Bush, the End Times and you

[BobcatJH]

There are myriad reasons why maintaining the separation of church and state is of the utmost importance. From the ridiculous to the sublime, keeping these two institutions apart just makes sense.

I, for one, don't want the religious ideology of my elected officials to influence what I'm allowed to read, watch or listen to. Nor do I want reverent politicians to legislate morality or attempt to impose their beliefs on my private life. The idea of a state religion is abhorrent.

Since President Bush took office, however, one reason to keep church and state separate has taken on heightened importance. To wit: People who believe the End Times are upon us should never be given the means to bring them about.

Much of this president's recent history - read: post-drug use - revolves around his newfound faith and how it has shaped both his public and private life. Bush's faith guides his domestic policy, his judicial nominees, his treatment of gays and women. While he claims his faith is his rock, most Americans would claim it represents the rock placed upon those different than the president.

Where Bush's beliefs pose the most ominous implications is his foreign policy. When journalist-turned-sycophant Bob Woodward asked Bush if he asked his father for advice about the Iraq war, Bush said, "He is the wrong father to appeal to for advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of strength. There's a higher Father that I appeal to." When Woodward asked the president how history would judge the war, he said, "History, we don't know. We'll all be dead."

Not only does Bush appeal to a higher power for foreign policy consultation, but he also thinks he's doing the Lord's work. Since the war began, the president has been fond of saying things like, "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." This spread, of course, includes such righteous tools as chemical weapons and bunker-busting nukes.

When pressed on his actual beliefs, Bush stops short of making public pronouncements that would jeopardize his plans. Last month, in Cleveland, an audience member asked the president whether or not he views the war in Iraq and the rise of terrorism as signs of the apocalypse. His non-answer was as telling as the question itself. What Bush did say, however, offered little reassurance that the president sees his job as anything other than protecting Americans from an enemy that wants us dead.

That's just it: Bush doesn't need to sound like an End Times preacher to have the same effect. Not when everyone else in his party is willing to do the dirty work for him. Since he's been in office, Bush's surrogates have consistently spread the message that not only is God a Republican, but also that the Democratic Party is full of godless pagans who would just as soon take your Bible and allow immorality to reign supreme than look at you. Further, that no one other than the Republican Party can save you from a horrible fate.

When you've been primed into a rapturous frenzy by the Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertson and Tim LaHayes of the world, those right-wing refrains are music to your ears. If you think you're headed to heaven in short order, what good are the rest of us to you? Or the environment? Or diplomacy? What good is moderation and bridge building when your president can bring about the end of the world, which, to you, is a good thing?

Think of Bush's base of supporters - the 35 or so percent of Americans who have stuck with the president through the disaster in Iraq, the tragedy along the Gulf Coast, lies about both, lawlessness, scandal and a struggling economy. This percentage is roughly equivalent to the percentage of Americans Bush was able to convince that his policies were the answer in a complicated world in which the End Times were, quite possibly, nigh. You know, the people who can't tell the difference between a burning bush and George W. Bush.

When placed in that perspective, the administration's saber rattling toward Iran takes on a far more distressing tone. We're hearing the same language now that we heard before the invasion of Iraq. We were lied to then; there's little doubt we're being lied to now. Couple that with what we know about Bush, his myopic stubbornness and his belief that he's on a mission from God and we're presented with a very frightening thought: That we're all bit players in the president's apocalyptic Passion play.

A sizeable minority of Americans feel that the apocalypse is upon us. And their president is quite likely one of them. The key difference between Bush and his supporters, sadly, is that the End Timer-in-Chief has his finger on the nuclear trigger - and seems poised to pull it. In that case, God help us all.

[oldtime dfl_er]

1. nice post

didn't Seymour Hersch use the term "Messianic" to describe b*sh these days? Now THAT's a frightening thought.

http://www.cafepress.com/scarebaby/1297525

[BobcatJH]

3. Thanks

Scary when you think about it, isn't it?

[0007]

8. It is!

[opihimoimoi]

2. GOD is NOT a REPUBLICAN....SHE is a SCIENTIST with a passion for

LAB WORK.

SHE wants to see what EVOLUTION will bring HER.....

[Wise Doubter]

23. Question .....

If God is a man ( ...created in His image), why do we call it Mother Nature ?

Hmmm ?

:evilgrin:

[opihimoimoi]

24. Bingo, you confirm the thought....

[ElboRuum]

27. Well...

I dunno. Ask her husband, Father Time.

[Wise Doubter]

34. .

:rofl:

[paparush]

4. "..35 or so percent of Americans who have stuck with the president.."

*cough* bullshit! *cough*...that number is more like 20%...tops.

[BobcatJH]

5. Good point

I was just going with the current polling. But, if you're right (and I suspect you are), doesn't it frighten you even more that he's governing to such a small minority?

[newspeak]

6. remember * said that they create the reality

This end times BS is his sole creation. He can spout off all he wants about God's will, but we all know it's his will, not God's. Of course, I believe he feeds this image for his fundie base--that he and his family and friends are in it for the profit and power. He is definitely not a Yeshua type Christian.

[a la izquierda]

38. right on...

God has nothing to do with any of this. I'm not a religious person, but a MAN cannot bring about the apocalypse. I wrote below that Jesus could (misspeak, God, Jesus, they're all the same to Catholics technically). And this asinine rhetoric has been heard throughout history.
I used to be afraid of everything, but quite frankly, I don't think the end times are upon us (because really, i don't even think there's such a thing as the "end times").

[sendero]

7. You have to be some kind of stupid..

... to believe God would send a boy to do a man's job.

[ElboRuum]

28. And...

You have to be precisely fucko in the head to think God would send a man to do HIS job.

[SpiralHawk]

9. k and r

Opening the doors of perception...

[Bluesplayer]

10. People who believe the End Times are upon us

should never be given the means to bring them about.


Great line!

[electron_blue]

11. I just finished reading President Carter's book about our morals

and am still recovering from learning that Bush is indeed planning to participate in helping bring on the Apocalypse.

[bklyncowgirl]

12. Sy Hersh's article about Bush's Iran plans got me thinking about this.

Thanks, I agree it is frightening.

Everybody believes that Cheney is the dark force behind this adminsitration and that Bush is just along for the ride.

Personally, I think that there is something warped in Bush's character and that he may well actually believe this stuff about being on a mission from God.

[Tommyboy_2006]

13. Reminded of The Dead Zone

I've been making this reference for years, but living in a red state, city, company I always get the "I can't believe you are saying that with a straight face". If you haven't seen the original movie with Christopher Walken, then put that in your Netflix queue.

The compelling force to do gods will is the most striking similarity. I can't recall anywhere in the bible where God needs a man to help him. And to me, that is the most overblown, hyped up self importance applied to Armageddon. That they think they will actually have a part in it. Well, they will, not just the administrating of it.

[MuseRider]

19. Welcome to DU Tommyboy_2006!

I read that book when it first came out. Reagan terrified me because I saw the similarities then but darned if GW doesn't fit the bill better.

Jesus does not need PR people anymore than God needs help.

[mark11727]

25. George W. Bush _IS_ Greg Stillson...!

AT first I thought he was really Conner Rooney, but this is much more appropriate...

The missiles are flying... halleluia, halleluia..! :nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:

BTW --- welcome to DU! :hi:

[ericds555]

50. God does not need men....

but he does use them to move his plan along.

Examples: Noah, Abraham, Moses, Nebuchandnezzar,Goliath, even Hitler served God's plan. These were not all good people, but they all served HIS plan in one way or the other.

George Bush has a place in the plan, he is in the Oval Office for a reason. God's reason and what ever Bush thinks is the reason are most likely two different things. Bush is not bringing about the end times, they are here regardless of what he wants or thinks. Our actions on the world stage are playing a big role in bringing the players into position.

As a Bible believing Christian Bush scares me, not because I am afraid of the end, but because so many Christians are blind to what is going on.

[Tommyboy_2006]

53. God does not need to use men

You are mistaking God's tolerance of men. You’re suggesting that God placed Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung, Pol Pot into power is insulting to everything Jesus taught. Jesus was given the opportunity to serve in a leadership (political) position but he refused to take part(John 6:14-25).

Going with Noah as an example, he didn't do anything to help God bring about the destruction. Noah was just used to help other men learn of the pending destruction and seeked out those willing to listen and take steps to save themselves. It was God alone that brought forth the destruction, as man was only able to sit and watch.

No, I'm afraid your thinking only helps turn people off to the teachings and example of Jesus. The bible clearly states: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one". (1 John 5:19). So if Bush is doing the will of the god of this system of things...you need to ask the question "who is the real ruler of this world?".

[ericds555]

54. God does not need men....

True, Christ wanted nothing to do with a physical Kingdom at the time of his first advent, don't forget that even the dicipels expected just that right up until the crusifiction. They did not understnad what Daniel was talking about in Dan 9:26.

Daniel 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Jews in Christ day either did not understand the idea of the Messiah bing cut off, or like most people it didn't fit with their plans so they ignored that part.

If you skip ahead to Rev 20:1-6 you can see that Christ will eventual have a kingdom here on Earth.

Revelation 20:1  ¶And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Back to Noah. He certainly did not bring about the flood and I was certainly not saying that he did. He did play his part as a messenger to the people who of course thought he was crazy. Noah's faith in God and his willingness to obey God and follow his instructions is what allowed him and his family to survive.

Abraham is a good example of what happens when we think we are going to help God. Instead of accepting that Sarah would be the mother of the son God promised him, Abraham decided to do it his own way. Long story short...Abraham is the root of the conflict between Jew and Arab, but I hope we can agree that the conflict between Jew and Arab is part of the plan. Abraham screwed up, but it still moves God's plan ahead.

We never just sit and watch. We have free will, we make choices. God knows the begining from the end, he knows what your choices will be. He is not making them for you but he does know what you will do. God, through the Holy Spirit works to draw you to him, but the final decision, acceptance or refusal is up to you.

Bush is clearly not seeking the will of God, that is evident in his actions. His actions tell me Bush is seeking his own will. He may very well think he is helping God. Like Abraham, his is wrong, but his actions non the less will forward the plan. Hopefully Bush will see his mistakes, repent and turn back to God.

I am not holding my breath.

Hitler was not seeking God's will, but his actions resulted in the return of the Jews to the land God promised them. A return that was foretold in Ezekiel chapter 37. Trust me, I in my puny human understanding can't help but wonder if there wasn't some other way, but God is the one who knows the beginning from the end so I will not question his wisdom.

You are correct, Satan is the Prince of this world, but even he is subject to God's plan.

Romans 13:1  ¶Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Of course the American Christian uses this to silence anyone who questions Bush, but like the Jews in Christ's day, they are ignoring the parts of the Bible that doesn't fit with there plans.

[iamahaingttta]

14. Ya know, when Reagan was president...

...I thought he was crazy enough to want to bring about the "apocolypse," and in about '83-'84 I thought it just might happen. It turned out he didn't really believe in all that crap, and he was strong enough to keep his supporters who did from making it happen. Reagan's "legacy" is that he "helped end communism." I've said many times that that is just bullshit, it was gonna happen anyway, and that his REAL legacy is that he DIDN'T blow up the world!

GWB-666 (The Beast) (thank you R.A.W.) seems hell-bent on making it happen! And, his 20%-35% base (I usually say 33%) seem to have lives that are so crappy that a horrible painful bloody flaming nukular death is preferable to a middle-class consumerist lifestyle.

Poor babies!

[colorado_ufo]

32. Great post!

[Adnihilo]

35. An Armageddon quote from 2nd laziest president in history

A quote from Ronald Reagan, the 2nd Laziest and Stupid President Ever Next to 'W'.

"For the first time ever, everything is in place for the Battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ."

In this quote the Gipper assures the pscyhotic Christian US Moron Majority beliieving in end times that their Xtian govt. will intentionally self-fulfill their inane biblical prophecy; Seems highly probable BushHitler will make end times a self-fullfilling prophecy if not impeached...

[treestar]

42. I wonder if any of these rapturous types will see that Dubya is

the Anti-Christ! He could well be. Though Reagan had six letters in each name, Ronald Wilson Reagan. I remember that too, and his asshole "Secretary of State" saying a nuclear strike was not out of the question.

I always wonder, though, if some of Dubya's sliding ratings have to do with his not being conservative enough for some people. I have run into a couple of right wing nuts who are made at Dubya now for various reasons having to do with his not being right wing enough.

So the 35% might be saner than the 16% who have abandoned him.

[bdamomma]

15. bush is

psychotic, and has many psychological and psychiatric problems. Cheney, Rummy and Rove are the sole perpetrators of this madness, and keep Bush wrapped in the flag and politicizing religion.

[a la izquierda]

16. I know people are...

freaked out by this, but there were times when a sizable majority in American thought the end times were near. Granted, this was long before nuclear weapons, but I think this insane fear is getting a bit out of control. I don't like Bush any more than the next person on here, but frankly, sitting around fretting isn't going to do a bit of good. I don't have an answer though.

[ElboRuum]

29. My Response To Rapturists...

Rapturists: The End Times are near!!! Will you be saved?!

Me: Putting aside my deep contempt for the notion that I have to drink the Kool-Aid to get my eternal reward, let me ask you a serious question:

Are you so insipidly self-important and egomaniacal to believe that not only is the end going to happen on your watch, but you'll be the one to find reward?

[ElboRuum]

30. My Response To Rapturists...

Rapturists: The End Times are near!!! Will you be saved?!

Me: Putting aside my deep contempt for the notion that I have to drink the Kool-Aid to get my eternal reward, let me ask you a serious question:

Are you so insipidly self-important and egomaniacal to believe that not only is the end going to happen on your watch, but you'll be the one to find reward?

[Buns_of_Fire]

52. And my response to rapturists...

"It's already happened. I see you didn't make the final cut either..."

[a la izquierda]

17. and another thing...

i was raised roman catholic. anyone with even a shred of knowledge of christianity (and i'm including bush & co. in this) knows that men cannot bring about the apocalypse. god has to do it. and historically, religious people in all different eras of history have commonly thought that before jesus comes back, society must be perfected. i'm fairly certain we're about as far from that as we can get.

[colorado_ufo]

33. If I recall correctly

the Bible states that even Jesus said he did not know the day and hour.

[Alcibiades]

39. Catholicism has little to do with it

The theology of the current administration springs from the varied Pentecostal eschatologies. This theology is fundamentally Calvinist, i.e. MAN isn't bringing about the End Times, but men do fulfill their destinies as preordained by God. Thus, Bush can act as he does, bringing us to the brink of armageddon, and see himself as the instrument of God in fulfillment of HIS prophesies.

Amen and pass the cool-aid!

[TexasBushwhacker]

46. It's all about the Scofield Bible and Dispensationalism (eom)

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Trevelyan]

20. "And Many false prophets and teachers shall arise, GO NOT AFTER THEM!"

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mat 24:8 All these the beginning of sorrows.

Mark 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
For those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here Christ; or, lo, there; believe not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (Nuclear winter) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, at the doors.

(And when you see Israel compassest about with armies and the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place, know that the end is near, even at the very door)

"I am the Good Shepard that careth for the sheep, all who came before me were hirlings who run away when they see the wolf because they are hirelings and careth not for the sheep." The Gospel of St. John is very mystical and comforting after the fear from the truth of the suffering of this present age. At the end of Revelations, the last two chapters, you can see that the end is also the beginning of a new heaven and new earth which the meek will inherit and there "will be no more killing or destroying in all my Holy Mountain, for the lion shall lie down with the lamb..." more at The Book of Isaiah....

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[swwallace81]

22. Does * go to church?

I know Laura went to SMU but does that make them Methodists? I've only seen one instance on TV where he even attended a service (other than Coretta Scott King's funeral). Also, if Pat Robertson had such nasty things to say about the Pa. School Boards decision on intelligent design, I wonder what he thinks of the hurricaine, wild fires, tornadoes, and floods of Texas? Could there be punishment there?

[Trevelyan]

31. Reagan gave the excuse when JOURNALISTS asked why he didn't go to church

and he said that he didn't want to disrupt the services by having a famous president attend. The bootlicking press we have now would not dream of asking junior why he does not go to church and they imply that he is God's right hand man.

"AND MANY FALSE TEACHERS AND PREACHERS WILL ARISE. GO. NOT AFTER. THEM."

[Child_Of_Isis]

26. GOP = Party Of God...

I saw that on a bumper sticker once. Of course it is ass backwards. Like most republicans.

[NativeTexan]

36. Great Post, Bobcat!!!

Well thought out, and accurate posts like that is what drew me to DU!! I stand humbled in your presence.

[Adnihilo]

37. re. the 35% or so: "True Believers", The RWA & Platonic Philosophy

re. "Think of Bush's base of supporters - the 35 or so percent of Americans who have stuck with the president through the disaster in Iraq, the tragedy along the Gulf Coast, lies about both, lawlessness, scandal and a struggling economy. This percentage is roughly equivalent to the percentage of Americans Bush was able to convince that his policies were the answer in a complicated world in which the End Times were, quite possibly, nigh. You know, the people who can't tell the difference between a burning bush and George W. Bush."

Glad I'm not the only one to make those observations! Made some very similar ones in an article I wrote on my 'Less That Human' blog here in Acts of Imaginary SkyGods about the ‘less than human’ insane level of Christian Religious Psychosis stemming from the Katrina disaster.

It is not far fetched in the least to conclude these same Christian psychotics believing natural disasters stem from an imaginary, invisible Father in the Sky are the very same clinically insane psychotic Christians making up the 40% of US Adults polled who believe the physical world will eventually end as a result of some supernatural intervention <1>. It is also highly likely this 40% of US adults believing in a coming SkyGod inflicted Doomsday are of the very same 40% Christian category of US Adults who still give Bush a positive approval rating. <2> There is little doubt these matching 40% categories in both polls consisting of an approximate 90 million strong represent the same large group of Christian ‘true believers’ in America.

It is also a reasonable conclusion that the 1 in 5 sample of US Adults surveyed that still believe inane biblical claims of an earth-centered solar system, <3> are a full half of the same 90 million true believers still approving of Bush and believe an invisible, imaginary SkyGod will soon bring about doomsday. There is little doubt these 1 in 5 of US adults still inanely and rather insanely believing in an earth centered solar system make up 1/2 or 45 million of the 90 million Christian ‘true believers’ in America.

These 90 million Christians in America must be the “eternally incomplete and eternally insecure” category of ‘true believers’ Eric Hoffer speaks of in his book of the same name that he also estimates to be roughly the same 40% of Americans. Especially when considering the 2002 Time/CNN poll finding “that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book of Revelation are going to come true”. <4> This 20% variance between 60% true believer voters and 40% true believers out of all US Adults likely means they take full advantage of voting for theocratic rule that can more efficiently spread their Christian virus of the mind to those not afflicted.

This 90 million group of true believers making up 40% of all US adults are the only actual votes that Americans can be sure Bush did garnish out of the alleged 52% claimed in this most recent and proven fraudulent GOP election. It is a 90 million strong group of clinically insane psychotic Christian true believers in America who most all vote Bush knowing full well that he, as their ‘Born Again’ modern day Messiah and leader, also has the same inane and insane self-fulfilling Armageddon obsession they all share together. <5>

This was back when his approval ratings had dipped to around 40% due to Criminal Negligence in this emergency. Aristotle and others have estimated that about 1/2 of all humans adhere to a 'Platonic' faith-based life philosophy in their reaction to the world around them. However 1/3 of these Platonic 'believers' make up a more dangerous group Eric Hoffer referred to as 'true believers' in his book on them called 'True Believers: Mass Movements.'

What Aristotle argued in what is now called Aristotelian thought, or the rational, is that the 'thinker' knows that reason is the light that will show them the way in life. Plato argued in what is now called Platonic thought, that the individual finds their way in life through the 'special' endowed wisdom of a very few 'humans' on earth, both dead and alive, that will show them the way in life. What that really means is that the Platonic type 'believes' others to have the wisdom to show them their way in life. That others will provide them 'reason' for their own existence. The 'Believer' is externally directed, where the rational, the thinker, and the Aristotelian based is internally directed.

What these two modes of thought in philosophy present from Aristotle and Plato are two distinct, separate, and different overall visions for human attitude toward life and the purpose of life - each a philosophy of life for each and every human being human - without a personal need to even be 'aware' of these two modes of thought or philosophies in life. Each a philosophy in a mode of thought 'preferential' in reacting to life, and each providing very different responses. When combined they both provide a more complete picture of how all humans represent one or the other mode of thought embodied by each philosopher - the Believer set of humans represented by Platonic thought and philosophy of life and a Thinker set of humans represented by Aristotelian thought and philosophy in life.

The Platonic 'believer' is someone now who could now be referred to as fostering that 'RWA' personality. Plato's view of Human nature is Authoritarian. This RWA Psychopathic Personality Disorder is the root cause of terrorism, fascism, cults and much of the world’s societal ills with its beginnings found in the hellinistic period stemmng from that age old argument on life philosophies between Aristotle and Plato. I've summed up that age old argument between the conflicting life philosophies of Aristotle and Plato here in the following context for the MTV Attention Deficit Generation out there:

Aristotle is to Naturalism as Plato is to Dualism; Unification of mind and body is to Naturalism as Separation of soul and body is to Dualism; Evolution is to Naturalism as Creationism is to Dualism; Naturalism is to Atheism as Dualism is to Monotheism; Reason, Science and Rationalist is to Aristotle as Faith, Religion and ‘Believer’ is to Plato. The age old debate looms evident with Logic founded by Aristotle and Judeo-Christian faith-based beliefs and authoritarian dogma finding their basis in Plato.

It has been proven over and over in behavioral Science that it is those 30 to 50% humans with this externally directed 'believer' relation to the world around them that can be 'converted' or brain washed so completely, so easily and so readily. Neuro linguistic programming and the MLK Ultra program are more recent and devasting brainwashing tools our present Christofascist Religious Right brand of GOP politicians today have added to their toolbox of mind control along with religion, the original tool of conversion...

Some References
Christianity's Philosophical Roots in Platonism
Avoiding Plato’s Republic in America

[rasputin1952]

40. Here in Nebraska, I am up to my neck in Fundamentalists, and while

these are essentially very nice people, they are deluded in my opinion; as deluded as bush and the miscreants that call themselves "defenders of the faith".

Zealots of any stripe are dangerous creatures. They have only the thought of their "mission", nothing else is of importance. When it comes to the "End Timers", this can be extraordinarily dangerous for everyone.

How pathetically we have forgotten the Millerites, and other bands of "End Timers" from the 19th/20th Century. How sad it is, that these people who are pushing us toward Armageddon, don't have the faintest clue of what the message of the man called Jesus was. To make a very valid point, Jesus spoke of the problems of hypocrisy far more often than anything else. Love, compassion, empathy, forgiveness were next in line, and the end of times is given very little space or time.

There are great moral lessons that can be learned from the Bible, none of which bush has adhered to; in fact, bush has gone out of his way to bypass the Beatitudes, and go straight to hellfire and brimstone. Condemnation and killing are not party of the equation, but somehow these themes are prevalent in bushworld. His corruption of the religion is fostered by the likes of Falwell, Robertson and a the whole myriad of buffoons that think they know more about the Bible than anyone else who has read the book. Danger lies in the teachings of these babbling hypocrites, and that danger can be very real if bush thinks that God placed him here to accommodate the Apocalypse.

If, as bush claims, he is placed into the position of president by God, how can he think of killing thousands and perhaps millions as a "good" thing. I can't think of being in his shoes on judgment day, God just might be kind of ticked off.

In any case, checking the power of bush is essential to bringing this nation back to a place where the world is a tad more safe. One of the Houses in congress would do it. If we can control at least one House, we can check this loose cannon, perhaps, just perhaps, God, (whatever you consider God), might see that we are not a species of complete fools.

If you don't have any religious standing, that is fine too. Just knowing that some banal, low IQ president of the US had his power removed, and won't be blowing up the earth in the near future, should put you at ease.

[TomChicago]

41. End Timers

As close as we are to madness and catastrophe, the very last thing we need on this planet is this particular strain of wingnuttery in positions of power. It is a nihilistic view, a view that simply gives up on this life on earth in favor of some future in a paradise. It is ironic that the bloody jihad of some Islamists have so much in common with these Christian nihilists. It is a revisiting of Jonestown.

[Adnihilo]

44. Tom:"Christian nihilist" is an Oxymoron

re. TomChicago:
As close as we are to madness and catastrophe, the very last thing we need on this planet is this particular strain of wingnuttery in positions of power. It is a nihilistic view, a view that simply gives up on this life on earth in favor of some future in a paradise. It is ironic that the bloody jihad of some Islamists have so much in common with these Christian nihilists. It is a revisiting of Jonestown.

There's no such thing as a "Christian Nihilist" Tom or what some ranting Anti-Moslem moron Jew called 'Islamo-Nihilists' in supporting his inane argument why Bush in not ENOUGH of a warmonger against Moslem nations on PNR about a week ago..

Simpy put, "Christian Nihilist" is an Oxymoron . Dictionary definition of Nihilist is someone who rejects all theories of morality or religious belief. I'm a nihilist. My AKA here in Adnihilo is latin for: to bring to nothing, annihilate, demolish. It’s root comes from the latin nihil and nililum defined as nothing. The most well known derivative of Nihil is of course Nihilist and Nihilism. A common but misleading description of nihilism is the ‘belief in nothing’ or a "a revolutionary doctrine that advocates destruction of the social system for its own sake Instead, The last common definition in dictionaries is rather short-sighted leaving out the nihilist motivation advocating destruction of specifically'faith-based' social systems. A far more realistic and truthful description substitutes anti-faith’ for ‘anti-belief,’ where faith is defined as the “firm belief in something for which there is no proof.”

A nihilist is simply one who rejects all faith-based or religious belief systems. Obviously a Nihilist cannot possible be an adhereent to any sort of faith based religion. The nihilist is the sworn enemy of any Religous fundamentalist in all the fallacious faith based belief systems . A nihilist is everyone’s infidel but another nihilist… A Nihilist is the atheist version of a religious fundemenatalist. Nihilism really has little to do with “anarcho-hucksters” of any variety regardless if of the socialist variety or the anarcho-capitalist Randian version found in the American social darwinist pseudo-libertarian movement. Anarcho-hucksters do not focus on denying fallacious belief systems, but do reject many of the same ‘isms’ and institutions stemming from the fraud of faith-based belief systems.

I firmly believe now more than ever, there is only one ‘ism’ powerful enough to eradicate the myriad of incredibly destructive ‘isms’ of faith-based religions. Nihilism is strong enough to eradicate these destructive and fallacious faith-based isms yet again reeking havoc around the globe. Conditions in both middle eastern Islamic and western Judeo-Christian social organizations and culture have become so diseased that their total destruction is the only viable solution for its own sake independent of any constructive plan or outcome.

Abouth the Author Adnihilo

A Learning Source on Nihilism

[Omegaman]

43. I work with a *Bible Believer* and

he is all about, "if it isn't in the Bible I don't
believe it."  A total intelligent design person:  Earth
is only 10,000 years old, fossils and other proof that the
world is older are *from the Devil.*  Bush has never lied, he
is just being *misunderstood*, and on and on and on.  It is
everything I can do to not to laugh in his face! He even
thinks that the Bugman is a *good Christian Man* that has been
attacked because the Democrats don't have any way to defeat
him.

[Thorrific]

45. hilarious cartoon about End-Timer mentality

Hello, please watch my ultra-hilarious Flash cartoon about this kind of nonsensical End-Timer mentality that has gripped our country:

http://www.thorrific.com/christianpiratepussies.htm

thanks
Thorrific

[Tommyboy_2006]

47. 2 minutes I'll never get back

Thank you lumping everything together. The point of the article is demonstrating the need for separation of church and state, not to ridicule people's faith, no matter how bad we think some of them are misguided.

I’m new here, so I’ll keep my response tempered…but I think it's safe to say we have all lost a few IQ points after watching your animated turd.

[newspeak]

48. throughout history,

there's been perceptions of the end of the world. During the time of Nostradomus, there were other seers, all proclaiming the end times. Humanity has these ups and downs on predicting the end times, doncha know?? People have given up property, money thinking it was the end times. However, we still are here and we are in one of those upswings of end time mania, brought to you by the looney toons crowd!!!!

[Tommyboy_2006]

49. Need to stop bashing religion

Again, I think folks are missing the point by centering on the End times theme. The discussion is about separation of church and state and placing a check on the House of George. If you are all so quick to bash religion, then you are all no better then the right wing nuts that label anyone pinko commie liberals just because they decline from drinking Bush's kool-aid.

Granted, the idea itself of end times or last days has been warped and it's easy to see through the hypocrisy of those seeking political power. I just ask you be careful not to lump it all together. You will help the other side better understand if you stick to the main theme here and not ridicule their beliefs.

[Thorrific]

55. if someones beliefs are crazy I will make fun of them all I want

Hi,
people have this misguided idea that if they "believe" something, or 'have faith', then they automatically deserves everyone else's "respect".

I call BS on that!

1. Just because you 'believe' something does not make it true.
2. The issue here is Christian End-Timer beliefs. Name just one other religion that has such political power in the USA that also believes in such nonsensical crap.
3. Someone's religion does not automatically deserve my respect just because it is a religion and they 'really believe' in it. Do you respect the people who killed themselves for the Heaven's Gate cult, or the Jim Jones People's Temple cult, and do you respect the beliefs that caused them to do it? Are you going to avoid criticizing OBVIOUSLY INSANE BELIEFS because you do not want to offend some stupid people who 'really believe in it'?
5. Bullshit artists like Sean Hannity are always saying that someone is a good man and trustworthy because they are 'a man of faith'... well, the dictionary definition of 'faith' is "belief in something in which there is absolutely no proof".

I have all the proof I will ever need that Apocalyptic Christianity is stupid, nonsensical, and incredibly dangerous. It takes a totally 'faith-blinded' moron to not be able to see this fact.

[ericds555]

58. It works the other way as well

I hope you understand, just because you chose not to believe in the Bible, it does not automatically become false. If you say there is no God do you think he just shrugs his shoulders and goes away. He is not Tinker Bell, he does not fade away if we stop clapping our hands.

God is real, his Word is true and prophecy will come to pass. There is more then enough fulfilled prophecy to give credence to the rest of it.

The right wingers are making a mistake by trying to help move things along. I think that is a small percentage of them. Most of them just go to church once a week, vote the way they are told and don't give it any thought beyond that. The irony is that they are becoming the very thing they used to warn us about.

Revelation 3:19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

[Thorrific]

59. prophecy is easy to 'fulfill' with enough time and organization

If you have a dynastical organization and a couple of hundred years to work on it, like the Dispensationalists and other groups have, it is very easy to make it appear that 'prophecy' is being fulfilled.
Christians like you usually think that "Israel" miraculously sprung into existence in 1948, and are totally ignorant of Theodor Hertzl and the Zionist movement which began in the later 1800s.
People like you use non-argument statments like "God's word is true" or "Jesus is the Absolute Truth"... sorry, but that is not a logical argument and has absolutely no credibility. It's called "circular logic" - look it up.
Jesus himself said that you can judge a tree by its fruits, and by that standard, Christianity is total horseshit, seeing as how it has murdered and oppressed people for over 1000 years. Your quoting of Bible verses does nothing to support your argument.

Jesus also said that he would reject most of the people who claim to be his followers:

Matthew 7: 15-23

7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

7:19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
----------------------------------

These verses remind me of assholes like Tim LaHaye, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell, and anyone else who tries to brainwash people into accepting genocide and totalitarian theocracy.

[ericds555]

60. True Christianity

Actually I am not ignorant of the Zionist movement. It didn't start in the 1800's it started a long time before that with a group of Hebrew slaves leaving Egypt.

The birth of Christ, his life, his death and resurrection does not appear to fulfill prophecy, it does fulfill prophecy. I am sure you have your own answers for that.

Human knowledge and understanding will always make Christianity look silly. Christianity is about submitting your will to that of God, which will lead you to a whole new way of looking at things. Yes that is hard to swallow, but there it is.

I agree Matt 7 15-23 reminds me of Tim LaHaye, Pat Robinson, Jerry Falwell and a whole host of other so called Christian leaders who rally around Bush with the hopes of pushing their agenda forward. Not every Christian (me for one) looks to those people for leadership.

So these guys are using Jesus Christ for their own ends, is that Christ fault? Do we lump him in with them just because they use his name?

Tim LaHaye, for all his faults was not that far off the mark with the Left Behind books. He did make one big mistake. There will be no pre tribulation rapture. He and the rest of these guys who think they are all set are going to have to face the trouble that is coming, it will be interesting to see how they fare.

[newspeak]

62. oh yeah, Tim Lehaye

:eyes: Apparently has no problems taking money from Sun Yung Moon---you know Moon, doncha? The one who was crowned in a Sentate chamber room, along with his wife? The one who believes that he's the second Messiah, that Jesus didn't quite get it right? You know that one? Have you ever thought that the "Left Behind" series was written for a specific purpose? That the timing of the series fits nicely in with the advent of this administration? That everything is being orchestrated by a group of deeply disturbed individuals for a purpose? Did you ever think?

[ericds555]

63. Tim LeHaye

I don't know anything about LeHaye taking money for Sun Yung Moon, wouldn't surprise me.

Have I considered the timing of the Left Behind series and how nicely it paved the road for certain things? Of course I have. That however does not change the things that are going on in the world, which are starting to look like they fit the end times scenario.

The Christian Right may be trying to ready the world for Christ return, but they are making a mistake. Nothing in the Bible suggest that Christians are supposed to retake the world for God. The Bible tells exactly the opposite will be the case. These people, like Judas have decided they don't like the way it is supposed to happen, they're going to do it different.

Judas wound up hanging from a tree.

Do not judge God by looking at people. People are imperfect and downright stupid. These same preachers and Christian leaders 20 years ago were preaching against the things they are doing today. They don't even see it.

It would be funny if it were not so serious.

[newspeak]

61. you are emphasizing people making fun of religion

I am not-I am, however, making ridicule of a segment who, through their beliefs, cause the wholesale suffering of others with their beliefs. I have studied other religions, the scrolls from Nag Hamadi and some Aramaic texts of the New Testament--by the way, texts from Aramaic has a whole different meaning than what is translated in that black book. I have a problem of a certain group of people shoving their beliefs down the throats of others!!!! And, I am not a great fan of dooms day prophets or groups--for they cause more misery on the human race and on the Earth itself. A zealot is a zealot!!! If the creator wishes to destroy it's creation, it does not need the aid of some minuscule human. Of course, we, as mere humans, will not know the day nor the time of said destruction. It is pure ego and arrogance to even think one is doing the work of the creator!!!!!

[Thorrific]

57. by saying "Drink the Kool-aid" you are making fun of Jim Jone's beliefs!!!

How dare you insensitvely mock and make fun of the religious beliefs of the late, sincere believers of Jim Jones' People's Temple suicide cult with your callous use of the phrase "drink the Kool-Aid"!

[Thorrific]

56. hey yer makin fun uh mah buhleefs!

hi, you are using contradictory logic by saying "not to ridicule people's faith", and then turning around and calling my cartoon an "animated turd".
just so ya know

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

51. Agree entirely, this is why nobody should nuke-launch authority

to launch nukes unilaterally, in an instant, w/o consulting others. Too often, the guy with has hand on the nuke launch button, as you say, is an apocalyptic nut with few qualms about following through, and it's foolish to entrust him with so much power. There have to be checks on his power here, and the first thing to do is to take our nukes off immediate launch warning, and to steeply reduce our own nuke arsenal.