I am offended by campaign speech in Spanish

[question everything]

On ABC news this evening, several candidates were shown appearing in the southwest, addressing their audience in a broken Spanish.

If the audience was composed of voters, that means they are American citizens, this means they had to show a proficiency in English.

There is a major difference between treating all new citizens as equal and between bending backward.

All over the world, when newcomers join a new society they learn the language. Or, at least, they do not expect their adoptive country to print everything in their language. In California voters pamphlets, drivers manuals, even utility bills are printed in about five languages.

There have always been old immigrants who could not master English and who did not need it, living and working withing their communities of others from the old country. If and when they needed to interact with the outside world of government and bureaucracy, a family member of a friend would act as a translator, would guide them through the maze.

Just think, if we had this way now, it would strengthen the community, instead of demanding that the tax payers shoulder the extra cost.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Foswia]

3. I agree, but i didn't say it because i thought i would be moded [nt]

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Foswia]

57. Ah. We "republicanos " were against the parent poster.

[blondeatlast]

59. Edit: my mistake.

Nothing to see here, move along, please.

[Foswia]

60. ¡Antes que te cases mira lo que haces!

I was replying to a deleted message that was implying something about the parent poster’s political afflation. I did not agree w/ the topic starter.

Follow the posts before you call me a GOPer.

[Foswia]

2. If I can speak spanish why shouldn't i? [nt]

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. Relax. Your grandchildren will teach you, and I'm sure you'll

speak much better Spanish than the candidates.

Bien venidos a America!

[RetroLounge]

5. Fear...

eom

[Dr Fate]

6. They were just trying to relate w/ the audience...n/t

n/t

[jmaier]

7. I get offended

when El Shrubo attempts to communicate with his audience in English.

[janx]

14. Same here. n/t

[diamondsoul]

8. Well then none of them were Kucinich.

Big shocker there.

Do you have the slightest notion how difficult it is for anyone from another country to learn fluent English?? It takes, LITERALLY YEARS! American English and Madarin Chinese are two of the most complicated languages ever created, so sorry if I don't share your offense.

[Bill of Rights]

21. Hungarian and Japanese

are supposed to be the most difficult for English speakers to learn.

I tried learning Japanese...lived there, as a child, for 11 years with my family. I never got past the 3rd level.

[Bonobo]

44. From a Japanese translator:

Nah...it's not that tough. Very logical language. No plurals, gender stuff. regular verb changes. It's only the writing system that is difficult.

BTW, I hate it when I am in Japan and people try to speak to me in English as if they refuse to believe that a Whitey can speak japanese. So I DO understand that, to some, it may feel condescending.

[Shadder]

54. Aah, Engrish!

Gotta love it :)

[Blitz]

49. It took me about a year as a child

My dad picked it up even faster. It took my mom a year and a half. Most non-elderly adults who come to this country pick up decent English within 2 years, so long as they do not segregate themselves in non-English speaking communities. Obviously, people who do not expose themselves to a language don't pick it up.

[incapsulated]

9. *Gets marshmallows to toast over flames* n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

11. Hehe

Hey you! :hi:

[incapsulated]

16. *Passes the bag to bicentennial..*

Hey, you, too! :hi:

[lastknowngood]

10. If your born on this side of the border you are by definition an

American citizen no matter what language you primarily speak. These politicians are only looking silly in the eyes of the Hispanics. They can't speak the language well but at least they try to pander to them. What's difference in that and a blue blood boy from Main saying howdy pardner I'm a cowboy and I'm the prez.

[bicentennial_baby]

12. Actually

I heard that the crowd went wild today in NM when Clark started speaking in Spanish....He's multi-lingual.

[janx]

17. Yep. It's usually considered a form of respect. n/t

[Qutzupalotl]

39. Clark's Spanish is considered excellent

by a native speaker, who was testing him after a rally on CSPAN.

In case anyone doesn't know, he also speaks Russian and French.

[blondeatlast]

41. I speak Spanish well, but am not a native speaker.

"They" don't think you are being ridiculous for trying, the native Spanish speakers I know appreciate anyone's attempt.

I live in Arizona, and I get nothing but goodwill for being able to tranlsate when necessary.

What is sad is that we DON'T teach our children other languages when it easy for them to learn.

In AZ, we got a name for people who get pissed when they hear spanish spoken. It ain't a purty one, either. Starts with "r."

[Cocoa]

13. It's a nice acknowledgement of the Spanish speaking community

people like being addressed in their own language for a change. I wish that Bush would once in a while speak English.

[incapsulated]

18. Ha!

Good one! :)

[cally]

15. The larger issue is when someone

should be able to participate in democracy. I may somewhat agree that it helps most American citizens to know English. I definitely disagree that anyone should be denied access to candidates or participation because of language proficiency.

I also disagree about all over the world that people speak the same language in a country. Look at Mexico. Spanish is the language of government but many do not speak Spanish. It's common in many countries.

[Dogmudgeon]

19. Offended?

"Freedom of Speech" includes speech in non-English languages. It does not take much effort or money to translate a few hundred common documents into Spanish.

Besides, after a few years, most Hispanic immigrants are more fluent at English than many native-born Anglo-Saxons.

The idea that the old immigrants did just fine learning English is a myth. There were literally thousands of documents printed in the languages of the Old Country both by the government and by private organizations.

At one time, the largest newspaper in NYC after the New York Times was a Yiddish newspaper (I think it was called "De Zeit"). It was not uncommon to go for blocks in Little Italy in NYC and see, much less hear, anything in English. In Pennsylvania, whole towns still speak the 18th century version of Plattdeutsch called "Pennsylvania Dutch."

This past summer, I had the occasion to learn elementary Basque. Well, "a lot" of Basques emigrated to the western USA in the late 19th century, and there are many examples of public announcements in California and Nevada printed in Basque. All for an immigrant cohort of less than 20,000!

We "Real Americans" can be profoundly xenophobic. But it should also alert us to our tribal instincts being provoked. But like being afraid of people with black skin or even being afraid of snakes, it's ancient reaction that make no sense in our world today. We're not a tribal species anymore.

--bkl

[revcarol]

20. In New Mexico, Spanish and English are both LEGAL languages.

Ballots are printed in both. Courts are required to provide interpreters, etc. We are proud of our Hispanic heritage, the only state to have a MAJORITY Hispanic population.

...soon other states will join us...

and in a few minutes, I'm going to play Dennis' campaign disc in Spanish.

[blondeatlast]

42. I'm proud of my ability to speak Spanish. I'm a former English teacher, to

It's part of Southwestern culture.

[xultar]

22. Clark speaks spanish because he was commander of the South

American Command thing.

If none of them are married to, or has hispanic family members I would consider it pandering. I understand where you are coming from. Like when candiates quote MLK. Sometimes it makes me CRINGE!

Especially when they butcher the language.


Some guy out of the blue who knew that Clark spoke spanish walked up to Clark in NH and started speaking spanish to him. To his surprise Clark did quite well responding. IT was a surprise and off the cuff and the guy was really impressed!

U WES A

[texasmom]

23. Clark's daughter-in-law, Astrid, is

a Latina...

http://www.clark04.com/hispanic/astrid.html

[kixot]

24. Woah, and she's a joy to look at, too.

Beautiful girl, simply gorgeous.

[dsc]

25. Dean learned his Spanish

while working on a ranch with Cuban emigrees for a year.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. I understand by your post that you have an attitude about it

That says the devil may care for showing respect and acceptance for multi-culturalism, but I don't get how this connects to you being offended.

It makes me wince to see someone putting down appealing to others in their language of origin on a liberal board (you know...big tent..civil rights beyond owning guns and all that bullshit....making democracy available for all citizens and welcoming them to the fold)

It smacks of something...I just can't put my finger on it without risking the alert button being hit on me.
:D

[BurtWorm]

34. I'm picking up some vibes, myself.

"Just think, if we had this way now, it would strengthen the community, instead of demanding that the tax payers shoulder the extra cost."

This statement has a certain aura about it. I can't quite put my finger on it. ;)

[blondeatlast]

43. The closest I can come is --!fascista!

The other "f" word, relating to another popular political message board, doesn't translate in my admittedly limited knowledge.

[Clark Can WIN]

27. Clark speaks four languages

Spanish happens to be one of them.

I'm confused about how utility bills and driver manuals made it into the mix but since you bring it up, I sure would like the driver next to me on the road to fully understand the manual as opposed to just guessing and barely getting by the test with coaching from his cousin. Likewise if some poor little Korean grandma gets some good energy saving tips in her utility bill and she can actually understand them, it benefits us all.

Countries all over the world have signage in two or more languages, Many countries cater to their diverse populations by making official literature available in many languages.

This country never really was English only and it certainly will not be regressing. Would you have been offended if candidate X addressed a group of French Americans near the border with some greetings in French?

Part of a candidates task is to communicate to people. If the candidate is any good, hopefully they will communicate that they CARE about those people. One way to do this, is to demonstrate to them that you are willing to come and learn something about them - not just talk at them. One way to demonstrate that you are willing to learn something about them is to start with their language. It's not everything, and people know that, but it is something.

[TexasPatriot]

28. wow... if a few paragraphs in spanish bug you

imagine what Clark's spanish language website will do

http://www.clark04.com/es/

he's even got a number of his issues papers translated - including the details of his tax plan

some spanish speakers might like to have someone pay attention to them...

[The Zanti Regent]

29. So what?

I was born and raised in Ambridge PA, a melting pot if ever there was one.

Local candidates spoke Italian, Greek, Russian, Polish, German and Serbo-Croatian, and yes they spoke English too and nobody minded...

[Anwen]

30. que?

I don't understand how it is offensive. Personally, I think if they know the language, it's a nice gesture. Ignoring cultural differences is probably more offensive.

[JasonBerry]

31. Mario Cuomo

Mario always has said it is disappointing that Democrats have accepted the multi-lingual nation. He often tells the story of his parents living over their grocery store not knowing english. He says he went off to PS whatever (his neighborhood school) full of Italian kids and the first thing they did was teach them english. He, in turn, went home and taught english to both his mother and father. Their grocery store business boomed. He says if anyone thinks he would have become Governor of New York, etc. without that grade school english immersion is crazy. He says that today, sadly, that same school is Bi-Lingual. He also says that learning english surely didn't cut him off from his culture and doesn't for any other ethnic group. Learning, knowing and using english equals opportunity in the United States. I think Mario makes a strong case.

[question everything]

32. I've always wished that Mario Cuomo were the candidate

I think that his 1984 keynote address during the Democratic convention should be taught in schools.

I am sorry that most people here missed my point. Should not be surprising as we see this often when supporters of different candidates do not hear what the others say.

Mostly, I don't understand the references to "their language." The official language of this country is English. Is anyone having problem with it? Should it be Spanish? or Chinese? Or Yiddish?

I know that learning a foreign language is not easy, especially for older immigrants and I have said so. I know that many can function and be contributing members of our society by using their own language as was common in the lower East Side of Manhattan in the previous century and said so. I don't think that we, as a country should encourage this. There is a difference between discriminating based on race, or sex, or religion, or national origin and between promoting multi lingual in our public life. It is one thing for a private business to hire only bi-lingual workers because this is the type of business, and between public schools demanding that their teachers learn Spanish, conditioning any promotion.

There is a difference between President Kennedy visiting Berlin and talking to the Berliners in their language, and between an American president, or a president wannabe talking to American citizens in the United States in... "their language?"

Here is a letter published today in Southern California. Would any here agree with it?

==========

http://www.dailybulletin.com/Stories/0,1413,203~23144~1931418,00.html

Mexicans have a right to be in California

Regarding the complaint that Mexicans coming to America take jobs and are filling jail cells:

First, the Mexican people have lived in this part of the continent since 13,000 B.C. while other people's ancestors were still back in Europe whining about their diseases and short life span.

When Europeans arrived here in the 1500s, there was no immigration process or borders in America for the white people to apply through, so technically every white person is an illegal alien.

But this didn't stop them from killing the American natives to make room for themselves.

Every Mexican has the right to come here since they are the dispossessed natives. Those who don't like it can go back to Europe where they belong.

Try reading a history book and you will realize that the Southwestern portion of the United States was originally Mexican territory until the Caucasians invaded this land.

The Spanish language was spoken in this country well before English was introduced here.

Every Mexican who arrives here is simply taking back what is rightfully theirs, so accept this and be happy that you are privileged to even be here to begin with.

J.R. CHASCO
Rialto

[Clark Can WIN]

46. Don't completely agree with him, but more than I do you.

:shrug:

[bowens43]

52. English 'official language'???

I don't believe the United States has an 'official language'. If it does , could you please provide a link to the legislation designating english as the official language? I think you're wrong on this one (or maybe I am, it wouldn't be the first time).

[question everything]

64. Um... in what language are the Declaration of Independence and

the Constitution written? In what language are the laws - federal, state and local - are written? If you carry a passport - in what language is it written? Your birth certificate (or naturalization papers)? School graduation papers? This one you may have it bi-lingual, if you went to bi-lingual schools, I suppose.

When John Edwards or John Kerry will take the oath of office next January, in what language will it be?

[bowens43]

68. It doesn't matter what language they are written in.

The United States does NOT have an official language. You seem to be confusing 'most commonly spoken' with 'official'. They are NOT the same thing. The repugs have been trying to pass a bill for awhile now, making English the official language , but luckily, it's gone nowhere.

[JasonBerry]

70. Many states have laws

There are laws in many states that make english the official language. I'm as liberal as the next person here at DU, but I agree with Cuomo -- if you want to get ahead, learn and speak english in America. This is how it is in most all other industrialized countries. In France (even Quebec!) if you use English on a sign -- you get fined. The French are rabid when it comes to language. Assimilation is what this nation is about. Protect your culture but accept that, as an American, the language of our culture (and our commerce) is English.

[bowens43]

71. The poster claimed that English is the official language of the US

it isn't. Language of our culture? The US doesn't have a culture and if we did English wouldn't be it's language. Believe it or not English did not originate in the US. Before long there will be as nearly many Spanish speaking people as there are English speaking people in this country. Perhaps Spanish should be the official language.

[JasonBerry]

73. Well....surprise

Most people by a huge margin - would beg to differ.

[NV1962]

82. When in Rome

yada yada.

Here's news: while you're lingering on Jacques Lang's ill-fated drive to keep the French language "pure" and eliminated barbarisms not sanctioned by the Académie, some two decades have gone by - and in the meantime, you can now learn Breton in Brittany again.

France is doing now what's been done in Spain for a quarter of a century: acknowledge that pride in national / cultural identity is not a "threat" to the larger national identity. When the French football team ("soccer" for the locals in the US) won the World Cup, you bet that everybody felt très français for example. It's a relative thing.

More than anything, it's a refreshing invitation tolearn and relax the gluteus maximus. The continuation and sovereignty of the United States of America is not at stake, by learning to deal with a more diverse and multi-cultural society. Honest.

[NV1962]

76. There's a German language version, published that same year - n/t

[Forkboy]

33. How progressive

:eyes:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Better broken Spanish than bush incoherent redneck.

I'd like to see one of them give a speech in French and really piss off the fascists.

[blondeatlast]

48. Heh, heh. Good one!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. Well, QE, you would have hated NY mayor Fiorello LaGuardia

A great deal of his popularity came from his proficiency in the two major immigrant languages of his day, Italian and Yiddish. Even immigrants who know English find that their native language still touches their emotions better.

I don't see how having utility bills printed in other languages hurts you. Have you ever lived overseas? Well, I've lived in Japan, and there's a lot there that's printed or available in English (and often Chinese and Korean as well), because for the Japanese government, it's more important to spread the information about earthquake preparedness, crime prevention, immigration laws, and tax laws than to get all huffy and say that anyone living there should immediately be able to read the fine print in Japanese.

I would bet that you're a monolingual American who has never studied a foreign language or who did poorly at it. As such, you probably hold the contradictory view that 1) learning foreign languages is too hard for most people to bother with, and 2) immigrants should be able to speak English immediately upon arrival.

If hearing immigrants speak their native language to one another bothers you, let me ask you this. If you retired to Mexico, you might learn Spanish to talk to the Mexicans. Would you speak Spanish with another North American? Think about it.

[question everything]

62. Wrong on all assumptions n/t

[bowens43]

37. I am offended by those who are offended by those who

occasionally give a campaign speech in Spanish. Your rant borders on being xenophobic. Why shouldn't they be addressed in the language in which they are most fluent? Why should they have to speak English? Why shouldn't they be addressed in manner that insures that the candidate is able to make his point? Maybe you should spend a little time learning Spanish so you don't feel such anger. The Spanish speaking population is the fastest growing group in the country. Don't expect it to go away soon.

[HFishbine]

38. Is it really any different

from Edwards saying he can win in the south because of the way he talks?

[kskiska]

40. I've read where Bill Clinton speaks some German

from his college days at Oxford, hitching around Europe.

[sistersofmercy]

45. Que importa!

You obviously don't know your SW history, I would suggest starting with some reading about Santa Fe, NM. I'd be willing to bet some of the Spanish families in NM have been on this continent longer than your family.

[no name no slogan]

47. My great-grandparents spoke no english until age 5

they were raised in households that only spoke Swedish and Norwegian, respectively. They eventually became fluent in English through public schooling, but their parents never did become completely fluent in it.

Back then, some politicians, if they were fluent, would give their speeches in a familiar "local" language of the town: German in Cologne, Czech in New Prague, Polish in NE Minneapolis, or French in Little Canada.

Nowdays, our state website for Dennis Kucinich (www.minnesotaforkucinich.com) has downloadable literature in SEVEN languages spoken locally: Arabic, Hmong, Somali, Spanish, Russian, Vietnamese AND English.

And we're DAMN PROUD of the fact that, instead of isolating non-fluent English speakers, we're reaching out to them.

There's room for everybody here: all races, languages, religions and creeds. And we want to keep it that way.

[nancyharris]

50. Miembro del Congreso Dennis Kucinich

el presidente siguiente de los Estados Unidos de América!

[Desertrose]

51. I say the more languages we speak...the better!

"All over the world, when newcomers join a new society they learn the language. "


yeah, and most other countries learn English in addition to their mother tongue so that we Amurikans don't have to go to the trouble of learning one.


I think the more we know & understand about other cultures, the less threatened we'd be and it would remind us that we are basically all one people on this planet.


Peace
DR

[ithacan]

53. you are wrong

it is not a requirement of American citizenship to know English.

People born in this country whose native language is spanish are still citizens, despite the narrow-minded bigots in this country who cannot deal with the fact that people speak languages other than English.

I think you need to take a look deep within yourself and think about why you are so insecure that you feel anger at hearing another language spoken. It's a sad comment.

[anti-NAFTA]

56. Oh no, people are more educated than me

damn those hispanics with their weird languages. we should be keeping these damn furriners from polluting our culture with their filthy language.

(note the idiocy of xenophobes)

[goodhue]

58. American citizens are not required to show proficiency in English!

I'm not sure why you would think otherwise but it kind of undermines your argument.

[question everything]

63. I should have said naturalized American citizens

have to show proficiency in English before they can become citizens. Trust me, I know.

[DemExpat]

66. I had to show Dutch proficiency to become a dual national Dutch/

American citizen...

DemEx

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. I would never say that people shouldn't learn English

but the original poster was complaining about candidates speaking to crowds in Spanish.

Would you object to a Dutch politician campaigning to a crowd of Dutch citizens of Indonesian descent in Indonesian?

[NV1962]

77. If that politician aspires to woo Moluccans, specifically...

Then it makes sense to address them in their native tongue, as a token of respect, methinks.

Isn't it funny that one candidate makes a (partial) speech in Spanish and... Kaboom?

Now, what if John Edwards were to address members of the Japanese community in fluent Japanese... Would that be a problem?

Or...

Are there other connotations that "just a foreign language" at work here, hm?

I just wonder...

[DemExpat]

80. Now, THAT would be impressive! :-)

Somehow Edwards fluent in Japanese blows my mind....

:wow: :wow: :wow:

DemEx

[NV1962]

61. Lost in translation

From the initial post:

• If and when they needed to interact with the outside world of government and bureaucracy, a family member of a friend would act as a translator, would guide them through the maze.

I'm an interpreter and translator for the school district here, which has over 60,000 students; one in four of them are members of the Latino/Hispanic community. But that's for the whole curriculum, from elementary through high school - looking at elementary schools, that proportion goes up quite a notch.

The use of "available" translators who, from the goodness of their heart, volunteer to help a relative, friend or just happen to be available when help is needed is of course more than welcome, and certainly better than letting people get drowned.

But there's something fundamentally wrong with the assumption that that's good enough, when you're dealing with not an individual, exceptional immigrant, but a very significant proportion of the local community. I work at schools where three out of four students are young Latinos/Hispanics. The thing is, the overwhelming majority of them are pretty much bilingual; they manage to do well in English, thanks to the enthusiasm and relentless dedication of teachers and other school staff, and a well-integrated English as a Second Language (ESL) program.

But that's not where the problem is. The problem is with their parents, of whom many barely speak English. They try, of course: somehow, sometime in between their jobs (many do double, to survive on low wage) which has them leaving home very early, arriving very late...

They'd love to help with homework, in elementary school, if only they understood the language enough... If only they'd understand the subject, in middle and high school - aside from language, there's also the fact that many parents have a less-than-average education background themselves.

Then, there's the tremendous difference between the education system here, and what the rest of the world is accustomed to. That difference is best described by the inclusiveness of the American system: no matter if you have a physical or learning disability, whether you're a native English speaker or just arrived from China, there's a lot of effort put into keeping you in the "regular" system.

Not so in most other places, not so in Europe (where I grew up) and not so in Central and Southern America, either: there, if you don't fit the cookie cutter image, you're either whisked off to the (separate) special ed school system, or you're likely to drop out (and exceedingly unlikely to get a chance at higher education.) Here, students with special ed needs are kept within the regular system as much as possible - which provides a valuable additional lesson: we're all human beings, we all have (and deserve) respect, and we all get a shot at it, as long as we try.

One tragic consequence of the in essence classist architecture of ed systems in other countries is that "special ed" has the connotation of "dumb school." When teachers of a child with special ed needs try to convince parents that their child would benefit from those services, the instante reaction is rejection - they fear that their child grows up with a big "D" tattooed on their forhead.

That is one example of very necessary contextual explanation, that a "helpful" relative or friends usually can't and won't provide. It goes beyond simply "translating the words" - you have to ensure that parents understand what is expected of them, how they can help with homework (and they mostly can!) and how to be full partners in the education of their children.

Another issue is the relevant backdrop of immigration itself.

The USA is not an island. Problems surrounding immigration are neither unique to the country, nor are they a sudden, contemporary problem.

People who come here in search of a better life don't do that because they are a success in their country of origin; whether you look at the recent immigrants of the Latino/Hispanic community in the US or the (relatively) recent arrival of immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries (Turkey, Morrocco, Algeria, and lately many refugees from Afghanistan and Iraq) in the EU, you'll see very similar problems that immigrant communities face:

• Poor education
  
• Low-wage jobs
  
• A tendency to "cocooning" in a more conservative interpretation of their "home" culture
  
• A resulting "split mentality" of the 2nd generation, half in this modern world, half in their (mostly conservative) parents' - which subliminally sends a message that "cheating" is a "necessary evil" (and further contributes to alienation...)
  
• Etc., etc.

These phenomena are "normal" - that is, they occur wherever larger numbers of people emigrate from one country to another, in search of a better life (again: one doesn't normally leave family and country behind because one "feels" like it)

And there are quite a number of issues that are common to other so-called minorities, to one extent or another.

But since this topic is about language I'd like to remind that language isn't just a pile of words tied together with grammar; were that the case, I'd be looking for other work, obsolesced by the wonders of Babelfish (try for yourself with a sample text in English, translate it into another language and then back again to English - always good for a laugh!)

Language is the intellectual vehicle of any culture - a frame for the human universe, which provides different approaches and solutions for life.

Different school system, different mindset, different socio-economic environment, different language... Had enough already?

Next time you throw out similarly facile invitations to just ignore the language barriers and learn to speak English (like the apostles did, as proven in the Bible!) at least think about the larger context of cumulative problems derived from a different heritage.

"Just learn to speak English" doesn't cut it. It's bad enough that the reichwingers and their visceral voices on the airwaves managed to engage on a nation-wide English-only rampage; it's simply intolerable that the current No Child Left Behind "measures of accountability" are in effect deepening the chasm that kids in a bilingual situation have to jump.

For a simple illustration of this last point: the mathematics program is changed, purportedly to ensure that kids don't just learn to do "simple math" (27-16 = ?) but to teach so-called "problem solving skills." A laudable endeavour, but... The problems that are presented have an enormous language component!

Find an 8-year old kid who doesn't speak English very well, and present this problem: 38 - 29 = ?
Meanwhile, answer this problem: Het pretpark Duinrell heeft dit jaar zevenentwintig glijbanen in dienst. Vorig jaar hadden ze er achttien. Hoeveel glijbanen hebben ze de afgelopen winter bijgebouwd?*

What, an eight-year old is smarter than you? Thought so...

As a result, kids that could do very well with the "abstract" math are now failing, not because they don't understand the problem, but because they have problems grasping the meaning of sentences in a foreign language.

There you have a very clear indicator of the extent of stupidity that this whole obsession with English language amounts to.

Instead of whining and bitching about those damn foreigners who speak unintelligbly on the street and in the shops, think about productive ways to engage and pull them into this society - if only, so as to shorten their learning curve, and to shorten the "return on investment" so that they become fully participating citizens.

Offering professional translation and interpretation services and second language learning is not just a matter of a "benevolent cilization" - it's a matter of self-interest.

_____
*This is a translation in Dutch of a "math problem" that is presented in one of the big yearly tests, presumably to assess nation-wide how well kids are doing in math. To me, it looks like an English language test, instead. The problem is essentially 27 - 18 = ?

[DemExpat]

65. Wat een verrassing om Nederlands te zien op DU!

Instead of whining and bitching about those damn foreigners who speak unintelligbly on the street and in the shops, think about productive ways to engage and pull them into this society - if only, so as to shorten their learning curve, and to shorten the "return on investment" so that they become fully participating citizens

I believe that the most productive way to engage and pull newcomers into ANY society is to encourage, push, and help them to learn the language of the culture they live in! This is good for the immigrants,their children, and society as a whole IMO.


Very good post explaining similarities and differences of the US and EU school systems. Although the "class system" of layered education here (The Netherlands) is not so exclusive as the picture you portray - quite a few kids progress from VMBO (MAVO) to any of the tiers of HAVO... from HAVO to VWO or HBO and University.....

It is not such a done deal as I initially thought when my children were going through the system here.
And as with everything in life, there are pros and cons about the school systems in both countries imo. In many ways my children are well-educated and very world savvy - also from their broad education here - but they missed out on American strong points of debate, music, art, and school sports - but I hear that those areas have been much eroded since my school years in the 1960s...

:hi:

DemEx

[NV1962]

72. 't Blijft 'n leuke taal...

I had no problem with the Mammoetwet, which was a first major step towards an integrated co-ed (yup) and integral secondary school system... But almost 36 years later and many subsequent attempts at hacking at it, with gobs of money and bureaucrats thrown into the equation, it's anything but improved.

The Dutch and German systems have a lot in common (not surprising) but one less advertised feature of them is that only 1.5% of their populations have a university (college) degree. As a rather hilarious side-effect (also shared with Germans) you'll see Dutch 4-year college grads printing that "title" on their business cards!

I don't buy the cop-out used by left, center and right that the trade school type curriculums explain the difference. All oversimplifying arguments and well-known caricatures aside, I believe that the education system here in the US really is top-class. One other less advertised fact which applies to many education systems in Europe (certainly not only in NL) is that -- when comparing "academic achievement" of college students -- in Europe, university / college is an avenue open only to the "best and brightest" - the "rest" is either a drop-out, or weeded out at the age of 12 to follow a les "challenging" education path.

That is anything but empowering, and horribly myopic to boot - as are attempts to limit access to higher education "because of the great cost involved."

Management problems shouldn't be allowed to affect the obligation to produce the best equipped citizens for the future.

But, returning to the multiple language issue, and it's eye-opening side-effects: yup, I agree that overall Dutch kids have a better understanding / grasp of "world events" - moreso than their American peers. But then again, let's not forget that the Netherlands is a sovereign nation not much larger than 100 miles wide by 150 miles long... Knowing the name of the neighboring head of state isn't that much of a feat.

Once the EU has become the United States of Europe, you'll see a similar trend towards a self-oriented (myopic) outlook taking over, across the continent.

Goeiemorgen, zo kan 'ie wel weer! ;)

[DemExpat]

79. It is different here...university level here was a great deal tougher

then college level in Texas in the early 70s (personal experience) - depending on what school you went to. Universities here are all at the same level, where in the US the quality range is diverse imo.

University graduates here use the title doctorandus when they have their degree after 4-5 years because this is comparable to a masters or doctorate in the US.

England uses this system of titles too, I believe.

As far as the school system reforms here - I think they have in some ways been a disaster. At my son's highschool the changes were so enormous and "chaotic" that he suffered the consequences, while my daughter missed the big change of the "tweede phase" by a year, thank goodness.

My husband and I agree that the education that our kids got here - one did HAVO and the other Gymnasium - are excellent and far more challenging/extensive than the highschool educations we had in Texas in the 60s. But they missed out on some experiences that we enjoyed in school...

But I do see your point about opennness of the US system that has its very strong points.

And the top-notch Universties there ARE the best in the world IMO.

DemEx

[curse10]

67. I know that Teresa Heinz is fluent in Spanish

and has been stumping for John :-)

I think it's great.

[HereSince1628]

69. Well that shows a lot of tolerance...

One of my grandmothers came to the US in 1894, she never learned more than the English needed to do grocery shopping.

Funny thing though...3 of her sons served in WW2, another served in the merchant marine...4 of her grandsons served in Vietnam, 2 of her great grandsons served in Iraq War 1.

[BruinAlum]

74. Why would you want to exclude an entire demographic of voters?

By the way, aren't these citizens tax payers too?

I don't think I care for your attitude. There's a word for this, but I don't think I can use it here.

[Bonobo]

78. koko ni nihongo wo shaberu hito ga inai no?

[question everything]

84. If this is an attempt to bypass the "rules" of posting

by using a language that most here do not understand - I have lived in several non-English speaking countries - then I think that this is a cowardly action.

[ithacan]

86. boy you really are paranoid aren't you

thus confirming suspicions...

[Hell Hath No Fury]

81. "Offended"?

That's an extreme response to a non-issue.

Living in San Francisco I am exposed to folks from dozens of other cultures. Many of them speak both English and their native tongue. Many others are still in the process of mastering their English skills.

Considering the complexity of some of those forms you mentioned -- forms that I, a native born person, can have trouble understanding fully -- I find it worthwhile to make sure readers have materials that make it the most comprehensive to them. And if that means making it available in other languages, so be it.

[Astarho]

83. National and linguistic boundries rarely line up

Almost every country in the world has minority languages whether immigrant or indigenous. Many politicians have learned that speaking to populations in their own language goes an extra mile to get their vote. Is that pandering? Sometimes, but many people in that population like being addressed in their native language. It shows respect.

I know someone on the Navajo reservation who when trying to get a candidate to appear at one of their events gave a short list of Navajo phrases for said candidate to use in their speech. Would that be offensive too?

As for the tax payer shouldering the cost, I wonder if it costs more to print all this information in the other languages or to pay for all the accidents and other problems that happen because people did not understand.

[opihimoimoi]

85. Com'n Braddahs and Sistahs, mo bettah we all learn a little

cultah from many regions of da planet. We get mo fun dat way. Nahting wrong wit some fun.

Come, we go eat Ono Food at Ono's. Laulau an Poi with one akule iz a winnah.

[question everything]

87. How's the Candidates' Spanish? Hard to Say. - Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47765-2004Jan25.html

Howard Dean was outraged. Worse, he was outraged en español. His eyebrows arching, his finger jabbing the air, his voice dripping with contempt, he stirred his Latino audience by attacking President Bush for what he'd done to nosotros ingresos.

That is, to "us incomes."

(snip)

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, who grew up in Mexico City, attended the debates. Asked to rate the candidates' Spanish, he snickered. Richardson gave a "passable C" to Dean and Sen. John Kerry, who spoke choppy but identifiable Spanish. Sen. Joe Lieberman, he noted, sprinkled his English with both Yiddish and Spanish, sometimes both at once. ("Viva chutzpah!")

And Dennis Kucinich? "D-minus," Richardson declared cheerfully.

(snip)

Some have mocked the candidates' Spanish. One Web site critical of Democrats, IowaPresidentialWatch.com, featured a cartoon with three sombrero-wearing pols: Jose Lieberman, Doctore Dean and El Kucinich. "We're Hispanic!" it was titled. And on his "Daily Show," Jon Stewart showed a clip of Lieberman speaking Spanish.

(snip)

A few years ago, then House speaker Newt Gingrich released a statement marking the holiday of Cinco de Mayo; in the statement he literally translated his title as "Hablador." The problem: Hablador isn't "speaker," at least not the kind the Republican congressman had in mind.

According to the authoritative New Revised Velazquez Spanish and English Dictionary, an hablador is "an impudent prattler, a trifling talker, a gabbler, a prattler, a chattering fellow."