Kerry calls on Bush to settle questions on military record

[Feanorcurufinwe]

Democratic presidential front-runner John F. Kerry, who has turned his decorated Vietnam War service into a theme of his campaign, said yesterday that President Bush and the US military should settle questions -- raised recently by Kerry allies -- about whether Bush completed his military service requirement in the Texas Air National Guard in the 1970s. Before attending a campaign rally here that drew 2,000 people, on the eve of today's presidential primary in Arizona and six other states, the Massachusetts senator said that the matter of Bush's military service record was "a question that I think remains open." Kerry added that he lacked "the facts" to make a judgment about accusations that Bush ended his military commitment prematurely.

"It's not up to me to talk about them or to question them at this point," Kerry said of the accusations. "I don't even know what the facts are. But I think it's up to the president and the military to answer those questions." Kerry also said he was not sure if he would exploit Bush's military record as an issue in the fall general election if he were to become the Democratic nominee. "I don't know yet, I haven't made up my mind," Kerry told reporters on the tarmac of the Tucson airport.

Yet two prominent Democrats with ties to Kerry -- Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe and former senator and Vietnam veteran Max Cleland -- have ratcheted up their attacks on Bush's military record, with McAuliffe saying on television Sunday that Bush had been "AWOL" at times during his guard service. Cleland, speaking at a veterans' rally with Kerry on Friday, said the nation should not have a president "who didn't even complete his tour stateside in the guard." Kerry said yesterday he did not ask allies to attack Bush on his military record.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2004/02/03/kerry_calls_on_bush_to_settle_questions_on_military_record/

[poskonig]

1. We're going to do this all summer!

:bounce:

[hippiechick]

2. That's exactly what Clark said 2 weeks ago ....

"..."I don't even know what the facts are. But I think it's up to the president and the military to answer those questions..."

Does this guy know how to formulate a thought or idea on his own ??

I'm :scared: for this country when I think of him in charge.



:hippie:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. Let me understand this

Do you not like the answer that Clark gave? If it was the right answer for Clark, why was it the wrong answer for Kerry? If Kerry should have answered differently, what do you think he should have said?

And Kerry did also go farther and call upon Bush to answer the questions.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. No. Here's what Clark said at the debate:

CLARK: Well, I think Michael Moore has the right to say whatever he feels about this.

I don't know whether this is supported by the facts or not. I've never looked at it. I've seen this charge bandied about a lot.

But to me it wasn't material. This election is going to be about the future, Peter. And what we have to do is pull this country together. And I am delighted to have the support of a man like Michael Moore, of a great American leader like Senator George McGovern, and of people from Texas like Charlie Stenholm and former Secretary of the Navy John Dalton.

We've got support from across the breadth of the Democratic Party, because I believe this party is united in wanting to change the leadership in Washington. We're going to run an election campaign that's about the future. We're going to hold the president accountable for what he did in office and failed to do, and we're going to compare who's got the best vision for America.

JENNINGS: Let me ask you something you mentioned, then, because since this question and answer in which you and Mr. Moore was involved in, you've had a chance to look at the facts.

Do you still feel comfortable with the fact that someone should be standing up in your presence and calling the president of the United States a deserter?

CLARK: To be honest with you, I did not look at the facts, Peter. You know, that's Michael Moore's opinion. He's entitled to say that. I've seen -- he's not the only person who's said that. I've not followed up on those facts. And frankly, it's not relevant to me and why I'm in this campaign.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A39875-2004Jan22?language=printer

[Terwilliger]

8. that ends that

And frankly, it's not relevant to me and why I'm in this campaign.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

10. not necessarily

This thing will linger on and fester.

[Terwilliger]

30. I meant for Clark

though, I still dont see this issue coming to the fore w/o some Dem pressure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Read this again, and carefully

what Clark did was classic opening of the door for this to get
some traction.

As a four star he really could not come out and say, hey boys and girls our CiC did desert... it is simply not done... (even if he is no longer in the armed services) What he did was... open teh way for
the discusion and others are picking up the ball and runnign with it.

Now I read this purely as the very kind of politics that goes INSIDE
the Department of Defense... but that is me

Regardless, Moore got the ball rolling, Clark gave sort of the nod...
without actually saying it, and now this is picking steam.

About bloody time taht the privilidge kid service record, or lack off
became an issue... again.

Now lets continue the ball rolling, and this has to be brought to the atttention of ALL service members as well. Write your local papers, pick up that ball and run with it... and for god sakes, let teh troops know, as more and more learn of it, they will become angrier about it.

Nothing the military despises more than those who have shirked their duty... and Bush did.

Oh and this is not a Clark issue, or a Kerry issue, it is a national disgrace!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. Agreed, this isn't about Clark vs Kerry it's about Dems vs Bush

[krkaufman]

60. Candidates should avoid voicing this issue, themselves

Our candidates need to take a lesson from the ROG here, and avoid being the ones voicing the AWOL/deserter issue themselves. It may play well with the Democratic base, but how it will play with Independents and disgruntled-Republicans is unknown. It could turn people off.

Allow surrogates and Dem veterans to keep the issue alive.

Personally, I think Clark's message was the best; hint to the unknown resolution and that some Americans are concerned, but that it's not relevant to why he's in the race. He's concerned about Bush's more recent failures.

[Terwilliger]

7. did Clark say that?

I thought he just sais that he didn't know the facts. I didn't think he called on the president to come clean about his record :shrug:

[TheDonkey]

9. Clark is the only one who ever said that?

Give me a break.

Clark is infamous for ripping "give me my flag back" chant too.

[jcgadfly]

3. It's good to see

It's about time someone pointed Bush's lack of military record.

Too many people are saying "Hey he's got an action figure in a pilot suit. That's good enough for me!"

[kentuck]

5. Yes. Explain how you got an "honorable discharge"...

Did you go thru normal channels? Was it mailed to you Or did you pull strings with connections in Denver Colorado?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Damn, about bloody time

somebody brought up the issue,

now this is what you all do... if you kow families with ties to the
military, bring this to their attention. Trust me, nothing more bothersome to fighting men and women than to have an AWOL, Deserting President as the CiC... just that many really do not know about this.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. Keep an eye on this: "Kerry Bush AWOL" googlenews now: 58 hits

watch it grow :)

http://news.google.com/news?q=Kerry+Bush+AWOL&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=G&edition=us&scoring=d

[Davis_X_Machina]

15. In a Nov. 2, 2000 press conference...

veterans and senators Kerrey(Nebraska), Inouye, and Cleland were asking this very question -- four years ago.

Where was Sen. Kerry then?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. I saw video yesterday of Kerry saying it 4 years ago as well

on CNN.

[windansea]

13. what a joke!!

Kerry dissed Clark for not disavowing Moore and now Kerry is leading the fight to expose awol.....riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhtt!!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. No, what Kerry said was that 'deserter' was the wrong word to use.

Get your facts straight.

[windansea]

32. some facts

On Saturday, Kerry was pressed on whether he agreed with Cleland's contrasts between a challenger who has "felt the sting of battle" and an incumbent "who didn't even complete his tour stateside."

Retired Army Gen. Wesley K. Clark, drew criticism when he declined to disavow remarks from filmmaker Michael Moore that branded Bush "a deserter." Pressed on Cleland's comments, milder in language but similar in meaning, Kerry said: "I've never raised that issue, and that does not represent a position of my campaign. . . . I think Max speaks for himself."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1970-2004Jan31.html

[Monte Carlo]

34. So... what?

Max speaks for himself? Pretty weak dis if you ask me.

[windansea]

36. what part of "I've never raised that issue"

do you not understand??

[Monte Carlo]

37. I understand that was before today.

So what's the problem?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. Trying to make this into a Clark vs Kerry issue is ridiculous.

This is a Democrat vs Bush issue.

[Monte Carlo]

20. It's a question of tactics...

... not so much ends. Everybody knows that Bush went AWOL, but just blurting it out like Moore is a bit premature.

[NashVegas]

53. It's a Question of Bandwaggoning

This weekend, Terry McAuliffe pronounced it a safe subject. Probably after noting that while the press were uncomfortable with the charge, regular folks didn't seem to mind it so much.

[blm]

23. No he didn't. Why pretend that he did?

Kerry also said this about Bush in Nov. 2000 to try to help Gore.

[TLM]

55. All Kerry does is wait on the fence and let others take the heat...

Like Dean and CLark... they go out in front and take all the heat and bad press for brining up stuff like the AWOL issue or the 9-11 issues or opposing the war.

Then after they take the heat, only then does Kerry suddenly show up mouthing the same position.

[blm]

57. haha...Kerry said it 4 yrs, ago. hahahaha

.

[windansea]

61. guess Kerry is confused

On Saturday, Kerry was pressed on whether he agreed with Cleland's contrasts between a challenger who has "felt the sting of battle" and an incumbent "who didn't even complete his tour stateside."

Retired Army Gen. Wesley K. Clark, drew criticism when he declined to disavow remarks from filmmaker Michael Moore that branded Bush "a deserter." Pressed on Cleland's comments, milder in language but similar in meaning, Kerry said: "I've never raised that issue, and that does not represent a position of my campaign. . . . I think Max speaks for himself."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1970-2004Jan31.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

65. Kerry knows how to run a campaign, what to say, and when.

Desperate attempts by supporters of other candidates to find fault with Kerry for criticising Bush ring rather hollow.


It is amazing to me that some insist on taking a winning issue for the Democrats vs Bush and trying to turn it into a wedge to divide Democrats with.

[TLM]

70. Nice spin on Kerry' lying...

Kerry said something, then ran from it, attacked Clark for saying it... then once the heat passes over, only then does Kerry start to bring the issue up again.

He's a fence sitting fraud.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

71. Your mischaracterization is pathetic.

I hope after Dean concedes I won't have to respond to quite as many false characterizations.

[TLM]

63. haha... That's not what Kerry claimed. hahahahha!

"I've never raised that issue, and that does not represent a position of my campaign. . . . I think Max speaks for himself."



LOL!

[Monte Carlo]

14. Muy bueno!

The answers are not nearly as powerful as the questions.

[Egnever]

21. Kerrys whole campaign in a nutshell

I am a military guy bush is not.. you should vote for me because of that
and ignore the fact that I accomplished almost nothing in my time in congress and only get on the right side of something once it apears safe to do so. I was in vietnam!

[Monte Carlo]

24. Maybe that's what you hear

I hear a campaigner who is trying to take Bush's only issue away from him.

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. Can one of our candidates please call Bush on this? It's right

there and it would earn them a lot of votes in my opinion. This wishy washyness is irritating. Sigh...Someone? Anyone?

[TheDonkey]

25. No one will because NO one knows the facts?!

What are the facts, we are throwing out deserter, AWOL, etc but do we really have solid proof of this?

I don't think anyone want s to make this a plank issue just to have BFEE forge some document saying it's bogus and being humiliated in front of the country.

It needs to be solid clear evidence spaceshrub was AWOL, it's good enough it's being tossed around (a big improvement than what would happen 1 year ago).

[dennis4868]

41. "It needs to be solid clear evidence "

Take a look at the Boston Globe's investigation into this matter....there is no doubt that Bush was AWOL....records show that he did not show up for a year (1972-1973) and that no one who he was suppose to have served with him remembers serving with him including his commending officer....the question of whether or not he is a deserter is another question....more of a legal question. But the facts are the facts....he was at the very least AWOL in the Alabama National Guard.

[nolabels]

58. And all kinds of links to more of it here

I have this bookmarked just for times like this
http://www.awolbush.com/

[Taeger]

59. I'm not sure about that

We should be careful. How do you know that Bush's commanding officer didn't give him "unofficial" permission to not show up. In that case he would be absent WITH leave.

So the issue needs to be clearly framed in terms of asking Bush to show that he fulfilled his commitment to the National Guard. The bigger issue was the refusal to take a physical. This is the issue thats sensational.

Bush was taken off flight duty because he didn't take his physical. He previously claimed that he stopped flying because the base that he transferred to didn't have the F-102.

And of course, there is the issue with Bush's alleged drug use and the curious timing of his refusal to take a physical.

Bush has a macho image that has been carefully crafted by his handlers. It's all an illusion. He's a pampered brat from a wealthy, influential family. That is the image that needs to be revealed. Bush's true self.

[Trajan]

76. BS ...

What ought to HAMMER them on this ... and Hammer them HARD ...

These guys dont play nice ... why should we ? ..

MAKE them respond ..

MAKE them produce evidence ...

We have enough evidence to at least QUESTION Bush on this issue ..

The candidates would do wise to keep a hands off position to insulate themselves .... but us CITIZENS have every right to make the charge, given the evidence ...

Dont EVER relent .... These guys think 'bipartisanship' is when they grind our heads into the dirt ... at LEAST they didnt kill us ... right ? ..

Fuckm ... Hit'm hard with it ...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

27. We have almost 10 months to convince the American people.

Sometimes the slow steady accumulation of evidence is a more powerful argument than a strident voice.

[paulk]

28. I don't see what's wrong with the strategy the Democrats are pursuing

It's been put on the table, now it's the job of the press to investigate it. A candidate can't come out and accuse Bush of being awol or a deserter without the story being fully investigated by the press. As far as I know the only story is the Boston Globe one.

Kerry and Clark (and others) are pointing at the smoke. It's up to the media to find the fire.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Call me a "tin hatter" if you wish

But Jennings, Clark, and Kerry, have been working on this together behind the scenes. I ain't got no proof, but I can just feel it. These guys all know each other. And it would not surprise me if Clinton thought of it either.

Don

[Terwilliger]

31. if that's all true, why didn't they do this back in 2000???

Actually, I'm starting to think Moore backed Clark on purpose.

[NNN0LHI]

35. Because we were not at war in 2000 and this was not an issue

And we didn't have unelected presidents landing on aircraft carriers like the Red Baron back then either. Remember?

Don

[Terwilliger]

42. Yes, but we had no war in 92 either

and the Pubes were all over Clinton for his lack of service

In 2000, while there was no looming threat, it was still very valid to talk about this guy's service record, especially as Repukes and Conservos ALWAYS play-up the idea that they're better at national security and defense than liberals.

This is Johnny-come-lately introducing it now. It signals the same sorts of problems the Democrats have always had.

[NNN0LHI]

77. Are you suggesting that the attacks against Clinton did not cost him votes?

Come on now. I know you are smarter than that. Your grasping at straws here.

Don

[bobbieinok]

64. media said NOTHING negative about W in 2000

DON'T YOU REMEMBER?????????????

WHY - WHY - WHY are YOU so sure there's nothing there?

WHY do you trust the media 'if the media didn't report it in 2000, there must not be anything to the story.'

I do not understand your constant put-down of this AWOL story.

[Monte Carlo]

46. Could you elaborate on that?

What kind of understanding did you have in mind?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

47. Re: Jennings- he gave Clark 2 tries at an answer!!!

Jennings really helped out in the debate. He REPEATED the question so Clark could characterize the issue in as accurate a way as possible. I really saw Peter as an ally this time. He really wanted to give the issue a fair hearing.

[Terwilliger]

49. no he didn't

seriously, why do people believe Jennings was doing this for pure reasons?

He was doing it so that Clark could be attacked for having someone like Moore (who said such and such terrible thing) supporting him. Jennings is the WORST of the media-whore shills...he shills for everybody.

[Monte Carlo]

50. I am very conflicted about Jennings.

I've seen him on talk shows, and he seems to be a very intelligent guy. Most of the time, though, he's just so milquetoast on ABC news. I'd be happy to count him as an ally, though.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

52. He has a house in the Hamptons

and is very good about attending all the events out there.
He seems to be liberal.

[NNN0LHI]

54. I can't elaborate. I said I have no proof. Only a gut feeling about it

I have just come to learn that there is no such thing as coincidences in politics. That is all.

Don

[Monte Carlo]

56. No, no, I'm not being accusative, I just don't understand.

To what ends? It sounds to me like an effort to gradually break it to the American public that their President went AWOL, which hey, is fine by me.

[NNN0LHI]

66. Bush went AWOL during a time of war too

Wonder if any of our guys and gals in Iraq would like to take a year off to work on someones political campaign? As Rummy would say...you bet.

Don

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. White House says questions about Bush's service- election-year politics

Ha ha!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/03/politics1114EST0551.DTL

[bullimiami]

33. its about damn time

some of us have been pissd about bush record. and not just military. since before the 2000 election.

andy
miami

[DrFunkenstein]

38. What About The Cocaine Charges And Harken?

Throw Halliburton in there and you've got something.

Oops - I forgot that Cheney famously said he had "other priorities" besides going to Vietnam at the time. And I think Ashcroft got 7 or 8 deferments.

In fact, I think that almost the entire Bush administration is made up of chickenhawks (except Rumsfled who was a pilot training instructor).

[DrFunkenstein]

40. I Forgot Limbaugh's Anal Cyst!

What an ass...

[Ishoutandscream]

39. Gee, how long has this been talked about?

At least 4 years. And now the media is finally picking up on it more and more. About damn time.

Kerry, Clark, the DLC, etc. needs to keep hammering at this. It will certainly deflect the Republican mantra of the Dems being weak on defense. I believe this is our trump card!

On edit: Liberal media my ass!!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

44. 9/11 changed the environment

and Iraq really makes a difference too.

[meow mix]

45. weasel

he's just weaseling in. its pretty pathetic and im not impressed.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

48. Bush is a weasel

[cryofan]

51. great link here

http://elemming2.blogspot.com/2003_10_05_elemming2_archive.html

[milkyway]

62. Kerry again steps forward only after others have made

it safe for him to do so. Clark takes the shit from the media, and Kerry's getting ready to step in for the glory. But he's still unsure if it's safe, so he has others do it for him right now. A real profile in courage.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

67. I can understand how someone could be disappointed with Dean

and his clumsy attempts to criticize Bush, which seem to have backfired on him. Sometimes that disappointment might manifest itself as hostility towards Democrats, but that is misdirected, you should save your barbs for Bush.


Getting rid of Bush is an excellent message, but Americans have rejected Dean as the messenger.

[NNN0LHI]

68. I don't have the exact quote handy but Kerry talked about it in 2000 n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

69. Yes! good for Kerry. NOW he needs to say more about investigating

Iraq instead of just saying that Tenet should resign.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

72. What Kerry has to do is beat Bush

and I have the feeling he has better political instincts than anyone posting on this messageboard.

[Eloriel]

73. Well THAT's the wrong strategy

And once again shows Kerry's poor judgment re Bush.

Call him out, and if he has to he'll deliver and in spades. Just as he has in the past on other subject ("Sure, let's have an Intelligence Investigation -- I'll name the members.")

That will be the end of any media attention on the subject. It will have been "disproven" or shot down (and the media is predisposed to "believe" Bush and cover for him, in case anyone still has any doubts about that), so it will never come up again except as "conspiracy theories.

They should've lined up the proof we've got to show -- if not Kerry then one of his legion of surrogates. That would've at least been a little harder to obfuscate.

I'm thoroughly disgusted.

[NNN0LHI]

74. Thanks for your advice but I respectfully disagree with every word you said

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. Your prediction: "will be the end of any media attention on the subject."

Let's revisit this in the future and see just how correct you viewpoint turns out to be.

I guarantee - you are 100% wrong.