Any Big Reason Why Movement Behind Dean Shouldn't Swithch To Kerry??

[Raya]

b]There is so much passion in the Dean camp over Kerry.

If things were reversed, I, as a former Kucinich supporter who once supported Dean, would be meeting with my Dean friends looking to work together should he get the nomination. Not that I think the world of Dean. Neither Kerry. But I have never heard a really substantial argument from my Dean friends against John Kerry. Help me with why good folks who created the “Dean movement” shouldn’t come over to the Kerry camp and continue the great fight:

Let’s put aside the old RW-style personal attack lines that have now become part of campaign propaganda:
Kerry’s a gigolo
Kerry’s an unprincipled waffler
Kerry’s opportunistic
Kerry’s skull and bones

Also, for the sake of argument, let’s accept Ted Kennedy’s testimony that Kerry’s IWR vote was to give authorization for the President to end the festering Iraq conflict through a legitimate U.N. mandated process of forced inspections and conflict resolution.

Putting these things aside, I am asking Dean Supporters to tell me what are the really fundamental differences between Dean’s views and Kerry’s that make Kerry LESS LIKELY to push a PROGRESSIVE CHANGE AGENDA, than Howard Dean.

I have followed both campaigns and I don’t know of any. I think most of the bad feeling is based on propaganda. I believe Dean supporters could (and should) joyously join the Kerry campaign if Dean continues to falter and does not get the nomination.

[BootinUp]

1. good luck n/t

[Duncan Grant]

2. Look, there goes that damn bandwagon again!

If Dean says it's over...then we'll talk about that.

[Raya]

98. The issue is changing the direction of our country

[Duncan Grant]

121. Ok. Let's talk about that when and if Dean drops out. -nt-

[kenny blankenship]

144. because john kerry is a f****** LIAR

...and anybody who believes his lies is no better than the Bush zombies who pretend to believe every changing story Bush gives for why we invaded Iraq.

Worse still, there seem to be a psychopathic cadre of Kerry supporters who know he's lying and don't care. Just like Bush's goosestepping legions.
Such people CANNOT change the direction of the country. They all go in the same direction by instinct. Like windup soldiers, marching marching marching for the Fuhrer.

Kerry looks at the Democratic party base and LIES right to their face.
"I was misled"

Bullshit.

You believe him if you want, but it's clearly an intelligence test. If he's that easily misled then he's unqualified to be mayor of Mayberry, let alone President of the United States. If it were true that he was misled then Kerry is mentally retarded.
Of course, he wasn't misled. He's not retarded. He's just a fucking liar. On the other hand, though, people who believe him ARE being misled, much too easily, and therefore any mental problem is on their end, not his.

Anyway, how is raising two more divisions "to do the job right in Iraq" which is Kerry's goal, a change in the direction of our country?
No fucking change at all. More Iraqis die, more Americans die, and the pimps of Empire will go on counting their cash.

Add to that his dalliance with people who want to put INEQUALITY back into the Constitution. Now THAT IS A CHANGE OF DIRECTION. But it's not one to vote for.
If John Kerry makes a solemn public promise never to give any aid and comfort to people trying to put discrimination against gays (or anyone else) back into the Constitution, then I can manage to hold my guts in and vote for him. If he can't do that, then there's no reason on earth why I should view him as preferable to 4 more years of Bush.

[polpilot]

160. Now here's REAL DEBATE and the 'red meat' of the differences.

Dean '04...

[Jane Roe]

Patriot Act vote

maybe this isn't inexcusable, but its a close question.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. You might want to check Dean's former statements regarding civil rights

As Governor of Vermont, Howard Dean openly claimed that the legal system unfairly benefited criminal defendants over prosecutors. He even took measures to cut federal grant money aimed at helping mentally disabled defendants--as well as appointing state judges who were willing to undermine the Bill of Rights. In a 1997 interview with the Vermont News Bureau, Howard Dean admitted his desire to expedite the judicial process by using such justices to "quickly convict guilty criminals." He wanted individuals that would deem "common sense more important than legal technicalities." Constitutional protections (legal technicalities) apparently undermine Dean's yearning for speedy trials.



Perhaps he was looking to make Vermont more like George Bush's Texas, where defense lawyers are renowned for lacking the resources necessary to provide their clients a fair representation.



Several of Dean's judicial appointments are now awaiting hearings before the United States Second Circuit Court in New York City. The Thomas Jefferson Center for the Protection of Freedom of Expression (www.tjcenter.org) and two other law firms have filed briefs against these justices. They are being accused of violating a number of federal rights including; the First Amendment, Right to Counsel, Double Jeopardy, and Due Process.


http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles7/Frank_Dean-Death-Penalty.htm

[Jane Roe]

17. That all sounds bad

but, imho, not nearly as bad as the patriot act

[dsc]

21. The VT news bureau doesn't exist

and the originator of that quote has since said he can't back it up. I did a bunch of research on this in real time.

[virtualobserver]

143. perhaps they have "rove"-ing reporters n/t

[Forkboy]

26. How is this a defense of the Patriot Act though?

Both suck.

Once again I'll tell people that you all need a better defense than "Oh yeah,look what the other guy has done".One person's actions dont excuse anothers.

Just ask Skinner :D

[genius]

125. Dean's position is worse. And his attack on due process in Vermont

is unconscionable.

[WiseMen]

151. Is this being hyper-critical?

[George_Bonanza]

78. Count Wellstone, and Kennedy among those who voted YES

Those DINOs! I'm more than willing to write of PA as an emotional mistake. To denounce all liberal Democrats as posers for voting YES would be criminalizing a lot of honourable men. And remember what Dean said, and unlike the three men above, he did not have to stain his record by voting the way he felt following September 11th. He had the convenience of hindsight.

[WiseMen]

140. Need a conference to expose the anti-kerry propaganda

[macedc]

145. Here,Here

[Jerseycoa]

3. They have their reasons

But stranger things have happened. :)

[Anwen]

4. Dean supporters should joyously join the Kerry campaign??????

I'm at work right now and can't write much, but if you haven't heard a really substantial argument as to why we shouldn't joyously join Kerry, you haven't been listening...

[WiseMen]

132. Absolutely joyous.

[Snivi Yllom]

146. there have been dozens of threads why

In the last week alone.

[EXE619K]

5. Deja vu?

I swear I saw this thread before.....

hmmm...

[Mass_Liberal]

6. it should switch

IF Dean loses. But Dean hasn't lost. Let's not be premature.

[Sensitivity]

179. I agree. At some point we have to switch and keep fighting

[aquart]

7. "Should"? Don't feel like it. No, don't feel like it at all.

And I really don't like my strong feelings about Kerry's war vote being considered "propaganda."

Why would I want a man who can only run with the herd?

[lastknowngood]

9. Kerry is not the same as Dean we actually believe in Dean

and we know that Kerry has shown very little backbone and very few convictions. If he,as a Vietnam Vet, can't stand against the shrub on this phony war when we all knew it was B.S. how can he make us believe in him?

[Snivi Yllom]

24. exactamundo

Unequal candidates.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. Newsflash: Kerry supporters believe in Kerry

and re: the Patriot Act I see being used to bludgeon John with up top, read this:

"Much of what is in Patriot Act are good ideas. The Act increased penalties for terrorists, limited the statute of limitations for terrorist crimes, and allowed for greater prosecution of overseas acts against America. I fought to include important money laundering restrictions to clamp down on the cash flowing to terrorist enterprises. I had been pushing for these ideas since the late nineties – and after September 11th they were more important than ever.

I voted for the Patriot Act right after September 11th – convinced that – with a sunset clause – it was the right decision to make. It clearly wasn’t a perfect bill – and it had a number of flaws – but this wasn’t the time to haggle. It was the time to act.

But George Bush and John Ashcroft abused the spirit of national action after the terrorist attacks. They have used the Patriot Act in ways that were never intended and for reasons that have nothing to do with terrorism. That’s why, as President, I will propose new anti-terrorism laws that advance the War on Terror while ending the assault on our basic rights...."

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_1201.html

[RetroLounge]

10. Wow. Deja Vu...

Has the bandwagon made another lap yet?

[girl gone mad]

11. I don't think that the..

people who support Dean are going to just "fall in line." Kerry represents the status quo, someone who never really made any waves in Washington, someone who went along with Bush on policies that a large contingent of his party opposed, someone who didn't have the will or the backbone to do the right thing, someone who stole other candidates' messages when his own were failing misesrably.

Not a lot to get excited about.

[Raya]

75. I think just the opposite on all points. Its like a different world of fac

of facts.

[George_Bonanza]

80. Kerry made no changes?

Please do your research instead of relying on name-calling in DU. For one thing, Kerry made such big waves in the Iran-Contra (which America can thank him for bringing to their attention) scandal that his own party took him off the case for being too zealous. And another thing, he made Richard Nixon's enemy list. What a patsy. BTW, he also led the fight against ANWR drilling. There's so much more, but I have already repeated myself on this many many times.

Kerry = status quo? Based on what? A couple of votes? Some Dean supporters are pretty select historians, choosing to forget what weakens them (or strengthens others), and choosing to highlight key events that benefit them while deriding others' attempts to do the same as "living in the past". Oh yeah, I really see Dean saying, "Vive la revolucion!"

[ProfessorPlum]

12. No there is no one big reason

there are about a million little ones . . .

[WiseMen]

66. Makes it really hard to answer.

[Eloriel]

173. You're never going to get us by your awesome powers of

persuasion. Not after the licking we've taken, not after what Kerry's dirty tricks have done to Dean (with a little help from his friends -- like Dick Gephardt, Sen. Toricelli, and so on).

No, you'd have to remake Kerry from the bottom up, and that ain't gonna happen. He's been the same arrogant, "Do you know who I am?" narcissist for all his Senate career, if not all his life. As I said in my first post to this thread (down near the bottom), he's everything we've been fighting against.

Got a different candidate for us to look at IF Dean doesn't get the nomination? 'Cause kerry ain't gonna do it for most of us.

Edit: On second thought, skip the "different candidate" issue. My mind's made up, and has been from the beginning. EVerything that transpires only confirms and validates my original choice.

[rainy]

13. Dean is for the people a real under-dog never intended to get

this far. It was remarkable that he was succeeding. The people were winning. Now, alas, we are the losers once again. With Kerry it will be politics as usual. Just different interest groups controlling his policy. His policies will not have the people at heart. He is an insider. We want an outsider. WE LOSE.

[LuminousX]

14. After all the slings and arrows...

I sincerely doubt Kerry will inherit the passion of the Dean movement. Dean supporters will vote for Kerry, Kerry is my second choice, but he won't get a dime from me (because he is going to use that dime to pay off the debt he acquired to defeat Dean.)

But the passion of the Dean supporters can only be captured by someone who echoes that passion. Kerry does not.

[WiseMen]

118. Great to hear Kerry's your second choice. Look forward to collaboration

[CabalBuster]

15. short answer: Kerry hasn't earned our support and/or respect n/t

[Raya]

70. Kerry will be working for you vote. So he says

[Egnever]

71. Yea he says a lot of things thats his biggest problem

I almost fell over laughing today when i heard him use gheps line. Like father like son 4 years and your done.

Does this guy say anything he hasny heard from someone else?

[dsc]

16. Several reasons

Tops among them is that Kerry is unelectable in my opinion. He is only doing as well as he is now due to a combination of increadibly positive press coverage and incredibly negative press coverage towards Dean. That won't be the case in the general election.

I also am withholding full support until the several reports of push polling, and the Osama ad issue are fully known.

Both of these are big issues for me.

[Raya]

72. Press has and continues to slight Kerry. Check Coverage Tonight

[dsc]

117. I would rather be slighted

and I dispute that anyway, than be savaged like Dean was. Especially given the good quality of free media in both IA and NH. Kerry got good coverage where it counted. Dean got blistered. And now Kerry is getting nothing but great coverage.

[Emillereid]

159. Tell us more -- I've heard rumors of nasty stuff happening in Iowa

but don't know all the details. Educate us. Do you have a link? I heard that that attacks on Dean from both the other candidates and the GOP were downright vicious, and that together with the media going negative on him (saw this myself) it's a wonder he did as well as he did.

[mojowork_n]

18. Well, basic distrust of The Messenger, for one...

I don't like having the media tell me who to vote for. And when they go out of their way to establish that Dean *really is* The Outsider, I'm all the more intrigued. Also suspicious about how the Democratic National Committee leadership might be reacting to just anyone coming in and taking over the party's forward momentum. (Especially somebody who's trying to shake things up and bring an honest, unbrokered point of view to the public discussion?)

I posted this in another thread but I'll re-paste it here:

I have half a hunch that some of the unanimity in the media chorus could be traced to Democratic flacks and PR spin-meisters kicking in their two bits, on top of the Republicans. I don't want to name names, because I {AH-CHOOO00TerriMcAuliffe-et-al-SNEEZE-COUGH} don't really know.

But of course, that's the trouble with the media in the first place. There's no transparency, you don't see nearly enough of the little disclaimers ("this message/news bulletin/editorial opinion brought to you by the makers of Duff Beer") that you should see. Would that politicians were like NASCAR drivers (in Jim Hightower's famous line) and you could read all of their endorsements at a glance.

And since there are actually *more* PR people in the country than there are working journalists, and probably more money and effort directed toward manipulating specific messages, as opposed to the ordinary "business of news", it's not a situation that would tend to reinforce one's confidence in the Status Quo...

...So I'm voting for Dean in the Wisconsin primary (after being positively impressed by Edwards in the debates, and except for Lieberman and Clark, not disliking any of the rest.)

[wabeewoman]

136. To see the exact media role check this out...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=353038 and more specifically this article.

http://makethemaccountable.com/podvin/media/040201_TheScream.htm

Only 39 percent of Dean's coverage on the network evening news was positive during the week after Iowa, according to an analysis by the Center for Media and Public Affairs. By contrast, rival John Edwards' coverage was 86 percent positive during the same period, and new front-runner John Kerry's was 71 percent positive, the center said. (snip)

[TLM]

19. I will not vote for Kerry.

If the choice is between Bush, and a Bush supporter... I'll write in Dean.


The whole idea of replacing Bush because of all the damage he'll do is rather moot when you want to replace him with a guy who sat on the fence voting for most of the shit Bush tried to do, which allowed him to do all the damage he did.


If the democrats want my vote, they damn well beteer run someone who is not a Bush supporter.

[MidwestMomma]

88. Yes, who is the real Bush supporter?

I posted a thread in which I asked "Who is really the Bush supporter?" because I had a thought today about everyone dumping on Clark because he said positive things about Bush and his administration in the past and it seemed to me that the REAL Bush supporters are the ones that voted for all of Bush's legislation like IWR, NCLB and PA.

I'm not bringing this up to make excuses for Clark, just thought it was interesting how people rationalize things.

[BS Detector]

20. You're kidding, right?

[chocolateeater]

22. I'm with Dean until he wins or drops out. n/t

[Lisaben2619]

23. I'm new here so I'll play

I can't answer for all Dean supporters but...I'm basically supporting Dean because he's an outsider and has spoken to many of us who the Dems have abandoned. NAFTA, FTAA,China, Don't Ask..Tell, ending "welfare as we know it", supporting Israel no matter what, etc., etc. and yes, I know Kerry has supported gay/lesbian rights more than most, but how can we trust him? This guy is an insider in a party that listens to Lieberman!
Plus, Iraq us a HUGE reason for me to not vote for him. I don't give a shit what Kennedy says.

[Raya]

29. Outsider/Insider, whats that all about. Look at Kerry's life. Much more

unconventional than most, certainly than Dean. He has been focused
on his various passion not on just being a politician -- talk to
his constituents, he is famous for neglecting local issues and running off to Rio etc for environmental meetings.

[George_Bonanza]

83. Dean is more pro-Israel than Kerry

Check this out: http://video.msnbc.com/id/4137092/

Muslims also tend to view Kerry's position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as sympathetic to Palestinians.

Not to say that Muslims aren't also impressed by Dean's stance on Iraq, but to say that Kerry will be a blind supporter of Israel is clearly ignoring the facts.

Dean's stance against NAFTA is about as fake and packaged as any gripe you Dean supporters have against Kerry. Dean went to bat for many big businesses in Vermont, such as being lenient on polluters like IBM. Jean Chretien said he would reform NAFTA. Many people say they will. At least John Kerry has the Kerry Amendment to show something for reforming NAFTA. Dean was and is for NAFTA.

"I know Kerry has supported gay/lesbian rights more than most, but how can we trust him? "

I'm sorry, I REALLY do not mean to offend you, but how the hell can you say that without saying the same for Dean? The doctor was a DLC centrist in Vermont. How can you trust him with all the schtick he says? HD, a self-professed ideal candidate for the CATO Institute, being an anti-NAFTA blue collar far-left wing revolutionary?

"This guy is an insider in a party that listens to Lieberman!"

Yeah, they listened to Lieberman so much that no notable DLC member (like Gore or McGreevey, who went for DEAN) endorsed him.

[calimary]

100. Welcome to DU! For me - I'm waiting. I'm in California, and we -

the BIGGEST state in the union - have yet to speak. I'll wait to decide until I see how my fellow Californians go. By then we'll ALL know if Dean can survive or not.

I'll end up going with whomever, or whoever, the Democrats nominate. Just not sure how much my heart will be in it. That's because it still belongs to "Hollerin' Howard." Howard Dean spoke up, and spoke out, and STOOD UP to the bushies AND the many, many timid door-mat invertebrates in the Democratic party at a time when everybody else thought it was much wiser to roll over and play dead. For that, he gets my everlasting appreciation.

[Emillereid]

162. Amen -- I'm not conceding anything or changing horses until

I get to vote here in California -- now I don't have anything against all the little bitty states that have gone for Kerry, but I'd rather not give up my right to choose the democratic candidate to them. In fact, I hope Dean and Clark and the others stay in this horse race until the convention -- I think every state should have a chance to have their vote count in the primary. And next time around i think we should get rid of McAuliffe's compressed primary schedule -- he might think it's best to pick a candidate early , but those of us who vote later would like to spend a little time with the candidates too and would like to have a chance to vote.

[pezcore64]

25. To me...

He just comes off as really fake. Like hes just putting on a show or something. Besides, he got negative REAL quick at the beginning of this primary season.

Ill give my vote to Edwards if hes still in and Dean is out.

[Hoppin_Mad]

27. Sorry but no - "We've just begun to fight" HD/WC/DK=Grassroots power -nt-

[Cheswick2.0]

28. Are you kidding?

Kerry is the last person I'd vote for.

[NashVegas]

30. Reason #45: Meet the New Boss / Same as the Old Boss

Just a different set of social policies that he may or may not have the balls to defend & enact.

Reason #46: I'm not anaesthmatized, don't need to be and don't want to be.

[hellhathnofury]

31. I've got to big issues with Kerry.

1. Campaign Finance

2. NCLB

[Raya]

34. Wellstone admired Kerry for his clean financing approach

"Special Interest" stuff has been shown to be bogus. Just compilation
of $1000 individual donors by employment group over 20 years.

Imagine if Dean internet fundraising went on for 20 years -- could you do a crosstab by occupation and claim he recieved tons of "special interest" money.

NCLB was Kennedy's bill that was hijacked and then not properly funded by Bush. Not Kerry's fault or any of the vast majority of Dems that voted for it.

[dsc]

38. It has

He has been in office since 1978 and state wide since 1983.

[bobbyboucher]

139. Are you speaking for a dead man?

Some verification might be in order.

Wellstone said he thought Howard Dean's health Care Plan was genious. Do you believe that?

[Eloriel]

174. Bundled $1000 checks -- people keep forgetting that little detail

I wonder why?

[Arlington]

32. should the time come

I will move my support to kerry. Until then, I am a Dean man.

But if you are looking for a reason, one might be that for all the years he's been in the Senate, I do not automatically think of him as being the champion of anything. You say Kennedy, I say healthcare. You say Leahy, I say human rights. Kerry...nothing.

And also, because Kerry's oratorial style would put a stump to sleep.
If nominated, he will have to salt his audiences with shills the way GWB does.

[Raya]

68. Reasonable point. But I think that applies to 90% of senators.

I think that is the way it works. Kerry mainly worked as a junior
senator behind Kennedy. Check JohnKerry.com and you will find
a lot of work he was behind.

The knock on Kerry is most of his ideas did not go anywhere.
But I don't think that says they were so bad.

[hackwriter]

33. With all due respect, here's why....

It's because in my mind, Kerry has been thoroughly corrupted by too much time in Washington. I used to like Kerry. At one time, I thought I would support him. Then I heard him speak so eloquently against George Bush's war -- right before voting for it. Now, either he believed Bush's lies or he didn't believe them but made a cynical political calculation that it would help him in his Presidential race. Either way, that knocks him out of the running for me. I knew that Bush was lying. Anyone who read something other than the mainstream US press knew. How come he didn't know? It should have been his business to know.

I don't agree with John Edwards about his war vote either, but at least he's still standing up for his vote. At least he still believes he did the right thing. Kerry is trying to have it both ways. And you can't. If Kerry would get up and say, "I shouldn't have believed this President. I should have examined it myself" -- I would still be angry but at least he would be acknowledging that he was either careless, lazy, or too trusting.

Kerry voted for the USA PATRIOT Act. Why? Because he couldn't be bothered trying to explain why it was a threat to our rights? Or was it a cynical political calculation?

Kerry voted for the No Child Left Behind Act. Why? Because he couldn't be bothered trying to explain why it was a threat to our rights? Or was it a cynical political calculation?

In the 104th Congress, Kerry voted for a provision in Welfare overhaul that could force state governments, under threat of lawsuits, to contract with religious institutions, including houses of worship, to provide taxpayer-funded social services, even if they are delivered in a proselytizing environment.

Kerry voted for the so-called "Communications Decency Act". His cohort in the Senate, Ted Kennedy, voted against it. So did the late Paul Wellstone, Russ Feingold, and even Holy Joe Lieberman.

Kerry voted in favor of National ID cards.

Kerry voted to give the FBI greater freedom to wiretap.

This shows a willingness to sell out our civil liberties rather than take the political heat or educate the sheeple about why they're dangerous.

And that's when he bothers to show up to vote. In 2003, he only showed up to vote 28% of the time.

Kerry says we should "stop crying in our teacups" about 2000. With Democrats like this, who needs Republicans? No, we shouldn't be "crying", but we shouldn't let it go and "get over it", either.

I'm not happy about what's happened to John Kerry, because I think he used to be a good guy. But he's shown a consistent pattern of doing what's politically expedient, rather than what's right. And his sudden conversion to populist just doesn't wash with me. When I look at a candidate, I don't care what they say. What have they DONE? What's his RECORD?

I look at John Kerry's record, and I see one heck of a cynical politician. This is NOT the candidate I'm going to put blood, sweat, and tears into, and once again, I'm going to have to go into the voting booth in November, hold my nose, vote for a candidate who's knee-deep in Washington corporatist money-corruption, and then walk out hating myself and wishing I had a real choice.

I'm 48 years old. I have never once been able to vote for a candidate I really believed in. That's sad.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. I totally respect the civility of your criticism and respond as follows

RE IWR:

He was very actively working against the war a forcing the UN. He has explained himself on this point and sat in a closed door security meeting that NONE of us know the details regarding.

Still, if that vote is the main issue for you, I am clear I won't change your mind and wouldn't try.

RE Patriot act:

Along with every senator but Feingold, he voted. The context of the time should count for something but doesn't.

RE: No Child

I imagine the fact that Kennedy probably asked him to..and I agree it is a bad bill that hurts us.

RE; Welfare Overhaul:

It was one of Clinton's pet programs...again the law of unintended consequences crept in and after that we lost congress. In the old days...unintended consequences were met by clean up legislation that was not passed after the Gingrich revolution.

In 2003 he underwent treatment for cancer...maybe that played a role in his temporary absence.

When I look at Kerry's record and the pardons in Iran Contra and the shit he took from his own party on BCCI as soon as it impuned the integrity of Clark Clifford and Jimmy Carter..I see a guy that got smacked back...it does not negate his accomlishments.

I am not totally against a politician whose heart is in the right place playing it safe for survival and/or longevity. I thinkself preservation makes for good sense at times.

[HFishbine]

49. Word for word

With the exception of our ages, I couldn't have said it better myself. (Although I might have added that I find Kerry boring and uninspiring.)

[PretzelzRule]

87. Thank you!

You managed to bring up EVERY point I would have.

:)

[Armstead]

94. I feel pretty much the same as Hackwriter

And Kerry's my Senator.

He's basically a good guy, but just too much "business as usual."

[WiseMen]

102. If he had too radical an image, could he win the presidency?

[Armstead]

106. Depends on how you define radical

There's many degrees of reform between total status quo and fire-breathing militant.

[kenny blankenship]

147. that didn't stop Bush

radical image not a barrier to office -- if your supporters have the courage of their convictions.

If they're a bunch no-good dithering ball-less ninnies, then they only feel safe with an oatmeal candidate running on a sawdust platform and the other side will pull the center further and further towards their side.

That's the way it's been for a quarter century now, the Democrats becoming more and more a party of worthless eunuchs while the Republicans run more and more ideological candidates, and grow more and more confident and proud of their "radicalism". George W.Bush came into office on the force of gigantic ideological deceptions --the size & kind that Ronald Reagan only dreamed about trying to foist on people. Bush's budgetary math and proposed taxcuts did not make even a _superficial_ sense. As in: 2+2=500
And the press and the Democrats just let him get away with it.

As long as the Democrats continue to run to the center they will continue to DIE OUT as a party.

That may be some DU-ers' chosen fate, but I don't intend to share it with them.

[calimary]

105. A couple of your points sure do spell out my discomfort:

1) "I knew that Bush was lying. Anyone who read something other than the mainstream US press knew. How come he didn't know? It should have been his business to know."

2) "Kerry says we should 'stop crying in our teacups' about 2000. With Democrats like this, who needs Republicans? No, we shouldn't be "crying", but we shouldn't let it go and "get over it", either."

The second one galls me beyond all belief. The second point is the one I find even harder to forgive than the first one, which, in and of itself, troubles me substantially.

I, for one, will NOT EVER BE TOLD TO 'GET OVER IT' about Selection 2000. It's almost four years later and I am STILL struggling to explain to my kids how we still have a democracy "of the people, by the people and for the people" if some guy can go sniveling and crying to the Supreme Court for a partisan ruling TO STOP THE COUNT OF THE VOTE OF THE PEOPLE!!!! JUST BECAUSE HE HAPPENS TO BE A FEW DOZEN VOTES AHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOPS THE COUNT OF THE VOTE OF THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anybody in a democracy where the vote of the people is the cornerstone of that democracy should be aghast. For Kerry and everybody else, this is NOT something you can just simplify as someone "crying in their teacups." To just "get over" the stolen election and the biggest election fraud this country has ever seen - I mean, they call out Jimmy Carter and the UN to avoid shit like this happening in other countries - is just anathema to anyone who claims to love democracy and liberty and the country our forefathers and mothers set up and fought for and sacrificed for and shed blood for. EVERY American should be outraged about this. I will NEVER get over it. It's a body blow to our democracy. Our system has been irreparably harmed by it. And for somebody who wants to lead that democracy to say this harm is just something we should "get over," well, what's next, forget it ever happened and just smile and take our soma and let John Ashcroft do whatever he wants?

Like I said, if I have to, I will support John Kerry. Because the most critical thing is getting bush and his other illegal squatter pirate pals the HELL OUT OF OUR WHITE HOUSE!!! Fine. I'll hold my nose and vote for Kerry. But those who support him so ardently and point to his track record must also realize that he also has a VERY distinct track record of capitulating to bush and trusting bush and giving bush the benefit of the doubt, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. As hackwriter points out most succinctly, Kerry should have known what a weasel bush was. Just as Tweety and Pat Buchanan on MSNBC last night should have known ALL about the AWOL controversy that first came up in the Boston Globe in 2000 and went promptly nowhere because the press refused to pick up on it. Now they're acting like they never heard of this before. There was PLENTY on bush to justify not trusting him an inch, and not giving him the benefit of the doubt, EVER. And as hackwriter says - if WE knew, why the hell didn't Kerry know? It was/is his business to know. And to stand up for us.

This is still a huge problem I have with him.

Plus my other old problem: he's got two VERY powerful weapons in his camp: Rand Beers and Joseph Wilson. Hasn't made squat use of 'em yet. What the hell is he waiting for? For bush to tell him it's time? WHY THE HELL HASN'T HE USED 'EM, with all the dirt they supposedly have on bush? WHY HAVE WE HEARD NOTHING? Does this guy want to fight and win, or doesn't he?

[Melinda]

110. Oh Mary, you're the best.

I love your passion and feel as you do BUT - I can't imagine voting for Kerry under ANY circumstances. I just can't. :shrug:

[indigo32]

35. I don't intend to add too it

but I will say that this post just begs for trouble here LOL.

[PAMod]

36. If Kerry is the nominee, I'll switch

I can't promise the hope inspired spring in my step that I had until Iowa.

[pacifictiger]

41. Kerry would not have found a voice

if it were not for Dean. If Dean's voice is totally squelched Kerry's voice will also be diminished on issues that are important for the country. I'm with Dean voice as long as he has the energy to continue.

[RhodaGrits]

39. I studied the candidates and I want Dean to be my Pres -

I am voting for the candidate I believe would be the best person for the job, not who I've been told would be most electable by the DLC and the media. I am ABB but I am a Dean supporter until the nominee has been declared. If it is Kerry, I will fight to put Bush out of office but its going to be real tough to show any passion for him as a candidate.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. 20,000 plus good reasons. And, more dying every day.

Perhaps you can accept Ted Kennedy's rationalization of Kerry's craven vote for the war. But, there are over 20,000 dead people in Iraq who provide great reasons for me not to support Kerry now or ever.

There are times when even politicians need to show some courage and vote for or against an issue just because it's the right thing to do.

Kerry failed that basic test of integrity.

[WiseMen]

43. Kerry Sought to prevent the war. He spoke out, wrote editorials etc

[slinkerwink]

51. he should've voted against the damn war!

[Melinda]

111. Show me the editorials; Show me the speeches. Let's see em.

[Nashyra]

44. If Dean drops out I hope they come to Clark

If Clark drops out I am going over to the Dean Camp. They are both Washington outsiders.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. Clark's my second choice.

I'll vote for him if he's nominated. Kerry, Edwards or Lieberman - no way.

[MODemocrat]

60. I'll be supporting Clark if Dean drops out

but, I'll have to be sure that Dean is ready before switching. I'll miss Howard Dean so much if he does drop out, because his upbeat personality cheers me up, and I really believe in him.

:thumbsup:

[Carolina]

86. exactly

I can't bear the thought of Kerry as the standard bearer. I may support Clark but I have loved listening to Dean and seeing him stir up the base and the weak-kneed Washington/DNC/DLC insiders.

We grassrooters need to join forces should one of our guys drop out. I will NOT rally behind Kerry until I have absolutely no other choice. Sure hope it doesn't come to that.

[Zinnola]

127. As a Dean supporter

If Dean drops out my second choice is Clark also.

[GobGoober]

120. If Dean drops out, I'm going immediately to Clark

Clark is my second choice.

[MODemocrat]

137. Nashyra, that's exactly what I'll be doing

Clark is my #1 choice if Dean goes out. I've always liked and admired him very much.
:thumbsup: :hi:

[edzontar]

45. I will vote for Kerry in Nov. if he is the nominee

But that is all he will get if my feelings remain as they are now.

IWR vote, DINO-DLC policies, and the rest make me very cool to the guy.

Plus I think he is a terrible campaigner and fear that he will do very badly in the GE against Bush.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. One good reason. Dean is still in the race.

Let them support their guy in peace.

[indigo32]

47. thx for that

eom

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

48. Thank you

[Andromeda]

113. I thank you too, nsma...

:toast:

[GalleryGod]

50. Oh, So the I-List Grrows

Have fun,kids!:argh:

G.G.:smoke:

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

53. Dean is still in the race, for one thing

After Dean I would vote for Edwards, then Clark. Kerry is in 4th place for me. I am not opposed to Kerry and I don't have any major gripes with him. I'll gladly vote for him if he's the nominee. Until then, please leave me alone. Thank you.

[mountebank]

54. Yes - Kerry is authoritarian. It's a big reason.

A Kerry presidency would not mean more power to ordinary citizens. By authoritarian, I don't mean he's a fascist or something. Simply that he falls above the line on the authoritarian/libertarian axis. You don't hear HIM saying "You have the power" because he doesn't believe it. HE would have the power, make no mistake.

Dean on the other hand would truly represent a power shift in this country. Ordinary citizens would be able to participate in government and it would be their duty to participate. This is reflected in his campaign organization and in his stump speeches. You have the power: A truly frightening thought for the entrenched power structure (politicians, media) as well as for sheeple who are terrified of that sort of responsibility.

For many of us, this, the authoritarian/libertarian divide, is the most important difference between the candidates. I think this is what people are getting at with outsider/insider comments, too.

[RetroLounge]

55. No thanks.

eom

[slinkerwink]

56. fuck all those join kerry threads!

[ibegurpard]

57. I've already made my feelings on this crystal clear.

Kerry MIGHT get my vote but that's IT.

[WiseMen]

59. Great. Kerry says he is fighting for every vote.

[Egnever]

74. Who gives a flying fuck what kerry says?

Its what he does that counts and from my viewpoint what he does sucks!

[dsc]

58. why was this posted?

You have gotten several replies and chose to answer exactly 0.

[On the Road]

61. If Kerry's the Nominee,

I'll vote for Kerry. Yawn. I was a Bradley supporter and came around on Gore. Maybe Kerry will make a believer out of me.

The Democratic Party and the whole country need change. I just don't think JK will accomplish that. It will be another step in the continuation of politics as usual.

Just my opinion. Not the best of time of think about supporting another candidate, especially when Dean has just been bloodied like he has. Still in a state of shock and outrage.

[killbotfactory]

62. He flip-flops on the war, pro-NCLB, pro-tax cuts...

He voted for the communications decency act (censors internet)

He's uninspiring, and pretty much the embodiment of sleazy politician who will do or say anything to get elected.

[Lexingtonian]

63. you assume

that the Dean movement is based in circumspect rationality and real insight into how to attain some society-wide greater good.

One could argue, though, that the movement is based quite purely and exclusively on reconcentrating power in the middle class- without any obvious selfrestraint.

It's the reaction to about 25 years of diminishment of the wealth and power of the middle class. It lashes out at corporations and elites and wishes to disempower them quite completely. (Hence my previous suggestion to rename it the Bourgeouis Riot Party :D ) And it insists on middle class pieties/beliefs, e.g. 'outsiders'/'insiders' and 'Internet Revolution', and so on.

Dean has done well by holding up a large mirror to these folk, by looking/acting whitebread American middle class and promising his adherents a share in- at least the rush of- power again.

Who gets neglected by this emphasis- power is zero sum, after all- is the working class, particularly minorities, which is doing the hard work of destroying the racial divisions of American society via intermarriage- while propping up the corporate middle and upper classes.

Also neglected thereby is the Culture War work of the educated elites, which drives the social-justice-in-practice progressive effort (affirmative action, women's rights, ex-felons' rights, gay equality, public education) breaking up the oppressive classisms of the pre-Modern society, the pseudo-Christian Eurocentric colonialistic social/economic order.

The Dean theorem is evidently that power can be taken away from the business interests and devolved semi-permanently to the middle class without much of a problem- it's only a matter of will/desire and political organization, the middle class is ready and willing, it only needs to be told to vote the right way and grab at the rights that become available. But the approach doesn't do well when racial and cultural politics are brought to the fore- race and culture still trump class as motivating ressentiments at the polling booth.

Kerry has not promised the middle class a privileged place, doesn't adequately feed the people organized into the Dean movement's apparent need for therapeutic rage and mollification and tautological verification and selfimportance and power rushes. I think that's the reason he does better in national polling than Dean- working class voters aren't turned off as they are by Dean's approach and following. I imagine Kerry's campaign will come up with an offering, a compromise, to bring Dean followers into the fold if/when he becomes the clearcut nominee, but at the moment the 'movement' still has sufficient numbers and rationalizations and investedness to hold out as a group.

[ozone_man]

64. Actually, I'm looking for a few good Kerry defectors myself.

Kerry supporters disturbed by his voting for the Iraq War. We will be there for years on account of Kerry's looking out for himself and his selfish presidential ambitions.

Kerry supporters upset by their loss of privacy rights as guaranteed by our fore fathers. Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, twice.

Kerry supporters disturbed by the unfunded mandate that has weakened our public school system. They call it "No Child Left Behind". Kerry voted for it.

Kerry supporters upset by his acceptance of campaign funds from lobbyists. He represents corporate interests, not the interests of the average person. Kerry is worth over $200M and that does not include his wife's wealth, which is much greater. Kerry used $6M of his own money to buy the primary.

Kerry supporters disturbed by his vanity that requires him to use Botox to make himself look younger.

I have faith that Kerry folks will awaken and see that he represents little change from Bush and that Dean offers real change to the system that Kerry is the poster boy for.

[Padraig18]

65. I'm with Gov. Dean until the last dog is hung.

Until Howard says it's over, it ain't over for me.

:dem:

[LuminousX]

67. Will this be the end of the Jump on the Kerry feel good bandwagon threads?

The total of this thread is a resounding: "We'll vote for Kerry only when we have no other choice."

[Eloriel]

175. Quite an endorsement, eh?

[nomaco-10]

69. No, I won't be "joyously" joining the ...

Kerry campaign ever. You asked for any "big reason", I'll give you three. Kerry stands for everything that I'm against in the democratic party. He is up to his eyeballs in special interest groups, he voted for IWR and he is a status quo Washington insider with nothing to write home about for his long tenure in the legislative arena. Sorry, but I'm not settling, I'm holding out for real change and a better day in Washington.
Maybe I'll end up a cliche "never a bride, always a bride's maid", but atleast whenever Prince Charming does come, I won't be damaged goods.

[meisje]

73. ABK ABB ABK ABB ABK ABB ABK ABB!

n/t

[DebJ]

76. Because the media seems to like Kerry and is doing all they can to

support him and all they can to knock down Dean

[George_Bonanza]

84. Yet another conspiracy theory

[Andromeda]

114. No, I don't think so...

Deb makes a lot of sense.

[PVnRT]

77. Because Dean isn't out of it yet?

:shrug:

[eridani]

79. Dean needs to stay in it

As a Kucinich supporter, I have sympathy for the non-officially sanctioned candidates.

[tobinov]

81. stop bickering. vote Kerry

we made the big mistakes in 2000--lets learn from them.

I was a Dean supporter (financially and verbally) until 6 weeks ago.
It is time to unite behind a candidate and I think Kerry is the man;
not a perfect man, or a perfect Democrat--but a winner against Bush and Rove,

I cannot imagine a more important quality at the moment.

[Eloriel]

176. YOU don't get to tell us what to do, incl. who to vote for

If you or "the party" wants me united, they've got a long way to go and they've started out in the absolute wrong direction.

[Abigail147]

82. Honesty and integrity.

If it goes down to the wire and there is a chance Bush might slide by, I will vote for Kerry. But that is all I am willing to give.

[zoeyfong]

85. If you have to ask... There is no redemption from a pro-war vote.

Kerry's willingness to look the other way and vote to get people killed unnecessarily because it was politically expedient is a crime in the truest sense of the word, and to choose him as the democratic nominee would make the democratic party complicit in that crime. For Kerry to become the nominee would announce to the country and the world that there is no act of treachery too detestable to be overlooked by the democratic party if there is a chance of winning power to be had. As far as i'm concerned, the democratic party is on the way to selling what is left of its soul. It will not be worth it, and i want no part of it.

[Justitia]

89. he doesn't have a prayer in Nov

Uh, I don't have an entire year to adequately answer this question, and some others have done it quite eloquently.

However, one of my very big reasons - this guy is toast against Bush.

Coming from Texas, I have seen the Bu$hCo machine up close and personal. Kerry has no freakin' idea what is coming his way, should he get the nomination. And sorry, he just doesn't have the you-know-whats to weather the sh*tstorm ahead.

The really sorry news is that even here, in RightWinger Headquarters, the Repubs admire Dean for his style and persistence. They LOVED him on the fiscal conservatism and NRA rating.

They see Kerry as a joke. If anyone seriously thought the Bu$h Admin ever considered him a real threat, you are gullible beyond belief. Come get an inside look at Texas politics, Bush league. "Electability" will have a whole new meaning.

And oh yeah, I'm with Dean - all the way baby!

[Leilani]

90. I think this is really insulting

People believe in a candidate & work their heart out for that candidate. They believe in that person, they are invested emotionally
in the campaign & the man.

Changing candidates is not like changing socks!

[Raya]

92. I have seen lots of Clark invitations to others to join the effort. No?

[RetroLounge]

104. "Changing candidates is not like changing socks!"

Good analogy for Kerry.

He has put on a new pair of socks. They just happen to be Howard Dean's socks...

[Eloriel]

91. Yeah -- because he repulses me! And that's just for starters.

Good God. Does the arrogant s.o.b. think he's entitled to US as part of his coronation? Or is it just you who harbors these delusions?

Dream on, Kerry, you ass. Dream fucking on.

[ibegurpard]

93. I second that.

eom

[WiseMen]

108. Have it occured to you that the propaganda creates false reality

regarding the opposition candidates and is destroying
the chances that Democrats can rally to win in nov.

[Eloriel]

177. No, I formed my opinions of him from what I observed directly

Thanks very much for your patronizing and insulting response.

[IndianaGreen]

116. The nomination of Kerry does not make the war or PATRIOT okay

Kerry is as much a warmonger and as much a threat to our civil liberties as Bush.

Add to that Kerry's support for Bush's NCLB, Clinton's NAFTA, and his opposition to gay marriages, and there aren't any good reasons left to vote for Kerry.

At least Bush has Barney!

I think I just might boycott the Presidential election altogether and concentrate on getting my Democratic governor and my Democratic Congresswoman elected, a task that has been made a lot tougher by having the Democrats nominate a gun-grabbing Eastern elite like John Kerry.

[CWebster]

95. Because why we support Dean

has alot to do with why we don't support Kerry.

[LuminousX]

96. I don't think Kerry could handle the Dean supporters in a way

the Dean supporters would feel respected.

[Armstead]

97. Great reply

Summed it up in a nutshell. Kerry is part of the problem, not the solution.

[mikehiggins]

99. Dean grassroots supporters have more in common with Clark supporters

than with John Kerry who is about as inside and establishment as you can get without falling off the edge of the universe.

The two candidates might not see eye-to-eye but by and large the two groups of grass roots supporters differ mostly on the way to get to the same goals, i.e. replace Bush with someone who'll break the dominance of the Establishment political thinking, and secondly, to make the Democratic party the voice of the people once again, as opposed to simply a different set of self-serving special interests.

So, if the Dean folks go anywhere, they should join with the Clark folks in standing up and getting in the face of the powerful.

And after the election, they should continue to work as one to rebuild and revitalize this Democratic Party.

Our goal should be the establishment of a two-party system in this country once again.

<<edited for stupid typo in title>>

[Eloriel]

178. You know, Mike --

I've never seen that there are things the Clark and Dean supporters have in common. I just haven't seen it at all. Maybe you're right -- maybe there's something I've missed.

[1floridademocrat]

101. For me

Because Kerry is to liberal.

Dean was and is not a liberal, he really IS a centrist, however he got "tarred" with the liberal brush by the media *shrug*


Which is the main reason I have little hope of Kerry beating Bush in the end.

The fact is.. the MAJORITY of the country ISN'T liberal.
Kerry will probably win the nomination.. and then, he will be smeared by BushCo as yet another Massachusets Liberal elite.

And the media will play along, Kerrys negatives will go up, and he will lose.

And then:

Non Dean supporters will blame the loss on Dean people.
the draft will be reinstated, Iraq will get worse, the economy will get worse, The republicans will continue to destroy America and turn it slowly into a religous right country where all dissent is illegal.

I'll vote for Kerry in the GE, but I have little faith.. that he will win.

[mmonk]

103. Let's see, where do I start............?

[progressivebydesign]

107. Sorta like Why shouldn't vegetarians just eat a hamburger?

Apples and oranges. Their ideaology is as diffent as it gets. Dean supporters would be more likely to support Kucinich than Kerry. If Kerry gets the nomination, I'll vote for him. That's it.

[tobius]

109. Dean people

are a natural fit for Clark. Kerry looks like he is quite surprised by the latest turn of events and I agree with others here that his statements and record will face unrelenting attack from the right that will be difficult to defend.

[dkf]

112. Personally, I cannot support a dirty trickster like John Kerry.

He lost all my respect with that robocalling stunt he pulled on Dean. These tactics along with the selling of access in a growing number of cases makes him too tainted for me.

Frankly, I'm beginning to think he's kinda corrupt.

[quaker bill]

115. How about this on defense spending

These are only a few examples of how the debate over military programs has been transformed. In the Reagan and Bush years, most Democrats opposed major Pentagon initiatives and tried to shift funding from military to domestic programs. Meanwhile, Republicans overwhelmingly endorsed the Reagan-Bush military plans-just as they champion Pentagon programs today.

But now many Democrats are working hand-in-glove with their Republican colleagues, fighting for favored military projects and local jobs. Harman worked with California Republican Stephen Horn-many C-17 workers live in their adjoining districts. Virginia Sens. Charles Robb-Democrat-and John Warner-Republican-teamed up to shield the Virginia-built CVN-76 aircraft carrier from congressional assault. And Cong. Norman Dicks, a Washington Democrat, is an avid defender of the Trident II (D-5) nuclear missile. Washington is home base for Trident submarines.

New England senators of both parties-with the notable exception of Patrick Leahy-united to protect the Seawolf submarine, built in Connecticut. Even Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, and George Mitchell will close ranks with the Connecticut and Rhode Island delegations when it comes to military-related jobs in New England.

...

What is clear is that a campaign to reduce military spending will take years, not months, and it will require a fundamental change in the nature of the debate. Pentagon hawks have managed to convert concern about foreign political instability and economic uncertainty at home into near-automatic approval for most military spending.

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1994/so94/so94Reports.html

<<>>>
This man has not been the 'progressive' his literature suggests he is since some time in the early 90's. The argument he has made repeatedly since the mid 90's in support of an agressive stand on Iraq does not stand in isolation as a momentary lapse in 'progressive' judgement. Check out this gem on ballistic missle defense:
<<<>>

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1996/somnibil.htm

Mr. KERRY.

Certainly one is not vulnerable to the charge of failing to prepare for a ballistic missile threat by supporting the Pentagon's and administration's request for $2.9 billion for their BMD effort. Indeed, I strongly support the vigorous research and development effort to enhance our technical capabilities to spot, track, intercept, and destroy intercontinental ballistic missiles and their warheads, and I have been a consistent supporter of programs to develop and field theater ballistic missiles.

<<>>

Other than on the environment, Mr. Kerry has a very limited recent record in support of progressive causes. I question why a thinking progressive would support Kerry at all.

[GobGoober]

119. It could be because a lot of us just plain don't like Kerry

That would be a good reason not to switch.

[maddezmom]

122. seems like a current topic, once again. :)

[JNelson6563]

123. here's a reason for now

[deutsey]

124. I think a lot of Deaniacs will vote for Kerry as second-best

I will. But I will do so holding my nose.

I was an early Kerry supporter who grew tired of trying to explain why he was rubberstamping everything Bush set before Congress. I know: Dean had the "luxury" of not having to cast votes like Kerry did. Still, Dean took considerable gambles by saying early on that he did not support the invasion of Iraq. Regardless of whether Kerry was "lied too" over IWR, he still voted for it and for a lot things the Busheviks pushed.

Sorry, the "movement" will not enthusaistically jump behind a Kerry nomination. I believe many of us will vote for him because we can do nothing else.

[opihimoimoi]

126. I will vote for Kerry, Clark, or Edwards if the Nom doesn't go to Dean...

which it appears it won't.

We Dems have but one goal and that is to take the First Fraud outta there.

The Pub philosophy of greed and domination has no place in the global Peace effort. Sustainability and stability requires Peace. Pub efforts towards that end sucks.

[seventhson]

128. I cannot and will not "get behind" Kerry

The reason is simple: Kerry has nothing of substance to make him worthy of my support.

Dean is a man essentially representing the common people. His life and career is dedicated to public service and NOT to politics.

He ahppened into politics quite by accident.

And he was damn good at it: providing health care and balanced budgets and social programs to more of his citizens than in nay other state in a responsible way and Balancing his state's budgets/

He is a HEALER and not a career politician like Kerry )or a career military man and l;obbyist like Clark).

He is FINANCED by ME and by the COMMON WORKING American, unlike Kerry who is a DLC corporate status quo insider (not to mention an active participant/"secret" member in the nastiest of elite organizations in the wasp world which is directly tied vias its members to both Hitler and the CIA)

I am like MANY Dean supporters who would probably rather vote for Nader than for Kerry -- but will probably vote for the dem nominee (if it is Kerry or Clark) while trying not to vomit with disgust.

Saddened by the naivete and purely uninformed ignorance and sheepleness of the typical uninformed or misiniformed or media driven and brainwashed American Democrat.

But who cares what I think?

I am so fed up with DU and this election and Kerry that I want to just hibernate with my children until every last Skull and Boneser and every last descendant of the Bush Klan is banished by the creator from this plane of reality.

[Upfront]

129. Dream On!

You must also believe in the tooth fairy.

[Straight Shooter]

130. I think Kerry will lead the U.S. into another senseless war

He leaves me with the impression that he can be easily swayed into another war in the Middle East, most likely Syria, and I bet his ego won't be able to resist the temptation to prove that he makes a more "heroic" commander-in-chief than bush.

Career politicians. It's all one big game to them.

And he voted for a national or federal I.D. card? Is this true? Who told him to do that?

Kerry will cause us to lose the election. Because, unlike Dean, the dirty reports from Camp Rove will have too much truth in them.

[dionysus]

131. I'll give you a reason why not

you and the cadre of people who slime Dean 24/7 have turned us off to Kerry. Guilt by association. Whoops! Now you've got bitter ABB voters who'll hold their nose and only vote for Kerry out of necessity.

Outside of DU, hopefully it's different.

[hippiechick]

135. The only way I'd "joyously" get behind Kerry ...

... would be to kick him in the a** for being such an opportunistic whiner who has spent most of the last year trying to tear apart other Dems ("... Dean, Dean, Dean ...") and steal their lines "We want to fulfill the promise of Harry Truman ..." ... "the only person in America to be unemployed under my Administration is George W Bush" (stole & twisted that line from Al Gore) rather than put forth his own ideas and plans to save the country from the Shrub.


He is nothing more than an empty suit in my eyes.
He has shown me NOTHING.


:hippie:

[napi21]

133. Another reason why....

I've supported Dean for a long time, and still think he is the best thing that has happened to the Dem Party in years!

I will continue to support him. If and when he says, sorry guys, we tried, and it didn't work, I will support the Dem Nominee.

I understand the Kerry supporters are excited. I would be too. Forgive me for not being a quiter after a FEW states have had their primaries.

[stuzzy]

134. When Dean say's it's over...

then I switch to Clark, or whoever is left running against Kerry. If Kerry gets it, then I will vote for him.

[Larkspur]

138. If Kerry wins the nomination, he will get my GE vote and that's it

He will never get any of my money. He can sell off all his property to fund his GE bid. I don't want any of my money helping a multimillionaire, who mortgaged his $6 million home, buy the nomination and White House and pay off a debt he incurred to attack my candidate. Dean earned my money by speaking against the ill-begotten war that Kerry voted for and having a good record balancing budgets.

Also, the 527 group, Club for Growth, was comprised of Gephardt and Kerry supporters who not only attacked Dean but us Dean supporters. After that crap, I will never donate to a Kerry GE campaign. He can mortgage his soul to the devil and I'd still never give him a penny of my funds.

[LuminousX]

142. In the GE, all Kerry gets from me is my Anti-Bush vote.

Everything else will have to be earned, and right now, he is in the hole with me.

[Deansspecialinterest]

141. Any big reason why we should?

Kerry is the breakout front runner, but Dean is still running a decisive second. Those who thought his campaign was dead in the water should note that his numbers are on the increase, and that he pulled 2nd in all of the weekend's contests, where he had been placing 3rd, 4th, or even 5th. There are still many months and many primaries to go. Why should we abandon our candidate when he is still showing strong support and is still a viable participant in this race? If Dean drops out of the race, I'll consider another candidate. Until then, it's Dean all the way.

[DebJ]

148. the way he voted in Congress then doesn't take responsibility for his

own votes: the 'we trusted Bush / Ashcroft / Whoever ' stuff doesn't fly with me.
a)you should be smarter than to make these decisions on trust. Has Kerry ever read the Constitutional Debates? The entire point of those fierce debates was this: how do you put in checks and balances to prevent a madman like * from taking over???? Hasn't Kerry ever read this? HE is supposed to be the check and balance, damn!

b) i'd rather hear: I WAS WRONG and it won't happen again. The buck stops here, I learned something, will do differently because I take responsibility for what I do.

[Raya]

149. Kennedy Understood and Explained the Meaning of Kerry's Vote

Why not trust Kennedy's interpretation rather than the politically motivated spin that has infected the campaign.

[kenny blankenship]

150. Why is he such a goddamn wimp?

WHy is it that this guy has to have other people make implausible explanations for HIS VOTES?

That reminds me an awful lot of Bush. Hiding behind his wife, about the AWOL thing. THen hiding behind Colin Powell his other wife, about the AWOL thing.

Kerry can't explain why he voted to transfer Congress' War Making Authority to Bush, even when Bushco had made no secret that they didn't care WHAT the United Nations voted for on Iraq.
He can't defend because it's indefensible. It was a death sentence for thousands of people. He's an accomplice almost as bad and indispensible as the underlings in DOD who agitated to get the Iraq War started.

So, brave man that he is, Kerry now gets other people to make excuses for him.

We got that kind of cowardice in the WHitehouse right now, why waste the effort of casting a ballot to replace it with something similar?

Let's think about changing the COUNTRY not just the president.

[diamond14]

152. main reason: most YOUNG people really want to be drafted....

it may be subconscious, but DU has LOTS of young draftable people chatting here...and their failure to grasp the politics....the failure to join UNITED in the effort against bush*...the failure to STAND UP and do something as simple as VOTE....the continous efforts to bicker and spit all over here....it all shows a real deep desire to be guided by bush* into the 'perpetual war' Amerikkka and go to their deaths like sheep...these YOUNG people are actually making the draft occur...forcing older Americans to see the draft as the ONLY solution...the YOUNG people's FINAL solution....

[killbotfactory]

153. Kerry wants 40,000 more people to enlist in the military within 100 days

of his presidency.

How the hell is he going to accomplish that without a draft?

[diamond14]

154. please post link to support your allegation....nobody else ever

has heard that from Kerry....


here's the link to Kerry's first 100 day plan

http://www.JohnKerry.com

-snip- from John Kerry

"In my first 100 days as President, I will revoke every Bush executive order that favors polluters and the special interests. My first major bill to Congress will be national health care reform, taking on the insurance industry to hold down costs and cover all Americans. I will repeal Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy so we can invest in education and health care. I will take on the oil industry and make energy independence a national priority while creating 500,000 new jobs. I will attack corporate corruption and end the special interest feeding frenzy in Washington. And in my first 100 days, I will declare an end to the Bush policy of unilateralism and pre-emptive war."

[killbotfactory]

155. Right here

DES MOINES, Iowa -- Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said Tuesday he would expand the U.S. military within his first 100 days as president, contending 40,000 more troops are needed to meet America's responsibilities around the world.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-dems17.html

Is he going to wave a magic wand and enlist 40k more troops?

[diamond14]

161. "United States needs a president who will seek help from allies, not on

from your own posted Chicago neo-con Sun-Times article....

John Kerry
"The United States needs a president who will seek help from allies, not only in building peace in Iraq but in the ongoing fight against terrorism, he (Kerry) said."



and you have 'faux-translated' that into saying that Kerry will DRAFT 40,000 American YOUNG men.....sad, really sad that you freel fine in twisting a great WAR HERO's words...it's time for YOU to step up and show your stuff in Iraq....win a SILVER STAR, BRONZE STAR FOR VALOR and THREE PURPLE HEARTS...then come back and we'll KNOW....

[killbotfactory]

164. He's talking about AMERICAN troops.

Not internationalizing Iraq.

How will he accomplish this without a draft? Or is it just another empty promise?

[diamond14]

168. No, YOU are talking about American troops....Kerry's stated positions

are to get INTERNATIONAL troops (OUR allies) to help....

BTW...there is absolutely nothing that is keeping you from contacting YOUR recruiting station today...and signing up...because your distortions are accomplishing what you desire, so you might as well go first....

[killbotfactory]

156. And another link. You may want to familiarize yourself with Kerry's agenda

Before you throw your support behind him.

Kerry would quickly expand military
Dem hopeful says 40,000 more troops needed

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3728422/

[diamond14]

166. says 40,000 more troops needed FROM OUR ALLIES!

from YOUR posted link.....distortion belongs elsewhere, not here...but YOUR local recruiting station will welcome faux-thuglicans...

0snip-

"Kerry said the capture of Saddam Hussein opens the door to building a coalition for peace in Iraq. He criticized President Bush for what he says has been a “go-it-alone attitude (that) has endangered our interests and enraged those who should be our friends.”

“Nowhere is that clearer than in Iraq,” Kerry said.

The United States needs a president who will seek help from allies, not only in building peace in Iraq but in the ongoing fight against terrorism, he (Kerry) said."

[killbotfactory]

170. You're in denial

"Presidential candidate John F. Kerry called yesterday for temporarily expanding the US armed forces by 40,000 troops"

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2003/12/17/kerry_details_plan_to_up_troops_blasts_dean_on_un_stance/

[Emillereid]

157. Regardless of how Kennedy is trying to play it --

Kerry's vote on IWR and the patriot act continue to bother me. Voting to give this particular imbecile president a blank check to go to war is paramount to criminal negligence. These guys might now protest that they believed Bush that Hussein was an imminent threat. I have some problems with that : 1. How did I know better and it's not like I didn't let them in on the secret -- I wrote these guys constantly with evidence that Iraq was no threat 2. Why didn't they just give Bush very limited authority to go to the UN to ask them to send inspectors in to check -- I always think a little evidence is smart BEFORE you bomb a country killing thousands of their people, don't you, 3. It is the mandated responsibility of senators to declare war and I don't think they should ever abrogate that duty and 4. the DNCs position to show as little day light between the Dems in congress and Bush was a terrible political strategy that didn't work in 2002 and it's not going to work in 2004. I'm not crazy about Kerry's vote for the patriot act either -- again, it's an abrogation of oversight duty to give this fascist government powers to take away my rights -- but I understand they didn't take the time to read or understand what they were doing (except Feingold) -- does this excuse them? God, forgive them for what they do?

Of course, I'll vote for Kerry and work for him if I have to -- but I'd rather not. I really do want to take back my country!!

[slinkerwink]

158. we hate Kerry and that;s why

I'll joyously dance on his corpse when he loses the nomination.

[diamond14]

163. than you'll be GLEEFUL when you are drafted ?

and your 'dancing on his corpse' words WILL come back to haunt YOU...so please remember those famous last words of draftees...

[killbotfactory]

167. When Kerry starts a draft, you mean?

"Presidential candidate John F. Kerry called yesterday for temporarily expanding the US armed forces by 40,000 troops"

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2003/12/17/kerry_details_plan_to_up_troops_blasts_dean_on_un_stance/

[diamond14]

169. when bush* drafts YOU....why don't you just go NOW...the military

is waiting for YOUNG disorting rethuglicans with attitudes...

[killbotfactory]

171. Pointing out that Kerry wants to expand the US military by 40k troops..

Makes me a republican now?

[Cigarskunk]

165. Does it matter?

I thought the main objective is to defeat Bush? After all, if we're willing to take money from George Soros, then we should be willing to support whomever is our candidate, no matter who our initial favorite was - right?

(Still have fingers crossed for Dean though.)

[Eloriel]

172. 'Cause Kerry and his ilk are what we were fighting AGAINST

What's the difficulty in understanding this?

Seems perfectly clear to me.

[Guaranteed]

180. That's right. We're trying to restore some integrity and credibility to

our party. It's about time the Democratic party stood for something again.

[LosinIt]

181. How about "Because he is not Howard Dean"

that is who we support, not Kerry.

[stickdog]

182. PPI

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=316117&mesg_id=316117