Dear Democrats: Fuck You.

[Sub Atomic]

Democratic Party Chair Howard Dean has contradicted his party's platform and infuriated gay rights advocates by saying the party's platform states "marriage is between a man and a woman."



I've had enough with your lip service and your lies and your fucking rhetoric.

Dems: fuck you and the fucking horse you plan on riding in on.

If you think that as an American that I do not deserve the rights of most other Americans, then FUCK YOU.

I'm done voting for party. You fuckers don't deserve my allegiance anymore.

Fucking bastards. Thanks for nothing.

[skipos]

1. You know it is ONE person who said this, right? nt

[Stand and Fight]

2. ....

[Peanutcat]

3. Um, Dean does NOT speak for me

I hope you realize that . . . . .

[rockymountaindem]

4. Bye

[Sub Atomic]

6. Thanks for the farewell.

:fuckyou:

[rockymountaindem]

12. You first

Have fun watching your rights being even further eroded by the GOP

[crizzo5137]

29. and your rights being eroded by Fridays Child

[BillZBubb]

5. Wow another really committed Democrat!

One guy makes one comment on one issue and KABOOM, you're outta here!

I don't think the party ever really had your "allegiance".

[Sub Atomic]

8. Yeah. I've been here since January of '02.

Where's your allegiance if you're willing to dismiss someones criticism so quickly?

Especially in regards to this issue.

Fuck off.

[No New War]

11. Criticism is one thing,

Abandonment is another completely. Do you really think there's no hope for the democratic party?

[Sub Atomic]

16. When Howard Dean comes out publically and says

that I'm not a relevant part of society and that my commitment (AND ALL OF THE LEGAL BENEFITS THAT GO ALONG WITH THAT COMMITMENT) is nothing but a fucking mockery for the political party I've voted for since Bush 1, then they can fuck off.

And to speak truth to the matter: I'm single. It's not a personal imposition. I've been fighting this bullshit since Reagan when I stood with ActUp.

So when Dean wants to state that marriage is exclusively for a man and a woman, all I can say is fuck off.

You bunch of fucking assholes.

[rockymountaindem]

20. This is what Dean said

"We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families. In our country, marriage has been definited at the state level for 200 years, and we believe it should continue to be defined there. We repudiate President Bush's divisive effort to politicize the Constitution by pursuing a Federal Marriage Amendment." Our goal is to bring Americans together, not drive them apart."

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. What are you mad about?

[Sub Atomic]

26. smoke this.

"marriage is between a man and a woman."

so take your pipe and walk out to the outhouse and spend some time thinking about that.

[LittleClarkie]

94. Did you vote for Kerry in the last election?

He, and Edwards, and Dean, pretty much had the same stance.

Civil unions = :thumbsup: Marriage = :thumbsdown:

[Sub Atomic]

108. Yes, I did vote for Kerry in the last election.

Because a vote for him was better than a vote for Bush.

But you know what....I'm getting tired of having to hold my nose as I touch that screen or pencil in that circle or punch that chad.

I want somebody who is going to stand up and say that as a gay man I deserve EVERY RIGHT that a straight man deserves. Whether that be in matters of HEALTH or PROPERTY or INHERITANCE or LIFE or TAXES that every heterosexual "married" couple enjoys.

I paid damn near $17K to the federal government last year.

What the fuck am I getting back for my contribution? It sure the fuck isn't equal rights.

[crispini]

'Scuse me, do you have a link for that quote?

Because that's not what's in the article they're referencing over in LBN:

http://www.sovo.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=6713

"The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says marriage is between a man and a woman," Dean said May 10 during a "700 Club" program hosted by conservative Christian leader Pat Robertson on his Christian Broadcasting Network.

[rockymountaindem]

34. I saw it here on DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1152706

This whole thing looks like nothing but an attempt to get Dean in trouble by selectively quoting him.

[crispini]

47. Well, I do think you need to re-read it, then,

because even at that link that you gave, Dean is quoted as saying:

He added, “The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what it says."

and this snippet is NOT a quote from Dean, it is straight out of the platform. I just checked it:

"We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families. In our country, marriage has been definited at the state level for 200 years, and we believe it should continue to be defined there. We repudiate President Bush's divisive effort to politicize the Constitution by pursuing a Federal Marriage Amendment." Our goal is to bring Americans together, not drive them apart."

Go back and reread what's at the link you posted.

[rockymountaindem]

69. The platform is what it is

It was written before Dean was the chairman, but he has to defend it. If we're going to be mad at Dean, it should be for going on the 700 Club, because they're out to tar him and I don't think we're going to win many votes.

The thing that strikes me as strange about this whole thread is that it's nothing new. This has been in the platform for almost 2 years. Why the outrage now? Let's not all be played by Pat Robertson, of all people.

[crispini]

77. I, personally, am angry, because Dean misrepresented the platform.

Dean should be careful and distinguish HIS opinions from the official opinions of the party. And the platform DOES NOT SAY that marriage is between a man and a woman.

Feel free to search it for yourself:
http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v002/www.democrats.org/pdfs/2004platform.pdf

[Sub Atomic]

37. Of course he doesn't.

He's another fucking "democrat" in homophobe clothing.


Fuck all of them, including this asshole.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

59. Deleted sub-thread

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[crispini]

28. 'Scuse me, do you have a link for that quote?

Because that's not what's in the article they're referencing over in LBN:

http://www.sovo.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=6713

"The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says marriage is between a man and a woman," Dean said May 10 during a "700 Club" program hosted by conservative Christian leader Pat Robertson on his Christian Broadcasting Network.

[No New War]

21. I just don't get the idea of lumping us in with his opinions.

Of all people, you should know how frustrating generalizations are... I certainly understand that you're pissed, but we need you with us to fight these very mindsets. You ARE a relevant part of society. But again, I'm ONE person, like dean, dunno if my opinion can balance his out.

[BillZBubb]

That wasn't criticism. Certainly not constructive criticism.

It was emotional lashing out based on the flimsiest of reasons. One guy, one comment, one issue. I came to the defense of the party, that's where my allegiance is. You whined you were going to abandon it.

I worked for the McGovern campaign. I think that tops your "been here since '02."

Right back atcha.

[WCGreen]

74. I've been an active member of the party since 1976...

And they have not always spoken for me...

But I have found, in the long run, I have more in common with what the democrats say, and more importantly, do than anything that has ever been said or, more importantly, done by the republican party......

[OldLeftieLawyer]

7. Did Dean really say that?

Why the fuck does any political party give a fuck what "marriage" is?

Howard Dean actually said that?

Ha.

If that's so, then it's official:

We're as fucked up as the Republicans.

[WobbliesUnite]

9. These corporate suck up loser Dems can suck my (blank)

I HAVE HAD IT!!!

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[CoffeeCat]

24. I think we've all been there...

There are times that I can't say the F word enough.

I never say it in real life, so it warms the cockles of my heart to say
it here when I need to vent.

[Old and In the Way]

10. Oh my goodness.

nt

[madfloridian]

14. Dean has never supported gay marriage, but civil unions.

Most of our Democrats take that stand, most of them. So why are you so mad all of a sudden.

Not organized or anything, I'm sure.

[LittleClarkie]

30. Because he/she wasn't paying attention?

I went through this a while back when some folks suddenly became aware of the same position when taken by Kerry. There were "fuck you's" abounding then too.

Sure would help if people took the time to find out what people stood for in the first place. Then they wouldn't have to be surprised.

I remember having to defend Dean about his war stance a while back too. Why get mad at someone when they're only saying what they've always said if only people would pay attention.

[zulchzulu]

17. Why not fight for civil unions and domestic partnerships first?

Marriage is generally a "religious" ceremony...

I personally think if two people of any sexual preference want to get "married", then they should. But I also understand that playing the "marriage" card falls right into the GOP homophobia hate-fest trap. If you think the Vatican is going to allow for "gay marriage" anytime soon, you have a lot to learn. If you think the Baptist Church is going to follow suit, again...it's a waste of time fighting.

And tragically, it expends too much time fighting over the term "marriage" when civil unions and domestic partnerships COULD BE PASSED easily if grassroots efforts followed through. Once a couple has a civil union, they have all the legal rights that a marriage has...and then that couple could benefit from that as well as have an "unofficial" marriage ceremony later.

Leave the Democratic Party and really have nothing get done. Stay and fight with fellow Democrats (and even moderate Repugs) for civil unions and domestic partnership legislation and get something accomplished.

Besides...marriage is overrated anyway. :smoke:

[madfloridian]

25. This is not just the issue.

They are after Dean now because he fired someone at the DNC because problems were gettng out of hand, and he hired someone who was more experienced.

This is an all out attack on him, and it is not going to quit. I hope DU does not become the battle gound on this.

They will watch every word he says until they catch him saying something, anything.

I am for civil unions, not gay marriage, and that is not a sin. I live in a very fundamentalist community, and most people feel that way.

[zulchzulu]

39. It boogles the mind...

I think Howard Dean is doing a great job...I suppose there will always be people out to get him...he can take it.

As for the civil union vs. gay marriage argument, I totally respect your opinion. As I mentioned in this thread, fighting for civil unions is totally possible while getting the country to be for "gay marriage" is only hellbent on defeat due to it basically giving the GOP all the ammo it needs to get people distracted and not focus on their agenda...

[madfloridian]

52. I have a post in GD about what Clinton did to him about civil unions.

But the funny thing is no one here is reading it or caring. Read it and see what I mean.

[Bill McBlueState]

54. so...

What other civil rights issues should we put on the back burner until the Republicans think it's time to pursue them?

Thing is, marriage is a legal contract with the state. For some, but not all married couples, there's also a religious element. Since we have separation of church and state in this country, the legal contract with the state is the important part from a political perspective, and to deny this legal arrangement to some citizens is contrary to the equal protection clauses found in many state constitutions.

There's never a "good" or "politically expedient" time to defend civil rights. We can't afford to be opportunistic about our duty to ensure equal treatment under the law.

[zulchzulu]

79. So....we fight for "gay marriage"...and get.....nothing....

I'm personally for gay marriage, but to not fight for civil unions and domestic partnerships first is foolish imho. It's wasting time when the incremental steps leading to gay marriage being legal can be accomplished in the near term.

Changing minds about gay marriage is generational...it's going to be another twenty years before the pendulum swings...civil union and domestic partnership legislation could be passed in 2007 if Democrats do well in 2006.

[Hippo_Tron]

107. Honestly, part of it is sheer rage at the religious right

It's not that I hate people who are deeply religious or those who are against gay marriage. It's just that sometimes the things that these people do is so horrid that I get so mad at them. Sometimes I feel like I want gay marriage to be legalized just so that these people will be forced to live with it, just like they were forced to live with inter-racial marriage and integrated schools. I know that my rage isn't going to solve any problems and I know that there were multiple civil rights bills and supreme court decisisions and about 25 years of fighting after Brown v Board of Education to achieve real integration and civil rights. Rationally, fighting for civil unions makes sense. Emotionally, it doesn't.

[Hippo_Tron]

95. What exactly is your problem with gay marriage?

Being allowed to get married, and no not just having a civil union, would make a lot of gay couples in this country very happy. Does their being allowed to get married and have this same happiness that straight couples are entitled to have a negative impact on any other person living in this country? Honestly, give me a good reason why gay marriage shouldn't be legalized.

[Bill McBlueState]

44. marriage is also a legal contract

Marriage is also a legal contract. State constitutions often have equal protection clauses similar to the federal 14th amendment that require all citizens to be treated equally under the law. Denying civil marriage to some citizens runs afoul of such clauses.

Fortunately, when it comes to interpreting and applying laws in this country, it doesn't matter at all what the Vatican or the Southern Baptists think. At least that's how we used to do things until the American Taliban started taking over.

[Old and In the Way]

68. I agree....the political issue is civil unions.

Get that, then find a religious church who'll marry you. It's stupid to be looking for any politician to be in the marriage sanctioning business.

[Xeric]

18. I'm with you dweeb

I've voted Democratic EVERY year since 1974. I have never once voted for anyone else. And what do I have to show for it? A Democratic congresslady that I HELPED ELECT that votes with the Repukes on every issue I care about AND NOW THIS.
DEMOCRATS YOU HAVE 24 HOURS TO CLEAN THIS MESS UP. OTHERWISE DON'T CALL ME DON'T ASK FOR MY MONEY AND DON'T EXPECT ME IN NOVEMBER. If my choice is Repuke or Repuke Lite then no way.

[Sub Atomic]

45. thanks.

:cheers:

[crispini]

22. The platform is the official stance of the Dem party.

The platform is adopted by all of us, painstakingly hammered out throughout the long convention process, and it is what the Democratic party officially stands for. If you have ever served on a platform and resolutions committee (I have) you will understand that the platform is a true labor of love, and that the platform is represents a consensus of literally thousands of people, and that the platform is what represents ALL of us Democrats.

"We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families," the platform says.

And I wish Howard hadn't said that. He doesn't speak for me on this issue.

[madfloridian]

27. He said he supported that.

read this.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/060510a.asp

[crispini]

32. Um, I don't see what I quoted at your link?

I do find: "He added, “The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what it says."

Is that in fact correct? I don't believe that's in the platform.

Edited to add: No, that is not in the platform. That is incorrect. I just pulled it up and checked.

[madfloridian]

42. I always thought that.

And after all the attack posts here tonight, organized elsewhere....I know for sure I agree.

Most people in our community are fine with civil unions and equal rights. They don't like the word marriage used that way, and I don't either.

I probably wouldn't have said so until all the fuck you howard dean posts.

But I do believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

[crispini]

55. The issue is not about marriage.

The issue tonight, at least in my opinion, is that the head of the Democratic Party misrepresented the official opinion of the Democratic Party as represented in the platform.

I really do have a problem with that.

The platform does NOT state that "marriage is between a man and a woman." NO WHERE. NO HOW.

If Howard wants to have his opinion, he is entitled to his opinion. But he should NOT represent HIS OPINION as the OFFICIAL OPINION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. THAT IS NOT OK.

I am a member of the Platform and Resolutions Committee for our Senatorial Convention. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH WORK GOES INTO THE PLATFORM?!!! Hundreds of thousands of hours of Democrats put a TON of work into the platform. It is by rights the only officially adopted position of the Democratic party.

Dean should NOT mis-state it! THAT IS NOT OK.

[Sub Atomic]

64. thanks for your post.

But Dean on the 700 Club pronouncing my irrelevance has struck a nerve.

[crispini]

75. Yeah, I can tell.

You have a right to be angry.

:hug:
I know it doesn't help much, but consider how the platform is built.

Platform and Resolutions start at the precinct conventions, and go from their to senatorial conventions, and go from there to state conventions, and go from there to the national convention.

At my precinct convention, we spent about 30 minutes on P&R stuff. At Senatorial, we spent about 12 hours. I've never gone higher than Senatorial, but the time spent goes up from there. And multiply this time committment by thousands of precincts and districts all over the nation. And from that chain of voting, from all of those Democratic activists, comes the statement:

"We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families."

It's hard to put all of those faceless Dems up against one guy who is the head of the party on a talk show, but they are out there, and they endorsed that statement.

[Sub Atomic]

82. So why did he go on the 700 Club?

The bastion of the 31%?

To show that the Democrats can bash the fags as good as the Republicans?

[crispini]

86. I dunno. I am disappointed in him.

He probably wanted to do "outreach." Meh.

[Sub Atomic]

71. Your assumption is insulting.

You know nothing about me nor my history here.

:cluephone:

Pick it up. It's for yuo.

[madfloridian]

101. I did not say anything about you at all.

I just want to be tolerated for my views.

[indigo32]

38. what I don't get MF

is why he's bothering with those people. They are NEVER going to vote for Dems, and in turn he sparks this reaction.

[madfloridian]

49. His job is to reach out. Many of them will consider Democrats.

Not so long ago before I left my church I was one of "them"...the ones you guys are practicaly calling freaks.

I was a Southern Baptist and I was raised that way. I am over it now, but I don't support gay marriage, I support equal rights and civil unions.

[indigo32]

72. Look I know you're angry

but first of all I never called anyone a freak. I'm not the OP, and frankly excuse me if I'm not at all convinced on your say so that he's going to overcome what their churches are telling them about the Dems.

And neither am I here freaking out over what he said. I know where Dems are. I've stood in caucuses and felt the uncomfortable silence as I asked them to just reject a constitutional amendment prohibiting marriage, (oh sure... they are all over it this year :eyes:) I'm a big girl. But don't think for a SECOND that I don't resent it. This whole separate but not equal thing is bullshit, and inexcusable. Wanna try explaining it to me? Why you would support it, am I less than you?

[LoZoccolo]

60. They do, actually.

21% of white evangelical protestants voted for John Kerry in the last election, and 30% voted for Gore in 2000.

http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=103

The evangelical=Republican meme is actually one that the Republicans picked as a strategy to help them, and one we curiously acquiesce to in furtherance of this chosen strategy.

[Xeric]

35. He's the Chairman of the party

WHAT THE HELL IS HE DOING ON THE 700 CLUB SUCKING UP TO THE THEOCRAT LOONS?!?!?
They aren't going to vote Dem and now he is insulting and humiliating a wing of the party that has been one of the most loyal. It's just nuts. The Repukes never do this to their base.

[Bill McBlueState]

61. exacly, what the hell is he doing on that show?

If people stop paying attention to him, Pat Robertson will just die and we can forget about him.

Many Democrats are so tone-deaf to the religious scene; someone probably thought it would be great for Dean to go on that show to connect with the average believer. But only whackjobs watch that show uncritically.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bill McBlueState]

80. yeah, it might be good "politically"

After all, lots of people in certain parts of the country hate black people, and we won't win in November without them on our side!

Then, he can give the keynote address at the Baby Seal Clubbing Association, and get them on our side.

I wish I understood all these complicated political maneuvers better. Guess I'm just a simpleton with my "civil rights" this and "equality" that.

:sarcasm:

[crispini]

62. I am disappointed in his appearance and in his statement.

Indeed.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

36. he doesn't speak for me either. Stay and make your voice heard.

You're not alone.

[Laelth]

40. Edited & corrected.

I had asked for the link. I found it above. :(

I'm disappointed that Dean said that. But, btw, OP, it's not like you're going to get a better deal with the Repukes. You know that, and we know that. Better to work with us than against us.

-Laelth

[Sub Atomic]

97. Laelth, thanks for you support.

I think I'm gonna go back to voting ideology again instead of voting for party.

If that means that "my vote for a third party candidate means a vote for the Republicans" then so be it.

I'm tired of throwing my support behind someone who would take my money and stab me in the back.

[CTLawGuy]

41. Why is this a shock?

when has the DNC ever supported gay marriage?

[jonnyblitz]

43. do DEMS often go on the 700 Club to proclaim it ?!?!

unfuckingbelievable. :crazy:

[madfloridian]

50. So you only want to preach to the choir?

That's sad.

[CTLawGuy]

57. why don't you get mad at all the members of Congress

and your state legislatures who don't support gay marriage. THEY can do something about it.

[madfloridian]

46. It does not support gay marriage, never has.

Many here don't either, just never said so. But if they are going attack him when he tried to be fair...then I will say so. I support civil unions, not gay marriage. I support equal rights for everyone.

All these fuck dean posts are going to turn a lot of people.

[Sub Atomic]

51. It's not these fuck dean posts that are going to turn a lot of people

It's the words that he speaks.

He announced to the world on the 700 Club that I AM A SECOND-CLASS AMERICAN WHO IS NOT WORTHY OF THE RIGHTS OF MOST AMERICANS for the sole reason that I'm gay.

So if you want to support what he's saying then all I can say is fuck you, too.

[madfloridian]

73. No, you are not telling the truth. And these attacks will backfire.

Most people are like I am, they believe in equal rights and civil unions, not gay marriage.

You can yell f you to them all you want, but in their mind it is still not acceptable.

I am 100% with Dean on this because he is trying to bridge a lot of gaps.

[inthebrain]

98. Since when do you get to decide that?

OHHH the great flaw of representative Democracy.

Minorites don't get a fair shake. If you strongly believed in equal rights you wouldnt be setteling for a seperate but equal definition as "civil unions".

Don't gimme that one step at a time BS either. MLK, Emma Golmann, Hellen Keller as well as everyother soldier in the fight for equality ever settled for that either. They fought for the whole pie and made progress (Lets not also forget that these movements were put down by those in power).

Those that care about equality would never settle for anything less.

[madfloridian]

102. Why aren't you tolerant of my views?

And the views of others?

[inthebrain]

105. Since when should I be tolerant of intolerance!!!!!!

Tolerance of intolerance= INTOLERANCE!!!!!!!

[greyl]

53. Sometimes it's effective to tilt the boat larboard

by expressing outrage and making a more firm stand on the left side, but if you abondon ship altogether, you'll be lucky to get stuck with a little dinghy.

[madfloridian]

56. How about a few more of the f word to keep it going.

Makes such an impression on those of us who know why he is reaching out. He has reached out to the gay community over and over and over...but they want only marriage. not equal rights.

[Sub Atomic]

90. Excuse me?

"They only want marriage. Not equal rights."

:wtf:

Since when is the ability to go into ICU to see your parter a right reserved to the straights?

Since when is having custodial responsibilities to take care of you and your partner's estate that you built over 20 years together a right reserved to the straights?

Since when is a couple who have retired together and one partner passes away, the partner is only entitled to receive survivor benefits if they're straight?


Do you want me to continue?




How would you feel if your wife/husband were involved in a serious car accident and in the ICU yet you weren't allowed to see her/him?

How would you feel if your wife/husband died and her/his family came and too everything that the two of you had built over a lifetime and you had no right to any of it because you were not recognized as her/his partner?

How the fuck would you feel about it?

[madfloridian]

104. I am telling you reality in my very religious city.

I am just telling you that.

[Bruden]

58. Nice, charming thread title to greet you at the top of the page.

[Laelth]

67. Welcome to DU!

:patriot:

:dem:

-Laelth

[Dhalgren]

63. I understand and sympathize with your feelings and your

attitude. I think that if we, as a nation, say that "marriage" is a religious ceremony and therefore can be granted or withheld by a church or religious group based upon their religious beliefs, then "marriage" should not be considered "legal" under the law. Everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, should be required to obtain a legal partnership or civil union, under the law. Then if someone wants to go have some sort of religious rite conducted for them, that's fine - but it would be purely religious and not "legal" in any way. If any citizen is barred from any legal ceremony, that ceremony should not be considered "legal".

I don't push for "civil unions for gays", I push for civil unions as the law of the land - for everybody.

[LoZoccolo]

65. Question for you.

Why would you expect Katrina victims and families of Iraq War soldiers to cooperate with you on your issue when you so readily dismiss theirs?

[Erika]

66. My stepson is gay and he & his partner don't wish to marry

at this time. The marriage thing is no big deal to them just like it isn't to men and women who are together. So, where's the problem?

[Hippo_Tron]

81. For some people it is a big deal

And for some of them, telling them that they should just live with a "civil union" instead of "marriage" is telling them that they don't deserve the same rights as straight people. It's not that Americans have to like the idea of gay marriage, nobody can force somebody to like something. It's that we are a country of equal rights and as a legal matter, Americans should allow gay people to have the same rights that straight people have.

Marriage also comes with legal rights, which gay couples are denied.

[madfloridian]

76. Hey waiting for the next f word to keep the spirit going here.

We are almost on recommended page, which would make us all look very good indeed.

[Sub Atomic]

87. Fu....Fu....Fu.....Fu...

Fusilli!

May you be touched by his Noodly Appendage.



I'm fusilling pissed off.

I wouldn't try to ridicule you when you were pissed.

Why are you doing it to me?

[madfloridian]

106. If you think it is ridicule, I'm sorry. Tolerance works both ways.

This board is trying to hurt the party, and it is sad. My views are not acceptable though they are in the majority of views. That is sad.

[MuseRider]

78. It is pretty

fucking sad when your rights become second or third or fourth place to winning.

What in the hell is happening to this party? I can't explain but I can say that I support you all the way, your rights and mine as a woman are important and it is sad to see that so many want to pat you on the head and tell you one more time to be patient, it will all change if we can only win this next election. Really? I no longer believe that to be true.

Dean has never spoken for me, nobody speaks for me but myself and myself is pretty fucking angry about this.

[LiberalUprising]

83. Well said dweeb

K & R

[Mr_Spock]

84. I'm sure the Republicans will be glad to sign you up !

And tomorrow when you cool off, you will feel like a buffoon for losing your cool like this.

[Hippo_Tron]

85. I have mixed feelings on this

First of all, I recommended this for the greatest page, because I think that this does need to be seriously discussed. dweeb, I sympathize with your position on this completely. I won't even pretend that I understand where you are coming from, because I don't, because I'm not gay.

In Paul Wellstone's book, The Conscience of a Liberal, Wellstone talks about voting for DOMA. Here's what he has to say...

"What troubles me is that I may not have cast the right vote on DOMA," he writes. "I might have rationalized my vote by making myself believe that my honest position was opposition. This vote was an obvious trap for a senator like me, who was up for reelection. Did I convince myself that I could gleefully deny Republicans this opportunity? . . . When Sheila and I attended a Minnesota memorial service for Mathew Shepard, I though to myself, 'Have I taken a position that contributed to a climate of hatred?' . . . I still wonder if I did the right thing.

Here's what I have to say about Dr. Dean. Next time there is another Mathew Shepard incident, and there will be a next time, Dr. Dean will have to look at himself in the mirror and ask himself the same questions that Paul Wellstone did. Has he taken a position that contribute to a climate of hatred? Of course, Paul Wellstone had the guts to publicly admit that perhaps he did make a mistake and that perhaps he did contribute to that climate of hatred. Should Dr. Dean come to the same conclusions that Wellstone did, I wonder if he will publicly admit it.

Personally I'm not a single issue voter and so I won't abandon the democratic party over this. However, I can't in good conscience expect a gay person to continue to vote democratic because of their stances on other issues, if they feel that strongly about gay rights. It's like expecting a mother who has lost her son in Iraq to vote democratic because they don't give tax breaks to the wealthy. If the war is her single issue, then I honestly can't say that I blame her.

[inthebrain]

88. I'm definitly going to look into this!!!!! Marriage VS Civil Unions

I'm not going to make up my mind just yet. I want to see those comments for myself.

Personally I am opposed the idea that government thinks they can define someone else relationship as a "civil Union". That is breeching the wall of church and state as everyone is entitled to their own belief in god. This is supposed to be a country of religous tolerance and a sytem where government is not allowed to interfere.

Whats next? Are we going to tell Buddhists that their relationship is not a marriage? Afterall, I'm sure there are differences in the contract in Buddhism that breaks from Xtianity. No one is out to redefine their relationships!!!!!

Then their is the issue of "Seperate but equal" as well.

If this is the case, that Dean said this, I am extremely dissapointed with some of you withdrawing support for one of your own. Those of us that are liberals are supposed to hold our loyalites to out fellow man higher than our loyalties to a political party. Dweeb is merely pointing a flaw in all forms a representiative governments. It's those who are minorites that tend to get the screws.

As with everything else in this country, people have not gotten ahead w/o immense struggle. This is evident in the fight for womens sufferage, civil rights and workers rights. The political establishment didn't decide to offer equality because they were feeling good one day. Even with the passage of laws it wasn't enough to grant rights without continues struggle.

I will not tolerate intolerance.

[LSK]

89. Enjoy the GOP

:hi:

[SaveElmer]

91. So long...

I'm sure whatever Party you go to will be glad to have you

[populistdriven]

92. Kerry said the same thing in his campaign

[madfloridian]

109. Stop saying that, they are only after Dean.

Quit trying to detract them from the goal. :sarcasm:

[MiniMandaRuth]

93. Howard Dean= One person.

GOP= Entire party.

Frankly, I'd rather stick with one who doesn't agree with me on some issues, rather than go running away to those that will tear down your rights.

The democrats don't need people like you, who, if offended once, take off. Democrats need strong supporters. One incident is nothing.

The GOP is one incident after another, building into a huge train wreck.

So it doesn't matter that even though the democrats... maybe not the public ones, but the smaller ones like those of us on DU, want gay marriage rights? It doesn't matter that we still work for what is right? It doesn't matter because ONE MAN said he doesn't support gay marriage? It doesn't matter?

Go ahead, abadon your post. Let the GOP win. That's what they want. They want us to start eating at each other, they want us to try and hate each other. If we all start fighting within ourselves now, then we will never succeed!

Oh well, your loss.

[Maddy McCall]

96. No.

Howard Dean = representative for the Democratic Party.

[Sub Atomic]

99. Exactly. MiniMandaRuth, why are you so myopic?

Is it that "bright shiny object" syndrome?

Stop looking at the issue at hand and look what they're selling overall.

I hate to say it, but it ain't pretty.

[MiniMandaRuth]

103. I have nearsightedness?

I have nearsightedness?

I just don't believe it.

Why do you think the Dems are called 'The Big Tent Party'?

We may not support all of the same things, we may disagree here and there. Some on bigger issues, some on smaller issues.

This was one person.

[MiniMandaRuth]

100. Well, he's still only one person.

George Bush= Representative of America (Sadly) but he doesn't represent all of our thoughts.

[Alexodin]

110. It may help to point out for the sake of education that civil unions

do not carry the same rights as marriage. There are over 2000 rights that married people have that civil unions do not grant. A marriage license should be a secular document. Equal rights means equal in every respect. I don't think much of any politician that is not willing to defend the notion that we should all have equal rights for the sake of political expediency. I see it as a matter of education. I think, perhaps incorrectly, that a dialog that explains the difference between civil unions and marriage would be of tremendous benefit.

Please....civil unions are NOT equal rights far from it. If people want to have a marriage ceremony in a church thats their business and its up to the church if they wish to marry them but we are NOT talking about forcing churches to perform gay weddings ok?

We are talking about issuing marriage licenses. Does anyone believe that a religious institution should dictate whether they get a drivers license or business license? Then why a marriage license?

Its called equality and I am not willing to play politics with that one, ever. If we lose because we have failed to make people understand the value equal rights for everyone then so be it. We must we could stand on principle and abandon dishonest triangulation.

[The Magistrate]

111. Locking

Flame-Bait.