I'm outing myself: ***I have an 08 Favorite***

[Stinky The Clown]

I have a favorite potential candidate for the 08 primaries. And if you know me in person, or if you know me personally in my Stinky the Clown DU personna, you would know who that favorite is.

I expect the same is true for many others who post here or who simply lurk and read.

But I choose not to trumpet that favorite. In fact, other than, pehaps, a stray post here or there, I don't think you'll be able to do serious research on my body of posts and learn who that favorite is.

For good reason. I believe that advocating now for an 08 candidate is counterproductive.

For some who read your comments, the whole notion of 08 advocacy now is tedious if not downright annoying. One need only read reaction to advocacy posts to know that.

The affect of such advocacy on the advocates of other 08 potentials is worse. It simply hardens them against your choice. And that's not good. At some point we will **all** have to come together under a common flag.

But even more than that, at least for me, is one simple truism. Your advocacy causes anyone reading what you have to say to filter it. The filter is your 08 candidate and *that* person's stance, the (often wrong) 'common wisdom' surrounding your candidate, and the preexisting prejudices for or against your candidate.

I dare say that most of the 'advocates' I see posting here on DU are sincere in their posts. Sincere in their own choices of what to say. I don't think they're saying whatever it is they say simply to further the chances of their candidate. Or are they?

The power to persuade is rooted in both the message and the messenger. George Bush is near-totally incapable of persuading me to any of his views. Maybe that's a bad example, because I can't get past the messenger to ever consider the message. But you get my point, I'm sure.

None of this is to say that posts about some 08 potential or another saying this or that are unwelcome. They're not. Quite the contrary. Such posts are enormously valuable in keeping up with the furtherance of our side's fortunes. If my current choice is not the eventual winner in 08, then I want to be as deeply knowlegable about the person I **will** be supporting in 08 (**your** choice *now*) as those who were on board from the start.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that we lower the volume a bit and avoid the swarm posts. And thicken our skins just a bit. For someone to find fault in what your guy has said on a specific subject is not in any way, shape, or form a rejection. It is a disagreement on a certain point. Except when those criticisms are levelled by the known advocate for some other guy. You see? By virtue of your well known advocacy, your otherwise reasoned disagreement on a specific point is ignored in favor of some percieved (and maybe unjustified) prejudice against the person with whom you disagree. Your views are filtered and then discounted. You lose and the argument on the merits loses.

This thread will either catch fire or sink like a stone. But I hope it hangs in there long enough to be read and considered.

Comments are welcome, but unnecessary. Flames against me will be ignored and sit unengaged.

[Oversea Visitor]

1. I got one too

But mine dont count haha.

I like Boxer

Haha float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

[primative1]

2. I'm torn on this topic....

On one hand I feel we need to stay focused on 06 to take our country back and on the other hand as we watch events unfold it is also becoming clear that we need to stay focused on taking our party back first. Looking to me like the party insiders aint representing any better than those other clowns

[ChiciB1]

33. Throwing Water On This Fire... I Personally Think 2006 Should BE

our focus, but I DOUBT we'll win! Sorry, all our activism seems to be through the Internet.

Sure, the polls look bad but without election reform, we're sunk. I can see fraud again and then there's gerrymandering. I'll vote in 2006, but I won't vote for who I really want. I don't think I have much of a choice.

I would LOVE to see Bill Nelson go, but hey there isn't ANY OTHER CHOICE! I really like Brain Moore, posted something today to get an opinion, went straight down the tube! A vote for Moore is almost like voting for my current respresentative and I swear I CAN'T take that witch any longer. I'll have to hold my nose because of it.

So, we elect the same people for the most part and in case you've been away for a long time, we have achieved very very very little with what we got right now.

BOHICA!

[skyblue]

3. Well Said!

[blondeatlast]

4. There's plenty of life to be lived after November, I'm certain.

But I find it increasingly hard to think of anything past then.

I don't need no stinkin' "ignore" or "Hide Threads" button.

The only times I respond to a '08 candidate post is when it's so clearly and easily deconstructed RW talking point, as I just did this AM.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. Which thread was that?

[blondeatlast]

26. Hillary owns stock in Wal-Mart, chapter 1,357.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2632930&mesg_id=2633226

[Stinky The Clown]

31. Dems Eat Dems For Lunch

I don't have much of an appetite. :)

[blondeatlast]

25. Edit--replied to wrong post. nt

[TAPat]

5. Agreed -

I have my favorite too & I talk about it every day... at home. Gives me some hope I guess.
As for sinking like a stone - I hope not. I, for one, truly appreciate your posts.
You could call me a Stinky Fan! :patriot:

[acmejack]

6. Pretty thoughtful post for an old squid!

Words of wisdom which will therefore be ignored by those who should be listening, gee, sounds just like the kids...

[Stinky The Clown]

7. mi casa (many years ago)

[acmejack]

29. Wooden ships and Iron men!

[Stinky The Clown]

32. :::::cough::::: Ah ye ::::::wheeeeeze:::::: Ah yes

Iron Men and Wooden Ships

These days its more like a pontoon boat on the lake :)

[welshTerrier2]

8. Joe Blow is a jerk

wanna watch all the "advocates" pile onto a thread ... insults are by far the best way ... but, what happens when you insult the candidate's position on an issue but you don't mention the candidate at all? the "audience" of those who reply to your post is entirely different ...

what message does this send? it says that the "advocates" are more passionate about the candidate than the issues the candidate advocates ... not much of an endorsement there ...

and then there's the shameful talking parrot syndrome ... good old Joe Blow thinks we should be doing "x" on issue "y" ... his advocates, usually only in threads that mention Joe while discussing issue "y", also endorse position "x" ... they are passionately supportive of Joe's position ... well, passionately supportive until Joe changes his mind and switches over to position "z" on issue "y" ... and the next day, the advocates are now passionate about position "z" ... i call it talking parrot syndrome ...

and i have reflected on the idea that perhaps my view of this is too harsh ... perhaps some people come to a candidate based on faith in the individual; i'm not structured that way ... i have MY views on the issue and if a candidate i support disagrees with me, the last thing i would do is assume they must be right because they "know more" or they're so much more experienced ... i feel obligated to call them as i see them ... i can't get behind what i see as blind following ... maybe that's wrong in some way but i just can't get there from here and frankly i can't respect that sort of loyalty without criticism ...

finally, fwiw, i do NOT have a "hidden favorite" for '08 ... i am sitting on the edge between being a Democrat or looking elsewhere for a party ... i will always support progressive Democrats as a first choice; at the presidential level, however, i do NOT believe the Democratic Party or those likely to lead it have aligned themselves with my set of beliefs ... this is not to say i wouldn't vote for the '08 Dem candidate ... it's to say i'm not hearing my issues raised and i don't feel the current crop represents me ... i won't elaborate on the details in this thread ... how i'll address that with my '08 vote remains to be seen ...

[Stinky The Clown]

9. Cherry picking points from your post .......

The notion of picking a candidate because that candidate most closely matches your views versus holding views because your candidate holds them .... that's a huge issue. One is intellectually honest. Indeed, it is the way things should be.

Holding a view because your candidate holds it is also acceptable - if you came to hold that view based on the merits of your candidate's argument for it.

But the third opiton .... holding view 'x' today and then 'y' tomorrow just because your candidate sez so .... that's the cult of personality. Its transparent and its .... well ... cultish. Join the Millie Vanillie fan club and send me a post card.

[welshTerrier2]

10. a minor point ...

your second paragraph said: "Holding a view because your candidate holds it is also acceptable - if you came to hold that view based on the merits of your candidate's argument for it."

i would just point out that i think the argument here is self-contradicting ... in the first phrase, the premise is that you hold a view "because your candidate holds it" ... in the second phrase, however, you stated that your reason for holding that view was "based on the merits" ... the fact that your candidate espoused those merits is secondary ... your statement was that you chose the view based on the merits; not because your candidate holds the view ...

of course, this is all a bit nit-picky ... i'm confident we hold similar views on the issues you raised in the OP ... btw, i've posted very similar themes to your OP numerous times and i will say that many of the "advocates" have been very responsive to the idea ... i've noticed far more posts where the "advocates" differentiate their views from their candidates ... at least to me, this makes their posts much more credible, interesting and persuasive ...

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Okay ... I'll pick the nits from your nits :)

What's meant to be assumed by that statement is that one heard the argument from 'your guy' and accepted it based on its merits. It wasn't intended to specifically exclude the possibility of hearing the argument elsewhere.

[blm]

13. I say love your guy using FACTS - and don't trash another Dem with opinion

when there is no fact to back you up.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. Can I get an 'Amen!'?

Hallelujah!

[blm]

15. Will you take an Amen from an atheist? ;)

.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. An 'Amen' or a 'Huzzah' .......

... or the more muted 'Cheers'.

:)

[Catchawave]

16. I never ignore your posts Husb2 !

You're one of the few I "read" faithfully :hi:

I have an '08 favorite too, which is no secret, but I do try and use the "golden rule" or simply not reply to other candidate threads, unless I can say something nice, or question a claim with fact supported blabby fingers :D

What's funny, all my '06 candidate threads drop like a rock here. I just started one ... Bush coming to the Beach....to support Thelma Drake, cloistered in a mansion, special invite only to spend $5000 to attend......how American :banghead:

This is HUGH!!!1!!....is he planning to go to all 435 districts between now and November? Cheney came here in March to fill her war chest too.

She did accept Abramoff tainted donations in '04 via Delay....and on MoveOn's hit list for t.v. ad fundraising :evilgrin:

Oh well, I'll probably have to kick my thread a coupla more times, it's the nature of the GD beast :)

[snowbear]

18. Welp...

I dunno who H2Spark's favorite is.. but I do know who Catawave's favorite is! Heh heh.

I've decided to be "undecided" until I know who's running for sure..

I'll have a favorite by summer 2007.. If I pick one this early out, with my luck, they won't even wind up running..

[Stinky The Clown]

20. "I've decided to be "undecided" until ........ "

That's just not fair! How dare you exercise reason and contemplative thought? What are you ... some kinda Democrat????

I love your kitties! :)

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Catcha, my dear .......

First, thanks for the kind words ..... :hi:

Next ..... if you have a favorite and you've been advocating for her/him, you can ignore this post ....... cuz you obviously are not who I'm talking about. You're either a bad advocate or a polite one .... cuz I can't guess who your 'my guy' is.

I suspect you're the latter and not the former.

[janx]

21. This has been going on since right after the election of

2004!

No kidding. So I appreciate your sentiments. But political junkies are very curious as to how the next primary is going to shape up, I imagine. Some folks (like me) just can't wait until November to snoop around and make predictions. ;-)

We don't even know who is running yet, actually. :rofl:

[Stinky The Clown]

22. Its funny ......

.... when I do decide to visit 'my guy' hell, I see all this strained attempt at politeness. The advocates for A would eat the still-warm livers of the advocates for B.

Far better, in my view, to either stay styeadfastly neutral appearing and work for the betterment of 'the cause' than to try to persuade others for what is essentially a hope.

And then there is the subset of this ..... the supporters of 04 candidates who, for whatever reason, have decided they will *not* be among the 08 hopefuls. God help the person who says one word that could even remotely be considered critical of their 'my guy'. I think Skinner should pass out small doses of AneurysmAway with each star the grovelbot awards. They choose not to endorse anyone they didn't support then, but refuse to remain neutral.

I can't wait for the **serious** primary season! :sarcasm:

edit to add "-warm" to the first line

[janx]

24. If it's even half as bad as the last one,

I'll need serious medication.

Another drag about the primaries around here is the freeper contingent. They creep in and pretend to be "supporters" of one candidate or another, and the more gullible of us believe them!

Most people who post here are kind, intelligent human beings. I've learned the hard way that each person is responsible for his/her own behavior, regardless of political persuasion. We had a terrible time last primary because there was a tendency to categorize people as decent or indecent based upon their political leanings or which "group" they belonged to. That was wrong.

[killerbush]

23. Sparkly's favorite, Joe Lieberman

I know you and him will make a great team.

[Stinky The Clown]

27. You tell 'er that to her face!

She'll plie yer eyes out, Hoss.



Or whateverthehell they call that kick thing she teachs to dance students and soccer goalies.

Her legs are lethal weapons ... so watchyer azz. :)

[Sparkly]

28. WHAT?!?

You best be joking, killerbush.... :spank:

[killerbush]

35. Twas just a little joke

[Renew Deal]

30. I like the 2008 talk

I think it lets us think about the future. There is a lot of hope for 2008. It's a good way to daydream.

[Sparkly]

34. I like those daydreams, too.

And of course, I'll never tell who my own favorite is.

(Avatar? What avatar?)