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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 12:05 AM
Original message
A little perspective on Howard Dean
First, I don't agree that marriage is just between a man and a woman. If I had my way, gays would have the same marriage rights as straights. But I cannot allow Howard Dean to be essentially equated with Jerry Falwell or Rick Santorum. Here's a little reminder of who this man is:

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"I believe that because until every human being is treated with dignity, because they are a human being, and not because they belong in some category, then every American and every Vermonter is poorer because of that. This bill enriches not just the very small percentage of gay and lesbian Vermonters who take advantage of this partnership and get the rights that the court has determined that they are due. I believe this bill enriches all of us, as we look with new eyes at a group of people who have been outcasts for many, many generations." - Howard Dean

http://astroqueer.tripod.com/charts/civil-unions.html

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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/gay_marriage/vermont.html

In the end, both the state Senate and House adopted a bill and Democratic Gov. Howard Dean signed it into law, setting July 1, 2000 as the day it would go into effect. It was also what Dean later described as "the most important event in my political life."

"I never got to have a discussion with myself about whether this made any political sense or not because I knew that whether I was going to win the next election or lose it, that every day I was going to have to look at myself in the mirror and decide what kind of human being I was," Dean told Tim Russert on NBC's Meet the Press.


At midnight on July 1, the nation's first civil union ceremony was held in Brattleboro, Vt., where the town clerk opened the office late at night to accommodate the event. As of the beginning of March 2004, town clerks throughout the tiny New England state have issued some 6,800 civil unions. But of those, the vast majority -- more than 5,700 -- went to people from outside Vermont.

In the days and weeks after July 1, hundreds of couples flooded the state with requests for a union.

....

The social and political ramifications for Vermont, though, ran deeper than the legal snags. The passage of the nation's first civil union law led to the formation of angry counter-groups working under the banner of "Take Back Vermont."

In the fall of 2000, Democrats lost control of the state Senate, in part due to the vote. Dean, who had cruised to multiple reelections, narrowly fended off a campaign by a leading opponent to civil unions.

"We're the laughingstock of the country," Dick Lambert, who first created the "Take Back Vermont" signs and sold 5,000 out of his garage within three months of the law taking effect, told The Washington Post. "They think we're the gay state, but this has nothing to do with us."

But the uprising appeared to be short-lived. Although several legislators were defeated in 2000, several had won their seats back by 2004. Town clerks and justices of the peace have also seen communities begin to accept the civil union concept that once outraged them.

"Although there's still a fair amount of grumbling, there's much more of an attitude of, 'Well, if that's what they want to do, let them,'" Linda Weiss, a justice of the peace in Corinth, Vt., told the AP.

Gov. James Douglas, a Republican elected after Dean retired to run for president in 2004, reflects this shift in opinion. In 2000, Douglas said he believed the legislature was moving too quickly to invent the civil union. Now, he endorses the law, and is opposed to a federal constitutional amendment on gay marriage.

"I think most Vermonters have come to accept it, to live with it," Douglas said recently to a group of reporters.
----------------------------------------------------
http://www.vtfreetomarry.org/notenough.php (These guys don't believe civil unions go far enough, yet...)

Vermont's civil union law was groundbreaking. At the time it passed, in April 2000, it shot Vermont to the head of the American pack with regard to protections for gay families, and close to the international lead. For that, we had reason to be proud and to celebrate.

Many in our community will never forget the year 2000, nor should we, with its turmoil, struggles and celebrations as the legislature answered the Baker Decision. But the civil union law resulted from a painful and difficult compromise between genuine equality and no rights at all. As we celebrated civil unions in our community we embraced what we had, instead of what was missing.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. kick
NT
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'll recommend this too.
Dean made a big mistake tonight. He went into hostile territory and made comments that were sure to offend his base in order to appease a group that has equated all of us with Satan and therefore worthy of little more than death.

However, Dean has also been there to support gay rights for years as well as most other things that a majority here believes in. He has made unpopular decisions for no other reason than they were the right thing to do. He is still a good man and a good Democrat.

That said, he owes all of us an apology for his actions today.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. Recommended, but it won't matter.
There is revenge involved here, and it is sad. It will probably continue. Please notice that he is also being attacked by the leaders in DC, and that there is word that a DFA server was shut down. Not sure of the details yet on that just saw the post here.

That is a nice post you wrote. Actually in my posts about the use of the term "marriage", I was more than anything trying to show the intolerance of different views.

The people at CBN were called freaks and fundies as well.

Sad it is happening here.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. "The people at CBN were called freaks and fundies as well."
Are you aware that the founder of CBN, Pat Robertson, accused the gay/lesbian community of being responsible for 9/11 (God's retribution)? And that he frequently equivocates homosexuality with pedophilia/bestiality? He also called for the execution of a democratically elected leader (Hugo Chavez). In the past, Roberston has said that people with AIDS suffer because God is angry with their "lifestyle".

Given these statements, and the actions of Robertson and his network, in my opinion, the people of CBN ARE FREAKS and we are treading dangerous waters when we court their vote.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I used to be like that. I am not a bad person.
I left my church over the Iraq war. Now I see the hypocrisy there, but then I did not.

There is no tolerance here toward me. That hurts too.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. I've seen no one equate you with the CBN crowd.
At least not on this thread, and none of the others I've read. That said, CBN is filled with extremists who advocate praying for the death of those who don't follow their beliefs. That is sick and twisted. Notice I did not say Christians do that, just the nutjobs from CBN. There is a difference.

I'm glad you got out of the fundamentalist church system, but you may still need to learn to disassociate yourself from it. I'm not sure.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Perhaps you need not to judge people like me at all.
Perhaps.

Perhaps I just get to be who I am. Perhaps you have no right to judge me.

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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. You're not a victim here.
I haven't read anywhere that anyone has equated you with fundamental extremists - except you. If you feel that you are an extremist who believes in the same hate filled message as those at CBN and other congregations of hate that's your business, but I judge people by their actions and religious extremists who would deny others of their rights and liberties will always be judged by me as their actions warrant.

Once again to be clear, if you are a religious extremist who shares a hate filled philosophy with CBN and others then I will judge - just as they have judged me. If you are not, then I don't know why you keep posting this kind of message. Are you trying to divert us from the subject at hand?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. You are still doing it.
I have wonderful neighbors who watch it and are able to separate the good things there from the bad.

Why? Don't you want me to speak out for the Christian side of it?
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Because you do not represent all Christians - only yourself.
There are many Christians, both gay and straight, who support legalizing gay marriage. The fundamentalists do not represent most Christians.

I'm asking in plain english: Do you consider yourself a fundamentalist Christian?
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. don't forget he said Ariel Sharon's stroke was divine punishment
for "dividing God's land" or some nonsense. Robertson is a first-class loon whom even many Republicans view as an embarrassment. The 700 club is a circus-show of Robertson's rants, "fake" news, and constant attacks on catholics, jews, mormons, atheists, medical doctors, muslims, foreigners, and anyone who does not conform to Robertson's dogmatic fundamentalist world. It's propaganda.

Howard Dean had no business appearing on this "program," and neither does any rational, sincere individual.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. You cannot, in all faith and consciousness
run away and deny what he said today.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. He did not do anything wrong today.
He talked to a Christian group. He has tried so hard to convince the gay community of the reorganization of the party, he has contacted them, met with them, but nothing is enough.

He did nothing wrong.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. CBN is not a "christian" group
They're a batty, vitrolic, anti-semitic, hateful group of bigots, and they want to control you and me.

If school-led prayer, creationism, faith-based funding, and "indecency" laws are the new direction of the Democratic Party, count me out.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. My point is made.
.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'm curious. Do you really think that CBN is a Christian group?
I mean, really. What would Jesus think of Pat Robertson's bloody diamond mines where children work in horrible conditions? Would Jesus think that it's okay for this "minister"'s network to say the things that he has said (not just about gays and lesbians)--this network has aired Robertson actually praying for surpreme court justices to die.

Is that Christian? Is it?
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. A "Christian" group...
Where have you been, have you ever seen the 700 club and CBN on TV? Pat Robertson and his "channel" are fucking hatemongers, no better than any other bigotted group on the planet, from the KKK to the Neo-Nazi party, trying to court that vote is insane, to put it bluntly.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. you cannot be surprised
Edited on Thu May-11-06 07:39 AM by darboy
at what he said today.

What made you believe that the Dem party supported gay marriage, such that this statement was a huge shock and outrage?

And you so conveniently ignore that he said gays deserve equal rights under the law, in the next breath. So that is worthy of your uncontrollable wrath?

If so, your movement just came to a screeching halt. If you are going to attack your allies because they are only 99% in favor of what you want, you will have no allies left, and you'll have nothing.

Guess what, if you want gay marriage rights, you're responsible. You've got to go to the people and change their minds. Dean has never supported gay marriage, even if he did risk his political life for civil unions.

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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Do you have an EXACT quote with context?
I'd like to see what he said that was inaccurate and incorrect?

I've seen the "recap" on the CBN site (which is about less accurate than Faux news on a good day.) But, I've not seen a transcript. However, even the CBN recap was not controversial as SOME state Dem platforms DO define "marriage" as between "a man and a woman." I believe Dean was talking about INDIVIDUAL state platforms? Additionally, Dean has said the word "marriage" has religious undertones which is why he signed a "civil unions" bill as opposed to "gay marriage" legislation in Vermont.

I don't get the uproar personally.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. If you added a couple of f words you might get that 5th recommend.
I already did. This is a thoughtful post, but not angry enough, and not enough cuss words.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. not meant to be angry
though I am sad that the gay rights movement seems to be turning down a dark path, where anger predominates over progress. It has happened in other social movements too, to those movements' detriment.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I was being sarcastic about the f words.
It is a good post.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. He has some smoothing over to do.
I hope he can make good. I've always liked Dean, but this was a major fuck-up.

Santorum, we expect it from. It hurts to see something like this coming from our side.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
13. Yes--Dean has more than earned the benefit of the doubt
I don't think this one incident is enough to really declare anything about Dean, let alone the entire Democratic party.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. That is my feeling also.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
18. kick
NT
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. A little perspective on your perspective.
The title thread says: "First, I don't agree that marriage is just between a man and a woman. If I had my way, gays would have the same marriage rights as straights. "

The first statement is not the Democratic Party point of view, since the Democratic Party is silent on 'marriage' rights.

The Democratic Party platform says men/women, men/men and women/women unions should be treated equally under the law. Whether to call all these relationships marriages or something else is up to the states.

All people/unions should have the same rights. Not all unions have to be called marriages, though. I think this is important distinction, both politically and in real life. Marriages have traditionally been between men and women. Why we would have to change thousands of years of precedent and language use, to make some unimportant point, is beyond me. The important point is equality, not the name marriage.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. if it's exactly the same -- then it will be marriage.
and churches that don't want to marry same sex couples will never, never have to.

marriage is marriage -- and it means equality to us.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. good points.
nt
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DianeK Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
24. I really think it's time..
that all legal commitments are referred to as 'civil unions' and those wanting the sacrament of marriage can have that kind of ceremony performed in the religious setting of their choice...when I was married in a methodist ceremony just a little over 30 years ago, the minister said something like 'with the power vested in me by the State of Vermont, I now pronounce you man and wife'...all the state paperwork was in order and had to be in order for the state to recognize my civil union...not sure this makes any kind of sense to any of you but when you think about it, the argument seems to be more about religious recognition than civil recognition
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killerbush Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. Just admit it, he fucked up!!! The mouth roars again
Sometimes Howard has got to STFU!!!
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
26. An addition to your post:
Edited on Thu May-11-06 01:30 PM by gully
Dean showed the same fortitude in the most controversial episode of his tenure, the fight over gay rights. In 1999, the Vermont Supreme Court declared that it was unconstitutional to deny gay couples the same rights as married heterosexual couples, ordering the legislature to pass a remedy. Although Dean had not sought this fight, he didn't shrink from it, either. Within hours, Dean announced his support for "civil unions," granting gay couples marriage rights without actually calling it marriage. Some state legislators would later suggest putting off a vote by calling for "further study." But, according to Vermont journalist Mark Bushnell in Howard Dean: A Citizen's Guide to the Man Who Would be President, Dean urged them to press ahead, telling one legislator that delay might endanger the measure's passage. "This is something we need to do, and we need to do it as fast as we can." Dean is no saint: He refused to hold a public signing ceremony, likely because it would have given his political opponents fodder. But, nonetheless, Dean took real risks by backing a civil-unions bill--and not only to his career: In 2000, he got so many death threats that the state police asked him to wear a bulletproof vest at campaign appearances.

https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=20040119&s=cohn011904

Howard Dean mispoke if he said the national dem platform recognized "marriage" between a man and a woman, but given the fact that many STATE platforms recognize that state law deem "marriage" in this manner it's easy to understand the confusion.

Howard Dean is NOT someone who should be marginalized on the issue of gay rights. He is a man who deserves respect for (perhaps) risking his life to do the right thing.
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