Dean supporters -- what are your thoughts about forming a 3rd party?

[Emillereid]

If Dean doesn't get the nomination the Democratic Party is unlikely to change and become the real opposition party that it needs to become and will probably lose much of the progressive, energetic people that have been attracted to politics via Dean's grassroots campaign. The Dean movement is definitely bigger than the candidate Dean. I've been thinking that now may be the time to build a truly progressive third party. We could merge with all the Kucinich and Green party folks. If Kerry gets the nomination the same old party hacks will continue to run the party into irrelevance -- they seem congenitally constructed without a real backbone.

[trotsky]

1. What a brilliant idea!

I would love to see Bush* in the White House for another 4 years!

</SARCASM>

[The Magistrate]

21. Indeed, Comrade

A thorough-going Leninist would have no difficulty denouncing people who did what this person suggests as being mere agents in fascist pay; professional wreckers and provocatuers masquerading as leftists to further the aims of reaction....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Why not? It would be nice to have an opposition party.

But, we already have one in the Greens. Which it looks like (I hope not) I'll be voting for come November.

[blondeatlast]

100. How does one reconcile Green policy with Dean and his record?

It doesn't work for me, but maybe you can explain.

[HFishbine]

2. If Shrub's approval falls below 40%

Why not?

[nini]

3. Not this time

we need to be united to get this administration out.

Another 4 years of them may result in us not having ANY rights at all and place this country in such turmoil we may never recover.

[ProfessorPlum]

4. terrible, self-destructive, horrible idea

but you knew that.

Dean would not want his legacy to be getting Bush re-elected.

[Cassandra]

5. It would be really hard to organize a third party...

from Gitmo.

[krkaufman]

79. Gitmo?

Gitmo? Heck, all members of a left-leaning third-party would probably get invitations to Bush's second Inaugural Ball.

[DarkPhenyx]

6. That it will guarentee Bush getting re-elected. n/t

[THUNDER HANDS]

7. oh great, first the Green Party, now the Dean Party

[Atlant]

83. Well, it's pretty clear that Dean people aren't wanted in the Democratic..

Well, it's pretty clear that Dean people aren't wanted in the
Democratic Party, other than to shut up and simply vote for the
ordained candidate(s).

Sorry, but I won't be doing that any more; that idea is so-o-o-o
TwenCen!

Atlant

[MaineDem]

93. I strongly disagree with you

"...it's pretty clear that Dean people aren't wanted in the
Democratic Party"

That's so far off the mark. Those supporting Gov Dean are needed and wanted urgently in the Democratic party. The only way to make any change is from within and that internal change happens at the grassroots.

It's the state party that elects the DNC members. It's the county committee that elects the state committee. It would be ideal to have all the involved voters - from every campaign - get involved in their state party and work that way to foster change.

[Beaker]

138. ??????

So- unless everyone kow-tows to Lord Dean and his obviously-more-intelligent-than-the-rest-of-us followers, it is a clear indication that they are not wanted in the party?
Screw the people who actually vote, because they are clearly mistaken...

what a bunch of immature spoiled brats Dean has seemed to attract as "followers"...

[Cassandra]

87. How about the Dean Green Jeans Party?

It's one of those rhyming days.

[lovedems]

8. When I hear Dean speak, he wants to change the democratic party

not start a third party. He has said that he will support THE DEMOCRAT WHO GETS THE NOMINATION if it isn't him. Dean should go down in history as changing the party. He shouldn't go down like Nader and be considered the one who gave bu$h 4 years.

[Eloriel]

10. Nobody said BEFORE November

I don't know why people are jumping up and down about this -- I think it's a terrific idea. I'm in.

[damnyankee2601]

19. Fine, then let's drop it until then.

The immediate goal of destroying the shrub must remain the focus for now.

[Eloriel]

56. Oh, instead of bashing candidates? Great -- starting when? n/t

[lovedems]

39. Well then that should have been evident in the post. It implies

BEFORE November to me. It stated if he didn't win the nomination a third party should be considered.

There seem to be alot of people who take Dean's message farther then he does. I don't think he is willing to abandon the democratic party. He will keep fighting to change it weather he wins the nomination or not. I think it is to bad you want to jump ship that Dean wants to try and save.

Edit

[blm]

9. Dean supported by Gore and Clark supported by Clinton, yet you blame Kerry

as being the establishment?


HAHAHAHAHAHA......what a disconnect.

[mikehiggins]

31. Dean supported by people and Clark supported by people and

Kerry supported by the Party establishment.

Sounds pretty much an accurate assessment to me.

As for Clark being supported by Clinton? Show me the money. If Clinton was actively supporting Clark, Kerry would be sitting home crocheting lists of all the wonderful things he has done.

That dog won't hunt, bunky.

[leyton]

40. Compare Kerry's and Dean's delegates.

Dean's delegates come predominantly from endorsements from Democratic politicians. Kerry's delegates come mostly from winning large victories in Iowa and New Hampshire. So I think this is an accurate assessment.

[Leilani]

101. Clinton's latest comments on the race

were positive ones for Kerry.

Clinton has stayed neutral; Clinton people are working in all the campaigns. The fact that Clark is in Little Rock, it's natural some of the old Arkansas people would show up.

[damnyankee2601]

11. No way. Duh.

It is just this sort of one-issue litmus-test holier-than-thou idealogy that got Bush elected in the first place. Do you want a large, united party of diverse Americans, or do you want two weak parties of irrelevant elitists getting trounced by Amerika's Baath party?

[Duncan Grant]

12. Nah, bad idea this time around.

This election is truly the defining moment of the Democratic party (and the country for that matter).

However, if after the election they do not embrace my core issues and find a way to tap into the energy of the left, *then* I will gladly move on to 'greener' pastures. Just my .02 cents.

[elb77]

13. difficult times...

I really don't see a 3rd party as a viable option. We (Dean supporters) may not like Kerry, but surely Bush is the greater evil. A 3rd party would just fracture our resistance to Bush. I would support Kerry, I suppose. But I would feel like a hypocrit.

[NoPasaran]

14. Not this year

Let's leave this talk until after Bush* is history.

[Monte Carlo]

15. I think the political dynamics in this country will have to change first.

The rules of the Senate and the House just don't leave room for a 3rd party. On the plus side, since Congress gets to make their own rules of procedure, it would take a simple majority to change our current system into one more parlimentary, with many different parties.

16. bad idea

& I voted for Nader in 1996 & 2000. I was in New York so it was safe to do.

[Emillereid]

17. Actually I wasn't thinking of running Dean as a third candidate in 2004 --

What I have in mind is building a new party from the ground up -- local elections first and then mounting a presidential candidate sometime in the future. I just hate to see the base that Dean has built crumble -- and I don't think the Democratic party as presently constituted is going to keep many of these people. I am a member of the democratic party and have worked for it for years -- but if we don't make fundamental changes and repudiate the 'republican lite' doctrine, I for one will be working for the Greens in the future. I'm tired of my progressive vote being taken for granted because I have no place else to go. I don't want to vote for people who have given Bush nearly everything he wanted over the last 3 years.

[mikehiggins]

18. Maybe you could merge with LaRouche and the Perot people as well?

With the decreasing interest of the American public in the conduct of their own government, why take on the task of building a new party from the ground up?

A more realistic goal would be for all the internet grassroots folk who have come out for Dean and Clark to join forces and simply assume control of the Democratic party.

Most insurgents fail because of isolation, marginalisation and lack of funding. I think the Dean and Clark campaigns show clearly how to overcome that, and I don't think there is too great a divide between the average Dean supporter and the average Clark supporter.

I would suggest that everybody go to Amazon and buy copies of Saul Alinsky's two books Rules for Radicals and Reveille for Radicals, read them, study them and then report back in the morning.

Everything you could ever want to know about building a national movement from the grassroots up is contained inside those covers.

If you are going to invest your time and effort, why reinvent the wheel?

[Cooley Hurd]

20. This is not the year to make a "statement" to the DNC...

Any Democrat is better than Bush. As angry as I've been with the DNC (and registered so when they called me for $$$ last week - told them they won't get a dime from me until AFTER the convention because of their treatment of Dean. They denied it and actually said it was the DLC that's been behind the Dean-bashing. Uh-huh...), I'm well aware that this year so much is at stake. And I keep thinking to myself, "if only I campaigned harder, if only I gave more $$$ in 2000, thousands of people would still be alive - those lives snuffed out because of Bush's failures and lies."

So much is at stake this year. If we don't focus and defeat Bush, how many more will die?

[Justitia]

67. So where do Dems against the war go?

Very serious question:

If our candidate does not get the nomination, where do we go? I'm presuming the front-runner Kerry gets it.

I decided to become so active this year because I thought the war was the absolute last straw. I had become disgusted at all the Repub appeasement in our party (way back to impeachment), but I drew the line with the war vote.

If the nominee is a candidate that supported Bush in the war, where on earth do we go???? My conscience absolutely will not let me support any candidate that gave Bush legislative permission to pre-emptively invade another country, based on lies. I cannot move past this.

History was made when America became an agressor, to our detriment.
For those of us screaming from the rooftops about it, where do we go if we feel we have no voice in the opposition?

[wryter2000]

22. You must want 4 more years of this nightmare.

No way, no how, no time.

[mzmolly]

23. Dean won't do it, that's my main thought.

;)

There has been discussion about an alternative to the DLC forming under his leadership. That, I think he may be interested in...

[Hep]

24. I' a democrat, and if you support Dean, you'd better be a D too.

This is the dumbest line I've seen. Dean wants us to TAKE OUR PARTY BACK not start a new one.

The D party is ours for the taking. We can make it what we want it to be. We can't if we leave the party.

Dean will not run third party, and I will not support him if he does. I will hate to vote for anyone else, but that is NOT Dean's message. It's not about him. It's about us taking a stand for the principles on which our party was founded.

[DianeK]

25. i agree...

for this general election i will support the the democratic nominee but if that nominee is not dean i will not be supporting the democrats again and i will be looking to a third party that understands the position this country is in with business as usual

[killbotfactory]

26. We need Bush out.

And Dean can use his support to influence the party for the better.

[mzmolly]

51. Dean is ABB, he has said so on numerous occassions..

Though I've been angry enough to wish he would at times, I realize now that it would be futile, we'd lose, Dems would lose and Bush would win. No victory in that scenario.

The topic of a new counter group to the DLC has been raised though. I really like that idea because there is no term limit on the influence such a group could have. It could really make an impact long term.

Funny thing is I and others have suggested a counter group and I went over to the "Forum for America" and saw other Dean supporters had been thinking on those lines too.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

27. Oh here we go - the moment we all knew was going to happen

We all could have predicted this....

[sangh0]

28. The rules

Democratic Underground may not be used for political organizing activity by supporters of any political party other than the Democratic party. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic party candidate.

[QC]

29. I guess just one Nader isn't enough.

Honestly, this has got to be the silliest idea ever to come down the pike. Not even Karl Rove would dare to dream that the opposition would do something so stupid.

Here's an idea if we want to build a progressive movement in this country: stop looking for some messianic figure to run a vanity campaign every four years and start putting the pressure on our elected officials all the time, every time an issue of importance to progressives comes before Congress. (Which *is* pretty much all the time.) Mobilize letter-writing and phone call campaigns. Organize. Put up primary challengers against DINOs. Make their lives so miserable and their careers so uncertain if they sell us out that they won't dare do it again.

But the worst possible strategy is the one so many so-called progressives choose now, which is, as I said, to run a hopeless presidential candidate every election and then think that their work is done and do nothing until the next election. That's the surest way in the world to lose what little the right hasn't taken away from us yet.

[blondeatlast]

102. But, but, but, ... that means:

I might have to question my chosen candidate;
I might have to write or phone my Congresspeople;
I might have to actually know how progressive my candidate is before I support him;
Someone might question my support of my so-called "progressive" candidate.

Too much trouble. I'm going to the Lounge.

//sarcasm off.

[AntiCoup2K4]

30. A Dean/Mc Cain third party ticket would draw enough support from both.....

...sides to have realistic chances. Let's say hypothetically they signed onto the Reform Party which has some form of nationwide structure after being present in the last 3 Presidential races.

Dean and McCain do have a lot in common. Both have warned against the corporatization of their parties. Both were infinitely better candidates than the ones chosen by their party hacks. Both have been savagely assassinated by those within their own party.

That's not to say it's gonna happen, as both Dean and McCain remain loyal to parties which have shown no loyalty to them.

[Strelnikov_]

85. Um, Better Look At McCain's Politics First

The guy is pretty far right. He just appears to be a populist.

[blondeatlast]

105. MCCain is my Senator; if he is okay with you, then fine,

but he is too far right for my taste. As a person (I've met him a few times) he is a fine gentleman, but honestly; if you think Kerry is too far to the right ...

Sheesh.

[Cocoa]

32. Biden and Lugar might join that party

Sounds like a great idea, I can't wait to see the platform, they could write it in pencil. :-)

[mikehiggins]

36. Crayon, on brown paper bags (plastic bags hurt the environment) n/t

[Jerseycoa]

33. I never thought I would say a thing like this

But if the Dems select a nominee who does not beat back the Bush machine in November, I have been considering dropping the party after 38 years of strictly Dem votes. I am that disgusted.

[beyurslf]

34. Oh yeah I know...

Let's form a 3rd pary and fracture the Dem party. That way Bush gets 4 more years and then his brother can reign for 8 years. By then, that nice little nephew fellow should be ready to take over.

On second thought, why don't we rally behidn the nominee and make sure Bush leaves our house in Jan 2005.

[Champion Jack]

35. Bad, bad Idea

It will only help bush

[Justitia]

37. "Old Democrat" here

I know this issue is a real hot-button, but I must say this:

I have come to really empathize with 3rd party supporters this year. Since immersing myself in the Dem races, I have gotten a real education on what goes on inside the party, and it's shocking.

I used to lampoon the goose-stepping of the RWers, where dissent is not allowed. Now I feel like supporters of my candidate are getting "the treatment" and the bum's rush right outta the primary season. It still mystifies me as to why ANY candidate would be pressured to drop out so early. I think there is a very real danger in disenfranchising a huge bloc of normally faithful Dems.

I consider myself an "Old Democrat" (vs. a "New Democrat"), and I think our faction of the party is being hustled right out the door. If us Old Democrats don't stand up for some bedrock Dem principles this year, I fear they will be lost.

I hear often: "This election is too important", and to me, that is a DLC trap. What that means is, "Where else are you going to go?, What other choice do you have?". The same mantra has been employed in the past, which gave birth to the 3rd party movements.

You may disagree, but I see real seeds of discontent brewing, and for the very first time ever, I have real empathy for 3rd party supporters.
I won't be so quick to demonize them ever again.

[mikehiggins]

45. Reform, don't abandon, our party.

Take notes and after the election we can talk about what can be done.

There is no need to abandon the party of FDR and Truman and JFK and RFK and all the rest because some folks at the top have gone a different way.

We should revitalise the Democratic Party from the ground up, and we should also pool our money via the internet and buy some radio stations. Maybe some of the bigger unions could invest some money in them if they were profit making.

Just some ideas to start with while we work to kick George Bush out of the White House.

[Justitia]

54. This year or when? Never, of course.

Something must change this year. The party leadership must listen to the huge bloc of Old Dems or risk losing them forever. The Old Dems must use their considerable weight this year or give up their leverage completely. It is PRECISELY this year that affords the opportunity to realign the party with it's core principles.

If matters of war and peace aren't those that will define the opposition in the phrase "opposition party", what will?

Year after year of this explains disenfranchisement, disillusionment and abandonment of political activism altogether. We are becoming the party that consistently loses, and I'm beginning to grasp why. Appeasement doesn't inspire anyone - either outside the party to appease the president, or inside the party to appease ABB thought.

I have been a Democrat my whole life, and this is the first time I have felt this way. I think we are on the edge of a precipice.

[FubarFly]

113. That was well said.

You've summed it up exactly. The canary died in 2000, yet for some reason, we're being told to dig deeper into the mine. If Dean doesn't win, then he will try to use his leverage to change the Party for the better. If he is rebuffed, and his grassroots is co-opted (which won't work, although it won't stop foolish heads from trying), or dismantled, then the Party will be in serious danger of collapsing under the weight of it's own cynical greed.

[Eloriel]

74. Look what's happened to the candidate -- and his supporters --

who wanted to reform from the ground up.

[OhioStateProgressive]

38. I'm a Kucinich supporter, but I'm for it

the system needs f*cked sideways

[rucky]

41. How Would this 3rd Party Be Different From all the Others?

Would you call it the Howard Dean Party?

Okay, so the Dean Movement is bigger than Dean - can you put your finger on what it stands for?

Would you call it the "United We Stand" party? oh, that's been taken.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea (for 2005), I'd just like to hear more thoughts - to see if there really is a common ground other than mere protest to the corrupt two-party system.

[abburdlen]

42. Ask again

after the general election

[Blayde Starrfyre]

43. If not now, then when?

Many of you are saying that now is not the right time: what is important is to get Shrub out of office. My question is, when will you STOP saying this? Let's say we replace Bush with Kerry. Kerry turns out to be the same-old, same-old DNC b.s. In 2008 the Republicans run another neo-con. Again, you will be saying "now is not the right time, we must defeat (insert neo-con here)." Or if Bush* wins in 2004 and the Republicans run someone to continue his legacy, you will still be saying "it's not the right time for who we REALLY want, it's time for someone electable." This could continue ad nauseum.

Now I am not saying that now is the right time to found a third party or to dismantle the current leadership of the Democrats. I am simply asking when it WILL be time, because I think many on this site would agree that today's Democrats are not what we want them to be.

[mikehiggins]

48. Thanksgiving weekend

That should be a good time to start.

[dansolo]

44. What about a Dean/Clark third party ticket?

I know that Dean has said that he won't go third party, and I know that Clark said that he wouldn't be a VP. But, talking hypothetically now, what would happen if Dean and Clark were to simultaneously drop out and announced that they were joining together to form a third party ticket? Together I think that they could pull significant support from both Bush and Kerry. Personally I would be against Dean going third party, but I would be really intrigued by this.

[mikehiggins]

49. can not, will not happen n/t

[Emillereid]

60. I think that could work --

after dean, my second choice is Clark. The people who are reacting negatively to this idea of a real, progressive third party probably have not realized the Dean, Kucinich and to some extent, the Clark campaigns, have attracted an enormous amount of new blood, hopeful to make the Democratic party more true to its Jeffersonian, FDR, JFK roots. I think a lot of these people will not stay active if Kerry gets the nod. I don't think the party insiders realize that although most of us ABB, we are also very angry with the dem party leadership or lack of it.

[blondeatlast]

107. 4 more years of the same old, same old. Is that what you are wanting?

[LuminousX]

46. No. Not this year. The stakes are too high.

Talk to me about a 2006 Dean Party if Dean isn't in office, getting Dean people elected to local offices and Congress.

[Emillereid]

47. OK -- flame away.

If Kerry gets the nomination, I'll certainly vote for him in November. If he does though I don't think the Democratic Party is going to make the kind of changes that I think it should to provide a real alternative to the republican party. I really do want to take this country back for ordinary people like the good doctor says. We all know that the democrats have also worked for corporate interest -- perhaps they've put a kinder, more compassionate face on it -- but the Greens are right that the Democratic party is just as much into the special corporate interests as the Repukes. Good grief it was a democratic president who have us NAFTA without any safeguards for working people or the environment, who have us so called welfare reform, etc. I've voted for the Dems all my life and they have let me down too many times. After November, I'm voting my heart -- I'm tired to voting for the lesser evil. That means Dianne Feinstein -- you're not getting my vote or my money again!

[BurtWorm]

50. The Dean movement should become a bloc within the party

and it should not be afraid to use its muscle to get the party to respond to it. If the Dem nominee, whoever it may be, starts sounding like a Republican, the Dean bloc could "threaten" a boycott, for example. Other Dems may hate us while it happens, but they'll love us for it when we train our "leaders" to show fangs and spine.

[mzmolly]

52. Yes sir. "The Democratic Wing"

We could counter Al From and his cronies when ever necessary. WE could fund and endorse progressive candidates. WE could work with Moveon to lobby for change...

[blondeatlast]

109. On that point, I heartily agree! I'm ADemBB, but I want to see spine

in the party.

Even if Dean doesn't get the nomination, I think his supporters are needed to bring the Dems back to the Dems I remember--my first GE vote was for Carter's re-election.

[kentuck]

53. At least, maybe some folks can see where the Green Party was coming

from....just the idea shows the discontent. Just like the Greens...:)

[justinpower]

55. Youve been sold a bill of goods

There are plenty of third parties out there. If you are tired of the Dem party I am certain you could find one that would speak to your issues. Believing that Dean is progressive enough to even entertain the idea of merging with the established third parties is nonsensical. Any self respecting Green that backs Dean has not scrutinized his enviro record. I think you would have a rough time pulling in too many DK supporters as well. Dean is absolutely a centrist. He belongs in the Dem party, nowhere else.

[Eloriel]

80. Any self-respecting Green who supports Dean does so because

he HAS A SPINE. HE SPEAKS UP.

He also has a campaign financed by The People -- can't GET more progressive than that on that issue IMO.

[justinpower]

82. Are you a former Green

That is now supporting Dean? If so, could you explain to me how he adresses those issues which are embraced by the Green party? Thanks

[blondeatlast]

110. I argue this with friends who support Dean all the time on this issue.

I still don't get it ...

[ThirdWheelLegend]

126. Dean does NOT represent the Green party platform..

At least not in record and stated policy. Maybe in rhetoric and the wishes of supporters, but not in actual positions.


TWL

[kaitykaity]

57. Nader redux would give Bush carte blanche to destroy us.

I was really mad at Nader and the Greens for helping Bush steal the election in 2000. A Dean third party would have the same result. That is completely unacceptable. I'll hold my nose and vote for (Kerry, whoever). I don't see any other choice.

[Demeter]

58. It's Enough to Try to Form a Second Party!

Let's finish the job, okay?

[justinpower]

61. And another thing

I get really tired of everyone blaming Nader. If the democrats hadent wussed out and failed to stand up to W in the post election confusion maybe Gore wouldnt have had to pack his bags and move out of HIS house. Nader and the Greens have every right to participate. They at least offer something different, which sometimes I think we sorely need. I voted Green in the last 2 GEs, Kucinich brought me back to the dem party and I had intended on staying here. However after spending the last several weeks looking at what the party has to offer, as far as candidates and cohesion, I am starting to reconsider.

[TexasPatriot]

62. to paraphrase Al Sharpton in SC yesterday...

'they told me Al, if you run it will kill the democratic party by pushing it to the left. Well, we dont control the presidency, we dont control the senate, we dont control the house... How can i kill something that's already dead?'

Why go to all the trouble of making a 3rd party when the democratic party is so big a mess.

[Emillereid]

65. Maybe the Democratic Party tent is just too big --

lets be honest, a party that includes Zell Miller and Kucinich has perhaps spread it's ideology just too thin!

[TexasPatriot]

69. i absolutely disagree

if we have 4 or 5 parties, then ok... but when the wealth started to polarize the politics were going to follow. If you want to start to marginalize in a 2 party system you're going to make what we have now even worse - a turned off electorate having to make the 'better of 2 evils' choice, or choose not to participate.

The less open we are, the more of a freakshow the pubs can be and still be electable in the polls - because fewer and fewer people will vote.

Dean and Clark represent something VERY different to this party - and i hope they can use it to change the party for the better - because it will bring more people to the process.

[Tinoire]

88. Bingo! And year after year candidates like Kucinich get snuffed out

I'm getting sick of this. We all saw what the Establishment Dems did to the San Francisco Mayoral race when it looked like a Green just might win and based on angry Democratic votes at that.

How long do Centrists think Progressives are going to be placated by those tired old lines of all-inclusive tent, tiny steps or "just focus on local elections and build from the ground up"?

Clinton, Gore and Jesse Jackson Sr brought the DLC message LOUD AND CLEAR to us when they came and stomped for that crypto-Republican Newsom.

The DLC acts like it's got our balls in a vise and can foist whatever candidate THEY so choose on the people. Sorry... I have NO loyalty to the DLC.

If Centrists and the DLC are so intent on getting Bush out then let them do a little compromising for a damn change. Let them cater a little less to the corporations and a little more to the people!

Sad to say this 4 years later but Nader was absolutely correct. It's going to have to get a helluva lot worse before it gets any better because of the arrogance of the Establishment Dems.

The Democratic Party stands for absolutely nothing anymore.


---

Behind the DLC Takeover
By John Nichols

At the national convention of a major political party, an ideologically rigid sectarian clique secures the ultimate triumph. It inserts two of its own as nominees for the Presidency and the Vice Presidency. Heavily financed by the most powerful corporations in the world, the group's leaders gather in a private club fifty-four floors above the convention hall, apart from the delegates of the party they had infiltrated. There, they carefully monitor the convention's acceptance of a platform the organization had drafted almost in its entirety. Then, with the ticket secured and with the policy course of the party set, they introduce a team of 100 shock troops to deploy across the country to lock up the party's grassroots.

<snip>

Founded in the mid-1980s with essentially the same purpose as the Christian Coalition--to pull a broad political party dramatically to the right--the DLC has been far more successful than its headline-grabbing Republican counterpart. After Walter Mondale's 1984 defeat at the hands of Ronald Reagan, a group of mostly Southern, conservative Democrats hatched the theory that their party was in trouble because it had grown too sympathetic to the agendas of organized labor, feminists, African Americans, Latinos, gays and lesbians, peace activists, and egalitarians.

And they found willing corporate allies, in corporate America, who provided the money needed to make a theory appear to be a movement. In the ensuing fifteen years, the DLC's impact on the American political debate has been dramatic. The group now controls much of the upper-level apparatus of the Democratic Party.

A day is soon coming when "we'll finally be able to proclaim that all Democrats are, indeed, New Democrats," declared DLC President Al From on the eve of this year's Democratic National Convention.

((Well, you know what Al? You're going to accomplish that without my support))

<snip>

Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone echoed Jackson's view. "There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans," he said. "I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn." It's not surprising that Jackson, Wellstone, Senator Russ Feingold, Democrat of Wisconsin, members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus and the Congressional Black Caucus, the AFL-CIO, the venerable Americans for Democratic Action, and other upholders of traditional Democratic values are aghast at the DLC. They have seen their party taken over by an ideological force that opposes almost all of what they stand for.

<snip>

http://www.progressive.org/nich1000.htm

NO THANK YOU!

[Emillereid]

90. Way to go Tinoire!

Obviously the centrists dems are better than the repukes -- but they're so focussed on winning elections that they seem to forget what they're winning them for. I mean Clinton was in for 8 years, but he did not get that much accomplished and he didn't even try to push for a progressive agenda. And while the DLC electability strategy worked in 1992, it didn't work in 2002. People want a real alternative.

[Tinoire]

124. Oh but must add- I'm not a Dean supporter.

((Thanks)) I must add, in order not to bring any dishonor to Dean supporters that I'm not a Dean supporter; I don't want them tarred with my post. I used to be a loyal Dem. Now I don't know wth I am. I am beginning to think of myself as an Independent Progressive. After these primaries, I will probably go register Green because I want to make sure the Democratic Party gets my message loud and clear and that message is "move LEFT". Registering as an Independent would too easily allow them to bury their head and think I was a Conservative.

[sybylla]

63. No third party. The Democratic Party can be changed.

And the Dean supporters are just the people to do it.

There are two ways to reform the party. One is to support, fund and elect a candidate who doesn't toe the party line. The other is to become a member of the party and work for reform from the inside.

I have been to Dean meetups in two different counties in my state and at both locations there was at most two party members there besides me and my spouse. Membership matters. It is the only way to affect a change in the party attitude and get politicians listening. Fortunately, my state's Democratic party is very progressive so there isn't much changing needed. Strength in numbers is important here. And candidates, local, state and federal, who know a state has a strong Democratic party with thick grassroots will pay attention. I'm not talking about giving money to the DLC or even the DNC. I mean participating in state and local Dem activities, funding good candidates, and helping out campaigns of the candidates who share your ideals.

Should Dr. Dean not get the nomination, turn that energy into active membership in the Democratic party in your state. You will be amazed by what you can do by being part of the party.

[Hoosier Democrat]

64. Very Intriguing Idea...

As I have said repeatedly, I cannot vote for John Kerry. Maybe if the Deanites do move to a third party (either Green, Reform, or start a new one), Al From and his ilk will get the message.

As for all the whining about "Leaving the Democratic Party will get Bush elected..". Guess what? By nominating our own version of Bob Dole, we have guaranteed ourselves four more years of madness. Yes, I know the polls show it's close now. By the time KKKarl Rove is done, Kerry will make Dukakis look like a stellar choice.

[lancdem]

66. Dean has no interest in bolting the party because he's a Dem

why would you? Unless, of course, you want Bush to win another term. Then it makes perfect sense. :eyes:

[question everything]

68. Brilliant idea... to ensure four more years of Bush

and perhaps a total dominance by the Republican party in all branches of government for decades to come.

And when someone you love dies for lack of medical insurance or because s/he "maxed up," when every one that you know works in the "service" industry, when oil is drilled in Alaska, when pollution laws are "eased," when your parents have to cut on heating and food to get medical help, when women are forced to carry pregnancies to term, when homosexuals are put in jail, when just questioning the actions of government put one on notice for being subversive - I hope that you can be happy, smug and say: but I did not vote for Kerry.

[BurtWorm]

72. I have to say that Dean movement people don't want Bush elected

and they don't want the GOP to tighten its control over all of American politics. A lot of us just think that the Democratic PArty as it is is doing an abysmal job of preventing all of the above from happening. A lot of us think Democratic centrism--whether sincere or merely political--is to blame for a large part of the state the country is in because it accepts too much of Republicanism and doesn't stand up for Democratic values. So we don't really need lectures from other Democrats about the dangers of our position. Our position, as far as I can tell, is to stop the rot in Washington and in the Democratic Party.

[Emillereid]

76. I already said I will vote for Kerry in November --

I'll work for him throughout the campaign because I know this election is critical. But after that I want to be part of a political party that actually reflects my beliefs -- if the democratic party can be changed, I'll stay. But in the future I want to vote my hope, not my fears.

[question everything]

120. You will have to change the Constitution

to a different form of government.

I know that it has a name and I am drawing a blank. You have this form of government in many European countries. The difference is that Representatives to the legislative body are elected according to the proportion of the votes. You do not have winners takes all.

You vote for a party, not for a candidate though, of course, you know who the candidates of your precinct or county are.

This way, in a Congress of 435 people, 10 may be Greens, or some other third party. In these days this would be ideal since the country is divided so closely that these third party members of congress could yield a lot of influence, similar to when Senator Jeffords changed to an independent.

[TheStateChief]

70. Not Necessary To Start A Third Party

Kerry has embraced most of Dean's positions...that's a testament to his impact on this campaign as well as the public's view of the Doctor's electability. Sad, but true.

[ramapo]

73. Dean has already changed the Democratic Party

Dean invigorated the party and its members. If he isn't the nominee I hope he will support Kerry or whoever.

The perfect candidate isn't out there and that includes Dean and certainly Nader.

[RetroLounge]

71. No way

eom

[Vis Numar]

75. I totally support this

Dean should run as an independent, take his 15%. In 2008, The Democratic wing of the Democratic party can try again.

[Snivi Yllom]

77. maybe

but...Kerry is not a lock yet.

[krkaufman]

78. You can still form a third party

You can still form a third, fourth, fifth party without helping put George W Bush back into the White House. Rather than shoot for the moon on your first try, start building the N'th-party *after* the election.

Also, if you want your N'th-party to be successful and grow, you should focus on races/states where proportional voting is available and avoid winner-take-all situations (for the early going).

[bigtree]

81. How about calling it

the Muckraker Party?

[bloom]

84. I think the result would go against everything Dean is running for. n/t

[NashVegas]

86. I Would Consider it AFTER January 20, 2005

and not a moment before.

[deutsey]

89. I'm voting Democratic in November, regardless...but

I'm also leaving the Democratic Party, regardless. I was on my way out back when Dean's campaign brought me back. I have no regrets and I'm sticking with Dean until the convention (and beyond, if he's nominated).

However, I'm frankly back to feeling disgusted with the Democratic Party in general. It comes down to the canyon-sized divide between me and the Party...and I'm on the left side of the chasm, if you know what I mean.

I'm going to be an Independent small "d" democrat and continue doing the community organizing that the Dean campaign has helped me to begin.

Until a viable third party comes along, I suppose I'll vote for the Democrat on the ticket, but, as in all probability I will do in November, I imagine I'll be holding my nose to do so.

[mitchum]

91. Great! Using this board to shill for a third party...

[wabeewoman]

92. NO WAY!!

I want bush out first and foremost. I know in my heart and in my head Dean is the best for the country and we could move ahead and take it back for the working people. That won't happen with Kerry but he will be light years better than bush. Dean would not support that and I would never vote in a way to give bush 4 more years.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

94. I'm against it

Bad idea. Bad bad idea. Whatever "point" would be made would be forgotten ten seconds after Bush is sworn in next year. I don't like Kerry at all, but I'd vote for him with a smile before I'd ever vote third party. I want Bush GONE.

Dean's said himself he wouldn't run as a third party candidate anyway, so the matter is moot.

[tom_paine]

95. "Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it."

Some guy named Satayana said that.

[RetroLounge]

96. Again, I'll say no way

but if you did, please call it the "We gave the Democrats a backbone and John Kerry steals our ideas" party.

or not...

[WWW]

97. I just took an Apple pie out of the oven

And I am getting ready to cut it into slices. Two parties: The Dems get half, the Repubs get half. We play rock, papers, scissors in November. Winner gets the larger half.

Three parties. The Repubs get half, (because I can tell you right now these guys aren't wavering), the Dems get a fourth and your other party gets a fourth. Who wins?

This election has to be a resounding vote against Bush. There are two major parties. We have to shove it up the Repubs nose that we are the majority. It has to be so resounding that rigged voter machines and voter lists can't even play into it.

If it was one person against another in this election it would be one thing. But with so many civil liberties at stake plus the lives of Americans, I feel you have to hold your nose and vote Democrat, no matter what.

[ulysses]

98. we need another one?

Splinters of splinters. I have no problem with third parties (if that needs saying) but I don't see the point of forming *another* one based on Dean. If you're "NBD", you already have other options.

[Khephra]

99. One word

Never.

[GreenPartyVoter]

103. Not this time

We need every vote we can get to put a Dem in the WH in place of the $hrub. THEN we can focus on getting election reform, which will make it possible to get more progressives elected.

[mzmolly]

106. I agree. We need to take it one piece at a time, and election reform

is key to having a real democracy.

[Mass_Liberal]

104. NO!

Dean is a democrat. The Greens are totally inneffectual, except to help elect conservatives. The weakness of our Party is just a phase that will end. The Democratic Party is and has been a noble party that fights for Civil Liberties, and the working class.


We merely need to steer our party in the right direction, and voting 3rd party isn't gonna do it.

[Northwind]

108. I am all for it

I have written several letters to the Dean campaign urging that Dean leave the Democratic Party now and initiate an independant run. I started doing this long before Iowa. Dean can win without the Dem Party structure, if anything, the party is causing most of the problems.

NBD '04

[Ramsey]

111. Vote for the Democrat in 2004

Period. End of story.

But depending upon how that person does, should he be elected, see if the Dems can hold my loyalty or do anything they say they want to do. The past four years they have mostly beeen absysmal, and is has taken a candidate like Dean to make me hopeful again. So, we'll see.

[bowens43]

112. I would consider it

if Clark gets the nomination but otherwise I vote for the Dem nominee.

[Southsideirish]

114. I'm game! ( A 40 year+ Democrat completely disgusted w/the Dem

attempted destruction of Howard Dean.) My daze of voting Dem are over -its Green or new party.
Kerry (establishment all the way)= Bush lite

[knight_of_the_star]

115. Go ahead

If you want to hand Bush another 4 years on a silver platter.

We CANNOT be divided as this election comes up! Even the Green Party admits to that, and I am Green anyway, just not for this election due to extraordinary circumstances.

[Piperay]

116. Why not then just go

ahead and vote for chimp, 'cut out the middleman' because all you would do would be to guarantee another 4 years of hell for the country under bush. Apparently nothing was learned from what happened in 2000. :argh:

[freetempe]

117. I'm all for it!

I'm tired of having to hold my nose to vote for the lesser of two evils. I'd rather vote my conscience. I'd like to fold the Progressives in the Dem party with the Greens and start a "Progressive Party" or "Populist Party" that isn't wholly owned by special interests like the Democratic and Republican parties.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

118. Kucinich is using his candidacy to launch a progressive platform in

the party.

That is why my primary vote will be going to him. It makes MUCH MORE SENSE to weild power as a UNIONIZED group from WITHIN the party in a two party system than to create another party that simply ferrets out the left of center, the left and the further left against the RIGHT who somehow manages to hang together.

Take a lesson from Germany in the 30's. Increase power from within...don't dilute it from the outside.

Dean has done very well thus far and even if he DOESN'T get the nod, he CAN USE the group of people he has pulled together to raise hell in the party.

[Tinoire]

125. You are more patient than I NSMA. I am ready to roll out the guillotine

because I'm so tired of waiting, waiting, always waiting. With every destroyed life overseas (thanks to our gifts of NAFTA, GATT, wars, "humanitarian" interventions, coups, devaluations), I become angrier and angrier.

I am particularly discouraged this season and all I can think is "how long must I wait?" How long must the world wait? I envy your patience because I hardly have any left. These last few years have opened my eyes to too many things I wish I had never seen because they weigh heavily on my conscience as a world citizen.

[poskonig]

119. Some people love their Georgie.

Do we really want to give this guy another term in office, let DeLay stack the supreme court, and so forth?

[HuckleB]

121. No 3rd Party.

Dean won't go third party. Why would I?

[EvilJam]

122. i agree 100%!

the time is PERFECT to build a REAL strong 3rd Party!!
just perfect!!
let's do it! - evil

ps - take this test to choose yor Candidate:

http://www.presidentmatch.com/Main.jsp2?cp=main


here's what i got...

Number of Candidates: Total    8
In Your List:    8

1. Kerry    Score: 100%
Party     Democrat
Has Held Elected Office     Yes
Served in the Military     Yes

2. Kucinich    Score: 100%
Party     Democrat
Has Held Elected Office     Yes
Served in the Military     No

3. Dean    Score: 97%
Party     Democrat
Has Held Elected Office     Yes
Served in the Military     No

4. Sharpton    Score: 97%
Party     Democrat
Has Held Elected Office     No
Served in the Military     No

5. Clark    Score: 91%
Party     Democrat
Has Held Elected Office     No
Served in the Military     Yes

6. Edwards    Score: 85%
Party     Democrat
Has Held Elected Office     Yes
Served in the Military     No

7. Lieberman    Score: 73%
Party     Democrat
Has Held Elected Office     Yes
Served in the Military     No

8. Bush    Score: 18%
Party     Republican
Has Held Elected Office     Yes
Served in the Military     Yes

about what i expected. and, Dean and Kucinich would make for strong Candidates with whom to form the new Party!
bring in Golisano from my state, and a few other Dems and 'Pubs and we're off to a fine start! i personally like Dean-McCain, but probably McCain would want it the other way around.
the time is ripe for a 3rd Party! peeps are sick of this same ol' same ol'! and, i'm sick of losing! - evil

[ozone_man]

123. Dean/Kucinich Independents for 2004.

That would be a good ticket, athough any ticket with Dean in it will do. :-) I will forgive DK for swapping votes for Edwards if he comes clean.

I really think that now is the time to strike while the iron is hot. If we have a contest between two bonesman, the odds are that a bonesman will win. And the opportunity to make a real change in the system may not arise again for a while.

[oxymoron]

127. Incredibly bad idea.

Unless of course you're just a bad loser.

[Lexingtonian]

128. I suggest

naming it The Bourgeois Riot Party.

There is no other principle it is consistent on, as far as I can tell.

:D

[Hekate]

129. Don't start a 3rd party at the top

It doesn't work that way. It can't work when all the power and money are concentrated in the two-party system.

The Greens are actually making headway in small local elections, and I believe that's how it can be done -- incidentally, that's how the Xian-rightists got their political base going. School board to city council. City council to state assembly. State assembly to state senate. State senate to US House of Reps or US Senate. You have to build the base first, and I believe it is absolutely do-able to rise from there.

People like me are not going to throw away our votes trying to make a point during a life-and-death struggle like the election of 2004. That's where Nader completely lost my respect in 2000. I don't blame him for the Florida and SCOTUS debacle, but he and his supporters sure didn't help matters, either. Screw making a point: the only way we can get Bush out of office in 2004 (or even God forbid in 2008) is by electing a Democrat, because the Democratic Party is where the money and power are when it comes to electing a president.

Go Dean! or Edwards -- or Clark -- anyone but Bush

Hekate

[IndianaGreen]

130. The Greens are reactionary and are not the solution

The Greens play a reactionary political role, opposing the development of a socialist movement based on the working class in favor of the formation of a third capitalist party. As the record of the Green Party in Germany has demonstrated, once the Greens begin to achieve influence in bourgeois politics they quickly discard their initial radicalism. The former pacifists in the German Greens paved the way for the first overseas deployment of German troops since World War II. In California, Green candidate Peter Camejo backed the right-wing-inspired recall campaign and ended up tacitly supporting a vote for the main Democratic candidate, Cruz Bustamante.

In the 2004 campaign, these left-talking politicians will once again seek to put off the critical question of establishing the political independence of the working class from both big business parties. They will seek to divert the mass opposition to Bush behind whichever candidate emerges from the Democratic nomination contest. They all subscribe to the position of “anyone but Bush,” as though Bush were the only weapon of American capitalism, rather than one of many instruments of the ruling elite.

All such “lesser evil” politics are truly a dead end for the working class. There is no shortcut in the struggle against imperialist war and social reaction. It is necessary to undertake now the construction of an independent, mass socialist party. It is to provide a framework and focus for this struggle that the Socialist Equality Party is running in the 2004 elections.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jan2004/stat-j27.shtml

[Printer70]

131. I will support such a party- even if it's Green

The Green party could provide a third option or perhaps an independent candidacy by Nader. I won't vote the "lesser evil".

[JNelson6563]

132. I've got a better idea

Let's take the Democratic party back. Here in Michigan that is exactly what we are doing. Many Dean supporters have been bitten by the bug and want to get activily involved. Those Dem boards who think they are smart in keeping their little kingdom off-limits to newly interested parties are now finding themselves battling hostile over-throws. They desere it. It takes a special kind of stupid not to view paty building/growth as a good thing.

Delightful stuff really. Join us.

Julie

[zoeyfong]

133. The Democratic Party is dead. Long live the Democratic Party.

The democratic party, as presently organized and led, is taking its last breath. The rot, however, has already set in. The party's abandonment of its most sacred, core values and repeated abuse of the very people it depends on for its strength and survival will prove to be fatal in few short months, it appears. There will not be any need to form another party, though, I think; as the old edifice crumbles, the new and vigorous democratic wing of the party simply needs to continue pursuing its rightful leadership position, from exile if need be. This may require the writing in of a candidate's name in the upcoming presidential contest, but to be sure, it will be a Democratic candidate's name.

[MoonAndSun]

134. No, Dean would not support or endorse a 3rd party, he is a Democrat,

just like I am. I would rather try and change the party from within.

[Stuckinthebush]

135. I'm a Democrat first - a Dean supporter second

I like Dean. I am sad that he is fading. I am pissed that the media Gored him. I think he would have made a wonderful president.

I will not leave the Democratic Party because more of my fellow Democrats choose someone else. I will not take my ball and go home.

There is so much more a stake here. Let's nip this third party junk in the bud and support our party.

[LizW]

136. Not yet. n/t

[Mile Hi]

137. The Democrats

Are part of the problem.

Bush could not do all he has done without Democratic help.

Look at the Dems that voted for the Health care bill
Voted for the Patriot Act
Voted for the IWR

The Dems in office only think about winning their next election so they vote for your vote they don't vote for whats right

[CabalBuster]

139. A "Reform" Party is badly needed

We need to reform the democratic party and take it back from the Republican lites that have run it in later years. We need to go back to true democratic ideas and not to sell out to big corporate interests. Kerry winning the nomation will be victory for big interests and the status quo.