to tax in 2000 had the 2006 exemption level of $2 million ($4 million per couple) been in place. It found that the number of taxable farm estates would have fallen by more than 90 percent and the number of taxable family-owned businesses by almost three-quarters. Only 123 farms, and 135 small businesses, would have paid any estate tax

To fix this non-problem, Senator Jon Kyl wants to raise the exemption level to $5 million ($10 million per couple) and slash the rate by two-thirds, to 15 percent, at a cost in terms of an increase in the average kids birth tax that is only 84% of the cost of full repeal, based on estimates by the Joint Committee on Taxation, with as always under a GOP tax cut idea, about 76 percent of the tax cut benefit going to the unfortunate folks inheriting estates valued at more than $10 million.

I know the GOP would never lie to us so as to help the rich, so it is sad to see these poor folks showing themselves to be uninformed and incompetent legislators.

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Thanks for a cogent and on-point summary
I'm not one who is good at numbers and dollars ...... but this seems reasonable. I don't know if 5 or 10 or 4 or 2 million are the *right* numbers, but they all sorta 'feel' reasonable to me.

I think where I differ from the mainstream is the lack of progressivity in the tax structure. I'd like to see more exemptioon at the bottom end and a huge increase at the top (above 50? 100? million). I want to see the top rate up in the 80% range - essentially capable of wiping out a dynasty, but still allowing 'reasonable' wealth to transfer.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. The idea that the top rate is now under 55% is disturbing to me also
It should kick in at 1,000,000 per year adjusted gross income before any special treatment of investment income, and ideed there should be no special treatment of investment income.

And Estates over $1 billion should be at 55%.

And I don't think those numbers are all that "left".

:-)
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
59. What you failed to note is that the exempt limit reverts to $600,000 after
the current reductions expire in 2010. Under surrent law, death
tax in 2011 will be 55% of any assets over $600,000.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
23. we often think too narrowly about taxation
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 11:40 AM by welshTerrier2
the tax policies we call for should reflect our values and should reflect the society we believe in ... we often think of tax policies merely as rich versus poor or degrees of progressivity or we think of their forms and schedules and arcane laws or of expensive tax preparers and attorneys needed to adhere to them ...

but before we design any tax policy, we should try to agree on the goals we're trying to achieve ...

consider a poor community with a few rich citizens and many middle class or poor citizens ... they are trying to fund a reasonable level of police and fire ... taxing the middle and lower classes, even at high rates, might not allow the community to fund the necessary programs like schools, police and fire ... so, before even considering "tax fairness", we start with the premise that we need to tax the wealthy at higher rates because our community has real needs that only with their "extra" help can be met ...

and then we move quickly to tax fairness ... tax rates should be based on "ability to pay" ... regressive taxes, e.g. sales taxes and property taxes, should be eliminated completely ... if sales taxes remain, they should never be assessed on "necessities" like food, clothing and healthcare ...

income tax rates should be highly progressive with large exemptions for lower incomes ... income from labor should always be taxed at lower rates, unlike the capital gains "discount", than investment income ... this would not apply to lower income people ...

loopholes must be closed ... people "sheltering" money overseas (i.e. cheating their country) should be executed as traitors ... well, OK, maybe we should just call them bad names and stuff ... i've studied tax theory in detail; it's a parade of escape clauses ...

but all this pales when measured against the primary societal objectives ... the highest ideal embodied in the founding of our country is a commitment to democracy and the spirit of one man (or woman), one vote ... big money has all but poisoned this ideal ...

we all know the truth about our government: it's the best government money can buy ... we know it's no longer a government of the common man ... we know that money is power and that our government no longer aspires to serve the best interests of all its citizens; we know it serves only those who can afford the fare ...

the proposed solutions vary ...

the "liberals" call for a couple of "worth a try" changes ... first, they call for lobby reform ... they say "let's do whatever is necessary to stop big money from influencing legislation and policy" ... second, they call for campaign finance reform ... they say "let's take the money out of the electoral process to remove the temptation for legislators to cater to any given business or industry."

fine ... both of these ideas should be implemented ... neither has ever made a damned bit of difference ... should we try these approaches again? again, fine ... go ahead and give them a try ... if they achieve the stated objective, we're all set ... the bad news? the never have and they never will work ...

so, what's left (pun intended)?

what's left is a more draconian approach to taxation ... it says that the accumulation of "too much wealth" leads to an inherent abuse of power and a corruption of our democratic institutions ... it says that we cannot allow too great a difference between the wealthiest and the common man ... is it socialism or some other emotion ladened label? or is its focus on an improved democracy? frankly, the labels don't, or at least shouldn't, matter ...

estate taxes, the topic raised in the OP, are among the worst villains of all ... they are far too lenient ... we cannot allow the development of an uber-class through the generational passing down of great fortunes ... there's something very undemocratic, worse yet anti-democratic, in allowing the perpetuation of "born with a silver spoon in his mouth" to be embodied in our tax laws ... estate taxes should be set at a 100% rate for estate values above "some" amount ...

well, i can just hear the naysayers preparing their "yeah buts" ... that's socialism!! ... i worked hard for that money; why can't i give it to my kids if i want to? why do you trust the government to do the right thing with my hard-earned estate? they'll just spend it on big military weapons systems anyway ... who's going to decide how much we can keep, you????

all good questions ... before providing any of these details, we should agree on the policy objective ... do we agree that big money has poisoned our democracy? do we agree that as a first step, we should try lobby reform and campaign finance reform (like publically financed campaigns)? do we agree that if these preliminary measures fail, and they will, that we MUST GO FURTHER to stop the abuses of big money? "liberals" have trouble with that last one ... but what's their "phase II" solution if the first steps don't work? they never seem willing to go further ... and the problem never gets resolved ...

so, how much can you keep? what if your house is worth millions? and more and more and more questions ... the goal is NOT to make every person exactly on the same financial level ... the goal is NOT to take away anyone's primary residence ... in fact, one objective should be to leave each citizen with as much of their wealth as possible once the societal objectives have been met ... the amount of estate value exempt from any estate tax might be $2 million or $5 million or whatever amount would drastically reduce the likelihood that you could buy yourself a government ...

by looking at taxation as we should look at any policy, we're more likely to achieve the society we believe in ... ultimately, our highest ideals of freedom to participate in our government with an equal voice for each citizen should determine the policy ... big money clearly is an enemy of democracy ... we should respect the individual's right to amass wealth but not when doing so corrupts the values on which the country was founded ...
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. And once again ........
..... there's not a whole hell of a lot of difference in our views. I commend you taking a very different base point of view (using the tax code to effect a specific goal) rather than the seemingly more selfish (how can I manage to keep my modest but obscene sounding estate for my kids). But in the end, what was unsaid and completely unaddressed in my OP was **why** I want to see a change in the estate tax (I called for more shelter at the bottom and far more draconian rates at the top end). You've eloquently added the 'why' dimension.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Great points welshTerrier2. To add to your argument, I would urge people
to consider who is lobbying for the repeal of the estate tax, and who will have the most input into the final legislation that comes out of Congress.

Public Citizen and United for a Fair Economy Expose Stealth Campaign of Super-Wealthy to Repeal Federal Estate Tax: Report Identifies 18 Families Behind Multimillion-Dollar Deceptive Lobbying Campaign

WASHINGTON, D.C. – The multimillion-dollar lobbying effort to repeal the federal estate tax has been aggressively led by 18 super-wealthy families, according to a report released today by Public Citizen and United for a Fair Economy at a press conference in Washington, D.C. The report details for the first time the vast money, influence and deceptive marketing techniques behind the rhetoric in the campaign to repeal the tax.

It reveals how 18 families worth a total of $185.5 billion have financed and coordinated a 10-year effort to repeal the estate tax, a move that would collectively net them a windfall of $71.6 billion.

The report, available at www.faireconomy.org/reports/2006/EstateTaxFinal.pdf, profiles the families and their businesses, which include the families behind Wal-Mart, Gallo wine, Campbell’s soup, and Mars Inc., maker of M&Ms. Collectively, the list includes the first- and third-largest privately held companies in the United States, the richest family in Alabama and the world’s largest retailer.

These families have sought to keep their activities anonymous by using associations to represent them and by forming a massive coalition of business and trade associations dedicated to pushing for estate tax repeal. The report details the groups they have hidden behind – the trade associations they have used, the lobbyists they have hired, and the anti-estate tax political action committees, 527s and organizations to which they have donated heavily.

more at:

http://www.faireconomy.org/press/2006/pc_and_ufe_expose_campaign.html
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Deep Throat said it best ...
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 01:24 PM by welshTerrier2
"follow the money" ...

thanks for the link ... i'll check it out ...

those who put their own selfish greed above the best interests of the country and all of its people should be executed as traitors ...

errrrr, ummmm, i mean they should be called bad names and stuff ...
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. How about the Walton family as the "Welfare queens" of the 21st century?
Recall Ronald Reagan's infamous, fictitious black female "welfare queen" who drove a Cadillac and ripped off welfare? Well, the real "welfare queens" of today are the Walton family who have driven down wages, off-shored jobs, who have shifted the cost of health care for their employees to the taxpayers, who reap billions in taxpayer subsidies for every new store they open.

Here's an excerpt from a great article titled "Beyond the Wal-Mart Economy":


In fact, federal taxpayers spend an average of $420,750 for each 200-person Wal-Mart store because many of its employees receive Section 8 housing assistance, low-income tax credit, low-income energy assistance, free or reduced school
lunches, food stamps, and other assistance, according to a study by the Democratic Staff of the House Committee on Education and the Workforce.

Furthermore, taxpayers often subsidize Wal-Mart’s expansion into new towns, as the company actively shops for incentive packages from local governments, promising new
jobs and other benefits. As of 2004, Phil Mattera and his colleagues had identified many different types of Wal-Mart subsidies, including free or low-cost land, road construction projects, and income tax credits, totalling more than a billion dollars in assistance to Wal-Mart—the largest corporation
in the world.

more at:

http://www.coopamerica.org/PDF/WalMartCAQ68.pdf

Isn't it interesting that the biggest recipients of corporate welfare are demanding that their heirs pay no inheritance taxes despite the fact that the profits of Wal-Mart rely heavily on taxpayer subsidies?

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
25. Is your biggest worry in life that you'll have to pay taxes when you die?
I don't mean to sound insensitive, but it'd be really cool if we all had this problem.

The current estate tax is graduated, and the basic premise of raising it is that money earned through inheritance is so noble that it should be taxed less than money earned through work.

I have a better idea. Let's give each of your kids a 50% tax break on the money they earn through work and make it up by a higher tax on estates.

http://www.cbpp.org/pubs/estatetax.htm
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Why not do both?
Did you selectively ignore the part about raising to extremely high levels the top rate?

Would you rather I just turn in my Dem voter card and be a Republican? Do you really think this is the only issue I care about?

Your post didn't seem insensitive. It *seemed* immature, unfounded and insulting.

If you expanded on why you feel as you do, I can be convinced otherwise.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
54. The problem isn't insufficient taxation on high incomes
It's the absence of taxation on wealth.

As has been observed elsewhere in this thread, Republicans are successfully eliminating taxation on all forms of unearned income, one form of which is the accumulated house value you intend to leave your heirs.

I fail to see the vital, crippling, injustice of a tax that (a lucky person) faces once (or maybe twice) in their life as opposed to a tax that bites wage-earners every payday.

Taxes are too high on wages because they are for all practical purposes nonexistent on capital.

I'm sorry it sounded insulting - but given the choice between dishonest and insulting, I'll pick the latter.

Estate taxes are not unjust, and they should apply to wealthy Democrats too. If the issue is the potential for losing the votes of the 2/10'ths of one percent of the Democrat population who either intend to leave (or inherit) more than $2 million - I'd take that risk.
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. Why not tax EVERYTHING at death of those 2/10th of 1% since the
loss of votes is negligible?

What you fail to understand is that when a business owner dies,
and his/her heirs have to pay 55% or more in death tax, the
business, the farm, the inflated home...etc also dies since the
heirs can not pay 55% of the business value in taxes. When the
business dies, so do the jobs, income taxes from the business,
and goods/services provided by the business. You are probably
not a business owner/farmer/home owner of a pricey house/etc
so for you it is just fine that we tax away the rightful
inheritence of the kids.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Give me an example. Just one, of a family farm that was lost...
...to the estate tax.

A 100% tax on estates over $2 million would just about offset our current tax on wages and would also create the meritocratic society we pretend to be. A poor person born into the "old money" countries of europe have a greater potential of being successful than one born here. In my opinion, this should applies to farms too. Ending inherited wealth isn't the worst thing that could happen to this country.

Heirs who are forced to sell a business to pay the tax on inheriting it can console themselves with the millions that they sold the property for. Each business that closes provides an opportunity for someone else to fill that niche. Appealing to sympathy toward the employees in those businesses is a red herring - a business that is worth millions will be bought by someone who will also employ people - but probably not the heirs.

What you fail to understand is that I have less sympathy for those who stand to inherit millions than I do those who don't. You're right, I don't own a pricey house, I don't own a multi-million dollar farm and my business is not worth millions. The upside of this is that my kids know that they'll need to make their own way in the world. I intend to leave them with skills and an ethos, not millions.

My sympathies are with them and the hundreds of millions of americans in the same boat. I do not agree with the merit of taxing their wages heavily so that the yuppie larvae won't have to pay taxes on their once-in-a-lifetime paycheck.
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and I respect your point of
view. I OTOH believe that anyone who works hard to become
successful should have the privilege of leaving the fruits
of his/her labor to his kids. I came to this country as a
student, started at the bottom, and now have above average
net worth. If my kids can't benefit from my lifetime of hard
work, frugality, then it is a dirty shame.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #69
74. Individuals should be the primary beneficiaries of their hard work.
Investing, inheriting and wage-earning should be on equal terms. In our society, you pay tax on the $6 you make flipping burgers, but not on the $6000 you make selling stock or the $600,000 you "make" by having an affluent parent.

I don't get it.
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. Not correct l_jeff.....one has to pay capital gains tax on every single $
even if most of the capital gain is usually due to inflation.
I had some capital gains in 2005 and 2006 and all my vacations
and purchases are on hold because of the tax bill.

OTOH if you make just minimum wage, your income taxes are negligible.
You do pay social security tax but supposedly you will get it back when
you retire. The taxes paid as "income tax" are gone for ever.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #60
76. How many businesses with a value
of more than $4 million are not corporations (and therefore immortal and not taxable).

Probably not many...

This is a straw man...
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
30. I remember watching Rep. Dick Armey (R-TX) "town hall" about this...
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 12:57 PM by KansDem
Sometime after the 1994 GOP takeover of Congress, I watched a "town hall" meeting with Rep. Dick Armey (R-TX}. Many issues were "discussed," including the "estate tax." A "concerned member" of the town-hall audience approached the microphone and complained that he stood to inherit some money some day and he didn't want to have to pay taxes on it. Rep. Armey agreed and said the GOP wanted to do away with the estate tax so "Average Joes" like him could keep what his parents/grandparents worked hard for.

Having just gone through a death in the family and subsequent inheritance, I knew the "death tax" didn't kick in until a specific amount, well beyond what I had inherited. I surmised from the comments of the "concerned member" (I can't remember specifically what he said) that his amount wasn't much different than mine, and that he wouldn't be taxed either. But Armey continued to rile on about the need to eliminate the estate tax, while I shook my head and told the TV screen, "No, it won't apply in his case! Why are you misleading the forum?" Although the estate tax would affect very few who listened, I imagine every member of the forum's audience, as well as those watching from home, went away from that meeting thinking the Government was going to take some of their inheritance.

This was before I realized that the Corporate Media was biased in favor of the neo-Con fascists, and that the GOP was using "town hall" meetings as a tool for "catapulting the propaganda." It took me a while to really understand what Armey and his ilk were doing, but realized what they weren't doing was engaging in debate based on facts.

edited to add a sentence.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Lies damned lies ... that's why I wanted an honest discussin of the
underlying issues and a number of possible solutions .... to the extent a solution might even be needed.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Back when Armey was around the state tax
was at $ 600,000 and that was low enough to hit regular Joes. It hit me when my aunt died.

Today it's less likely to hit average Joes, but then most of us want to roll back all of Bush's tax cuts so we'd be right back to $ 600,000 again.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Really?
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 03:57 PM by KansDem
What I inherited was less than 10% of that $600,000 figure.

I guess I was "below average." Way below average...
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
39. Estates should be taxed progressively to recipients.
That would encourage people to legally avoid taxes on their estates by giving to the poorest people they know, and giving in chunks that are small enough that they wouldn't boost the recipients into higher tax brackets.

They wouldn't have to be taxed at earned income rates -- there could be a separate PROGRESSIVE rate for inheritance, the same way there is for capital gains or for dividend income.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
41. I found this list of "myths" re: Estate tax- for countering talking points
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 02:14 PM by Capn Sunshine
Myth 1: Repealing the estate tax wouldn’t significantly worsen the deficit because the tax doesn’t raise much revenue.


Reality: Repealing the estate tax would add trillions of dollars to future deficits.
Permanently repealing the estate tax would cost roughly $1 trillion over the first ten years of extension, 2012-2021.
This cost includes $776 billion in lost revenue and $213 billion in increased interest payments on the national debt. (The official ten-year cost estimate is much lower: $369 billion. But that estimate is misleading because it covers an earlier ten-year period, 2007-2016, that captures only the cost of five years of extending repeal.)

Given the current fiscal situation — and, more importantly, the looming budgetary challenges posed by the baby boomers’ retirement — it would be extremely unwise (http://www.cbpp.org/4-12-05tax.htm) for the federal government to forgo such large revenues.


Myth 2: The estate tax forces estates to turn over half of their assets to the government.


Reality: The few estates that pay any estate tax at all generally pay less than 20 percent of the value of their estate in taxes.
Roughly 99 percent of estates pay no estate tax at all.
Among the few estates that do owe taxes, the "effective" tax rate — that is, the percentage of the estate that is paid in taxes — averaged about 19 percent in 2003, according to the IRS, far below the top estate tax rate of 50 percent that these estates faced.

Why is the effective tax rate so much lower than the top tax rate? Estate taxes are due only on the portion of an estate’s value that exceeds the exemption level, not on the entire estate. For example, at today’s $2.0 million exemption level, a $2.5 million estate would owe estate taxes on $500,000 at most. In addition, a large portion of the estate’s remaining value can be shielded from taxation through available deductions (for charitable bequests and state estate taxes paid, for instance).

It’s also worth noting that the effective estate tax rate will fall below 19 percent over the next few years, as the exemption level rises and the top estate tax rate declines.


Myth 3: Many small, family-owned farms and businesses must be liquidated to pay estate taxes.


Reality: The number of small, family-owned farms and businesses that owe any estate tax is small — and shrinking rapidly.
Despite oft-repeated claims that the estate tax has dire consequences for family farms and small businesses, there is in fact very little evidence that it has an outsize impact on these groups. Indeed, the American Farm Bureau Federation acknowledged to the New York Times that it could not cite a single example of a farm having to be sold to pay estate taxes.

Most recently, an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office confirms that exceedingly few family farms and small businesses face the estate tax (http://www.cbpp.org/7-11-05tax.htm and http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/65xx/doc6512/07-06-EstateTax.pdf). The CBO report found that if the current exemption level of $2.0 million had been in place in 2000, only 123 farm estates and only 135 family-owned businesses nationwide would have owed any estate tax. The number of taxable farm estates drops to 65 nationwide at a $3.5 million exemption level, the level that takes effect in 2009. The number of taxable family-owned business estates falls to just 94 under the $3.5 million exemption.

The CBO report also found that of the few farm and family business estates that would owe any estate tax, the vast majority would have sufficient liquid assets (such as bank accounts, stocks, bonds, and insurance) in the estate to pay the tax without having to touch the farm or business. For instance, of the 65 farm estates that would have owed tax under a $3.5 million exemption, just 13 would have faced liquidity constraints.

Analyses by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center also find that that few small businesses and farms are subject to the estate tax (http://www.cbpp.org/3-16-05tax.htm).


Myth 4: The estate tax is best characterized as the "death tax."


Reality: The estate tax would more appropriately be called an "inheritance tax," as it ultimately affects only the heirs of large estates. Today, the estates of only 1 out of every 200 people who die owe any estate tax whatsoever, because the first $2.0 million of the value of any estate ($4.0 million for a couple) is totally exempt from the tax. (http://www.cbpp.org/5-31-06tax2.htm)

Further, the exemption level is scheduled to rise to $3.5 million ($7 million for a couple) in 2009 under current law. At this level, only 3 of every 1,000 people who die will have an estate large enough to owe any tax.

That is why repealing the estate tax, which some people describe as "killing the death tax," has been described more aptly by others as the "Paris Hilton tax cut" after Paris Hilton, the heir to the Hilton hotel fortune.


Myth 5: The estate tax unfairly punishes success.


Reality: The estate tax affects only those most able to pay, and the funds it raises are used to support a range of programs that benefit the nation. The estate tax is the most progressive component of a tax code that overall is only modestly progressive (particularly when regressive state and local taxes are taken into account). The money it raises funds essential programs, from health care to education to defending the nation. If the estate tax were repealed, then other taxpayers — presumably those that are more numerous and less well-off than those paying the estate tax — would have to foot the bill for these programs, face cuts in the benefits and services provided, or bear the burden of a higher national debt.

Like other Americans, the very wealthy benefit from public investments in areas such as defense, education, health care, scientific research, environmental protection, and infrastructure, and they rely even more than others on the government’s protection of individual property rights (since they have so much more to protect). It seems fair that people who have prospered the most in this society help to preserve it for future generations through tax revenues that derive from their estates. Indeed, as President Theodore Roosevelt stated in 1906 that "the man of great wealth owes a particular obligation to the State because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."


Myth 6: Eliminating the estate tax would encourage people to save and thereby make more capital available for investment.


Reality: Eliminating the estate tax wouldn’t dramatically affect private saving, and it would greatly increase government dissaving (i.e., deficits). A recent Congressional Research Service report found that the estate tax’s net impact on private saving is unclear — it causes some people to save more and others to save less — and that its overall impact on national saving is likely quite small. "f the only objective were increased savings," the report concluded, "it would probably be more effective to simply keep the estate and gift tax and use the proceeds to reduce the national debt."

The reason is simple: while repealing the estate tax might lead some people to save more, it also would lead the government to borrow more to offset the lost revenue. Government borrowing "soaks up" capital that would otherwise be available for investment in the economy. In the case of repealing the estate tax, the added government borrowing would more than outweigh any added private saving, leaving the economy no better off, and quite possibly worse off.


Myth 7: The estate tax constitutes "double taxation" because it applies to assets that already have been taxed once as income.


Reality: Large estates have substantial amounts of "unrealized" capital gains that have never been taxed; the estate tax is the only means of taxing this income. Income taxes on the appreciation of assets, such as real estate or artwork, are only paid when the asset is sold. Therefore, the increase in the value of an asset is never subject to income tax if the asset is held until a person dies. These "unrealized" capital gains can make up a significant share of an estate’s total value (http://www.cbpp.org/6-17-05tax.htm), especially among large estates — the ones likely to owe estate tax.

One reason the estate tax was created was to serve as a backstop to the income tax, taxing income that was never taxed under the income tax. That is, the taxation of this income is essentially deferred and ultimately taxed for the first time through the estate tax.


Myth 8: If the estate tax is reformed and retained, the logical top tax rate would be 15 percent, the same as the capital gains rate.


Reality: To match the effective tax rate on capital gains, the top estate tax rate would have to be 35-40 percent, not 15 percent.
Since the estate tax serves in part to tax capital gains that have not been taxed, some people have proposed taxing estates at the capital gains rate of 15 percent. But the capital gains rate is typically applied to all capital gains income, whereas the estate tax is applied only to part of the estate (see Myth 2 above).

As a result, a 15 percent top estate tax rate would result in an effective tax rate on taxable estates of only 5 or 6 percent — about one-third of the capital gains rate. A top estate tax rate of 35-40 percent would be needed to generate an effective rate of 15 percent.

Moreover, from the standpoint of the effect on the deficit and the national debt, cutting the top estate tax rate to 15 percent rate would differ little from repealing the tax entirely. Tax Policy Center and Joint Committee on Taxation estimates indicate that with a 15 percent top rate and an exemption level of $2 million, the tax would lose nearly 70 percent of the revenue that would be lost under repeal. With a 15 percent rate and a $5 million exemption, the loss would grow to nearly 85 percent. (http://www.cbpp.org/5-31-06tax.htm)


Myth 9: The cost of complying with the estate tax is nearly equal to the total amount of revenue the tax raises.


Reality: The cost of estate tax compliance is modest, and is not much different than the cost of complying with other taxes.
Studies find that all of the various public and private costs associated with estate tax compliance (http://www.cbpp.org/6-14-05tax.htm) — including the IRS’s costs of administering the tax and the cost taxpayers bear in terms of estate planning and administering an estate when a person dies — are about 7 percent of estate tax revenues. These costs are consistent with the compliance costs for other taxes. For instance, administrative and compliance costs represent about 14.5 percent of revenue for the individual and corporate income taxes, 3-5 percent for value added taxes, and 2-5 percent for the sales tax.

Furthermore, the estate tax compliance burden will disappear for a growing number of families each year under current law, as the exemption level rises and fewer estates are subject to the estate tax.

Part of the confusion around the cost of estate tax compliance is that some estimates incorrectly include the cost of activities that would be necessary even in the absence of an estate tax — hiring estate executors and trustees, drafting provisions and documents for the disposition of property, and allocating bequests among family, for example. These activities account for about half of all costs sometimes associated with estate planning.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Paris Hilton Tax act. I like that.

credit: Center on Budget and Policy priorities
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. You know, this is a blueprint for a class war we can actually win
(Thanks for the links, by the way ...... good stuff there.)

I can imagine myself campaigning on a modest, almost sham increase in the top of the exemption level. Imagine some Dem saying "I am in favor of **eliminating** the inheritance tax on any and all estates up to a ceiling of $5 million. That means that I favor a total elimination of any taxes for fully 98.7% of the American people (or whatever the right percentage is)."

Who can possibly argue against such fact and framing? There is flatly NO populist argument one can make against that simple statement.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. That's the beauty of it
and if you include the "Paris Hilton" reference, it's game set match.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
64. It's pretty easy actually.
Since you've (the hypothetical candidate) just acknowledged the unfairness and injustice of the estate tax, all your opponent has to do is say that he would get rid of it altogether. And he will, and he'll be on the right side of the argument.

You'll be left sputtering, "well I'd get rid of *most* of it!" and "well, *some* estates should be taxed!" and "but an estate tax on $4.99 million estates is bad, but a tax on $5.01 million estates is good!"

Either embrace it or don't. The R's are unambiguous and committed to their ongoing class warfare, you don't combat that with ambiguity and triangulation.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
44. You can give your kids each $10,000 per year with no tax issues
in some form of Trust for their future. Enough to bring you under a mil.

My FIL has done that for us in the form of a stock gift from his portfolio when he had a cancer scare several years ago.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Gift tax exempted amount is 12,000 for 2006
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 02:59 PM by slackmaster
And it can be cash.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Thanks! I didn't know if went up - I suggested a Trust
because I don't know how old the little Sparkles are.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. My OP was much more broad than my own case
I'm already familiar with gifting, having recieved a few over the years. None of the little Sparklies are in line to get any gifts any time soon.

The very first Bill Cosby Show had a great line I'll never forget ..... and live by even today ...... One of the kids (the youngest daughter, as I recall) on the show asked Dr. Huxtable (Cosby): "Daddy, are we rich?" Cosby, with perfect timing, replied: "Your mother and I are rich. *You* ..... have nothing."

Our kids can work (quite) a while longer before they get to pick our bones. We're too young to start giving it away. :)
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #44
61. Not easily done if your estate is in the form of a expensice home or
business. It involves setting up of complicated trusts,
attorney fees, paper work galore. If your estate is in
the form of stocks/bonds/CD's then the $11,000 can be
transferred to each kid in 2006.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Not hard at all
In the case of an expensive house, a reverse mortgage will do the trick. For that matter, a home equity loan with the proceeds placed in an interest bearing account would also.

The biggest reason that people don't gift $10,000 to their kids each year is disinclination.
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. People consider home as their castle, and are probably unwilling to
reverse mortgage it for the irrational fear of losing it.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
47. Would ending the estate tax increase all capital gains taxes?
This is a serious question I have asked several people so far and no one seems to be able to answer it. Is the repeal of estate taxes a hidden capital gains tax increase?

Hardly anyone pays estate taxes. You have to have over $2 million to begin with ($4 million for a married couple) to even have to file an estate tax return. Something like 99.74% of Americans will never have to worry about it. So cutting estate taxes is a break for the wealthy, pure and simple.

But I have read that cutting the estate tax altogether would cost over $1 Trillion over the first 10 years. So, how will the government make up for those lost revenues?

I am not sure about this, but I think it will come from an increase in capital gains taxes that will mainly impact the non-wealthy. Perhaps some CPAs out there might want to chime in on this and straighten me out if I am wrong.

I know, for instance, that when someone dies there is a stepped up basis for capital gains purposes under existing federal tax law. For instance, if someone buys a house for $100,000 and then dies 20 years later with the house worth $1,000,000, and the beneficiaries of the estate sell the house for $1,000,000, there would be no capital gains tax paid whatsoever because the tax basis for the home would be its market value on the date of death.

But if the federal estate tax is eliminated completely, wouldn't the stepped up basis for capital gains taxes also be eliminated, thereby forcing the heirs to use the original purchase price as the tax basis? (Note also that the heirs would not be entitled to any exemption from taxes as an individual would if they lived there for 15+ years or was over 55 years old since it was not the heirs' residence.)

If that is the case then elimination of the federal estate tax would be a stealth increase in capital gains taxes for over 99% of Americans. Someone please fill me in if my understanding is incorrect.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. I think Capn Sunshine's Post # 41, above, addresses this
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
52. My tax professor said that most of the families subject to the estate tax
dodge most of it and the government ends up collecting little taxes. He doesn't think it should be advocated for increased tax revenue...only to encourage philanthropy by the richest among us.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Public will and serious tax laws/enforcement coujld change that in
a heartbeat.

See post 42 ... just a few posts above.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
56. Read also here
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mortlefaucheur Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
62. No. I Wouldn't Hear Of It!
Thanks for the sources...
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
66. im not sure I follow, the exemption is $2million ($4million for couples)
You say you are worth $1million. You would not be taxed by the estate tax. So what am I missing?
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
72. It is not really a tax on the deceased's estate...
First it is income... unearned income

Second anyone with that type of money have tax advisors to make sure they don't pay one cent more than they can get away with while alive AND pass as much of it as they can untaxed while alive to those they wish to benefit.

Third the tax rate only applies to the amount above the exemption... try figuring what the actual tax rate on the whole amount. Like if it is $600,001 and if the rate on over $600,000 is 50% it would be .0000833

In regards to businesses, farms etc... if children are partners or have some share in the business that part would not be included in the inheritance tax. My father during his time involved with farmers in the county never in his almost 40 years knew of farm family having to sell the farm because the taxes were too high.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
73. People don't have a clue that they aren't even effected by the tax
Right now I'm interning for a senator. Today our phones rang off the hook with people asking the senator to vote to repeal the "death tax" because they didn't want to have to pay it. The efforts were organized phone banking by some group that connected people to their senator's office and told them what to say. I knew that there was about zero chance that any of those people calling actually made enough money to be effected by the estate tax. Many people only know of it as the "death tax" also. I would always try to say something like, "So, you would like the senator to vote to repeal the estate tax" and many of them would say "No, I want the senator to vote to repeal the death tax." It was really sad because it is perhaps the best example of how the rich have gotten the middle and lower classes to do their bidding.

BTW, there was no similar organized phone banking in favor of keeping the estate tax (a big problem that our side has). I got one call all day in support of keeping the estate tax.

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anewdeal Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. Just because people are rich
doesn't mean they don't have the same rights as the rest of us.

The people who called in didn't want a government that feels entitled to the life's work of any of its citizens.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. They don't know it by any name other than the "death tax"
And one caller specifically said that "us hard working folks don't want to have to pay another tax". Some people are philisophically against the estate tax, but most are against it becuase of the right wing "death tax" PR campaign.
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