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The primary system does not work...it needs changing...

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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 05:10 PM
Original message
The primary system does not work...it needs changing...
It has produced only one winning candidate in 28 years.
I am not sure what to do. Here are the problems I see.

Iowa and New Hampshire have too much importance.
There isn't enough focus on which states that will
win the General election.
Image and exposure of the candidates is far too influenced
by the media and its own agenda.
It seems random and haphazard, there are no guidelines
or standards for candidates.
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DjTj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Huh?

It has produced only one winning candidate in 28 years.


Haven't all candidates who have won the Presidency won the primaries first?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. lol, that's what I was gonna say...
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pmbryant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. One winning candidate in 28 years?
Let's examine that premise:

1976: Carter ... won
1980: Carter (incumbent) ... lost
1984: Mondale ... lost
1988: Dukakis ... lost
1992: Clinton ... won
1996: Clinton (incumbent) ... won
2000: Gore ... won (stolen)
2004: ? ... ?


Of the 5 non-incumbent races that primaries chose the candidate (the non-incumbent races are the only really competitive ones), Dems won 2 of them outright. And they really won 3. 60% success rate. The only real losses were in 1984 and 1988.

So no doubt there is plenty to criticize about the current primary setup, but arguing that is doesn't produce winning candidates doesn't appear to be a valid criticism.

--Peter
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. advice...read and contemplate my signature line...
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sure it works, you may not like the results,
but there are results. We just got beat in the GE. (please, no comments about election 2000, we may have won the popular vote, we may have won Florida, * is still in the WH = We got beat).

Why should winning Iowa an NH set the course of the entire primary race? these are two small, mainly white states with few elctoral votes or delegates. Keep giving your money to yYOUR guy. Write him to encourage and support him and urge him to keep in the race. Preach to your friends. Volunteer.




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nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Each party is free to run their primaries as they choose
Neither party will ever buck the Iowa /New Hampshire as first caucus and first primary because that party would never win an election local or national in that state for many years. That’s how ticked off the people would be. This is an enormous business for these states which brings in millions of dollars to a very local economy. Any party that would dare to challenge it would be run out of the state on a rail.
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Tim_in_HK Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. One thing I would like to see
in the primaries is a cut off in polling a certain number of days before an election . . . say 4 days, 5 days, whatever. I think this would reduce the whole momentum affect and also really push candidates to continue with their message, with a decline in the sense of 'inevitablity' for one particular candidate.

Obviously if an election looked like it was a blowout, the above points wouldn't matter. But it wouldn't hurt . . .
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nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. If only we didn’t have
that pesky 1st Amendment to the Constitution
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Tim_in_HK Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I know!!
;-)
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. The real issues are twofold: the silly meet and greet thing
in Iowa and New Hampshire, and media control over the whole process.

Candidates have to go to Iowa and NH and hang out and meet people and so on, and that's great; however the reality is that campaigns are decided by news coverage, even in Iowa and New Hampshire, and so all that meeting and greeting turns out to be nothing more than a ticket punching affair. If campaigns are going to be decided by broadcast media, which they are now almost exclusively, then play-acting about chili feeds and pancake breakfasts and the like is simply a waste of time and money (except to the extent that the candidates get TV air time from it), and also has the potential to nominate a crappy candidate. Kerry and Dean are both essentially local boys in New Hampshire, but their 'strong' finishes there are trumpeted by the media anyway, so you have two leading candidates from an area, New England, who have no native appeal in the South, when it is crucial that this party has someone who can at least threaten to compete in the South.

The second issue is that the media have far too much control over the whole process. I do phone work for my candidate locally, and the number of people I talk to over the phone who say things like, 'I was for Dean, but now I'm liking Kerry more and more' is frightening: Dean used to get all the positive attention, while Kerry was described as an inept bumbler; Now it's Kerry and Edwards who get the attention, and they're also the ones who people end up 'liking.' When I drill down on them, I almost invariably discover that the only source of 'news' these folks rely on is TV, so whoever the hot candidate is at the moment, whoever is getting the coverage, is who they are for. I used to sell for a living, and I was good at it, and now I manage and train people who sell for a living, and I'm good at that: I know how to persuade people. But there's nothing I can say or do that has anywhere near the impact on these people as what they hear Peter Jennings or some other talking head say. They are TV zombies. So the smart candidate should run their campaign with both eyes on the media, not the public (I believe Clinton has said this as well) -- which leads to a perversion of democracy, as the media shape the candidates and their message to suit their own needs and perceptions.

The real tragedy of this year's primary is not that the third-most electable candidate is likely to be the nominee; it's that the tremendous enthusiasm and passion thet coalesced around the Dean campaign was wasted on Dean, someone who never had a clear picture of what to do besides wring money from his followers. The Dean campaign really could have represented a shift in the electoral system, using the internet to bypass and control the media as a means of reaching the public with a relatively unfiltered message, but it's too late now, and without an overhaul of the primary system, we're going to continue seeing problems pop up. I'm a black, transplanted Californian living in Arizona who doesn't watch TV. Yet I have my candidates chosen for me by white couch potatoes living in the midwest and northeast, who get their news almost entirely from 30 minute evening news shows. Somehow it doesn't seem right, especially when you consider the quality of the people who have come forward as the frontrunners in the race. To be sure, every primary doesn;t turn out like this, but the system needs improvement.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
11. Instant Runoff Voting
Shift from caucuses to primaries across the board (that whole secret ballot thing), but keep the one good thing from caucuses "run-off" vote redistribution.

Also, polling *would* be tough to squelch (as someone posted, due to that pesky 1st amendment thing), but something could be done to either enforce equal media coverage -- or provide it. (Free airtime for all candidates on radio and TV during elections.)

The polls aren't necessarily the real problem. It's the fact that the media ignores those not fairing well in the opinion polls, insuring a lack of exposure and solidification of poll opinions.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. The media also seems to
deliberately ignore some candidates who are polling well, if they don't happen to suit the agenda of the media owners. At least it seems that way to me.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. No question that it's not very democratic or Democratic.
It's in need of an overhaul. I've never lived in a state where my vote meant anything in the primary, because my state's primary always came far too late. This feels incredibly disenfranchising.

Something has to change.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
13. I agree
Iowa and NH have far too much influence, and they tend to pick candidates that are unelectable in the GE's. I think it's interesting that the only electable Dem. to come out of the primary process in the last quarter century lost in both Iowa and NH. I really hope the party will begin to reexamine the way the primary system is structured. I don't see it producing an electable candidate this time around either. (I would be overjoyed to be proven wrong.)
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
15. Here's my simple idea
This insanity we have now with two states that are laughably unrepresentative of the US voting population having such an absurd amount of influence on the primaries has got to go.

I would do at least this: replace Iowa and NH with a one day, four State primary. This would include States from every region; North, South, East and West. I would also suggest that the choices of States change by election cycle so that no single state has permanent undue influence on the primaries.


After this vote there would be at least a month until the next votes are cast. This would allow everyone time to have a serious re-examination of the candidates. The problem we have now is that the majority of primary voters simply do not pay attention until the last minute. This is why they are so easily swayed by the media, it is literally their only source of information about the process and the media will obviously trumpet the perceived "winners" in the first round. It takes time for this perception to wear off. Not enough time, as it is now.
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
16. How about this...
Move NH and today's seven up a week, leave everybody else where they are?
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
17. Rotate the primary order...
Even keep NH first if you like. Then have one BIG state the same week! with a primary on Thursday or Sat.

first primary states would happen in Feb... with one or two per week. Then, have regional primaries in March. One region each week.

All states and regions would rotate... Or, have a 'lottery' every 4 years to see who gets the Feb. slots.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
18. I agree.
I think people should threaten to tear up their voter registration card UNLESS there is a major change in the process.
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