Congressional Voting: Kerry Voted for Iraq War & Kucinich Voted Anti-Choic

[David Zephyr]

Is it fair for Kucinich to accuse Kerry of voting for the war and then trying to appear against it later? I ask this because this weekend, I reflected on how Congressman Kucinich in nearly every, if not all debates, has correctly stated that he, of all the Democratic presidential candidates, is the only one who voted against the Iraqi War Resolution and in doing so, has attempted to shame his congressional colleagues, specifically John Kerry, John Edwards, Joe Lieberman and even Dick Gephardt, who has now dropped out of the race.

But let's break down that criticism, shall we?

Kucinich's point is really not effective against Joe Lieberman, who to his great credit, has never backed away from that vote. Lieberman has stood by that vote without wavering or pandering to public opinion...perhaps to his own political detriment.

Continuing with this analysis, with regards to Dick Gephardt, who was in those early debates, Kucinich's charge also falls flat, for Gephardt also stood by his vote for the IWR, albeit not with the same fervor as did Lieberman.

John Edwards has been a bit more difficult to pin down on the issue, having last week gone out of his way in the South Carolina debate to state that Bush had not "exaggerated the threat" of Saddam Hussein. And yet, Edwards did vote against the $87 Billion for additional funding of the War.

So, it would seem that in ballyhooing his sole anti-war vote amongst the presidential contenders, Kucinich was singling out John Kerry, who voted for the War, but then has spent the last year clarifying and justifying that vote...something Joe Lieberman has called "waffling" over and over.

Still, Dennis Kucinich, of all of the Democratic presidential contenders, has the worst pro-choice voting record. In fact, he has one of the worst records regarding a woman's right to choose of all Democrats in congress. And yet, just as he was preparing to announce his intention to enter the presidential race, he suddenly declared that he would now stand with women in protecting their reproductive rights.

Since a woman's right to choose has been a non-negotiable plank in the Democratic National Party's platform for decades, Kucinich's last minute conversion could look very opportunistic if the timing and motivation are inspected simultaneously. And yet, I welcomed with enthusiasm, at the time, Kucinich's conversion on this issue and posted so here at the DU.

Dennis Kucinich, who is a good man and who certainly articulates my views about the IRW, the Patriot Act and for a national, single-payer, not-for-profit healthcare program, should not feel too smug about pointing to the great discrepancy between Kerry's vote for the IWR and his statements afterward, for the same standard then would have to be fairly applied to the great discouraging between Kucinich's voting record about a woman's right to choose with his statements now afterward.

[redqueen]

1. Inaccurate

"just as he was preparing to announce his intention to enter the presidential race"

Wrong. Try a year plus beforehand.

Also, he didn't just decide to run for pres, he was drafted. Unlike others. :)

[THUNDER HANDS]

2. that always confused me about him

Is Kucinich really religious or something? Why was he pro-life for so many years?

[David Zephyr]

3. Yes.

To Kerry's credit, he could have hammered back at Kucinich on this, but did not.

[vision]

49. How could Kerry have hammered him?

Dennis has never denigned his past votes and has explained how over time his position has changed. He has come to realize that he was probably wrong. Has Kerry admited that he was probably wrong?

This is the difference. Dennis admits and learns from his mistakes. He takes ownership of them.

Has Kerry done the same about NCLB, Iraq, Patriot Act, etc?

[redqueen]

56. Kerry won't admit he was wrong about NCLB, IWR, WMDs, Patriot, etc.

There is no way he could 'hammer' Kucinich about anything, and he knows it.

[redqueen]

4. You don't have to be really religious to be pro-life

Although I believe his stance was related to his beliefs, mine is more related to a respect for all life.

[Cheswick2.0]

23. A respect for all life

DK voted for the "PBA" ban just recently (right?). What that says to me is he has a lack of respect for the life of the woman who is pregnant since the only time women have late term abortions is due to health problems.
I truly dispise this Authoritarian Social Conservative side of Dennis Kucinich.

[snoochie]

34. No, he didn't

He voted against the PBA ban just recently.

What this thread says to me is that nobody is reading anything about Dennis Kucinich.

:(

I truly love Dennis Kucinich. I hope more people educate themselves about his positions before they decide whom to vote for in their primaries.

[rucky]

5. A nice Catholic boy

who put aside his personal views for the freedom for women to choose. It's a damn good stance to take on a whopper of a wedge issue like that one.

[David Zephyr]

6. I Praised Kucinich For This At the Time.

And I'm glad he was able to come to do this.

[corporatewhore]

7. I dont like this about DK butits more than IWR that kerry waffels on

recently i heard him give a bunch a hot air about trade coming from mr.NAFTA/WTO/GATT

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Two points about it , David

He voted in the manner his district would have wanted him to even if I vehemently disagree with it.

If he is anti-war and anti-abortion (even if I disagree with the latter) he is, in his own mind (not mine) being morally consistent.

I'm going to vote for him on super tuesday.

He has committed to strengthening a progressive caucus within the party. That is enough for me to show some numbers behind him.

I believe women and gays will be better off when progressives have a stronger voice.

I forgive both of them for their errors (yes even BIG ones) in the past as long as their future warrants it.
In both cases, I believe it will.

on edit: Sorry..as to your point..what he does to represent his district is distinct from the wishes of the BROAD demographic of his party so it is not the same thing as the war vote issue.

[dsc]

31. I live out here

and that is a tough case to make. His district is probably somewhat more prolife than most Democratic ones but it isn't the overwhelmingly pro life district that supporters of his would like you to believe. No major city in this district has a pro life mayor. None of the democratic state reps in this district are pro life. And only one of the Republican one is. It is no pro life bastion.

[blm]

9. Dennis was NOT planning to run for president. he was DRAFTED to run by

antiwar activists who saw through Dean's FALSE antiwar rhetoric.

[goodhue]

12. DK was drafted to run but . . .

it had nothing to do with Dean.
Draft Kucinich movement began well before any antiwar rhetoric by Dean, false or otherwise.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. oh bull

Dk was no more drafted than Clark. If I were a Kerry supporter the last thing I would do is talk about someone else FALSE anti-war rhetoric. KopyKat Kerry still can't define where he stands on the war.

[Nederland]

60. Drafted?

I don't really understand how this "drafting" thing works? Was there a new law passed? Was DK "drafted" into running for President just like millions of Americans men got drafted into Vietnam? Does DK not actually want to run for President? Perhaps he is only running because if he doesn't he'll be accused of "dodging the draft".

This whole "drafted" thing is ridiculous. Its actually very simple: people who don't want to be President don't run for President.

[rucky]

10. Your logic falls flat

being consistently opposed to the war puts him in an excellent position to debate the merits of the war with Lieberman, Gep, Edwards...and you forgot to mention BUSH.

Nobody else can effectively debate * on the war - maybe Dean, Clark & Sharpton - but their opposition isn't on record in the form of a vote, like DK's is.

[David Zephyr]

11. You Missed My Point.

I appreciate your quick defense of Kucinch. My post makes it clear that the Congressman has the clearest record on not just the war, but the Patriot Act as well. Hands down. I agree with you.

The point is that while his consistent opposition to the war "puts him in an excellent position to debate the merits of the war" with the other Democratic candidates, his trumpeting the consistency of his votes with his voice does fly in face of his votes against a woman's right to choose with his voice. That's all.

Kerry could have hammered back at Kucinich on this and obviously chose not to do so. Think about it.

[rucky]

15. I see. Kerry doesn't want to get into an "I'm more liberal than you"

contest, when he knows what Rove is going to be hurling at him.

[Terwilliger]

16. there's no reason for Kerry to attack Kucinich over his abortion stance

in fact, there's no reason for Kerry to attack Kucinich at all

[corporatewhore]

13. Kucinich admits he was wrong Kerry does not!!!!!big diff

[David Zephyr]

14. Well, There You Do Have a Salient Point, Cororatewhore.

Perhaps, Kerry might learn something from Dennis here.

[Hippo_Tron]

17. So if John Kerry to admit he were wrong, how would you respond?

Because I do believe he will do so if he is nominated.

[David Zephyr]

18. I've Said Here All Along That It Would Be Enough For Me, Hippo_Tron.

I do appreciate you asking this question.

[corporatewhore]

19. hed have to say he was wrong about NAFTA/GATT/WTO and change

his policies towards freetrade and and healthcare and israel/palestine to get myvote

[rucky]

20. Dennis Kucinich is still God, right?

even though you changed yer sig line.

[corporatewhore]

26. yep

[justinpower]

21. I could be wrong but...

I dont think DK really goes around "accusing" Kerry of voting IWR. He rightly states that he is the only candidate that voted against it. I have not seen Dennis attack anyone in particular except Dean, and that was for other issues. Could be i am just not seeing it though. If you had a link or something or even a quote that would be cool. I just think the other candidates get defensive when DK speaks even though he doesnt really level anything at anyone. As for his decision to support a womans reproductive rights, it is well documented at his sight www.kucinich.com . He still feels strongly that abortion is wrong, but hopes to build a society where people are better educated when it comes to sex, and less unwanted pregnancies would occur, but a womans right to choose would exist. While it certainly is a change to the way he voted in the past, there is more to it than a change for any short term political gain.

[buddhamama]

22. hello David,

i'd to add my voice of support and clarification of Dennis and, where i see Kerry falls short.

Dennis changed his thinking on abortion long before (over a year before) his decision to enter the race. I disagreed with his stance obviously, but, the one thing that as always stood out about Dennis' position on abortion was his respect for life; all life, David.
He has consistently championed Human Rights/Civil Rights, Labor, Fair Trade, Health-care, Environment, Education, etc., etc.(i'll shorten the list so we're both not here the entire night) Unlike Republicans, the Man truly believes in respecting the Lives of Everyone, he is not a hypocrite.

His anti-war stance on Iraq is also consistent with his respect for Life. With Dennis, there are no circumstances where the desire for money and resources should drive us into a war, where thousands of innocent people will be, and have been killed.

The One major issue i have with Kerry and his war vote; of all the candidates he should have known. He was in Viet Nam, saw the brutality and destruction. And, maybe more than most, should have remembered the LIES that brought us into that war. I find that deeply troubling! (and with this illegitimate pResident no less) I do not feel with comfortable with His flip-flop. I think it is he, not Dennis, who has changed his tune for political Presidential reasons.

:hi:

[David Zephyr]

24. I'm Very Comfortable With Kucinch's Stand Now On Choice.

And have posted so. :hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

27. Hi David

I used to think DK's stand on abortion and his change of heart was sincere. After his vote swapping scheme in Iowa I realized he was just as much "politician" as anyone else. Now it occures to me, that with his vote for the "PBA" ban he is still anti-choice at heart and doesn't "get it".

Kerry was already plannning on running when he voted for the IWR and there is nothing he or anyone can say that will convince me he didn't vote the way he did for political reasons. I knew the IWR was a formality to promote bush's war and so did Kerry.

If that was Kerry's only bad vote it would be easier to pass by. But we are talking NCLB and the Patriot act and we are also talking not showing up 70% of the time this past year and missing votes on major legislation he could have helped out on if he had been willing to spend a little of his political capital.

[David Zephyr]

29. It's An Interesting Thing, Isn't It? Votes Actually Are Recorded.

And "hi" right back to you, Cheswick!

[KoKo]

32. Nevermind.....post deleted by author.

[diamondsoul]

38. And still more half truths about Kucinich.

"I used to think DK's stand on abortion and his change of heart was sincere. After his vote swapping scheme in Iowa I realized he was just as much "politician" as anyone else. Now it occures to me, that with his vote for the "PBA" ban he is still anti-choice at heart and doesn't "get it"."

Ahem. This "vote swapping scheme" as you call it is a time honored tradition at the Iowa Caucuses, as you've been told repeatedly. It's common praqctice for the lower polling candidates to help each other with a litle boost at the beginning of the primary season, as again you been repeatedly told. He's a "politician" says CW with a sneer....um, well YEAH! What else would you call someone with a career in politics and winning elections?! Pssst....Newsflash, Howard Dean is a "politician"{insert sneering tone here} too, just in case you hadn't noticed.

Furthermore, you've been told in at least one other place Kucinich voted AGAINST the most recent PBA ban which was passed. Kucinich voted against even HEARING the PBA Ban Act of 2003!

http://capwiz.com/c-span/issues/votes/?votenum=236&chamber=H&congress=1081&tally=1

Voted against the bill here

http://capwiz.com/c-span/issues/votes/?votenum=530&chamber=H&congress=1081&tally=1

And again here-

http://capwiz.com/c-span/issues/votes/?votenum=242&chamber=H&congress=1081&tally=1

And here he voted to recommit to comittee with instructions to amend for life and health of mother exceptions.

http://capwiz.com/c-span/issues/votes/?votenum=241&chamber=H&congress=1081&tally=1

His LAST PL vote occurred in Sept. of 2001, thanks. There was NO talk of him running for Pres at that time, and the Draft Kucinich movement had barely begun when he voted PC for the first time in March of 2002. There's a 6 month break between abortion legislation in there, plenty of time for him to have spoken with hundreds of women and reconsidered the implications of that legislation.

Please do your credibility a favor and stop twisting facts to suit yourself.

Side note to David- yes indeed, votes ARE recorded. Do everyone a favor, please and look them up before you agree with false information.

[David Zephyr]

40. I Didn't Mention the PBA. You're Infer Incorrectly.

Show me where I mentioned that. I didn't.

My reference is to his votes prior to the last 12 months which my thread indicates.

Dennis was very, very anti-choice.

I am not slamming Kucinich. You should read my thread.

I honor and salute his votes against the War and Patriot Act and say clearly that I take him at his word at his change of heart with regards to protect a woman's reproductive choices federally.

But, his voting record prior to that is still there.

[diamondsoul]

41. My apologies.

You appeared from my reading to be agreeing with what the other poster had said, which I've shown was inaccurate.

Unfortunately, as I also pointed out, his PL votes stopped in Sept. of 2001, not in the last 12 months. It's been over 24 months since his last anti-choice vote, and might I add that was the one issue that gave me pause when I began looking at Kucinich as my chosen candidate. I read transcripts of his responses when asked to explan the change of position and found them all articulate and clear. Combining that with his own college age daughter and information she doubtless has shared with him about the risks for women, it's not at all implausible that he reviewed his position and found it more dangerous than beneficial to humanity over all.

He's shown himself to be a man of integrity, open to new information and new perspectives on an issue, and capable of considering the implications on those most likely to be placed in harms way by the issue in question. That is the source of my respect and acceptance for his change in position. There was NO political motivation there when he made that transition.

[David Zephyr]

43. Accepted.

I take Dennis now at his word. I've said that for over a year now here with regards to the issue of choice.

A woman's right to choose is not negotiable with me. At all.

Making war is also a non-negotiable issue with me.

Civil liberites...the same.

[mountebank]

42. Considerably weakened argument....

If it nows stands as "his voting record is still there." I for one am not prepared to argue against this supposition. Kerry's record is still there too, and he's still somehow defending it. It's one thing to explain your past positions, your rationale, etc.; it's another to continue to defend them, or simply not address them substantively.

FYI. Someone else was talking about the PBA....

[David Zephyr]

44. You Are Making My Point.

Kucinich was big enough to grow and make a courageous change with regards to protecting women in this country from religious fanatics and male domination and governmental intrusion into their lives

John Kerry could follow Kucinich's example and renounce the Patriot Act and his voting for the War in Iraq.

I'm on your side. :hi:

[mountebank]

55. Let's agree to agree, shall we?

Sorry - argumentative mode is hard to break out of....

[LWolf]

39. The first time might be an honest error.

The second time in the same thread is not.

Dennis Kucinich did not vote for the PBA ban. Check the voting record.

I understand that you don't care for Congressman Kucinich. You've expressed that quite clearly numerous times. A simple request here:

Please, if you feel the need to justify your preferences, do it truthfully.

[MMT]

45. I think if someone wants to search the archives, Cheswick

they'll find evidence that you thought no such thing as you claim here:

"I used to think DK's stand on abortion and his change of heart was sincere. After his vote swapping scheme in Iowa I realized he was just as much "politician" as anyone else."

[Dhalgren]

57. Dennis voted AGAINST the PBA.

[REP]

28. It Was Opportunistic and Cravenly So

I still do not understand Kucinich's 'conversion;' outside expedience. If he truly is a follower of the "seamless cloth" school of all life being sacred, did it stop being so when it came time for him to tun for national office? If he is so deeply devoted to his faith, how can he divorce twice despite the teachings of his faith but not support a major plank of his party's platform until it suits his needs?

Outside DU, those who have heard of Kucinich no longer think he is credible. Those who think humans rights are women's rights never trusted him, and now his so-called pro-life allies do not trust him. I cannot blame them - if he'll sell out his self-professed deeply-held views of the sanctity of life, what else will he abandon?

Kerry voted for the IWR, but did not to my knowledge claim he did so because he was compelled by his morals and religion. Kucinich spent most of his career voting with Henry Hyde and told us he did so out of his faith and morals - until they didn't matter. Don't get me wrong; I don't care if he stops voting anti-abortion because it's expedient or because he really has reconciled it with his faith; I still can't trust him. I find Kerry far less suspect.

[mountebank]

36. Thank God Kerry doesn't vote based on morals!

God forbid someone would vote his conscience, and that one's concience can evolve, especially if one is open-minded and rational. Well, that's how the Washington politicians get you. When, like Kerry, you base none of your positions on morality and conscience, then no one can ever hold it against you one way or the other. All your actions disappear into a fog of uncertainty and hot air.

As far as I can tell, Kucinich owned up to his position on abortion, his conversion to pro-choice, and he's given a pretty articulate - and in my estimatation - credible explanation for it.

And to point out a rather unsightly hole in your logic: if all right-wingers, let's say, woke up tomorrow, saw the error of their ways, and became liberals, you'd still berate them and consider them untrustworthy for betraying their former "supposed deeply-held views." I.e. no one can change, no one can evolve. What a sad world that would be.

Does REP stand for Tim Russert?

[MMT]

48. You must have seen that error corrected a dozen times or more

but you continue to put out the same misinformation. You don't like Dennis? Fine. But for your own sake, be truthful.

[liberty rising]

30. Dennis and Choice

To compare Kucinich's change of record, change of heart
regarding women's reproductive rights and the war in Iraq is
an irrational analogy.

The issue of abortion is a personal, private, individual and
very complicated matter. When he came to terms with his
evolution regarding the issue, he voted accordingly--check the
last congressional vote.  It is not an issue of national
security, it is not an issue of world dominance and
aggression--it is a privacy issue and a health rights issue
for women.  

Invading another country, without provocation, without
international support, is quite another matter. It is an issue
of domestic and world concern.  Kucinich, as he always has and
does, took a brave and solitary stance...the war rages on, and
it seems to me that now that more people are finally catching
on to the reality of this war--no WMD's, no connection to
9/11, connections to major defense contracts--assertions
Kucinich has made all along, now, it is the other candidates
who are jumping into DK's corner--because it's safe to do so,
because the tide of public opinion has is turning 

Kucinich was speaking out against the war long before it was
popular, he stood his ground and yes, that kind of bravery is
rare...why shouldn't he point it out every chance he gets? 


   

[David Zephyr]

33. I Disagree.

If Congressman Kucinich had a "personal and private problem" with abortion rights, that's fine with me.

But when he voted for federal laws over and over again to deny an American woman her rights, then he was the one NOT making it a private, personal matter, but rather a public intrusion into her life.

Forcing women to have babies, even if it means jeopardizing their lives, is tantamount to, yes, making war on women.

Sorry, we disagree on this.

I support Dennis' brave position on the War in Iraq and the Patriot Act. I also support his growth into changing his position on a woman's right to choose. Still, the public long history of his voting record (which he's now chosen to reject with regards to Choice) was simply wrong.

[liberty rising]

62. Voting Record: wrong or right?

Voting records aren't wrong or right, they are what they are. And Kucinich has always voted according to what he thought was right at the time.

People tend to evolve and change throughout their lives, and it's no surprise that Kucinich would be slammed for his change of opinion regarding a woman's right to choose. The issue couldn't be any more polarizing.

Also, his evolution on this issue, reflected by his voting record, began long before he was drafted to run for president.

Actually, David, I am pro-choice, but i can understand how an individual, especially one whose childhood roots are deeply tied to the Roman Catholic Church, (as in the case of Kucinich), could grapple with this issue for years, even decades.

Kucinich's voting record has always reflected what is in his heart..he seeks out knowledge and understanding--he has never wavered from his convictions, nor has he followed the path of the trend du jour.

Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate with a lock on true grit...he is the only candidate who has not ever profited from his service to others...he is the only candidate with the guts and courage to speak out when it was detrimental to do so...he is the only candidate whose human rights ideals, whose actions, whose actual words, are being lifted by the other candidates.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LWolf]

54. 3rd time in the same thread.

You are repeating a falsehood, Cheswick. It has been pointed out to you in:

posts # 34, 38, and 39.

I have to ask....

Is dishonesty ok when it makes your point? And does that then make your point dishonest?

[snoochie]

35. Nonsense

Kerry recklessly gave bush the authority to wage an illegal preventive war against Iraq. He did so knowing full well that the WMD threat was nothing more than trumped up evidence and that Iraq was no threat.

Kucinich, on the other hand, took a brave, principled stance (regardless of what kind of 'plank' it is, some of us disagree and will no matter what justifications are used - killing is killing), even though it meant that single-issue people would give him hell.

I admire him for having the courage to stand up for the unborn, even though it means that 'good liberals' will crucify him.

I also seem to be nearly alone in recognizing that Kucinich's votes on abortion-related matters stopped (he started voting 'present') a while before he was DRAFTED to run for president.

He did not decide that he should run, people heard his "Prayer for America" speech and BEGGED him to run.

This thread and some of the comments on it are sad.

[mountebank]

37. Good response! n/t

[Dhalgren]

61. I second that praise!

[spooky3]

46. Edwards did NOT say what you claim.

The question, posed to Kerry, asked about exaggerating the threat of TERRORISM not of Saddam Hussein. When Edwards added in his comments to Kerry's, he did NOT talk about Saddam Hussein. He referred to the threat of terrorism, and referred to his concern for the people who died in New York. Please check the transcript at W. Post.com and the article in the Post the next day if you doubt it.

[katieforeman]

59. Thanks for clarifying Edwards statement

Edwards is the one who will beat Bush because he doesn't have the consistency problems of Kerry or Clark.

[genius]

47. Kucinich is just accurately stating the record.

Kucinich's liberalization of his position of choice is a process he's proud of. Now he's the most liberal of all candidates on the choice issue. But he doesn't hide his record on SPENDING ISSUES regarding choice. His record just reflects that a long time ago he was concerned about public funding of abortions.

[genius]

51. Dennis is now the most pro-choice of the candidates.

Personally I think that virtually every good person has issues with abortions. I think abortions are very bad things. But I don't want any limitations because young girls used to die from illegal abortions and that was a real tragedy. What someone else does with their own body is their own business. Dennis's issue before he became more liberal was who should pay for the abortion. He is now extremely liberal on this issue and we should credit him for his current position rather than attack him.

[MMT]

52. Actually, that's one of the things I really appreciate about him

He doesn't try to re-write his history. He simply says "I used to believe X, but I've thought about it more and now I believe Y. And these are the factors that changed my mind."

He knows that errare humanum est, and that being mistaken is not the same as being evil. That seems to me to be an important understanding for a leader to have!

[eridani]

63. Dennis is the bridge--

--between people who are sincerely pro-life (for reasons other than keeping women barefoot and pregnant) and the general left pro-choice people. Who better to explain why taking women's moral agency away from them is not the way to fewer abortions, and that social support of families and living wage jobs is?

[JVS]

50. Both attacks are fair

However there is the issue of credibility of the new position. Kerry constantly alters and ammends his position on IRW, while Kucinich has held a consistent view of abortion for a longer time. In my book this makes Kucinich's stance more credible, since we still don't know what Kerry's stance will be from one day to the next.

[Desertrose]

58. How about this..which vote cost more in lives? Dennis or Kerry?

Which voting stance affected the entire US more...
womens's choice or war?

Please don't get me wrong...I am as pro-choice as anyone, but when you boil it down to impact...which vote affected more lives? a vote to send our troops into war, to occupy another country, to kill many innocents and destroy a country....??

Dennis has realized that only a woman should have a say over her body...and that war for lies & profit is wrong.

Just my thoughts...all things in balance.

Peace
DR

typoedit