John Kerry/Jane Fonda smear

[pinkpops]

in my local paper. I have been leaning Clark, my buddy at work is a vet and likes Kerry. I like Kerry too, and Dean, and DK and Sharpton - no ax to grind from my side... just looking for perspective. I'll find a web link if anyone wants to see it, but there are plenty out there from various sources.

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. That's just a taste of what's to come

if Kerry is the nominee. I bet KKKRove has a copy of Kerry's first book..."The New Soldier" is it? I'm sure he has "choice" excerpts ready and waiting.

Go Wes!

[Dark Star]

2. I agree.

Kerry has a lot to deal with; I really think Clark can win!

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. He sure does have a lot to deal with...

then throw in his IWR, Patriot Act and NCLB votes and NOT showing up to vote on the "overtime" bill. Egads! Burnt toast, I say!

Go Wes!

[sangh0]

27. Those really hurt Kerry in Iowa and NH

Please keep reminding everyone about those votes! I just love tthe way the attacks worked in IA and NH

[bigtree]

66. ooooo!

The republicans will get us!
:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:

[isbister]

3. Jane Fonda

might not be the most beloved figure in America today but she has done a lot to work her way back from the hated figure she once was. Just a thought.

[deminflorida]

5. Oh, I have nothing against Jane Fonda...

But, is this the type of candidate that we want in the general election....They will compare Kerry to Jane Fonda. They CAN and WILL do that. What part of that does anyone here not understand.

We're supposed to be picking the best guy to beat Bush, but the Dukakis ass kicking just never really sunk in did it?

It will this time maybe....and if the party does this and it doesn't work, Democrats really need to think about moving the primary system away from the early bird N.H. scenario. New England produces too many DEAD-DUCK, DOA, Candidates in General Elections.

[isbister]

19. the Dukakis ass kicking

Oh, I think it did. I think Kerry got a good look at what happened there and what happened in 2000.

As long as Susan Estrich remains on Fox we'll be fine no matter who gets nominated :-)

[slinkerwink]

23. if he got a good look in 2000, then why did he tell us to stop crying in

our teacups?

[JVS]

30. Wouldn't want Gore to run in 2004 and spoil his ambition

Better to let gore go down as a loser in the public image, tell us serfs to get over it and clear the way for the golden age of Kerry

[Leilani]

94. Well I do

I despise Jane Fonda, for my own reasons, re Vietnam POW's.
I don't think Kerry can really be smeared by this. At worst, I
read she financed some of the protest things he was involved in.

Clark is my guy, but Kerry went to war, he fought honorably, which is more than all the chicken hawk Repukes can say.

[Tim_in_HK]

8. Are you talking about

Aerobics videos? Or marrying and divorcing Ted Turner?

What's Jane Fonda been up to?

[Dark Star]

15. I would guess Kerry's

throwing away his medals and activity in Vietnam Vets Against The War coupled with Hanoi Jane will make for some potent republican ads.

Won't happen with Clark!

[bigtree]

91. Guess is right

Douglas Brinkley article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A766-2004Jan8¬Found=true


"Deming, N.M.: There was criticism from veterans of John Kerry for discarding his war medals in a public ceremony in protest against the Viet Nam War, and then further criticism that he discarded fake medals and not his actual medals. To me, it was the symbolism that mattered, and not that he was protesting our troops but he was protesting our policies in Viet Nam. Do you have further information regarding this controversial part of his life, and what is your take on what happened?

Douglas Brinkley: First off Kerry actually returned his ribbons not his medals on the steps of the capital. Other veterans who could make it to the D.C. march gave Kerry their medals to toss away. There has been a great deal of confusion about all of this and I explain it with great clarity in Tour of Duty.

The Nixon White House was desperate to destroy John Kerry, he was too tall, too articulate, too handsome and too decorated a soldier to be denouncing their Vietnam policies. You couldn't write him off as an LSD crazed anarchist of hippy. The FBI started harassing Kerry and infiltrated Vietnam Veterans Against the War."

[isbister]

16. I don't think she's

as hated in America as she once was, that's all.

[JVS]

31. The creed is passed down among generations

[Jerseycoa]

45. I hate to say this

I REALLY hate to say this. In the men's room of my brother's Marine Corps League post, they have laminated photos of Jane Fonda inside the urinals. They've been posted there since the Vietnam War and are replaced as needed. True story.

[JaneQPublic]

48. Was this the picture?

http://www.screamingeagle326.com/v37.htm

[Jerseycoa]

53. I haven't looked in a while

The first time I saw it, I insisted on being shown, it was a Barbarella photo. But about ten years ago, the last time, it was something like a target, so it may have been that one. My brother is a Korean War vet. I can see some Viet era vets having more complex feelings, but the older guys only have one. It's the most enduring hatred for an individual as symbol I've ever witnessed. These guys still raise a glass at the bar to "Piss on Hanoi Jane." My brother doesn't like Kerry or Clark, by the way, or any liberal Democrat who ever lived except me. I have another brother, Army vet who also served in Korea, who I have softened up a little, but the ex-Marine, we last fought the Vietnam War about a month ago, the same as it ever was.

[Leilani]

95. I believe it.

The intense hatred remains among many.

[Eloriel]

52. She certainly is among a small but VERY vocal number of

people, most of them Vietnam Vets.

[Myra]

6. There's a difference between a smear and an embarassing truth.

Clark's been the target of smears, i.e., falsehoods/lies/distortions.
If this Fonda stuff comes out about Kerry, that's an a truth he
may not want revealed, but it's fair game.

[diamondsoul]

7. Err, 'scuse me, but I seriously doubt

John Kerry made broadcasts against his fellow soldiers from behind enemy lines as Jane Fonda did. I seriously doubt he went out of his way to obliterate the morale of his colleagues the way Jane Fonda did, and I seriously doubt he went to Canada, looked into a Camera and said "Americans are stupid. They'll believe anything they're told!" as Jane Fonda did just after the invasion of Iraq.

No valid comparison to be made there, sorry.

[Atlant]

9. Nowadays. what difference does it matter whether or not it's true?

If the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy starts talking about it,
the truth or falsehood of it won't matter one whit.

Atlant

[bigtree]

55. So, let's not defend the protesters of that dirty war against smears.

Let's finish Nixon's dirty work for him. God rest the old crumb.

I know where folks can go to find trash like this to smear good Democrats with. It's called the RNC. The Jane Fonda tripe would be more than welcome there.

[David Zephyr]

100. Thanks.

Exactly.

[Tim_in_HK]

10. No, what he did do

is then pose in a picture with her with his arm around her.

Listen, I don't mind Kerry (but do prefer Clark), but it's hard to imagine that this picture will be ignored, or that it would be benign. It would be embarrasing, and bringing up feelings from a time that people would rather just forget.

[JaneQPublic]

12. Try Googling "John Kerry" with "Jane Fonda"

Browsing through these items, you'll learn that the 1970's anti-war group that Kerry helped organize -- Vietnam Veterans Against the War -- was in part bankrolled by Jane Fonda. So, there is a valid connection to be drawn between the two people.

Now, to find how the right-wing is using this fact to bash Kerry, try Googling "John Kerry" with "Hanoi Jane."
It's not pretty.

[isbister]

21. Try Googling bush for that time period

there's nothing there because he was AWOL, on a Florida beach boozing it up and chasing women.

[JaneQPublic]

24. That argument went nowhere in the 2000 election...

...and if you remember, Chimpy was running against a Vietnam veteran that year, as well.

Only, when Gore returned from Vietnam, he didn't participate in an anti-war group funded by Jane Fonda.

[bigtree]

58. anti-war group funded by Jane Fonda?

Give proof for this that doesn't rely on hearsay or innuendo.

No proof? Then it's bullshit. Plain and simple.

[mopinko]

43. talk about your elecatable guys, eh np

[bigtree]

57. Wrong! Valid connection to be drawn between Fonda and the organization

Not John Kerry!

I challenge anyone to come up with a picture, statement, or anything that directly puts John Kerry beside Fonda. Anything other than innuendo or guilt by association with the veteran's group he was involved in.

If not than I expect good Democrats to defend against these smears or your candidate may be next in line for a republican attack. Who will stand with you? I will stand with you, if you stand with me against this hurtful smear.

Does anyone here realize what this does to the hearts and souls of Vietnam veterans to rehash this crap? Does anyone care?

Is electing your candidate more important than refusing to open old wounds from that horrible war? Old divisions? John Kerry speaks of camraderie and reconciliation. What is our contribution here to that endeavor? Muckraking to further our candidate. Is it possible to demonstrate any compassion for these veterans who put their reputations on the line to try to stop Nixon's bloody war? Are we so crass and uncaring that we would drag our nation's veterans through this again? Where is the love?

[JaneQPublic]

67. WP Transcript: Historian Douglas Brinkley on Kerry & Vietnam

The author of the John Kerry book "Tour of Duty":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A766-2004Jan8¬Found=true

Douglas Brinkley: No. I'm simply a historian trying to tell a story about America in the 19760s and 70s. My book is based on primary research. Certainly when I began the book, which was before Kerry announced his candidacy for president, I was aware that he was a well-known public figure. It would have been impossible for me to have written Tour of Duty without the full cooperation of John Kerry, but you have to remember that the Vietnam War was very complex. When I am writing a story in my book about John Kerry's Swift boat accidentally killing innocent civilians this is not meant to enhance his campaign. When I write about Kerry standing on the back of a pickup truck with Jane Fonda criticizing the US government that is not necessarily a positive story for a campaign. I could give you dozens of examples.

[bigtree]

74. Hearsay from a writer

Is that the best that you can produce? Hearsay?

[JaneQPublic]

75. The book was written with "the full cooperation of John Kerry."

It say so right there in the transcript.

Besides, "Tour of Duty" is essentially Kerry's campaign book. Interviews with the author, Douglas Brinkley, are featured on Kerry's campaign website.

If it the book was inaccurate, why is Kerry plugging it?

[bigtree]

77. Innuendo

The bit about Fonda is hearsay in the book and unsubstantiated by anything except that hearsay.

[JaneQPublic]

81. "Kerry standing on the back of a pickup truck with Jane Fonda...

...criticizing the US government."

This episode in Kerry's life is written by Douglas Brinkley, a historian who based this book on numerous interviews with Kerry himself, as with recorded interviews with other persons in Kerry's lives.

In fact, Kerry even handed over his personal journals for Brinkley to write this book. Just check out the article from "Publishers Weekly":
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060565233/qid=1075752657/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5662237-8019010?v=glance&s=books

[bigtree]

83. It was Brinkley's book

These were his constructions. He provides nothing more than hearsay for his assertions of connections between Fonda and John Kerry. When he speaks in the article of dozens of examples he was speaking to his willingness to criticize John in the book. He was speaking to his independence from Sen. Kerry.

The book is mostly flattering. You should purchase one and see what a great man John Kerry is. Brinkley apparently thinks so.

[mopinko]

70. true

so not pretty. talk about someone with baggage for rove to unpack.
we are still fighting the sixties battles here. i think that was what the whole clinton thing was about. make love not war.
the sad thing is that i could EASILY vote for that john kerry, if he were still around.
supporters (not maniacs, you are all on my ignore list) if you have any evidence that the old john kerry is out there, it would raise my opinion of him.
and yes, yes, abb. in the ge.

[Myra]

14. I direct your attention to posts #10 and 11, and again make a distinction

between a smear and an inconvenient truth.

[stuzzy]

11. If this is true...

and there are pictures of him and Fonda together during that time period. You can be assured they will appear. My dad was in 'Nam and he can't stand her, like a lot of veterans of that war. This won't kill Kerry, but it will hurt him with the veterans who are unaware of it. In my humble opinion of course. It would hurt him with me also. Jane Fonda is a traitor. Period.

[stuzzy]

13. Also

Atlant is right. This picture will be all over the place. The truth doesn't enter into it unfortunately. All America will see is John Kerry cuddling up to the traitorous wench and the republicans will play that up to the hilt. I hope he's ready for this one. I have nothing against him, I'm for Dean myself, just hope he's preparing himself IF he wins.

ABB baby!

[bigtree]

80. Context from the article about Brinkley's book

Douglas Brinkley: John Kerrey vehemently denounced the Vietnam War as being immoral and unjust. As leader of The Vietnam Veterans Against the War, he even led a protest march to Washington, D. C. called Dewey Canyon III. This was to protest not just the Nixon Administration's widening the war into Laos but also the entire history of U.S. intervention in Southeast Asia. Although it is a little talked about fact, John Kerry was arrested in Concord, Mass. for protesting the war and there is a picture of him being escorted by police with his hands behind his head in my book.

_______________________

Washington, D.C. : Prof. Brinkley,
How involved-active have you been in Sen. Kerry's campaign? Do you see yourself working in a Sclessinger/Kennedy role at all? ie. Serving as a "bridge" to academic or intellectual communities on behalf of the Senator. Thank You. (loved Majic Bus)

Douglas Brinkley: No. I'm simply a historian trying to tell a story about America in the 19760s and 70s. My book is based on primary research. Certainly when I began the book, which was before Kerry announced his candidacy for president, I was aware that he was a well-known public figure. It would have been impossible for me to have written Tour of Duty without the full cooperation of John Kerry, but you have to remember that the Vietnam War was very complex. When I am writing a story in my book about John Kerry's Swift boat accidentally killing innocent civilians this is not meant to enhance his campaign. When I write about Kerry standing on the back of a pickup truck with Jane Fonda criticizing the US government that is not necessarily a positive story for a campaign. I could give you dozens of examples. The book does help Kerry's campaign however in the sense that it illuminates both his sense of patriotic duty for joining the US Navy and his moral conscience for later denouncing the US government's involvement in Vietnam. But I am a great admirer of Arthur Schlessenger Jr and to even be associated with his name is a compliment.

The Nixon White House was desperate to destroy John Kerry, he was too tall, too articulate, too handsome and too decorated a soldier to be denouncing their Vietnam policies. You couldn't write him off as an LSD crazed anarchist of hippy. The FBI started harassing Kerry and infiltrated Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

[diamondsoul]

18. Well first, thanks to all who clarified the connection-

Second, I think this could be fought on Kerry's side, though.

He could put it forth as "I may not like what you say/how you say things, but I'll defend to the death your right to say them.". In Kerry's case it would carry even more weight because he did fight to defend freedom. Then again, I'm an idealistic Kucinich backer, so what do I know! :shrug: :evilgrin:

[mikehiggins]

35. I got in trouble around here a few arguments ago because I

brought this issue up so I'm not going to go into it again.

Except...

I consider this a loaded gun held at the head of the Kerry campaign, and our chances to win in November. "defend your right to say them" is a good principle to follow BUT when you do you have to be prepared for the consequences to you as well.

Kerry embraced "Hanoi Jane" and that is something that cannot be "nuanced" into a positive.

The Democratic Party ignores it at OUR risk.

[bigtree]

69. You can't get off that easy mike

Nowhere can you find John Kerry embracing Fonda. Nowhere!

Defend your party against these smears, don't perpetuate them.

[mikehiggins]

84. I have nothing to say to you that has not been said already n/t

[bigtree]

92. dish it out

but ...

[Eloriel]

54. And what about the Jane Fond financing of his organization?

Just how will you spin that one?

[bigtree]

59. The organization was not John Kerry's. He was a member.

The organization did God's work by exposing Nixon's bloody war. No Democrat should back off of that fact. The men and women in that veteran's group preformed the highest patriotism to the country by helping end the mindless aggression against the Vietnamese people.

Anyone here defending Nixon's war? Anyone here think that war shouldn't have been protested? Would anyone here have stood up with John and the other veterans and camped out in Washington in defiance of Nixon. Does anyone here wish they could have been helpful in exposing the horrors of our involvement there?

Would anyone here have stood up as a decorated soldier against that war with no concern for your reputation?

[Jerseycoa]

64. "He was a member."

He was a co-founder, not just a member. I respect John Kerry and his service and his protest. This is a discussion about the ex-military vote in this election. It's valid. But your post brings up another question. Do you know the nature of Kerry's vet support? Clearly, he has significant support among veterans. Are most of them Viet era, possibly ex-VVAW? How is his support among older vets?

FYI, my first husband was VVAW, and I opposed the war even as he served.

Think first before you make sweeping charges like this one:

"Anyone here defending Nixon's war? Anyone here think that war shouldn't have been protested? Would anyone here have stood up with John and the other veterans and camped out in Washington in defiance of Nixon. Does anyone here wish they could have been helpful in exposing the horrors of our involvement there?"

[JaneQPublic]

68. Boston Globe: Kerry "became the face of the organization"

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml

After working behind the scenes and making a few little-noticed appearances at rallies, Kerry joined a group called Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Some thought the group was marginal; others mocked its connection to Jane Fonda, who had earned enmity by visiting North Vietnam. In January 1971, the organization held a series of hearings in Detroit called the "Winter Soldier Investigation," but Kerry did not speak at the event, which received only modest press coverage. Kerry wanted a bigger stage, and he wanted the top role.

During private conversations with other group leaders, Kerry suggested that a veterans rally be held on the Mall in Washington, an effort Kerry hoped would refute Nixon's charge that the protesters were mostly college "bums."

"It was my sense that it wasn't going to be heard unless we went to a place where the issue was joined," Kerry said. "It was my idea to come to Washington. It was my idea to do the march. I floated that idea at the Detroit meeting. We all decided to make it happen. I became the unofficial coordinator-organizer."

Some members of the antiwar group viewed Kerry as an opportunist. He hadn't testified during the Winter Soldier hearings, hadn't organized the group, yet now he was seeking to become the coordinator and spokesman. But plenty of veterans also realized Kerry - erudite and clean-cut - was the ideal foil for those who viewed the group as hippie traitors or even communists. So Kerry became the face of the organization, and a media sensation.

[bigtree]

76. From the Globe article

Kerry joined a group called Vietnam Veterans

Some thought the group was marginal; others mocked its connection to Jane Fonda,

"It was my idea to come to Washington. It was my idea to do the march. I floated that idea at the Detroit meeting. We all decided to make it happen. I became the unofficial coordinator-organizer."

What's wrong with his march to Washington?

What significance is it to any alleged relationship to Fonda is it that Kerry became the face of the organization?

[bigtree]

71. Don't give me this crap

There is nothing but hatred in these posts for a man who stepped up and opposed Nixon's bloody war. Maybe you have sensitivity but this is not a debate about what republicans will do to John. Fuck them. If we don't stand up against shit like this then they will walk over all of us.

As to John Kerry's involvement in the group, he may have helped found it but he was one of many who volunteered there. He should not be singled out like Nixon tried to and have his character assasinated. There has been no no no direct link between any of Fonda's activities except oblique references to Fonda's funding of the veteran's organization. This campaign against him on this and other threads for his supposed association with Fonda are based on hearsay, innuendo, and half-truths.

It is a campaign that would make Nixon proud. So stand up for John. He stood for you.

[JaneQPublic]

73. Kerry's book, Tour of Dury, mentions him being with Fonda

See post #67 for a transcript of an interview with the author.

[bigtree]

85. The transcript refers to hearsay not proof.

[Jerseycoa]

79. It's really too bad

In more recent times, it was a Sunday morning, that Kerry failed to defend another Vietnam vet war hero, Clark, against the RW/media and failed to defend Michael Moore's right to free speech, when he had the perfect opportunity. He seen his opportunity and he took it -- against Dem values -- because it was politically expedient.

ABB in November :hi:

[ShaneGR]

42. And where was Dr. Dean during this time period???

I hear there was plenty of snow on the ground in ski country.

[mikehiggins]

86. The RNC cannot use this charge against Dean. Apparently

he didn't much have an opinion about VietNam at the time, except he didn't want to go.

The point of this discussion is that Kerry's activities in the anti-war movement will be used at every opportunity to discredit him.

This issue was never particularly important, running for Senator in Massachusetts, but in a national election against an incumbent president it will be hammered time and time and time again.

And how can it be refuted? It is a fact, well documented and acknowledged by Senator Kerry and his biographers. It will come as a surprise to an awful lot of voters in the general election and it will cast a shadow over Candidate Kerry which might bring us all down.

That is the point.

[bigtree]

89. Has it occurred to you that most Americans think that war was wrong?

Those Americans will be enamored of a decorated veteran who stood up to Nixon to end that dirty war.

[deminflorida]

17. This is what they will use, and it will work to!!!

Sen. John McCain revealed that his North Vietnamese captors had used reports of Kerry-led protests to taunt him and his fellow prisoners. Retired General George S. Patton III angrily noted that Kerry’s actions had “given aid and comfort to the enemy.”

In recent years when Kerry has exploited the Vietnam Veterans Memorial for photo opportunities on Veterans Day, some veterans, still outraged by his betrayal, have turned their backs on him.

[deminflorida]

20. You see Kerry really has no Veterans Appeal...

and if you take away the veteran image, all you have left is Michael Dukakis's Lt. Governor. - A NEW ENGLAND LIBERAL.

Now you can clearly see why they need to stop Clark and promote Kerry at all costs.

[bigtree]

60. Do you think John Kerry's protests against Nixon's bloody war

were wrong?

That view has, through the years been the providence of republicans who supported Nixon in his actions against the Vietnamese.

Do you think the U.S. was right to kill millions of Vietnamese for the reasons Nixon set forth. Not many in our party did then or do now.

If this line of attack succeeds it will rip open a festering wound and will scar us all. At the end we will conclude that we should not have fought that bloody war of aggression and that those who did support that war were painfully wrong.

But the country has had this debate already. And some wounds are beginning to heal. Don't stir around in this muck. It will sully us all.

[Strelnikov_]

38. While I Support Kerry's Right To Protest

My great fear is that, in the GE, his post-war stance will alienate as many veterans as his military service will draw to him. To win the GE we need to win a majority of the 10% 'swing' vote. If past history is any judge the swing vote is not very knowledgeable regarding the issues and highly susceptible to being swayed by right-wing smear tactics. I just feel that Kerry's history, although honorable, is going to provide too great a wealth of contrasts to the right-wing media machine.

[Eloriel]

56. I don't think his history is so honorable

For one thing, there are some who claim that what he did in Nam to earn him those medals was a war crime.

There are other things that concern me greatly, one in particular I read but don't have the link for so I'll wait til I find the link.

[bigtree]

87. Senators John Kerry (D-MA) and John McCain (R-AZ),

http://www.edf.org/pressrelease.cfm?ContentID=1794

(8 March, 2002 -- Washington) Environmental Defense today praised a new bipartisan fuel economy proposal, unveiled late Thursday by U.S. Senators John Kerry (D-MA) and John McCain (R-AZ), as an innovative way to save oil and address air pollution, while at the same time providing automakers with important flexibility in meeting those goals.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/69341_means7.shtml

WASHINGTON -- For political theater, you can't beat the combination of Sens. John Kerry, D-Mass., and John McCain, R-Ariz.

The two Vietnam veterans were honored recently by the state of Washington's Legislature with a proclamation thanking them for their work with veterans. The pair accepted their certificates at a jolly luncheon on Capitol Hill Thursday.

They are close friends, with a similar independent streak, who have overseen the sometimes contentious congressional efforts to restore a normal relationship with Vietnam. They have worked together on other issues as well.

"He'll talk longer than I will," McCain joshed at the luncheon, "because he's a wannabe and I'm a has-been."



http://www.getdonkey.com/archives/000381.php

The partnership is so tight, in fact, that insiders in both camps are speculating about the pair teaming for a 2004 presidential ticket, according to a source close to the buzz -- even without McCain switching parties, as Beltway rumors have previously hinted.

[bigfishsmallpond]

22. John Kerry/Sean Penn smear

that would be much more creative
it would be some new material for the rabid right. the 30 year old stuff is really dated.

maybe Penn will endorse Kerry
whoops, Kerry voted for IWR so ain't gonna happen
but maybe Penn is really hardcore ABB, so he'll look the other way.

:silly:

[JaneQPublic]

25. John Kerry and Morgan Fairchild stories would go even farther...

...since the two actually dated.

[mikehiggins]

37. The people who lived through that 30 year old stuff are still around

and still voting.

And they are not "rabid right" at all. They are the same kind of people you see clustered around Kerry at his latest rallies, except they aren't on that stage and never will be.

[OKNancy]

26. It seems the dittoheads

are all in a tither. They say there is some photo out there, but can't find it..if it even existed.

Best they can do is this book cover.

[Tim_in_HK]

28. Please provide a link to your paper

if possible.

I can't find this photo online. thks.

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. The Boston Herald has a mention

According to e-mail postings and articles on the growing number of websites denouncing Kerry, the deepest anger at the front-runner comes from his role leading Vietnam Veterans Against the War in demonstrations in the early `70s, including a Washington protest where he tossed his ribbons into the trash but held onto his medals. His descriptions of US soldiers committing rape, torture, and other atrocities in Vietnam, during his famous speech in April 1971 to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, also drew condemnation. More recently, he and McCain were pilloried by some veterans' groups for ending POW investigations in Vietnam and helping to normalize US- Vietnam relations in the mid-1990s.

``I as a Vietnam veteran will do my utmost to see that JF Kerry is never elected,'' one veteran wrote in an e-mail Friday to a list on Sampley's website. A Marine wrote: Kerry ``did go and he did participate in combat. He earned the right to speak out. But he still won't get my vote.''

On Thursday, Terry L. Garlock, a decorated Cobra helicopter pilot in Vietnam, wrote in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution that Kerry's antiwar protests were comparable to actress Jane Fonda's infamous visit to Hanoi in 1972, and warned readers about ``the dark side of Kerry's war record.''

``Kerry's public actions encouraged our enemy at a time they were killing America's sons,'' Garlock wrote. ``Many Vietnam veterans have taken notice, and many of us will vigorously oppose Kerry's election to any office.''

more: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/02/01/as_campaign_heats_up_veterans_taking_sides/

[Tim_in_HK]

32. Thanks

But does anyone have a copy of the photo? I think that would be particularly damaging.

[bigtree]

72. That story can't be trusted because it lies about what John said

Here is the full statement which clearly shows that those comments were distorted. The rest of the article is tainted by the lie.


Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations
April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term Winter Soldier is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriots and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out....

In our opinion and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone in peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Viet Cong, North Vietnamese or American.

We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how monies from American taxes were used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by the flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs and search and destroy missions, as well as by Viet Cong terrorism - and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

We watched the United States falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings." We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater. We watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the hill for reoccupation by the North Vietnamese. We watched pride allow the most unimportant battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point, and so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 81s and Fire Base 6s, and so many others.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese.

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?....We are here in Washington to say that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country - the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions such as the use of weapons; the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search and destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say. It is part and parcel of everything.

An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of Alcatraz put it to me very succinctly. He told me how as a boy on an Indian reservation he had watched television and he used to cheer the cowboys when they came in and shot the Indians, and then suddenly one day he stopped in Vietnam and he said, "my God, I am doing to these people the very same thing that was done to my people," and he stopped. And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this thing has to end.

We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We're here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others? Where are they now that we, the men they sent off to war, have returned? These are the commanders who have deserted their troops. And there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The marines say they never even leave their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They've left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching behind them in the sun in this country....

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission - to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so when thirty years from now our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.

[incapsulated]

33. Jane isn't the lightning rod she used to be

Raise your hand if you've heard about "hanoi jane".

You're getting old, arent you? :P

[javadu]

41. I am 34 and I have heard about this

My dad often reminds me of "Hanoi Jane." Although I am too young to remember anything about Vietnam, my dad has sent me a couple of long emails about Fonda. (He didn't write them, but I think that they were going around on some email lists he was a part of and he forwarded them to me.) They were written in a very distasteful tone and I dismissed them because they sounded like a smear. Moreover, I didn't know the facts (and still don't know all of them) and I didn't (and still don't) have the energy to care one way or another about Jane Fonda.

If, however, Kerry has links with Fonda, I find that problematic. My dad is a vietnam vet (he was in a recon unit), union guy, and has always voted democratic. If he hears about this, I think that he will probably stay home on election day. I know that he can't vote for Bush, but he will not be able to vote for an associate of Hanoi Jane either.

That is how I think my dad will see this. AS FOR ME, I have seen how the current administration spins the facts to present their case and how they question the patriotism of dissenters. As a result, I have learned to distrust history on these kinds of matters. Therefore, I don't have strong opinions about Hanoi Jane because I don't know all of the facts. I would also appreciate knowing more about the facts surrounding Hanoi Jane. I like Clark, Edwards, and Kerry (in that order), but I will gladly and proudly vote a straight democratic ticket on election day.

[bigtree]

65. Fonda had tangential ties to the anti-war organization

that John Kerry belonged to. She protested the war. Nixon's bloody war. She was extrene in her opposition. She has long since apologised.

John Kerry, on the other hand, did nothing in concert with Fonda. Never uttered her name as far as anyone has shown so far. So the link between them is nothing more than guilt by her association with his veteran's group which also happened to be protesting the war.

BTW, there was no association between any of the offensive actions of Fonda and the veteran's group that John belonged to.

But some would use that association to smear the courageous actions of John Kerry and others who sought to end Nixon's bloody war.

[mikehiggins]

88. Just look it up. References are all over the internet. n/t

[bigtree]

90. I'd like you to find a source that doesn't rely on hearsay and innuendo

to place Fonda beside John Kerry.

[JaneQPublic]

93. And if we presented a photo, you'd say it was Photoshopped (nt)

[bigtree]

96. Yet, you haven't

(t)

[paulk]

44. when I think of Jane Fonda

I think of "Barbarella".

Yes, I am getting old.

[edzontar]

98. Klute was very good too. Jane was a very talented and lovely actress

I think the "Hanoi Jane" stuff is unfair....she was motivated, above all, by compassion for an enemy that did not deserve to be atatcked by us.

[incapsulated]

101. To all those who answered

If you've heard about her Hanoi days through the net or your parents, or if you are old enough to have lived through it, my point was this isn't the big deal it used to be.

The last time this was a "big deal", from my memory, which I admit is spotty, was back in the eighties after she made "Coming Home".

I just don't think this resonates with anyone under 40 as much more than their parents history. For those who are older, the issue is fading fast, otherwise there is no way Kerry would be getting these veterans to vote for him without it being rehashed on CNN.

But, God knows I've been wrong about these things. I thought Dean's "scream" would be forgotten by the next news cycle. :silly:


Barbarella is one of my all time fave silly movies, btw. :)

[paulk]

34. The people who will respond to this kind of smear

are not going to be voting for any Democratic candidate. This could even backfire. Kerry is a decorated veteran, a genuine war hero. For many vets, that will easily outweigh this sort of scurrilous attack.

[kentuck]

36. Do you think those smears will work against Kerry??

Bush would never do them personally, but have one of his agents do the smear. They would resort to that if they thought they were losing some of their military support to Kerry. Kerry will have to hold Bush personally responsible if he lets his lieutenants try to get away with that crap.

[mikehiggins]

39. Where is the "smear"? These are all well documented charges

backed up by Kerry's own statements and writings. There are no "nuances" here. It is black and white.

Shelton's shot at Clark was a smear.

Plastering Dean's speech all over the air for days on end is a smear.

Criticising Kerry for his actions during Viet Nam? Just the fact, jack.

[JaneQPublic]

40. The Kerry/Fonda Connection Appears in Internet Encyclopedia

The encyclopedia WorldHistory.com mentions them in the entry for Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), Kerry's anti-war organization:

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/V/Vietnam-Veterans-Against-the-War.htm

Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) is a non-profit corporation originally created to oppose the Vietnam War.

--snip

VVAW was founded in New York City in 1967 after six Vietnam veterans marched together in an anti-war demonstration. As opposition to the war grew, membership in the VVAW grew from 600 members in 1970 to 7,000 in 1971. This was however a very small proportion of returning combatants. At this time, VVAW is said to have received significant financial support from Jane Fonda.

In January 1971, VVAW sponsored The Winter Soldier Investigation to gather testimony from GI's on political and military leaders' misconduct of the war. Intended as a public event, the investigation was boycotted by all mainstream media. All testimony was however read into the congressional record in April 1971, during a Senate Foreign Relations Committee enquiry into the conduct of the war.

This enquiry took place amid a week of VVAW-led demonstrations in Washington, DC. John Kerry, as VVAW spokesman, testified against the war during hearings. Meanwhile, veterans and mothers of soldiers killed in Vietnam marched to Arlington Cemetery, and veterans camped out in protest on The Mall. There was also a medal-returning demonstration on the steps of the Capitol.

[bigtree]

61. At this time, VVAW is said to have received significant financial support

This is not proof. This is hearsay and innuendo. I am stunned that you can't see the difference.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Who got smeared? Jane has backbone. Kerry doesn't.

From what I've heard, Jane spoke out against the Iraq war. Kerry voted for it.

[bigtree]

63. When your argument fails

Distract, obfuscate, change the subject.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

78. Please elucidate your obfuscation.

Kerry did vote for the war. Jane spoke out against it. Jane showed courage, Kerry folded.

The author of the original post claims that Kerry was "smeared" by being associated with Jane. My take is the opposite.

[CWebster]

47. It took months of attacks to bring down Dean-

Especially with the media working doubletime to attack him from Iowa through NH.

Kerry may have his honeymoon now but by the time the GE rolls around, well how does the pattern go? Then who will be in the position to clean up after Kerry's chin is on the curb and Bush is pumping those millions into media deregulating interests.

And we will be locked in.

[Eloriel]

49. Yes, link please

Was it the AJC? I saw a guest column by a Vietnam Vet that was quite poignant, but didn't seem to save it. I'd like to have it. But yes, link for whatever it is you've got.

[Freddie Stubbs]

82. Boston Herald has a story on it

According to e-mail postings and articles on the growing number of websites denouncing Kerry, the deepest anger at the front-runner comes from his role leading Vietnam Veterans Against the War in demonstrations in the early `70s, including a Washington protest where he tossed his ribbons into the trash but held onto his medals. His descriptions of US soldiers committing rape, torture, and other atrocities in Vietnam, during his famous speech in April 1971 to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, also drew condemnation. More recently, he and McCain were pilloried by some veterans' groups for ending POW investigations in Vietnam and helping to normalize US- Vietnam relations in the mid-1990s.

``I as a Vietnam veteran will do my utmost to see that JF Kerry is never elected,'' one veteran wrote in an e-mail Friday to a list on Sampley's website. A Marine wrote: Kerry ``did go and he did participate in combat. He earned the right to speak out. But he still won't get my vote.''

On Thursday, Terry L. Garlock, a decorated Cobra helicopter pilot in Vietnam, wrote in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution that Kerry's antiwar protests were comparable to actress Jane Fonda's infamous visit to Hanoi in 1972, and warned readers about ``the dark side of Kerry's war record.''

``Kerry's public actions encouraged our enemy at a time they were killing America's sons,'' Garlock wrote. ``Many Vietnam veterans have taken notice, and many of us will vigorously oppose Kerry's election to any office.''

more: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/02/01/as_campaign_heats_up_veterans_taking_sides/

[progressivebydesign]

50. Is she still an issue?

I have a terrible feeling that Rush Limbaugh probably mentions here weekly. It's an illness of those people. Do you think that conservative voters will care about this? I do. But.. the types that really care about this are not going to vote for a Democrat no matter what. It's the moderates, the swing voters, that matter. I wouldn't stress too much. Not that the Rush and the Hannitys of this world won't run with it. I wouldn't worry.

[TrueBlueDem]

51. "Hanoi Jane" is still an issue with the career military folks I work with.

I've know lots of Vietnam-era vets over the years, while working as a Navy contractor. And I can attest to the fact that, to this day, the mere mention of her name will cause them to rant and rave.

In fact, some guys I've worked with refused to watch CNN the entire time it was run by Ted "Mr. Hanoi Jane" Turner.

And on a humorous note, one ex-Navy co-worker (not real bright) announced with pride one day that, when he encountered a rack of Jane Fonda workout videos in the store, he bought them all up, just so he could tape over them! I'm sure Jane was crying all the way to the bank!

[bigtree]

62. Great bunch of guys

Folks we should all emulate, right? :eyes:

[edzontar]

97. OK. I'm going to defend Kerry, and Jane too, on this one.

The Vietnam war was a crime and an atrocity.

The US deserved to lose, and did.

LBJ, McNamara, Nixon, Kissinger et al are/were war criminals who deserved to spend the rest of their lives in prison.

THEY are the nes who sent American troops to die for nothing.

THEY are the ones who slaughtered millions in the name of a nation's savage pride.

Maybe Jane was naive to ley herself be used by the N Viet Goverment propagandists as as she was, but they were illegally and brutally attacked by a US government gone mad, lest we forget.

Jane was motivated, I think, by genuine feelings of shame for our nation's crimes and compassion for an "enemy" that never attacked us or offered any kind of threat to this country, but suffered literally millions of deaths and untold wounded at our hands.

Hidepus atrocities were committed by US forces in that war.

I think Kerry is a sell-out DLC BORE today, but I honor his anti-war stand.

Indeed, it is the BEST thing he ever did.

Any pukes or so-called Dems who attack him for taking that stand should be ashamed of themselves.

[mopinko]

102. i honor the "old john kerry"

and would vote for him in a heartbeat. to me, the problem with this whole issue is that his past will rile the right, and his present disgusts the left. he is a lose/lose candidate.

[iowapeacechief]

99. What does it tell us about DU...

...when we have to read almost 100 messages in a thread about Jane Fonda to find someone with the guts to say something good about her?

What is the average age here anyway?