A personal observation on the economy

[serryjw]

I have been doing state petitions for 3 years. When I started they were paying a $1/signature. I am working on one that is paying $.75 per......found out yesterday that there are 3 other ones out there that are paying b/t $.50-.60 per and there is now a volume quota to get that much! It is 90 degrees in Denver at not easy to stay out very long. I would have to work 3X as hard for half the money. People are not as nice as 3 years ago. The are so pissed over what is happening more are not registered or are so disenfranchised that they have given up on the entire system.

[niyad]

1. but, but-fearless leader said the economy was booming!!!! you MUST

be mistaken!!

[MercutioATC]

2. Per-signature payments should be outlawed.

Wanna pay an hourly wage to have people walk door-to-door? Great. Per-signature payments encourage fraud.

[serryjw]

3. Not realistic

People are all over the state colecting signatures, so way to supervise them. Actually there is no chance of fraud. 100% of the signatures are confirmed by the state before they get on the ballot.The original initiative founder has a disk of all reg voters in CO BEFORE they pay you! BTW no one goes door to door. I work in front of my supermarket and on college campuses.

[MercutioATC]

4. Actually, ANY payment encourages fraud.

Best choice, have volunteers who care about the issue gather signatures.

A compromise would be to pay an hourly wage or a set wage (say, $50/day) to gather signatures.

Paying per signature encourages people to either falsify signatures or misrepresent the issue in order to garner signatures. How many times do we have to hear about people falsifying signatures or lying about the issue to get signatures before we deal with this?

[serryjw]

7. Are you sure you are a democrat?

WHY is * getting $390,000/year to destroy this country/world and you me to work for FREE? You try taking the abuse 6 hours a day in 10 degree and 90 degree weather. No one would do it. It's hard work and well work $15/hour that I get. Yes, you will have half truths...but you are signing to get it on the ballot, NOT VOTING. By the time everyone votes on an issue in November the newspapers and both sides have had so much exposure people know how to vote.

[MercutioATC]

8. Are you sure you read what I wrote?

Yes, I thing that people who really believe in the issue are the best people to get signatures.

Beyond that, I believe that paying a fair wage (my $50/day number is above minimum wage) is a marginally acceptable way of getting signatures.

Paying per signature encourages people who aren't motivated by the issue itself to do one of two things...falsify signatures or misrepresent the issue to gain signatures.


After all of this debate, I have to ask one question...If you care about the issue, why does payment make a difference? If you don't, isn't a per-signature payment scale EXTREMELY prone to abuse??

[serryjw]

9. Are you OUT of your F*CKEN mind?

Who the hell is going to pay my rent? WHY do people believe this is the ONLY part of the democratic process that should be done for FREE? I never said I agreed with the issues,totally irrelevant! I believe in the 1st amendment which is much more important.

[MercutioATC]

10. Where would pimps be if we outlawed prostitution?

Look, I'm not equating your apparent full-time job as a signature-garnerer with that of a pimp, but I feel both encourage an abuse of the system.

If you are, in fact, a "professional" signature-gatherer, do you accept petitions that you don't agree with? Have you ever (since you seem to be worried about paying your rent) been tempted to add a few signatures that didn't really exist? Have you ever "sold" an issue to somebody using even the slightest misrepresentation to get that signature?

If not, I applaud you.

Now, can you honestly say that there's not a HUGE potential to do this when people are paid per signature?

[serryjw]

12. You are missing the point

All politics/issues have 2 sides. Have you ever heard Congress in sessions? They are the biggest whores in the country. Of Course, I 'sell it'. WHY is 'selling' it, 'misrepresenting it? It's an opinion. Get over it. I work on issues I agree with or I'm on the fence. I have spent 20 years in sales and a life time in politics..what would you like me to do?

NO I have NEVER added a signature It 's a FELONY , I believe in the process and why would I whore myself out for $.75? Hard to believe, I have even registered Republicans to vote! WHY? Because I believe in Democracy. In our form of government they have a constitutional right to be wrong!

The good I have done in the last 3 years being out there as an activist is unmeasurable. I have registered hundred to vote & shared information on National issues with thousands. I'm am known all over Denver as the Petition Lady.
Have you ever (since you seem to be worried about paying your rent) Are you independently wealthy? Do you work for a LIVING? What a arrogant thing to say.

[MercutioATC]

33. I'm not attacking you, just questioning the wisdom of paying people

to get signatures.

I believe there's too great a potential for abuse. You feel differently...that's O.K.

[paulk]

5. another indicator of how bad the economy is here in Denver

it's in the toilet.

I know some store owners who had their worst month (April) in 18 years. We had one of our worst - and May was little better.

Things are really bad.

Really, really bad, and when I see articles like I did the other day where Karl Rove wants to run the elections this November on how great the economy is doing.... it just shows how completely out of touch with reality these morons are.

[BigYawn]

11. At the risk of generalizing, things are getting worse in bigger cities,

but economy is humming nicely in suburbs and smaller towns.

[Yupster]

13. I live in the oilpatch

We're screaming for workers here. Every business has had their best workers leave them for oil companies so we need everyone from teachers to park department workers.

[paulk]

17. I'm sure there's some truth in that

I have some friends out in California's "inland empire" who just turned a 200k profit on their house in less than 4 years. Things seem to be really booming there. I also have relatives in upstate NY, a rural area - who report that the local economy there is doing poorly. So it depends on where you are, I suppose.

Among the people I know, both my circle of friends and business acquaintances, the great majority are worse off now than they were 6 years ago. There are a few that are much, much better off. Their gains probably make up for the losses of everyone else. A fairly good representation of the Bush economy, actually. They also had money to start with - another good representation of the Bush economy.

[serryjw]

18. Not sure that's true

While petitioning in Denver, I met a young couple that just bought a house for $750,000 which was 1100 sq feet. IF you work there you have no choice. I grew up in LA. People there have always lived on monthly payments and the hell with the future. How do you pay a mortgage on $750,000 when you make $160,000? They live to 'trade up' and there is no equity in the home just paper profits. The little sucker is going to bust real soon...

[paulk]

19. the overvalued Denver real estate market

is a big part of the reason that the economy here is so bad. It's all based on speculation, not the real local economy.

People don't have any money left over for anything but necessities once they get done paying their mortgage. Or rent - because the same thing is happening there - speculators are buying up rental properties and having to charge rents that are not in touch with the real economy. Same thing is happening in the commercial market. Sooner or later there has to be a correction - it's already happening - Denver is in the top 5 nationally for foreclosures. Denver seems to have fallen once more into it's boom and bust cycle.

A lot of people are going to lose their homes and a lot of small businesses are going to go under.

[serryjw]

20. Paul That's why I'm working

on the Denver affordable housing petition. We have to slow down the growth. It's just not sustainable. Where is the water coming from? When was the last time someone built a 3 bedroom apt?

[primative1]

21. Curious ...

Is Denvers boom also a McMansion only affair?

[serryjw]

22. Lots of tear downs

to build McMansions. People are complaining. They loved the old home and with all our energy problems it is a sin to build 5000 sq feet.Building HIGH end condo's, country club communities.

[primative1]

24. Agree

Here locally, a building moratorium was actually put in place citing the absolute lack of affordable housing. Small miracle in this day and age.

[serryjw]

28. Boulder?

n/t

[primative1]

30. Sure we have all kinds ...

Would you like to see our selection of 100 pounders or perhaps you would be more interested in our MOB collection? lol
Not even close, east coast (MA). Thats why I was trying to get perspective. I only believe what I see (or hear from reliable sources) :)

[paulk]

23. I wouldn't call it that

In Denver itself, it seems to be condos and "lofts".

There's been a big push to get younger people to move into the city - to "revitalize" it. Of course, once this "young people" start families, they are heading for the 'burbs, 'cause the public schools suck. This isn't completely true, of course, there are some areas where people are still moving to, but downtown it is, imho.

The mcmansion thing is happening more in the suburbs - all up and down the front range (where they are building on some of the best farmland in the country).

[primative1]

self delete

.

[primative1]

26. Must be a nationwide blight

My view is from the suburbs so what I see are the McMansions ... Its impossible for me to imagine what people would want with these things, probably mirroring the SUV ego trips but they have virtualy wiped out any of what used to be natural wonder. Sad times

[paulk]

25. bring your petition by the store

I'll sign it.

Where is the water going to come from? That really is the question, isn't it? Our city council and mayor's office seem to be completely in the thrall of the real estate and development community.

[serryjw]

27. Which store?

Do you work at King Soopers?

[paulk]

29. check pm n/t

[joeprogressive]

6. You mean, you can't stick GDP in your gas tank or put it on your table.

They ignore important indicators such as personal savings rates have gone negative and foreclosures are at record highs. Combine this with rising interest rates and inflation and we are in deep doo doo. The GDP is only artificially high b/c consumer spending is up (mostly on gas)

[The Anti-Neo Con]

14. I know it's bad around where I live.

10 years ago you wouldn't see many young, able-bodied guys out loitering around during the daytime hours.

Now, you see them out like that a lot during business hours. My guess is that they can't find a job, since they don't look like they're just goofing off or having fun while loitering around.

[area51]

15. Welcome to DU, The Anti-Neo Con. (n/t)

[primative1]

16. The economy?

I have some nice vacation photos I took while in Jamaica recently. I was able to capture the essence of glittering hotels and villas atop the hills overlooking the squalid rusted tin roofed shacks where the mass populace reside.
Not much different than what we see here. Your opinion of the panorama depends on where you view it from.

[Greyhound]

31. I wish you would post them, for that is our future.

That, in fact, is the future planned for the world.

[Theres-a]

32. Right on the money

People don't want to believe it,but they won't stop until the US is 3rd world.The healthcare situation should clue people in.And the aftermath of Katrina is another giveaway.Honestly,in our lifetime,we will see what has been going on over there all along.

[radfringe]

34. about that economy

the problem is that even though the "numbers" indicate a "booming economy" - it ain't trickling down to us peons..

the numbers in of themselves are suspect because of changes in how the reporting is being done. Many suspect there's fuzzy math and cooking going on.

Imagine the economy is a huge funnel. Money is being poured into it. The theory is that some of it will "trickle" out of the bottom and into our pockets. The problem is that the funnel has a cork in it. No trickle, no drips, no leaks.

What is trickling down is the cost of things like gas, heating fuel and other related items. This means less disposable income and that's why we don't see the booming economy.

Most people don't know what GDP stands for, what it means and how it effects the economy. It's like me saying "Gee the ABC is at 70%" - if you don't know what ABC means - then 70% means nothing

[primative1]

35. I used to know what GDP meant ...

But with all this intermingling of US companies with multiple offshore interests and operations, I have no idea what portion of it, if any, has any interest to us domestics.
Are companies even required to break that data out into seperate categories?

[primative1]

36. To put it more clearly ...

If my wifes company up the street increases production of widgets that they make in Mexico and sell in Brazil, does the GDP go up and if so why?

[radfringe]

38. ummmm....errrrrr......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

A region's gross domestic product, or GDP, is one of several measures of the size of its economy. The GDP is defined as the market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period of time. Until the 1980s the term GNP or gross national product was used. The two terms GDP and GNP are almost identical. The most common approach to measuring and understanding GDP is the expenditure method:

GDP = consumption + investment + government spending + (exports - imports) "Gross" means depreciation of capital stock included. Without depreciation, with net investment instead of gross investment, it is the Net domestic product. Consumption and investment in this equation are the expenditure on final goods and services. The exports minus imports part of the equation (often called net exports) then adjusts this by subtracting the part of this expenditure not produced domestically (the imports), and adding back in domestic production not consumed at home (the exports).

-------------------
as far as your specific question goes - I don't know. My guess would be that because the product is produced in Mexico and exported to Brazil that it would effect Mexico and Brazil's GDP - not ours. You might want to post that question in the Stock Market Thread on the Breaking News page on Monday.

[paulk]

37. the trickle down, supply side nonsense didn't work

under Reagan/Bush 1 and it's not going to work now. I can't believe run of the mill republican voters fall for this garbage, especially when it is directly hurting them financially.

At least both Reagan and Bush raised taxes at some point to stop a complete crash and burn - the Dimwit son hasn't got the brains.


The last 6 years remind me so much of the Reagan/Bush years - one step forward, two steps back.