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leyton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:28 PM
Original message
On Lieberman and what it is to be a Democrat
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 09:56 PM by leyton
I'm disgusted by the number of people that have posted gleeful things about how Lieberman has finally dropped out and maybe he'll join the GOP.

Maybe this isn't true for some of you but it is for me.

I don't pick a party and adopt its positions. If I did that, I'd be a Republican, because they're the ones winning elections. Instead, I have my positions, informed by my life, my religion, those around me, etc. It so happens that I am a fiscal conservative, an environmentalist, I don't completely oppose the war in Iraq, I'm pro-life, etc.

Now, of those issues, I fall pretty much in the Democratic party, especially with the first two. Which is why I post at this board and why I'm involved in local Democratic politics. But I'm not going to apologize for my pro-life stance or my position on the war or any other beliefs I have that might echo the GOP's platform, because I owe the Democratic party nothing. I have my beliefs, and I'm casting my vote for Democrats because of that. Not the other way around.

So I would hope that most people would maybe understand if Joe Lieberman is the same way. He's a champion of many liberal causes and some conservative as well; he also votes for Tom Daschle for Senate Majority Leader and I'm sure he will endorse the Democratic nominee this summer. He shouldn't have to apologize if he doesn't fit squarely into the Democratic party, and he shouldn't be expected to go join the GOP.

Joe Lieberman is what he is, and, by the way, he happens to be a Democrat.

(Edit: No, I don't support Lieberman for the nomination. He wasn't even one of my top picks. But not every Democrat is presidential material.)
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well said, my friend . . . well said
Frankly, I'm disgusted by all the DU'ers who seek to define the Democratic Party by the process of exclusion.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent post
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well said
Anyone who loves our country is welcomed in my Party.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. A gracious and honorable man, no doubt.
But those virtues are not necessarilly what Democrats are looking for in their nominee this year. Honestly, Joe didn't serve us well in 2000 when he didn't fight tougher in the campaign and the ensuing FL fiasco. If he had, he might have been running for President unchallenged in 2008.

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leyton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Oh, I agree.
I don't support Lieberman for President and I don't think he would make a good candidate or an especially good President compared to the other contenders. But he gets a lot of crap for what he believes in.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. Lieberman has been a strong advocate for many....
core causes of the Democratic party. However, he abandoned us on the war in Iraq and to this day is supporting * on this even though the mission has been a failure and over 500 American lives are gone forever. This is why so many of us here do not want him as our nomminee. He abandoned us when we needed him the most.

That's the way things go.
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. He "abandoned us" on Iraq?
Sorry, but Lieberman remained true to the finest traditions of the Democratic Party. Frankling Roosevelt, Harry Truman, JFK and LBJ all would have taken a hard line towards Iraq. Bill Clinton was on Lieberman's side.

Sorry, but the doves don't have a monopoly over the Democratic Party. I'm sure many wish it were than way, but are party would be far weaker for it. Remember 1972?
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. So, objecting to illegal, immoral, unjustified wars is "dovish"?
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 09:51 PM by Terwilliger
Is that coming from a warmonger?
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. No -- believing the removal of a genocidal tyrant
who (1) invaded two neigboring countries, (2) slaughtered thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians, (3) tried to assassinate a U.S. president and (4) repeatedly violated the terms of the cease fire was somehow illegal, immoral and unjustified is dovish, and many other things (although they can't be printed here).

And hey, if being willing to confront tyranny around the world makes be a warmonger, I'll wear that title proudly. After all, FDR, Truman, JFK and LBJ were called warmongers too. I'm in good company.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. We've never confronted tyranny, dolstein
If we've ever done anything, we've decided that financial and political interests were served in our military committments abroad.

Saddam was a bad man...we know....we made him...we created him...we gave him power...we gave him authority...we knew EXACTLY what this thug murdering dictator was going to do from the day he camme into power, and lets call a spade a spade...Saddam Hussein was OUR dictator...as long as he did what we said, he'd be fine. He didn't, and all of the sudden he's a "tyrant"

The US is the tyrant.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I don't know why he is the bogeyman on the war
A lot of Democrats backed the war, a majority of the people backed the war (at the time), and the war frankly has not been an issue in the campaign at this point.

If anything, Joe deserves props for never wavering in his support. I like Kerry and Edwards, but I still can't fully explain their positions.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. yep...and
a majority of the people backed the war

I'm sure they backed slavery back in the day. Did that make it ok?
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. Dude, I was against the war
But I'm not about to throw half the Party under the bus and give the Republicans a filibuster-proof majority in Congress and the White House for the next twenty years because of it.

The big thing to remember is the War happened. We can't undo it now. We have hundreds of thousands of soldiers in harm's way and millions of people in a mess. We have to figure out a way out of it.

And purging every person who created the mess is going to leave us with me, you, and Dennis Kucinich to clean it up. Personally, I'm not up to the task.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. amen
to that
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MarkTwain Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Absolutely....
... all of these tears over Lieberman are strange, to say the least.

If we have not learned, after what Karl, Dick, and George did to us in 2000, that politics on this level is war at its absolute worst, then we have not only failed to learn, appreciate, and yes respect, what this game is all about, but we deserve to lose.

At this pitiful point in the body politic, with such an abject failure, evil, and plainly rotten human being in the Oval Office who stole the office out of the hands of our party (as co-led by Lieberman at the time, btw) it is time to stop being "nice," "respectful," and a "gentleman." They are neither admirable nor winning qualities in today's political arena. You may not like that, but it's the truth. And until you all take off your rose colored glasses, cease chanting sweetness and light and wake up to the realities of the enemy with whom we are dealing, you will lose.

Lieberman, even tonight, was chanting the mantra of the Bush administration about "enemies who hate us," blah, blah, blah.

Five hundred plus DEAD young American men and women, Joe. Was it worth it? Have we gotten those "enemies," Joe with the bodies of those Five Hundred, huh?

He does not belong on our team, much less even near our locker room. He wears the jock of a Republican on so many issues and matters, inclusive of the cultural and religious, that it's deplorable that he would find any support in a party that has been so abused, so manipulated, and so demeaned by the GOP.

Good riddance.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. I like Lieberman
I wouldn't support him for Prez (he's too conservative for me), but he is a noble representative for our party in the Senate. I wish him all the best.
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Lieberman has said some very BAD things this campaign
and burned many bridges with the left.

BUT looking at his consession speech really should wake people up that he IS a Democrat, and I'm proud he is in this party. But I also understand why people are hurt by him because he did a lot of dirty and spiteful things early on especially in the debates.
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pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. I wish he had stayed in
Just as I support DK in large part because I think that the Democratic Party needs to hear what he is saying on issues that are important to me, I know that many support Lieberman because he insisted on talking about issues important to them. I think it is unfortunate to lose his voice in the national debate. There is such a clamor to get down to one candidate, like, yesterday, and to speak with one voice. But we are Democrats--we don't speak with one voice, and that is really our advantage if we aren't afraid to use it.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. Lieberman's speech is being shown again on CSpan.
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CabalBuster Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Lieberman gleefully went on Faux and badmouthed Democrats
He deserves no respect for stooping to that level. Joining the enemies of the Democratic party and trashing Democrats on Faux news is not excusable. He should've left a long time ago. If it were up to the Democratic base, he'll be expelled.
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leyton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. McCain does that...
and many of us here like him for it.

I don't know what specific criticisms Lieberman had of the party in recent months. But if they're legitimate, then he has every right to speak them. The Democratic party isn't perfect.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. I see...so what you're saying is, you're a pocketbook Democrat
as long as everything is ducky in your life, you support Democrats, but if NOT, then you're a Republican again

Interesting.
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. Maybe it's because some of us here remember this speech of Joe's?
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 09:58 PM by khephra
(Public speech, so I think there's no copyright)

Senator Joe Lieberman Attacks Clinton

September 3, 1998
Sen. Joe Lieberman (Democrat, Connecticut) today addressed his colleagues in the United States Senate with regard to President Clinton and the Independent Counsel's investigation.


Mr. President, I rise today to make a most difficult and distasteful statement, for me probably the most difficult statement I have made on this floor in my ten years in the Senate.

On August 17th, President Clinton testified before a grand jury convened by the Independent Counsel and then talked to the American people about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky, a former White House intern. He told us that the relationship was "not appropriate," that it was "wrong," and that it was "a critical lapse of judgement and a personal failure" on his part. In addition, after seven months of denying that he had engaged in a sexual relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, the President admitted that his "public comments. . . about this matter gave a false impression." He said, "I misled people."

My immediate reaction to this statement was deep disappointment and personal anger. I was disappointed because the President of the United States had just confessed to engaging in an extramarital affair with a young woman in his employ and to willfully deceiving the nation about his conduct. I was personally angry because President Clinton had by his disgraceful behavior jeopardized his Administration's historic record of accomplishment, much of which grew out of the principles and programs that he and I and many others had worked on together in the New Democratic movement. I was also angry because I was one of the many people who had said over the preceding seven months that if the President clearly and explicitly denies the allegations against him, then, of course, I believe him.

Since that Monday night, I have not commented on this matter publicly. I thought I had an obligation to consider the President's admissions more objectively, less personally, and to try to put them in a clearer perspective. And I felt I owed that much to President Clinton, for whom I have great affection and admiration, and who I truly believe has worked tirelessly to make life tangibly better in so many ways for so many Americans.

But the truth is, after much reflection, my feelings of disappointment and anger have not dissipated. Except now these feelings have gone beyond my personal dismay to a larger, graver sense of loss for our country, a reckoning of the damage that the President's conduct has done to the proud legacy of his presidency, and ultimately an accounting of the impact of his actions on our democracy and its moral foundations.

The implications for our country are so serious that I feel a responsibility to my constituents in Connecticut, as well as to my conscience, to voice my concerns forthrightly and publicly, and I can think of no more appropriate place to do so than the floor of this great body. I have chosen to speak particularly at this time, before the Independent Counsel files his report, because while we do not know enough to answer the question of whether there are legal consequences from the President's conduct, we do know enough to answer a separate and distinct set of questions about the moral consequences for our country.

I have come to this floor many times in the past to speak with my colleagues about my concerns, which are widely-held in this chamber and throughout the nation, that our society's standards are sinking, that our common moral code is deteriorating, and that our public life is coarsening. In doing so, I have specifically criticized leaders of the entertainment industry for the way they have used the enormous influence they wield to weaken our common values. And now because the President commands at least as much attention and exerts at least as much influence on our collective consciousness as any Hollywood celebrity or television show, it is hard to ignore the impact of the misconduct the President has admitted to on our children, our culture and our national character.

To begin with, I must respectfully disagree with the President's contention that his relationship with Monica Lewinsky and the way in which he misled us about it is "nobody's business but" his family's and that "even presidents have private lives," as he said Whether he or we as a people think it fair or not, the reality in 1998 is that a president's private life is public. Contemporary news media standards will have it no other way. Surely this President was given fair warning of that by the amount of time the news media has dedicated to investigating his personal life during the 1992 campaign and in the years since.

But there is more to this than modern media intrusiveness. The President is not just the elected leader of our country, he is, as presidential scholar Clinton Rossiter observed, "the one-man distillation of the American people," and "the personal embodiment and representative of their dignity and majesty," as President Taft once said. So when his personal conduct is embarrassing, it is so not just for him and his family. It is embarrassing for us all as Americans.

The President is also a role model, who, because of his prominence and the moral authority that emanates from his office, sets standards of behavior for the people he serves. His duty, as the Rev. Nathan Baxter of the National Cathedral here in Washington said in a recent sermon, is nothing less than the stewardship of our values. So no matter how much the President or others may wish to "compartmentalize" the different spheres of his life, the inescapable truth is that the President's private conduct can and often does have profound public consequences.

In this case, the President apparently had extramarital relations with an employee half his age, and did so in the workplace, in vicinity of the Oval Office. Such behavior is not just inappropriate. It is immoral. And it is harmful, for it sends a message of what is acceptable behavior to the larger American family, particularly to our children, which is as influential as the negative messages communicated by the entertainment culture. If you doubt that, just ask America's parents about the intimate and often unseemly sexual questions their young children have been asking and discussing since the President's relationship with Ms. Lewinsky became public seven months ago.

I have had many of those conversations in recent days, and from that I can conclude that many parents feel much as I do, that something very sad and sordid has happened in American life when I cannot watch the news on television with my ten-year-old daughter any more.

This is unfortunately familiar territory for Americas families in today's anything-goes culture, where sexual promiscuity is too often treated as just another lifestyle choice with little risk of adverse consequences. It is this mindset that has helped to threaten the stability and integrity of the family, which continues to be the most important unit of civilized society, the place where we raise our children and teach them to be responsible citizens, to develop and nurture their personal and moral faculties.

President Clinton is well aware of this threat and the broad public concern about it. He has used the bully pulpit over the course of his presidency to eloquently and effectively call for the renewal of our common values, particularly the principle of personal responsibility, and our common commitment to family. And he has spoken out admirably against sexual promiscuity among teenagers in clear terms of right and wrong, emphasizing the consequences involved.

All of which makes the President's misconduct so confusing and so damaging. The President's relationship with Miss Lewinsky not only contradicted the values he has publicly embraced over the past six years. It has compromised his moral authority at a time when Americans of every political persuasion agree that the decline of the family is one of the most pressing problems we as a nation are facing.

Nevertheless, I believe the President could have lessened the harm his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky has caused if he had acknowledged his mistake and spoken with candor about it to the American people shortly after it became public in January. But as we now know, he chose not to do this. His deception is particularly troubling because it was not just a reflexive and understandably human act of concealment to protect himself and his family from the "embarrassment of his own conduct," as he put it, when he was confronted with it in his deposition in the Paula Jones case, but rather the intentional and premeditated decision to do so.

In choosing this path, I fear that the President has undercut the efforts of millions of American parents who are naturally trying to instill in our children the value of honesty. As most any mother or father knows, kids have a singular ability to detect double standards. So we can safely assume that it will be that much more difficult to convince our sons and daughters of the importance of telling the truth when the most powerful man in the nation evades it. Many parents I have spoken with in Connecticut confirm this unfortunate consequence.

The President's intentional and consistent misstatements may also undercut the trust that the American people have in his word, which would have substantial ramifications for his presidency. Under the Constitution, as presidential scholar Richard Neustadt has noted, the President's ultimate source of authority, particularly his moral authority, is the power to persuade, to mobilize public opinion and build consensus behind a common agenda, and at this the President has been extraordinarily effective. But that power hinges on the President's support among the American people and their faith and confidence in his motivations, his agenda, and ultimately his personal integrity. As Teddy Roosevelt once explained, "My power vanishes into thin air the instant that my fellow citizens who are straight and honest cease to believe that I represent them and fight for what is straight and honest; that is all the strength I have."

Sadly, with his deception, President Clinton may have weakened the great power and strength of which President Roosevelt spoke. I know this is a concern that many of my colleagues share, that the President has hurt his credibility and therefore, perhaps, his chances of moving his agenda forward. But I believe that the harm the President's actions have caused extend beyond the political arena. I am afraid that the misconduct the President has admitted may be reinforcing one of the most destructive messages being delivered by our popular culture --namely that values are essentially fungible. And I am afraid that his misconduct may help to blur some of the most important bright lines of right and wrong left in our society.

I do not raise these concerns as self-righteous criticism. I know that the President is far from alone in the wrongdoing he has admitted. We as humans are all imperfect. We are all sinners. Many have betrayed a loved one, and most of us have told lies. Members of Congress have certainly been guilty of such behavior, as have some previous Presidents. We try to understand the profound complexity and difficulty of personal relationships, which gives us pause before passing judgement on them. We all fall short of the standards our best values set for us. Certainly I do.

But the President, by virtue of the office he sought and was elected to, has traditionally been held to a higher standard. This is as it should be, because the American president is not, as I quoted earlier, just the one-man distillation of the American people but the most powerful person in the world, and as such the consequences of misbehavior by a President, even private misbehavior, are much greater than that of a an average citizen, a CEO, or even a Senator. That is what I believe presidential scholar James Barber, in his book, The Presidential Character, was getting at when he wrote that the public demands "a sense of legitimacy from, and in, the Presidency. . . There is more to this than dignity, more than propriety. The President is expected to personify our betterness in an inspiring way, to express in what he does and is (not just what he says) a moral idealism which, in much of the public mind, is the very opposite of politics."

Just as the American people are demanding of their leaders, though, they are also fundamentally fair and forgiving, which is why I was so hopeful the President could begin to repair the damage done with his address to the nation on the 17th. But like so many others, I came away feeling that he for reasons that are thoroughly human had squandered a great opportunity that night. He failed to clearly articulate to the American people that he recognized how significant and consequential his wrongdoing was and how badly he felt about it. He also failed to show that he understood his behavior has diminished the office he holds and the country he serves, and that it is inconsistent with the mainstream American values that he has advanced as President. And he failed to acknowledge that while Mr. Starr, Ms. Lewinsky, Mrs. Tripp, and the news media have all contributed to the crisis we now face, his presidency would not be in peril if it had not been for the behavior he himself described as "wrong" and "inappropriate."

Because the conduct the President has admitted to was so serious and his assumption of responsibility on August 17th so inadequate, the last three weeks have been dominated by a cacophony of media and political voices calling for impeachment, or resignation, or censure, while a lesser chorus implores us to "move on" and get this matter behind us.

Appealing as the latter option may be to many people who are understandably weary of this crisis, the transgressions the President has admitted to are too consequential for us to walk away and leave the impression for our children and for our posterity that what President Clinton acknowledges he did within the White House is acceptable behavior for our nation's leader. On the contrary, as I have said at length today, it is wrong and unacceptable and should be followed by some measure of public rebuke and accountability. We in Congress --elected representatives of all the American people --are surely capable institutionally of expressing such disapproval through a resolution of reprimand or censure of the President for his misconduct, but it is premature to do so, as my colleagues of both parties seem to agree, until we have received the report of the Independent Counsel and the White House's response to it.

In the same way, it seems to me, talk of impeachment and resignation at this time is unjust and unwise. It is unjust because we do not know enough in fact and will not until the Independent Counsel reports and the White House responds to conclude whether we have crossed the high threshold our Constitution rightly sets for overturning the results of a popular election in our democracy and bringing on the national trauma of removing an incumbent President from office. For now, in fact, all we know for certain is what the President acknowledged on August 17th. The rest is rumor, speculation, or hearsay --much less than is required by Members of the House and Senate in the dispatch of the solemn responsibilities that the Constitution gives us in such circumstances.

I believe that talk of impeachment and resignation now is unwise because it ignores the reality that while the Independent Counsel proceeds with his investigation, the President is still our nation's leader, our Commander-in-Chief. Economic uncertainty and other problems here at home, as well as the fiscal and political crises in Russia and Asia and the growing threats posed by Iraq, North Korea, and worldwide terrorism, all demand the President's focused leadership. For that reason, while the legal process moves forward, I believe it is important that we provide the President with the time and space and support he needs to carry out his most important duties and protect our national interest and security.

That time and space may also give the President additional opportunities to accept personal responsibility for his behavior, to rebuild public trust in his leadership, to recommit himself to the values of opportunity, responsibility and community that brought him to office, and to act to heal the wounds to our national character.

In the meantime, as the debate on this matter proceeds, and as the investigation continues, we would all be advised to heed the wisdom of Abraham Lincoln's second annual address to Congress in 1862. With the nation at war with itself, Lincoln warned, "If there ever could be a proper time for mere catch arguments, that time is surely not now. In times like the present, men should utter nothing for which they would not willingly be responsible through time and eternity."

I believe we are at such a time again today. With so much at stake, we too must resist the impulse toward "catch arguments" and reflex reactions. Let us proceed in accordance with our nation's traditional moral compass, yes, but in a manner that is fair and at a pace that is deliberate and responsible. Let us as a nation honestly confront the damage that the President's actions over the last seven months have caused, but not to the exclusion of the good that his leadership has done over the past six years nor at the expense of our common interests as Americans. And let us be guided by the conscience of the Constitution, which calls on us to place the common good above any partisan or personal interest, as we now work together to resolve this serious challenge to our democracy. Thank you.


http://www.australianpolitics.com/usa/clinton/impeachment/lieberman.shtml
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Oh. my....where is your memory?
That very speech was what many people say saved Clinton. It was a toss-up if Liberman would support conviction on the impeachment. He did not. Read that speech and tell me that's not a speech of a thoughtful man. Clinton himself was said to be thannkful to Lieberman for that speech.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. What's wrong with the speech?
Clinton's behavior was immoral and embarrassing. And he should have been called on the carpet for it.

But he shouldn't have been impeached. And Lieberman did the right thing with that vote.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. ooo...blowjob...immoral
Hey! Illegal war! Lies! Death! "Ohhhhh, that's ok, because I'm against Saddam...so Bush is AOK, and I'm AOK and..."

:nuke:
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Exactly Ter
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 10:25 PM by khephra
Oh, and don't forget about those dangerous video games.

Funny how Joe was attacking the entertainment industry for violent games as recently as two weeks ago, but not one word was said on the first-person shooter put out by the Army as a recruiting tool. Maybe I'd have more respect if he had a consistent msg on violence. I guess it's ok when it's by the military (even as a game) but not as a form of entertainment.
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. Hey, Terr
Edited on Wed Feb-04-04 12:16 AM by JasonBerry
If it was YOUR boss, with the power he has, (who was married), would you not think it immoral if he was getting blowjobs from an employee at work? Hey, we love Bill, but Joe said just the right thing in that speech. How can you NOT say it's immoral? You approve of that behavior in the oval office? We can still oppose Bush and the war and *still* think that Bill's actions were immoral.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. Even the freepers aren't cutting him any slack
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. A freep summed it up pretty well for me...
"If Joe Lieberman were a true orthodox Jew then he'd vote pro-life."
Basically, Joe seperates church and state which is pretty good democratic material if you ask me.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
24. There's a reason we're called the 'democratic' party.
The vote is clear on Lieberman. He is NOT what the majority of democrats want and so we have EVERY right to be glad he is not in the race. His positions do not represent the majority of the DP. Simple. So I, for one, would like to see him and his kind lose. He is NOT the kind of democrat we want.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. The kind of Democrat we want?
When did we become the Masons?

I want EVERY Democrat.

Yes, we are the Democratic Party. Democracy. Big tent. People from all backgrounds and all ideologies seeking common ground.

We are not the "Anti-War" Party. If that was the case, Dennis Kucinich and Al Sharpton would be running neck and neck for the nomination.

Lieberman is a Democrat whether you want him to be one or not.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Fine. Let him call himself Democrat. I and many others will never support
him. You're welcome to him. Have fun and g-night.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Don't underestimate other factors
Kucinich and Sharpton have electability issues. If Edwards had voted no on IWR he would be the clear frontrunner.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
35. Excellent speech. Lieberman is a fool and a sanctimonious sell-out.
And it's not because of his positions.

As chair of the Government oversight committee, he was the only person on the planet who had the power to hold Chimp accountable for Enron (and to a lesser extent 9-11) but he was so focused on appearing "fair" to the guy that stole the vice presidency from him that he dropped the ball. On purpose, and all to further his own politcal ambitions.

Then he spends three months providing sound bites to the GOP, knowing full well he had absolutely no chance to win the nomination.

He's hurt the party more than he's helped it, and he did it knowingly. The only consolation is that He's back to being one of a hundred.
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