How do you REALLY feel about torture?

[Douglas Carpenter]

I just finished reading a book on the subject of the CIA and the use of torture. The author, Dr. Alfred W. McCoy Professor of History at the University of Wisconsin at Madison while making a compelling case in favor of an unconditional ban on all forms torture both physical and psychological points out that many Americans especially in the post 9/11 world have rather nuanced opinions regarding the use of torture; especially psychological torture.

link to Amazon site: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805080414/ref=cm_bg_f_3/002-2335023-4421627?v=glance&n=283155

I'm posting below the review I wrote for the book on Amazon

An incredible book I am re-reading right now. The book is written with relative dispassion and with few superlatives relying almost entirely on official reports from independent organizations such as the International Red Cross and Amnesty international as well as declassified U.S. Government archives.

What I found most disturbing is the insight into the reality that almost anyone can be made into a torturer and perhaps even be seduced by its perverse theater of power. There is no such thing as "a little bit of torture". By its very nature torture always gets out of control. Psychological torture is almost always more cruel and more damaging than physical torture. Sen. John McCain himself made this very clear in his own testimony recalling his years in a North Vietnam POW camp stating clearly that if given the choice he would chose physical torture over psychological.

Torture does not produce reliable intelligence but it may well very induce the recipient into saying things the interrogator wants to hear.

The author is Professor of History Dr. Alfred McCoy of the University of Wisconsin at Madison also author of The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade, Closer than Brothers: Manhood at the Philippine Military Academy and A History of the Philippines

Listen/watch interview with Professor McCoy regarding the subject of torture and U.S. foreign policy on Democracy Now - copy and paste web address:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/17/1522228&mode=thread&tid=25

[SofaKingLiberal]

1. Get your popcorn here!

:popcorn:

[rman]

9. doesn't look like this poll is going to get exiting

Relevant, but not exiting - not in the absense of some freepers anyway.

[Douglas Carpenter]

16. yeah, I thought there might be a bit more discussion

[jeff30997]

2. Who the hell voted:

"We are at war against fanatics who want to destroy us and if torture is necessary to protect American lives-so be it" ??? That's sick!

[John Q. Citizen]

3. Probably some popcorn salesman...

[northofdenali]

4. OMFG -

John Q. :rofl::popcorn:

[jeff30997]

5. LOL!

[usoverload]

21. I agree

These people are not torturing our troops?They certainly torture the living left behind from 9/11!
OH,I forgot WE are suppose to be politically correct,even in the midst of war with people who have no
concience and think that they should kill even innocent civillians(WTC bombing)HOW TRULY SAD

[Douglas Carpenter]

29. May I ask who are you talking about?

What tiny, tiny percentage of those tortured in U.S. custody had anything-anything-anything to do with either the WTC bombing or torturing our troops?

What evidence is there that torture committed by U.S. forces has done anything but strengthen the insurgency?

Complicity in torture is not just politically incorrect. Under international law it is a war crime and a crime against humanity. If Nuremberg rules applied, senior officials would be hung.

And on top of all of that; it does not produce reliable intelligence. Standard FBI questioning techniques involving empathy and systematic non-coercive procedures produce far more reliable information and actually do it quicker.

[scot]

6. "There is no such thing as 'a little bit of torture'".

Of course there is. Where do you draw the line between acceptable stress and torture? Is it sleep dep? If so, how long. Your 48 hours might be my 36 and his 24. Its all a continuum.

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. The author argues that the record reveals that even limited and qualified

approvals always get out of hand; always. Once interrogators begin crossing the line the interrogators unleash within themselves the darkest corners of their mind which permanently damages the interrogator just as it does the recipients. Then the seduction of these exercises spread like wildfire.

The author also quotes documentation as well as senior FBI officials (as opposed to CIA) who simply do no believe these tactics lead to reliable information. Standard FBI questioning techniques involving empathy and systematic non-coercive procedures produce far more reliable information and actually do it quicker.

[Douglas Carpenter]

8. from Professor McCoy's interview:

link: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/17/1522228&mode=thread&tid=25

snip: "There's an absolute ban on torture for a very good reason. Torture taps into the deepest recesses, unexplored recesses of human consciousness, where creation and destruction coexist, where the infinite human capacity for kindness and infinite human capacity for cruelty coexist, and it has a powerful perverse appeal, and once it starts, both the perpetrators and the powerful who order them, let it spread, and it spreads out of control.

So, I think when the Bush administration gave those orders for, basically, techniques tantamount to torture at the start of the war on terror, I think it was probably their intention that these be limited to top al-Qaeda suspects, but within months, we were torturing hundreds of Afghanis at Bagram near Kabul, and a few months later in 2003, through these techniques, we were torturing literally thousands of Iraqis. And you can see in those photos, beyond the details of the techniques that we've described, you can see how that once it starts, it becomes this Dantesque hell, this kind of play palace of the darkest recesses of human consciousness. That’s why it’s necessary to maintain an absolute prohibition on torture. There is no such thing as a little bit of torture. The whole myth of scientific surgical torture, that torture advocates, academic advocates in this country came up with, that's impossible. That cannot operate. It will inevitably spread."

link: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/17/1522228&mode=thread&tid=25

[rman]

10. If you start with the premise that there's such a thing as "acceptable

torture", then you're not opposed to torture.
Acceptable to whom anyway? Who's going to be the judge of what's acceptable torture?

[highplainsdem]

11. Look at the results of this Joplin Globe poll on torture:

Ran across this while checking the website for the paper in Joplin MO (I have some relatives there).

http://www.joplinglobe.com/


When is the torture of war detainees justifiable?

Never...It's inhumane 38.25%

Sometimes...Only if the information will save lives 28.31%

Always...securing the saftey of Americans is necessary at any cost 30.72%

Don't care 2.71%

332 votes counted


By the way, that's after counting my vote for "Never."

[Douglas Carpenter]

12. those are very disturbing figures

it's polls like those that in part motivated me to post this poll

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. I'd like to ask all those people in favor of torture the following:

Suppose the FBI or CIA had mistaken information leading them to believe that YOU knew the whereabouts of a notorious terrorist. Perhaps the terrorist's undercover identity had him working for the same employer as you, and you had been seen having lunch together once. Would the FBI be justified in torturing YOU? (Remember, you don't know where the terrorist is. They just think you do.)

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. good point: evidence shows that the vast majority of people tortured

in Iraq were people just caught up in a sweep or in some cases guilty of petty crimes. There are numerous accounts of people tortured who knew nothing and had nothing to do with the matters they were being interrogated for; probably the overwhelming majority.

[Douglas Carpenter]

15. kick

[mmonk]

17. Torture doesn't protect a nation.

History shows this to be the case. I think in reference to today, the torture now used by the US (which seems to be getting more brutal) is a method of intimidation by the neocons rather than a real information tool. It's like "shock and awe" and is a message.

[Douglas Carpenter]

18. if one keeps in mind that the vast majority of people tortured whether

in CIA custody or Soviet gulags or the security forces of right-wing or left-wing dictatorships or guerrilla movements have little or no actual value as intelligence assets; some other dynamic takes over and always gets way out of control.

[Hosnon]

19. I don't believe in categorical statements. nt

[0007]

22. Could you please expand.....

your reasoning for not believing in an unconditional moral law that applies to all rational beings that is independent of any personal motive or desire?

[Hosnon]

31. I got my undergrad degree in Philosophy - not a single categorical

imperative has ever been found (to my knowledge) that does not have exceptions.

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. would you support an absolute ban on torture to the same degree

that domestically we have an absolute ban on premeditated murder or violent rape?

[Hosnon]

35. I don't place an absolute ban on such things. Perhaps the law does but

I still see exceptions:

Murder: A person kills my entire family. I may murder them within the definition of the term under the law but I wouldn't necessarily consider it morally wrong.

Violent Rape: A bit tricker but an extreme exception can apply. Perhaps when a serial violent raper him/herself goes to jail and is violently raped by the inmates. Sick but not on par with a 13 year old girl getting raped by a sleazy 50 year old man.

My point is this: The question makes no distinction between legality and morality. I can thing of nothing that I believe is unconditionally true (except maybe that statement).

And I would support an "absolute" ban on torture to the same degree the law does with murder and rape. However, I see exceptions with those two concepts and would extend that idea to torture.

[Solon]

47. Problem is the cycle of violence...

Taking your exceptions and running them through the course, if you did what you did in the Murder Scenario, then the Murderer's family has every right to kill you. Same goes for the rape case, eye for an eye is rather stupid, and the same goes for torture, if we torture, the ones we are fighting against will as well, considering that even AFTER Abu Graib came out I haven't heard of many American POWs being tortured nearly as brutally as what the Americans have done. Given that, wouldn't the Iraqis themselves fall in the moral exception, being free to torture as many Americans as they can find in Iraq?

[Zhade]

37. So you believe torture is sometimes acceptable.

Remind me to campaign against you if you ever run for ANYTHING.

[Hosnon]

38. Sure thing. However I wouldn't go so far as to make an affirmative

statement like that.

I think it's wiser to withhold judgment and say that I don't think it's always unacceptable.

[Zhade]

39. Semantics. Means the same thing.

NT!

[Beacho]

20. Despite the moral side, which is where I'm coming from

It's also a tactical blunder

THE SHIT DOESN'T WORK!

However if your goal is to terrorise a population then it does have 'value'

[Douglas Carpenter]

25. It does indeed have value in terrorizing a population..but along with

that it ends ups frequently de-legitimizing the governments that the practice seeks to protect: IE: the French in Algeria, The Shah in Iran, Marcos in the Philippines and now the U.S. in Iraq.

The murderous Phoenix program in Vietnam tortured and tortured to death tens of thousands, but it certainly did not win the hearts and minds of the people.

One aspect of torture that is frequently left unexplored is the very real world of the torture cell and the torturer where a kind of psycho-sexual drama takes over the scene and then encouraged by the sanction of the state and the "noble cause" sadistic brutality loses all moral restraints. Torture permanently damages the psyche of the torturer, who might otherwise be a normal person, just as it does the recipient of torture.

[Hippo_Tron]

23. Define psychological torture

Can we force them to sit in a small cell and watch Days of our Lives 24/7 until they talk?

[Douglas Carpenter]

30. that's almost crossing the line

Old reruns of The Price is Right and Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous would definitely raise consternation in the Hague

[Slit Skirt]

24. you forgot to add that all torture is permissable....

for all the neocons who started this bullshit

[Douglas Carpenter]

26. the neocons certainly brought back torture in a big way.

with the end of the cold war, the CIA seemed to be turing away from the practice until 9/11 created a sense of license.

However unfortunately, torture was being widely practiced and propagated as a matter of covert policy long before the neocons raised their ugly heads.

[k_jerome]

27. justified in a few cases...

unacceptable in the vast majority.

[Douglas Carpenter]

28. some people suggest "the ticking time bomb" scenario

But the ideal that the authorities would catch the one person who they knew for certain knew the facts about "the ticking time bomb" and that they could then quickly brutalize the truth out of them just in time to save the day is a scenario that exist in movies.

The author points out that when the Bush Administration originally approved torture they probably envisioned it to be used only for a few high-value top Al Queda suspects. But within months they were torturing hundreds in Afghanistan and a year later; thousands in Iraq. There is no such thing as a little bit of torture.

Keeping in mind that the vast majority of people tortured whether at Abu Guraib or Soviet gulags or by the security forces of right wing of left wing dictatorships or by guerrilla fighters have little or no potential value for intelligence extraction thus another animal-like dynamic takes over the the torture theater. This becomes intoxicating for the torturer and it spreads like wildfire as it unleashes the uncharted territories of the torturer's brain. Unlike regular sadistic kidnapping or in the worse cases sadistic serial killing, this time it is sanctioned by authority and the righteous cause.

horrifying stuff.

[Beacho]

34. I always ask the retards that push this scenario one question

When, outside of Hollywood, has this scenario EVER taken place?

cue chirping crickets

[Douglas Carpenter]

36. what is scary is that one of those retards is a very prominent Harvard

law professor

[Kablooie]

32. Torture should only be allowed by women in leather.

[Xenotime]

40. There is never a reason for torture.

[mike923]

41. What's is torture anyway?

Some of the things classified as torture, such as being deprived of sleep, having snarling dogs within feet of the captive, loud music, demeaning photos, ect do not fit what i had in my head of what really i would consider torture.

Not to let the military off the hook, but the midevil torture techniques used in vietnam and in the concentration camps i think trump the pain inflicted on most of the stories coming out of Iraq.

Are there degrees of torture?

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. the degrees get out of control

Once authority sanctions torture it in affect turns ordinary people into sadist. But then gives them a mixed message of demanding "results" while throwing out a few platitudes about staying within acceptable guidelines. Once a person crosses the line into the sadistic it becomes impossible to maintain self-control especially when the same authorities are demanding their "results".

Total isolation especially total isolation compounded with sleep deprivation is well known to induce states of psychosis. The author of the above mentioned book goes into detail about the research into this matter.

Sen.McCain himself based on his own experience in North Vietnam said that if given the choice the choice between physical torture and psychological torture, he would chose physical. Both forms are clearly banned by the Geneva Convention. Less reported is the reality that more classic forms of torture almost always follow once psychological torture is unleashed. There has been a lot more classic torture than what is widely reported. This is well documented by the International Red Cross, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and others.

The evidence simply does not show that torture whether psychological or physical produces reliable intelligence; and certainly not to the level that compensates for the human and political cost.

[Solon]

46. OK, so let's take your scenario to the extreme, and see where it goes...

OK, threaten with animals and lack of sleep, let me think....OK, so you are thrown into an Octagonal Cell, right in the center, with bars on all 8 sides, what you also see are 8 Big Cats(Lions, Tigers, Panthers, etc.) behind these bars, all of them are within their own cages so they don't contact each other. They are also hungary, and the center cell that you are in is JUST barely large enough that if you stand up straight in the EXACT center of the cell, none of the Cats can reach you through the bars. You then are to spend days within this cell, now, there is no "Traditional" Torture involved, but would you agree that this isn't the way to treat PEOPLE?

[skids]

42. Personally, I feel it's pretty painful.

:+

[Fire Walk With Me]

43. You mean, like the torture of gas companies charging whatever they feel?

And those of us who buy gas, having zero recourse in the matter? And that they're laughing at us as they raise prices again?

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. yeah that's pretty bad..but I'm not sure that its covered by Geneva

:eyes:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

44. All torture should be illegal

I am prepared to at least consider arguments that there are situations where an individual might be justified in torturing someone - "ticking bomb" scenarios and what have you - but I think it still needs to be illegal. If you don't think a piece of information is worth breaking the law and risking your own future for then you have no business torturing someone else for it.

The only safe place the line can be drawn is to make all torture illegal.