Is it already too late ?

[kentuck]

Listening to a bit of the budget debate between Senators Conrad and Gregg, it is obvious the Republicans have learned nothing from their disastrous policies. Senator Conrad proposes that we "pay as we go" but the Republican Gregg says the Democrats only want to "raise taxes". How many more taxcuts can our country take? Yes, we can give all the wealth to those at the very top and the rest of us can agree to live in the Dark Ages for the rest of our lives. Is it too late to escape this abyss? Does it matter who the next leader will be, Democrat or Republican, unless they are willing to make radical and drastic changes in the way our government is funded or not funded?

[Lerkfish]

1. in my opinion, yes. its beyond too late.

I think we can only slide deeper into the abyss.
the only way around it is to eliminate our current republican-controlled govt., and EVEN THEN, it will take decades if not centuries to undo the damage.

[olaus]

4. In mho

the way out of this deep debt is pass the fair tax idea, everyone pays the % on new goods and services. Prices will come down, loop holes in the tax code are gone. Sure there will be some cheating, but its not like there is no cheating now. Reaching for my flame proof undies.

[Lerkfish]

5. that's putting a spongebob bandaid on a decapitation victim.

we're beyond "fair taxes" at this point doing anything to help.

[olaus]

6. So

what is your idea to solve this?

[Lerkfish]

10. I stated already I think its insoluable in the short run.

I'm not dissing you, I"m just saying taxes are such a small cog in the overall wheel that is grinding our country into bankruptcy. As long as republicans are in power, they will continue to spend on pork projects and skim money of the top for themselves and their cronies, benefitting the top 1% of population, while outsourcing jobs to virtual slave labor in China and India, while continuing to enlarge military overspending for preemptive hegemony.

personal income tax is like a single drop in the mad ocean.

the only thing that will help is to overthrow the govt, either through normal or abnormal means., the republicans are too corrupt to give up power willingly.

[gristy]

11. Before you start asking other people for their ideas

you damn well better start off trying to justify yours.

[sendero]

8. There are so many...

... so-called "fair tax" plans, I don't know which one you are talking about. If it is one of those "flat rate" plans, there ain't no fair in it.

Welcome to DU, and you won't need your asbestos undies just yet :)

[Greyhound]

13. Question; How about a flat tax that begins @ $20 per adult and say $5K

per child? Of course the numbers could be adjusted to account for the current state of the economy and would be adjusted annually to reflect the cost of living (and we need to reinstate the fixed basket of goods to reflect the true cost of living).

[mac56]

14. Are you talking about the National Sales Tax?

The "fair tax" that Neil Boortz wrote a book about? That simple fact alone should convince you that the idea is FUBAR.

More arguments against it?

We'll most likely end up with both a national sales tax and an income tax. Even if legislation requires abolition of the income tax, some “national crisis” (e.g., war on terror) will soon cause the income tax to be reinstated. And of course, bureaucracies never simply disappear. Income tax enforcers would get new life as fair tax enforcers.

The rate of the fair tax would be colossal. Its proponents admit they'll need a 23 percent tax rate to fund the current size of the federal government. However, the Brookings Institute calculates that to pay all current government expenditures while also compensating for such factors as tax evasion, the national sales tax might have to run as high as 67 percent.

Inflation will kill you. As goods become more expensive, you'll pay more in taxes or do without the things you need. As your food, clothing, vehicles, and medical care get more and more expensive, you'll pay more and more and more sales tax.

The fair tax is unfair to retirees. People who have paid 1/4 or 1/3 of their income in taxes for 40 years will now have to pay an equally high tax on all the after tax income they've managed to put aside for their retirement. Every time retirees buy anything with their lifelong savings, they'll be double taxed.

The fair tax will require a tracking of your entire financial life. How else will the government know if you're being taxed fairly? They'll then decree that it has a vital interest in knowing exactly who is buying too much unhealthy food, the “wrong” kinds or amounts of medicine, ammunition, or unapproved reading matter. Your purchases could lead to criminal investigations, denial of insurance, suspension of your drivers license, and other bureaucratic punishments.

A fair tax will create a huge black market. If people can evade a 30+ percent tax, they will. Such down home places as swap meets, farmers' markets, and garage sales will automatically become prime places for black market activity. Either the tax will eventually be extended to used items, or all such markets will be heavily regulated. And while some people keep more of their money through black-market purchases, those who play by the rules will end up paying higher taxes.

The fair tax is regressive: the poorer you are, the more you pay, proportional to your income. Sponsors of the new tax have come up with the worst possible solution for making it more “fair.” Instead of just not taxing essential items like food, health care, transportation, or clothing, they want the federal government to cut each of us a reimbursement check every month. Think of the bureaucracy! Think of the government dependence this will create!

Many industries may collapse. Just before the fair tax goes into effect, many Americans will fear that retail prices will all go up 30+ pervent to adjust for the new tax. So they'll go out in a buying frenzy. The economy will boom as Americans race out to buy cars, electronic gear, or stock up on food. Then sales will plummet. Some industries producing high-ticket items might never recover.

New homes will suddenly become 30 percent more expensive than existing ones because all new construction will be subject to the tax. Two homes could sit side-by-side – each with four bedrooms, two baths, and comparable features – and one would cost $50,000 or $100,000 more than the other, simply because it was being marketed by its builder, rather than a resident. No one would want new homes.

You'll have to have a receipt to prove you bought that can of beans, that computer, or that car “legally.” Lose your receipt and you could be required to pay that 30+ percent tax all over again – plus penalties and interest.

As it gets closer to being law, you can bet that it will get more and more complicated. What do you mean the tax is the same for bibles as it is for pornography? Are you saying that someone buying good, wholesome Iowa corn has to pay the same tax as someone who buys French wine? A poor family pays the same sales tax on baby food that a rich bachelor spends on his sports car? Voila: a thousand pages of regulations describing which custom sales tax rates apply to which items.

It's a sucky idea.

[olaus]

15. My thoughts

In your post you raise some issues against the fair tax. Here some of my thoughts on this in a paragraph by paragraph format.

1. So because some future unknown event may cause a money crunch we should oppose the fair tax? We should keep the current system just to keep people employed in their jobs?

2. I have read a lot of pro and con about the idea maybe what needs to happen is stop all these dark of the night add spending attachments(by both parties) to get the cost of Go. Down. One way to do this is if it requires spending a dime then the bill needs to stand on its own not as an attachment. I repeat BOTH parties are guilty of this.

3. The cost of goods will come down as corporations/businesses compete for the business. Inflation has always been and will always be an issue, a lot of people live right on the edge instead of looking to future.

4. Fair tax and retires this is an issue and I admit it, I am 61 and I still support the concept because I think it levels the playing field overall. In addition it puts a big dent if not major hole in the lobby game. There are not exceptions no place for someone to push for a bill that favors their favorite project.


5. I am not following this point about tracking your financial life. You pay the tax at the point of sale, if you pay cash there is no tracking. Pay today with a credit card or one of the “saver cards” and someone has your spending habits.

6. Even under the current system we have people cheating so those of us that do not pay their part of the bill. You are adding 7% + to the proposed rate tax avoidance via these types sales goes on today, ever stopped at a “sample” sale these are new goods so a tax should be collected.

7. I do not see it as regressive, what it will do is cause people to understand just how much a product really coats. Right now a lot of the cost is hidden because of corporation taxes, who pays the corporate taxes? We do raise the corporate rate and see what happens to product prices. Remove corporate taxes and the competition for the unit sale will bring the prices down.

8. There you go again inflating the proposed rate, will there be a bubble as it goes into effect, perhaps I really do know. I think it will attract news industries to build in America.

9. Again perhaps as we move into it but there will be a demand for new homes people will buy them because they have more money in their pocket. If you make $20.00 an hour you will get the $20.00 an hour in you check not the $15.00 to $16.00 you do now. ( those are ball park figures I did not calculate them)

10. Come on where did you pull this from that you would need to have receipt, there is that inflated 30% again

11. Everyone pays the same rate; you are just pulling stuff out of thin air.

I never said it was a perfect plan what we have now is far from perfect. We need to at least get this and other suggestions for real tax reform out on the talking circuit. Right now both parties use taxes and spending our money to buy votes we need to find ways to stop it. Sit down and figure out how much money the Govt. is getting of your money, federal tax, social security, Medicare/Medicaid, sales taxes. Did I miss one oh yes property taxes and maybe more.

[mac56]

16. My responses to your responses.

So because some future unknown event may cause a money crunch we should oppose the fair tax?

No. I've given you a long list of valid reasons to oppose the "fair tax". Just saying: don't be so naïve to think that the feds won't add an income tax on top of it. The current “fair tax” proposal specifically doesn’t repeal the 16th amendment.

We should keep the current system just to keep people employed in their jobs?

Not what I'm saying at all. My point is: if you think the "fair tax" will rid us of IRS bureaucrats, you’re dreaming.

I have read a lot of pro and con about the idea maybe what needs to happen is stop all these dark of the night add spending attachments(by both parties) to get the cost of Go. Down. One way to do this is if it requires spending a dime then the bill needs to stand on its own not as an attachment. I repeat BOTH parties are guilty of this.

And that’s why this’ll never be abolished in our lifetime.

The cost of goods will come down as corporations/businesses compete for the business.

Wrong for many reasons. Since raw materials will also be taxed, consumer prices of many items will go up by a much greater rate than the “fair tax” rate. The Federal Reserve Bank says that any new sales tax is going to raise prices by that amount. If the Federal Reserve accommodates it, we are going to have 30 percent inflation the year the tax is introduced. If it is not accommodated, then producer prices are going to have to fall by 30 percent, which will cause a severe recession and greatly reduce the tax yield. And with the advent of the “fair tax”, every business will turn into a tax collector. What do you think this will do to the cost of goods? And the price of foreign \goods would have no reason to drop. Have you shopped at Wal-Mart lately?

Inflation has always been and will always be an issue, a lot of people live right on the edge instead of looking to future.

So now we’ll expect them to pay extra out of pocket with each purchase? Pushing them out even more on the edge. Just because it’s already happening doesn’t mean we have to accept it.

Fair tax and retires this is an issue and I admit it,

Thanks for admitting it.

I am 61 and I still support the concept because I think it levels the playing field overall.

See my previous post. It certainly doesn’t level the playing field – it’s about as regressive a tax as you can imagine, and it double-taxes seniors particularly. Plus, how do you propose we collect the funds for Social Security? Do we continue to require businesses to collect the tax?

In addition it puts a big dent if not major hole in the lobby game. There are not exceptions no place for someone to push for a bill that favors their favorite project.

Bull. “You mean bibles get the same tax as porn? Iowa corn the same tax as French wine? Pittsburgh steel the same tax as Japanese steel? Toyotas the same tax as Chevys?” Please. Lobbyists will be wetting their pants over this opportunity.

I am not following this point about tracking your financial life. You pay the tax at the point of sale, if you pay cash there is no tracking.

That won’t last. The government wants to ensure that you’re being taxed at the correct rate, and that you’re paying every nickel. And of course, they need to be able to send your rebate check for essential items, which is what Boortz’s plan calls for. What are they going to do? Why, keep a tally of what you buy! (Boortz even suggested the use of an electronic card to track purchases.) Cash purchases will be strongly, strongly discouraged. Because buying with cash will make it easier to evade the “fair tax”, the feds will quickly conclude that buying with cash is a sure indicator of criminal activity. They already class all “large cash transactions” as “suspicious.”

Pay today with a credit card or one of the “saver cards” and someone has your spending habits.

Someone who can fine you?! Not yet, I hope.

Even under the current system we have people cheating so those of us that do not pay their part of the bill.

See above. Just because something’s already happening doesn’t mean we have to accept it.

You are adding 7% + to the proposed rate

Several studies have proven that if the “fair tax” is figured the same way all states compute sales taxes, it’ll actually be at least 30 percent. At least.

tax avoidance via these types sales goes on today,

Again: just because it’s going on now doesn’t make it okay.

ever stopped at a “sample” sale these are new goods so a tax should be collected.

So you’re agreeing with me?!

I do not see it as regressive, what it will do is cause people to understand just how much a product really coats. Right now a lot of the cost is hidden because of corporation taxes, who pays the corporate taxes? We do raise the corporate rate and see what happens to product prices. Remove corporate taxes and the competition for the unit sale will bring the prices down.

At least we agree on something. Close the corporate tax loopholes and we’d never even need the “fair tax”. Two different issues, however.

There you go again inflating the proposed rate,

See above.

will there be a bubble as it goes into effect, perhaps I really do know.

I think you meant to say you really do not know.

I think it will attract news industries to build in America.

American businesses? Doubtful. They couldn’t afford to build. Plus the tax incentives to do so would be gone. Foreign businesses? Is that what we want?

Again perhaps as we move into it but there will be a demand for new homes people will buy them because they have more money in their pocket. If you make $20.00 an hour you will get the $20.00 an hour in you check not the $15.00 to $16.00 you do now. ( those are ball park figures I did not calculate them)

If you eliminate the tax deductions for real estate, you reduce the annual return produced by the investment. The biggest reason people buy houses is that they get to deduct the mortgage interest and property taxes against other income. Bush's whole "ownership society" philosophy would go right down the toilet with the elimination of the income tax. There would also be far less incentive for businesses to build more malls, apartment buildings, etc., leading to a further depressive effect on the economy.

Come on where did you pull this from that you would need to have receipt, there is that inflated 30% again

See above.

Everyone pays the same rate; you are just pulling stuff out of thin air.

See above. Even Boortz was making special exceptions in his plan, for internet purchases and tuition.

I never said it was a perfect plan what we have now is far from perfect.

No argument here.

We need to at least get this and other suggestions for real tax reform out on the talking circuit. Right now both parties use taxes and spending our money to buy votes we need to find ways to stop it. Sit down and figure out how much money the Govt. is getting of your money, federal tax, social security, Medicare/Medicaid, sales taxes. Did I miss one oh yes property taxes and maybe more.

Some federal taxes will still be with us under the “fair tax”. You’re naïve if you think they won’t. Even Boortz slips up one time and says that the “fair tax” would "replace virtually all personal and corporate taxes." Under the current proposal, we’d still have the excise tax on gasoline and the various taxes on an airline ticket. And what about federal taxes on tobacco and alcohol? The “fair tax” will merely replace one visible tax with another, while leaving the invisible ones in place.

[Atman]

2. What on earth do you think they should have learned from?

So far, it's been do anything you damned well please, line your pockets from the U.S. Treasury, spy on your political enemies, and no one will ever get called into account.

Sounds like they learned a lot...Americans are lazy and stupid, and will not demand their representatives hold anyone accountable. Therefore, it's open season, get it now while you still have access to it, because "the people" just might wake up some day.

[FloridaPat]

3. I'd say yes. I belive the USA as we knew it is dead. * and the neocons

have killed it. The Democrats stood by and watched it happen. And most of the population were too busy watching reality TV to notice. We are in a deep financial mess which looks like it will come crashing down sooner than later. We have troops in 160 out of 190 countries. That's a lot of money. The Iranian bourse will be a disaster. The national debt will be a disaster.

[kentuck]

7. Are we being too pessimistic ?

We are presently running actual deficits of over $600 billion per year. "A billion here and a billion there and pretty soon you're talking about real money", to paraphrase Everett Dirksen, the old Republican from Illinois. How much more weight can this boat take on before it sinks? We're going to need to get the buckets and start dipping soon or we're going under, in my "pessimistic" opinion.

[sendero]

9. It isn't just the deficits/debt that have me worried..

.... it is the fact that structurally our economy is faltering in a big way.

Between outsourcing, rightsizing, massive consumer debt, a possible housing bubble bursting, high unemployment and inflation, there is simply no happy news anywhere in our economic condition.

In fact, the REASON we have these high deficits is the Fed is pumping money into the economy (albeit the wrong places) as fast as it can just to keep things marginally afloat.

We cannot operate in this mode forever. The only questions are 1) what is the next mode and 2) can we survive it :)

[kentuck]

12. Very true sendero....

The deficits are just a barometer of the other problems you have mentioned. Hillary will be a revolutionary leader, don't you think? :)

[tom_paine]

17. Yes, too late. It was too late on 12-12-2000 (RIP Free America)

It's WAY too late now.

Yet, I am not giving up (see sig line)

Rather die on my feet than live as a Bushevik Slave.

End of story.

I took an oath:

I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, SO HELP ME GOD.

I don't give a fuck that the OHS and the SSS (USSSUD) are listening or the fucking NSA for that matter! Freedom...real freedom, not that Soviet-style lip service Emperor Tiberius Bushler mouths whenever he wants to steal from us some more, THAT'S what matters!

Fuck you Agent Mike, and the rest of you SS/OHS thugs. I don't give a SHIT that you're listening and recording me!

I WILL NEVER YIELD. Come and get some...

[Jeffersons Ghost]

18. The ABYSS indeed, kentuck

Nietzsche said, “If you gaze long into an abyss the abyss will gaze back into you," so lets ALL just continue to evaluate the economic chasm of darkness.