Should gay men and lesbians be drafted right along side.................

[guidod]

everyone else? Also, should they be allowed in a 2 year mandatory service contract for their Country? There are a lot of womens being attackedd right now in the news. The Americans that are getting shit on right now are women, because they are slowing losing the right of free choice. Gay men and lesbians are losing a lot more civil rights than that. Gays and lesbians are being told, daily, that they have NO place in our lives.

I have a brother who is gay and I get a birds eye view of what he has to endure. He is treated like a lesser and worthless person every day, he finds it's easy to deal with and then walks away. I'm sure it has to hurt.

What I want to know is, are there any DUer's that feel that gays and lesbians should not have the same rights as straights do? Does anyone feel that gays and lesbians are not born with their homosexuality? If there is a draft should they take gays and lesbians to fight right along the rest of the draftees? Please be honest with your answers.

[Placebo]

1. I hope they don't let gays serve in the military!

It's my only excuse if the draft comes back anytime soon.

I'm young, gay and intelligent with quite a sense of humour—I'm far too precious to be lost in some f'n war! I can't worry my beautiful mind about that kind of ugly stuff.

BUT, if you are gay, and you really really really want to serve...I guess you should be able to, I dunno.

[khashka]

2. It'll be a fucking cold day in hell !

Until I have the same rights, I don't have the same responsibilities....

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways people.


Khash.

[guidod]

12. I don't think it's that far away.

If we get the neocon church freaks out of Washington, it could start coming back. :hi:

[cassiepriam]

34. I agree 100% No full rights, no draft.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

61. Have any of you heard of the "don't ask, don't tell" US military policy?

There will be no restriction on drafting gays and lesbians. In fact, I've already heard a bigoted red-neck in Alabama justify this illegal war by saying it kills blacks that might rob him... The strange thing was that the person who said it is known to be a drug addict and thief but sadly he was never quite able to serve his country and die in Nam.

[wake.up.america]

3. It is less important whether I believe homosexuality is learned

or not. What's important is how I treat gays and lesbians.

Of course, we should all have the same rights.

[guidod]

6. I think it's very important for

straights to know that gays and lesbians are born with it in their genes. I find, with other people, that it's much easier to accept the gay life style when they come to the realization they were all born with it. It also determines how you treat them. I have a friend that tried to commit suicide 4 times because he didn't want to be gay, on the 5th time he succeeded.

[wake.up.america]

8. Ok, I agree with you. But sometimes some straights get hung up...

on discussing the origins of homosexuality, rather than concentrating on the fact that they should be accorded the same rights.

[guidod]

29. I, for one believe you are

born gay and shouild have the same rights, no matter what, as anyone else. However a lot of straights, especially the religious ones, don't agree with different sexual acts that are performed by gays. I've heard many times, remember I'm just a fly on the wall here, religious straights say that people that are gay are going down the wrong path and until they repent and change their actions they will never treat them as an equal. That's why I'm saying that it is important that certain people have to realize that gays are born gay.

[obxhead]

15. "gays and lesbians are born with it in their genes."

That has not become absolute fact and standard ideology in the scientific community. It is only a theory.

Yet it is completely irrelevant to any question regarding gay/lesbian rights.

Choice, genes, parenting, social groups.... That is not the point and does not matter.

Equal Rights do matter though and bigotry needs to be ended on many fronts.

There's a lot more than Iraq going on and more than just our troops have me fighting on their side. :)

[wake.up.america]

17. I agree.

[cassiepriam]

36. Yes, it is fact, and widely accepted by the real scientific community

Homosexuality is biologically based.
This has been standard for a long time now.

[Solon]

37. Biologically based I can agree with, but that doesn't mean there...

is only a genetic cause, hormones, and numerous other factors also influence sexuality, I don't believe its a choice, no more than I believe that I chose to be attracted to women. Just trying to pigeonhole such a complex behavior as sexuality as being caused by ONE factor is an experiment in folly, its like trying to find a genetic cause for the feeling of love itself.

[cassiepriam]

39. We are talking specifically about sexual preference, not sexuality

in general. Sexuality is a big topic with many many facets.
But we are only talking here about sexual preference.

And yes my friend sexual preference is biologically based, like it or not.
You might want to go online and look at the research.

[Solon]

65. First, the proper term is Sexual Orientation...

its not a preference, by any means, also, if you actually read the freakin' SUBJECT of my post you would see that I AGREE that Orientation is biologically based, just not solely GENETICALLY based. Is that too hard to read, or do you need it illustrated, in crayon?

[tavalon]

64. Hmmm

I don't doubt that it's genetic but I question whether that's an important argument. I am polyamorous. People in my community have nature vs. nurture discussions all the time but I don't see the relevence there either. Whatever the cards are, it is far more important to the spirit what one chooses to do with those cards. It can be a work of art for many and quite the spiritual and empowering thing to choose, even if your genes would dictate one way or the other.

[The Traveler]

4. No draft for this damn fool war

But on your theme ... equal rights demand equal responsibilities. Of course, right now gay and lesbian people do not enjoy those rights, so they should not be required to bear arms to defend the rest of us.

As to the "causes of homosexuality" ... the born gay question ... I haven't the foggiest. It seems immaterial to me. The morally correct path is to allow others to live and love as they will. Anything else is merely the exercise of tyranny.

[guidod]

9. When yo know that it is a matter

of being born with it, it's easy to say that gays and lesbians are just another sex.

I don't believe in a draft either, but I do believe in a 2 year mandatory service to your county. It doesn't have to be the military but there are pleanty of other things that would free up our troops so they could really protect us. It works in Israel.

[The Traveler]

14. I have no experience is this matter

so I cannot really speculate as to whether or not one is born gay. I have had many gay and transgender friends over the years. I have witnessed the pointless suffering a godless, heartless legal system has imposed upon them. I object.

It is not that I dispute the theory ... though I suspect the truth is more complex and varies from individual to individual. But in the context of human rights and responsibilities, it has no bearing.

[catmother]

5. gays and lesbians should have the same rights as everyone

else. i've always had gay friends. i don't want to see a draft because no one should have to go and fight a war if they don't want to no matter what their sexual preference is.

it's terrible in this day and age that your brother is treated like a lesser person.

IMO i think gay people are born that way. it's not a choice. edgar cayce -- the late psychic had a theory that people were born homosexual because the soul changed sexes to quickly. in other words if the soul experienced many consecutive lifetimes as a woman and then was reborn as a man too quickly it might make him gay. of course, i'm getting into a whole metaphysical thing -- it's late and i should be sleeping, but that's my opinion for what it's worth.

[guidod]

10. it's a very nice opinion...

[MsUnderstood]

7. Uh? don't ask don't tell policy?

I'm a lesbian and I tell my straight daughter that if god forbid the draft comes knocking on your door then you tell them I've recruited you.

Seriously, gays and lesbians have been barred from the military. In peace time (by that I mean during the Clinton years) there was a huge witch-hunt going on to remove gays and lesbians from the military.

There is a great book for you to read called Conduct Unbecoming http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0449909174/102-9690628-5928903?v=glance&n=283155

Look at what gays and lesbians (and straight folks who become the scapegoats for the military) have to endure and then tell me we homosexuals should stand up and sign on.

[guidod]

11. I'm sorry you have it so tough

right now just trying to be treated like the person you are. Just another person, no less and no more. One day. peace

[dsc]

21. Conduct Unbecoming

is about the era before Don't Ask Don't Tell. It is still a great book but it isn't about Clinton years.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

73. Great book.

Also Barack Buddies and Soldier Lovers. (Much less sanatized- more graphic!)

[dsc]

74. I bet

Sounds like a porno almost.

[Stockholm]

13. Draft and death equal opportunity employers?

A more interesting question would be why the GBLT community would volunteer to fight for an administration that are hell bent on their destruction?

[cherokeeprogressive]

16. Gays and Lesbians should have the same rights as Straights.

I don't think that they're BORN with their homosexuality. But then, I'm wrong at least as often as I'm right, so who knows? NO one does.

If there is a draft, I think Gays and Lesbians should be given the same consideration that Straights are. No matter what. No special dispensation for being Gay.

Repeat: No Special Dispensation for Being Gay. IN ANY MATTER.

[Placebo]

18. People are born gay. Period.

And until the day comes that Gay Americans have the same rights as everyone else, they shouldn't be forced to fight for a country that doesn't value or respect them.

[guidod]

23. I agree with everything you said,

including people are born gay. Period.

[guidod]

28. Howdy neighbor!

The ones who know they are born gay are the ones that are gay.

Gays don't want any special dispensation, all they want are equal rights and to be treated like anyone else.

[foreigncorrespondent]

40. Okay...

I don't think that they're BORN with their homosexuality

...so then you weren't BORN with your heterosexuality? You made the choice to be hetoersexual, right?

No Special Dispensation for Being Gay. IN ANY MATTER.

Care to expand on that thought? What do you consider "special dispensation" for being gay? Is it just where the military is concerned or do you believe any rights that gays ask for are "special dispensation" or "special rights" for the gay community? After all, if we chose to be gay, then any rights we ask for to suit that "lifestyle choice" must be "special rights", right? After all, living a "normal lifestyle choice" we would have all those rights anyway, right?

[Behind the Aegis]

19. What an interesting post.

GLBT should not be drafted. If we cannot serve in times of peace, then why should we be expected to serve in times of war? I find it appalling that gay linguists, fluent in Arabic, were thrown out while we (the US) were "at war" with an Arab country. If they try to draft me, I will show up at the recruiting office with a man attached to my cock. I do not support this war, but even if I did, I will not die for a country that still refuses to treat me as an equal!

There are those here that feel that gays are "asking for too much too soon." They will not come right out and say that we should not have equal rights, but they will be first ones to say we "cost them an election!"

As for being born gay, I only have this to say..."Thanks for the Genes, mom!" I never chose to be gay, it is just who I am. Could it be genetic? Sure. Sociological? Why not...but I have three younger brothers, none of whom are gay. Pathological? Possible, but I haven't killed anyone and i sure have those moments, so why can I control that primal urge and not the one to fuck?

If there is a draft, and I doubt there will be, should they take gays? only if they are willing to let us be who we are in times of peace! As long as this not inscribed on our tombstone...

"They gave me a medal for killing a man, and a discharge for loving one."
- Sargent Leonard Matlovich

[guidod]

24. LOL on opening paragraph.

I feel gays should have all the same rights that anyone else has, there shouldn't be an ounce of difference. The gay community DID NOT cost anyone the election. It was the neocons and their churches that did. I think they would like to go back to the stone ages.

I never chose to be straight. I have one other brother who is stright and another brother who is gay. You are who you are and you should be proud of it. My gay brother seems happier than me or my other brother, it's all a state of mind and has nothing to do with gender.

I don't think there will be a draft either, but if there is I agree you shouldn't have to hide who you are.

I love the quote that's posted at the bottom by Sargent Leonard Matlovich. An essay of feelings put into a 15 word sentence, very nice.

Good luck Aegis

[catmother]

52. i saw your post last night and i wanted to respond. i'm not

making light of the situation but i'm a very visual person and your statement that "i will show up at the recruiting office with a man attached to my cock" cracked me up. did you ever see the commercial with the woman attached to her husband's back? they say she won't get off his back until he's checked for colon cancer. well it just made me think of that and i'm sorry but i have to laugh. i can't help but visualize a man attached to your cock. i'm sure you have a sense of humor too or you wouldn't have made that statement. if i'm out of line i'm sorry.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Not out of line at all!

I said it to be funny. And, I do know the commercial you are talking about. If the Army wants me to "be all I can be," Then they will to accpect, "I am what I am...QUEER!" :)

[soothsayer]

20. No, and everyone drafted should claim to be gay. That'll fix 'em.

[guidod]

25. It could even put an end to all this madness

[TheBaldyMan]

22. there have ALWAYS been gays in the military

ask any ex-serviceman or woman.

One of the biggest laughs I had in uniform was when the British Army finally relented to European law. My unit had a talk from our CO and said something along the lines of:

'Well we have to let them in, as far as the army is concerned we are not interested in their sexuality, if some new recruit comes up to me and starts telling me about their sexuality I'll have to stop them and tell them that the Army isn't interested in the slightest.' I had a vision of my CO with his fingers in his ears singing La, la, la I'm not listening.

This was amazing because there was a couple gays within spitting distance of me in the audience, and most of us were struggling to keep a straight face, I mean, Where the hell had they been keeping the CO all these years? Most people in my unit used to do a bit of leg-pulling with gay/lesbian soldiers but wouldn't dream of ratting them out.

[guidod]

26. My brother said the same thing.

That there are more gays in the military than anyone would ever imagine. It's to bad we can't let everybody be what they were born to be. It's a shame a lot of people want to get rid of things they don't understand instead of accepting something that is different from themselves.

Your ex-CO sounds like he was a great person.

[TheBaldyMan]

42. my ex-CO was giving an orientation lecture after gays were

allowed in the British Army. It came as news to him that there were gays in the army !

[jschurchin]

27. To answer these questions.

"What I want to know is, are there any DUer's that feel that gays and lesbians should not have the same rights as straights do? Does anyone feel that gays and lesbians are not born with their homosexuality? If there is a draft should they take gays and lesbians to fight right along the rest of the draftees? Please be honest with your answers."

They are Americans, and they deserve ALL of the right's, privliges and consequences as any other American.

[guidod]

31. That's pretty much what I'm asking.

You just said it a lot better. Thanks, I will edit my post.

[guidod]

32. Sorry, I can't

my editing time has expired.

[Breeze54]

30. NO!

there should be no draft.
What are ya? Crazy?
:crazy:

[guidod]

33. That's not what I'm asking.

I agree there shold not be a draft. My question is a hypothetical one, check out Post # 27 where it is explained better than mine.

[Breeze54]

62. I knew what you were asking....

Get a clue!!

[guidod]

67. Get a clue!! That's a nice

response in an open debate. Why are you so angry?

[guidod]

68. NO!

What are ya? Crazy? :crazy: Is this the correct response to the question "Should Gays Men and Lesbians Be Drafted Right Along Side ofEveryone Else"? I'm very well aware there shouldn't be a draft. :banghead:

[cassiepriam]

35. Every educated person knows that homosexuality is inborn

Look at the research.

[Theide]

38. Yes, here's why

I tend to think that the overwhelming majority is Nature.

The question regarding the draft is a complicated one. If you are going to draft people who have already admitted that they are in violation of the UCMJ, then you would have to either change the rules regarding GBLT personnel or ship them directly from boot camp to their court martial and subsequent dishonorable discharge.

I wanted to join up when I was younger, and would have done so at 17 (1989) if not for that little rule about no GBLT. I figured myself out at a fairly young age, so there was no doubt as to my orientation. I was raised with a strong sense of honor, fed by all sorts of things, and could not reconcile going in with a lie at the very start. So I didn't go, and was glad I hadn't when Desert Storm happened. I was then sorry I hadn't when we finally helped end the genocide in Yugoslavia, that being colored with a deep sense of shame that we had done nothing in Rwanda and Burundi.

Now I'm glad I didn't again. I would have been stuck fighting for something I didn't believe in, and compelled to fight anyway. All in all, the whole thing has worked out to my personal advantage.

If there is a draft, it should be truly Universal. Women and GBLT should also be drafted, and, to a point, people who would have been declared physically unfit. The military needs people at desks doing the logistics end even more badly than it needs actual warfighters. That would mean some major changes in the rules.

A good half of the ex and retired military I know are Gay or Lesbian. Some were desk jockeys, some were Ground Pounders, some were Special Ops. One or two were other support types (Nurse, Mechanic).
All served proudly and had volunteered for service. All were at least dedicated to doing their best to
be the best at what they did.

In terms of the people I know, and have known, GBLT personnel tend to be more hardworking and conscientious about their jobs than many of the straights around them. The majority of them were celibate until after their terms of service, especially the career people. I guess that's sort of a personal compromise, but not one I would have been happy making.

Anyway, a truly Universal draft, if there were to be one. Also jack the age up to 35.

[guidod]

44. The way this country

treats gays and women is terrible. Give me one good reason why they should fight for it.

There NEVER should be a draft anyway.

[Theide]

46. As pissed of as I am about that,

I am still a patriot. We will get our rights, but America lags the world in many ways and our mistreatment is not the most odious of the injustice handed out in our country.

Anyway, for a draft to come through, the very survival of our nation has to be at stake, or at least perceived to be. If that were so, would you not volunteer?

[guidod]

53. At 58 and having had fusion surgery done

on 5 levels in my back and walking with a cane...........probably not. I did 6 years of Navy from 1966-1972 so at least I know I served my Country. How about you?

[Theide]

55. Not allowed to, but my thanks to you for your service.

They don't like it when you're gay.

[guidod]

57. Thanks, and don't quit fighting. Peace

[foreigncorrespondent]

41. To answer your questions!

If the law is equal for all, then the draft should be equal for all as well.

Right now, women should NOT be serving. I say this because, right now the United States does not respect women, period, so why should we be putting out lives on the line for that? But the decision was theirs to make, and they made it, so good on them.

The same can be said for all the LGBTIQQ people currently serving. They shouldn't be serving. But again, the decision was theirs to make, and they made it, so good on them.

Are there people on DU that feel the LGBTIQQ community should not have the same rights? You bet your ass there is. I have seen it many times over my years here. I cannot count on my two hands the amount of fights myself, my partner, and my gay DUer friends have had to fight to defend our right to life, right here on DU. Thankfully though, if these few people do get carried away with their insults, they risk losing their posting rights on DU.

On edit: typo

[guidod]

43. I could NOT agree with you more!

Very, very, very good post! You said it all!

[foreigncorrespondent]

60. Thanks, guidod!

And a much belated welcome to DU. :)

[cboy4]

58. FCorrespondent, you know how much I love you right?

Well said as always! ;)

[foreigncorrespondent]

59. Feelings are mutual, dear friend. :)

:hug:

[MrSlayer]

45. No. Why should they be?

If they aren't equal citizens why the hell should they fight and die for the country that discriminates against them otherwise? When we have equal rights across the board for everyone, then you can draft them.

[guidod]

51. I agree and well said!

[Doctor_J]

47. Let's see...your brother says,

"I am willing to die to preserve your way of life". I say, "well, maybe - what do you do in your bedroom with the door closed?" :wtf: Religious nuts have WAY too much say in this country.

[guidod]

49. Boy are you right!

[baldguy]

48. Well, if we're singling groups out....

The first ones to go should be registered Republicans.

[guidod]

50. This thread isn't meant to single out

any group. I'm only talking about gays being drafted with everyone else. But seeing as you brought it up, do you mean the parents or their teenage kids?

[baldguy]

71. Republican Parents or their kids? - Yes

[sheelz]

54. No

but you already knew my answer. BTW--Thanks for all your support on this draft issue! :thumbsup: :)

[tavalon]

63. No one should be drafted

That said, if a draft or a mandatory service requirement comes along, no one should be exempt unless they are disabled. I don't now nor have I ever understood why what your equipment is or who you use it with should be a factor in anything. Unless it crosses the line into pediphilia.

[guidod]

66. You're right, if a draft

were to happen in this Country do you think that people who are not afforded the same freedoms, or have the same rights as the rest of us have, should be forced to fight and die for that Country? I don't.

[MadMaddie]

69. Take it to a higher level...

If the person is an American Citizen is 18 and eligigable for draft...(regardless of sexual orientation, race, gender) should be drafted. (If it were to come to that).

Gays pay taxes and are American citizens and should receive equal and fair treatment under our constitution. It's not a moral issue it's an issue of rights guaranteed to citizens of America.

[guidod]

75. It's to bad that gay men, lesbians and

women don't have all the rights of an average American Citizen. No they shouldn't face the draft just for that reason alone.

[BR_Parkway]

70. No, they shouldn't be drafted - they don't want me now, they don't

need me then. Plenty of College Republicans can go instead. Besides, I've already served, honorably, right up until they booted me for being queer.

As for the whole genetic/choice thing - here's my very simplistic answer.

If gay is genetic, then I deserve to be treated exactly the same as an American - regardless if their genetics made them white, straight, male or female.

If gay is a choice, then I deserve to be treated exactly the same as an American - regardless if their choices made them Baptist, straight, college educated, rich or jazz musicians.

It doesn't matter one bit WHY I'm gay, what matters is that I'm an American - and no less of one than anyone else in this country.

[Rocknrule]

72. Yea, so they can be part of Operation Human Shield

:sarcasm: