Fervor for Dean starting to wane

[isbister]

SEATTLE WA -- When Howard Dean visited last summer, he was a gray-haired politician in a gray suit who, unexpectedly, turned out thousands of young adults for a speech against President Bush and the war in Iraq.

For the Democrats of Puget Sound, especially those that helped shutter the city with their antiglobalization protests in 1999, Dean may not have looked the eminence of edginess, but his message was what they yearned for. They and their counterparts across the country rewarded him with vocal support and generous contributions that grabbed headlines and helped propel Dean's lead in early opinion polls.

"When I heard him speak, he seemed congruent, smart, with compassion and innovation," said Peter Hannah, 37, a laid-off techie, opponent of the war in Iraq, and member of a brigade of dedicated volunteer workers at Dean headquarters in a revived industrial area north of downtown Seattle.

But Dean fervor comes in various forms, some with shorter shelf lives. Andy O'Connell, a senior at the University of Washington, also heard Dean speak last summer, and likewise was taken....

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/02/02/fervor_for_dean_starting_to_wane/

[NV1962]

1. As a Dean expert you hit the wrong avatar button - n/t

[KissMyAsscroft]

2. So Dean had fervent support..

which is now waning.....

But Kerry never had that kind of support.

[LosinIt]

4. and probably won't

Not a dynamic speaker

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. You're dissing a lot of the vets supporting Kerry

please don't overlook that very passionate support for Kerry.

[LosinIt]

3. Another shining example of TBM -- Trial By Media

[ShaneGR]

84. Sounds to me like Trial by Democratic Voter

"I know people who are gung-ho about Dean," said Laura Daniels, 28, an environmental scientist. "But maybe Dean is a little too gung-ho, and I want the candidate who will beat Bush."

"I am an environmental voter," said Rachel Brombaugh, 33, of Seattle, who once considered Dean but recently decided he was failing to connect with the more moderate voters who will be key in the general election. "The endorsement from the league was a big check mark for me with Kerry."

"There was a lot of hype about Dean," said David Owens, 23, a senior who attended the meeting and plans to vote for Clark. "But his whole thing seemed to be about not being Bush, and there are five other guys who are against Bush too."

[Rowdyboy]

5. And just look what that fervent support has gotten him

[FubarFly]

7. Yes, the most delegates so far.

A strong grassroots organization in 50 states, and a enthusiastic, special interest free source of revenue, which delivers more money to him than the annointed frontrunner. In other words, without the benefit of the extra delegates, the breadth of grassroots support, and the unrelenting ferocity of a major media smackdown, the same thing it's delivered Wesley Clark- the small miracle of having a candidate inspiring people's belief in democracy. People should influence the polls, not the other way around.

[ModerateMiddle]

16. "the most delegates so far"

What is going to be your argument come Wednesday morning?

[FubarFly]

44. My argument isn't about Wed.

Dean is leading in delegates as of today. Kerry's "rout" in NH gave him a net gain of 4 delegates. 4 out of the over the 2000 it takes to get the nomination. The correct count was 13-9 I believe. Media hype and bandwagon Dems desperate for a winner are responsible for the bulk of Kerry's surge. Drastic poll changes aren't the sign of committed, well-informed voters. Kerry may very well win, but damnit if I'm not going to let the media unduly game the democratic process without a fight. Dean has already shown us the way to fight special interests by reforming election fundraising, why shouldn't gratuitous undue media influence be the next target?

Dean is giving voters who are apathethic with the political process a reason to vote again. If the Party leadership had realized it was in their best interest to stand behind Dean instead of trying to destroy him, we'd be well on our way to defeating b*sh in November- even if Dean wasn't the nominee. The power and energy of Dean's grassroots was a revelation which should have been welcomely embraced by the Party leadership. Instead it was rejected by small-minded, jaded individuals desperate to hold onto their waning power in their ever dwindling fiefdoms. It's a pity.

[paulk]

53. you are entirely wrong

Why didn't the "power and energy of Dean's grassroots" translate into votes? It has nothing to do with being embraced by the party leadership, and everything to do with being embraced by party "VOTERS". Democratic voters. Which didn't happen.

Al Gore, Tom Harkin, Bill Bradley - those were some pretty big endorsements from the party "leadership". How do explain those away?

You (and many other Dean supporters) have such a condescending attitude toward those aforementioned voters, it's no wonder they didn't respond to the Dean campaign.

[FubarFly]

56. I entirely disagree.

Yeaaaarhgh. Or whatever. Played continuously by every network.

Every newspaper and media outlet in the country declared Dean dead after iowa.

It was bullshit then and it is bullshit now.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

58. That was AFTER Dean lost.

Not before. Voters in Iowa saw Dean up close and they didn't like what they saw. Then they saw how Dean reacted to losing.

Dean has only one person to blame for his rejection by the voters: Dean.

[FubarFly]

60. 3rd place in Iowa is still a respectful showing.

Dean still picked up delegates. Considering the dirty tricks, the backroom deals, and the tactical errors made by the Dean camp, Dean should have been down, but not out. The media overkill after Iowa is inexcusable.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

62. Funny, that's not how Dean acted. He acted disrespectfully on national tv.

He acted like an out-of-control wrestling coach or a geography teacher on crystal meth. And the voters won't forget it.

[FubarFly]

64. I can see how you would think that considering the way

the "scream" was portrayed. And you are informed enough to know better. Most voters don't pay attention to the process like we junkies on DU. Dean's drop in the polls is no big secret. If you still want to pretend it was over "issues" then go ahead, just don't expect any sympathy when it happens to Kerry.

[He loved Big Brother]

72. Isolated microphone

Nothing disrespectful about it-

http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/news/012904_NW_r2_group_deanscream.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

74. It's up to the voters to decide.

[FubarFly]

75. Hopefully.

[Mass_Liberal]

77. ok

do you think clinton was an evil guy because the media framed him as some satan-worshiping hedonistic sex demon?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

79. Dean did this to himself.

It's not the media's fault.

[mtlipsc]

82. He was rallying his troops, for pete's sake

Even Diane Sawyer has apologized. See: http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/news/012904_NW_r2_group_deanscream.html

Gore was crucified for being too wooden. You want to crucify Dean for being too real? Picky, picky...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

86. The President needs to rally his country.

And the country looks like it is rejecting Dean's way of doing this.

[GalleryGod]

6. Apparently. Roger! Over & Out!

"Dude! Where'd my $43 MIL Go???????":dunce:

[OutlawCorporatePolls]

8. Boston Globe??

Come on sarah, if u cant say something nice, dont say anything at all. ;)

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Sarah+Schweitzer+howard+dean&sa=N&tab=wn

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. Do you only like the Globe when they print anti-Kerry stories?

lol

[Hep]

22. The Globe has been bashing Kerry for years and years

yet they endorse him. Proof positive that the Globe is just another rag. Ididn't believe them then, and I don't believe them now.

[izzie]

9. Well I like Dean, may be the best but that does not mean he will make it

What he said the others seem to have picked up. This often happens.

[stickdog]

10. So the media STILL insists on SLAMMING Dean with negative

anecdotal testimonials? Even though he's not even close to being the front-runner -- and Dean and everybody else knows and clearly accepts this fact?

And this is supposed to pass as unbiased political "journalism"?

[CWebster]

11. And yet

the only way Kerry can get traction is by imitating Dean and having the media come to his aid in trashing him.

Yeah, right, I am going to support Kerry. Not. Part of the reason I back Dean is because I don't support Kerry and his handlers.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paulk]

46. Kerry had to take all Dean's positions?

Bush lite schmuck?

Kerry has a 93% rating from Americans for Democratic Action, the leading leberal rating organization. The only Senator who scored higher was Paul Wellstone.

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. I guess that's what happens

When you run out of money and can't bus in kids from out-of-state to fill out your crowds.

[Mass_Liberal]

80. you must be JOKING

he has inspired thousands of people. Ok? He doesn't need crowd fillers. He's actually created a movement. More than you can say for Kerry.

The people that voted for Kerry in NH, voted for him not because of Issues, or because of Kerry himself, simply on electability. That is lame. The point of a vote is not just to beat the other guy. It's to elect somebody you believe in.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

81. Running out of money...

Mortgage....


Hmmmm.

[Hep]

15. Let's all give a round of applause

to the mainstream media for conning nearly an entire nation of people AGAIN.

Wake me when people are intelligent and caring.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

20. So Democrats are stupid? We've been 'conned' by the media?

[Hep]

21. Well, if your candidate can be duped by an idiot like Bush

who is to say that the american people are any different.

Are you ready to claim that the media didn't con America in 2000? In 2002? You denying the sheer possibility of what I'm saying? By all means, outline your argument. If our discussion in the other thread is any indication, this will be a short conversation.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. So what is your alternative to democracy?

If you don't want things to be decided by voting, what is your alternative? Should Dean rule by fiat?

[Hep]

26. My alternative to ignorant complacent voters

is educated and well informed voters.

So why again do you support the status quo?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. You keep insulting the voters - why?

Do you think that will help in the upcoming elections?

[Hep]

30. This comes down to basic facts

Do you believe that American voters are as well informed across the board as they could be?

I'll give you a hint. The correct answer is NO.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. The fact is, I think primary elections are a good way to pick a nominee.

You, apparently believe we should use some other method -- like letting the insiders (superdelegates) choose.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. Insulting me won't help Dean win anymore than insulting the voters will.

[Hep]

39. Whatever you say!

I didn't insult you, but that's alright. Once again a conversation between us goes nowhere.

Why is it OK for you to jump to inflammatory conclusions to me but not OK for me to NOT jump to conclusions about you?

Hmmm,

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. Voters are excited about Kerry and they don't trust Dean.

Despite your attempts to make this conversation about me, we are actually talking about politics here.


Dean has commited to dropping out if he doesn't win any primaries; he just hasn't said when. Will he throw in the towel if he loses Michigan and Washington?

[He loved Big Brother]

59. I trust Kerry as far as I can throw him.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

67. Luckily for America, the voters disagree.

[bobbyboucher]

25. Don't confuse him,

it just makes it worse for all of us.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. I'm not confused -voters are turned off by Dean.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is confused.

[Hep]

31. Dean lost two primaries

I don't see anyone denying that. We're looking at the Big Picture. Of course, I've already pointed this out to you, yet here I am doing it again.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. This article is about waning enthusiasm for Dean in Washington state.

It's not really about the distant third place finish of Dean in Iowa, Dean's transformation into national laughingstock, or his disappointing failure in New Hampshire.

[Hep]

35. If this is about Washington state, why did you say Dean lost when no votes

have been officially counted?

That's an odd thing to do.

[Hep]

36. OIC, creative editing

Where do they teach you THAT tactic? Post one thing, and when you get a reply change your original post. Neat.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

38. I just hope you will help us beat Bush.

And not let disappointment over Dean's implosion get to you.

[Hep]

40. Implosion?

Dean's legacy lives long after his candidacy and potential presidency are gone. He has already made a huge difference.

I just hope we have a party in four years. If Dean dopesn't get the nomination, it looks a lot more gloomy.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

49. Call it whatever you want, it won't change reality.

[Hep]

50. Little will change reality.

Reality being that Kerry's nomination will spell the end of our party as we know it.

Who wants to play the part of Nero?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. I'm glad you are finally realizing that Kerry will win.

But your dire warnings about the future of our party are 100% wrong.

[edzontar]

41. Just wait till your beloved "voters" get a good look at Kerry

Unlike you, I recognize and am willing to admit that American voters often behave like ignorant morons.


The record is clear, with landslides for Reagan and Nixon and millions of votes cast for GW Bush and other enemies of the people.

Problem is, many American voters are poorly informed, finicky, cynical morons.....

[Hep]

42. Oooooh you hate america! You hate the people!

You're insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. Calling American voters 'ignorant morons' sounds like a winning strategy.

NOT.

[Blitz]

61. The funny thing about "poorly informed, finicky, cynical morons"

Is that, often, such people are too stupid to see themselves for what they are and are convinced that they are smart and well informed while the rest of the world is benighted.

[progressivebydesign]

68. I'm not confused. And I vote.

Your generalization and swipe at Dean supporters was seamless. Touche'. But you don't speak for me. I wonder who you support? I have yet to see anything positive about a candidate, only attacks on Dean. Do you have a horse in this race?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. Hopefully, the kids who were ripped of by Trippi and deceived by Dean

won't lose all of their idealism over it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. "I am an environmental voter"

Yet evidence of the youth vote that Dean courted with an antiestablishment message is difficult to find. At the University of Washington, Kerry Dawgs are out in force, but at a recent meeting of the university's Young Democrats, support for Dean seemed tepid at best, with Representative Dennis J. Kucinich, retired Army General Wesley K. Clark, and Senator John F. Kerry receiving more votes than Dean in an informal poll. "There was a lot of hype about Dean," said David Owens, 23, a senior who attended the meeting and plans to vote for Clark. "But his whole thing seemed to be about not being Bush, and there are five other guys who are against Bush too."

Meanwhile, the environmental vote, a key Democratic bloc on the West Coast, appears increasingly favorable to Kerry, particularly following his recent endorsement by the League of Conservation Voters in New Hampshire. "I am an environmental voter," said Rachel Brombaugh, 33, of Seattle, who once considered Dean but recently decided he was failing to connect with the more moderate voters who will be key in the general election. "The endorsement from the league was a big check mark for me with Kerry."
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/02/02/fervor_for_dean_starting_to_wane

Imagine that -- folks actually judging the candidates based on their records, instead of mere rhetoric.

[SeattleRob]

19. I am participating in the caucus

and I am proudly casting my vote for the Doctor.

[Lugnut]

24. Not in my house.

Nor in my extended family either.

[ProfessorPlum]

27. Not with me

.

[TLM]

45. If Dean was really failing... why would Kerry folks

need to be trying to prop up every negative Dean story they can find?


Obviously you do not think Dean is out of this race, or your attacks would be kicking a dead horse, and that would be stupid. SO clearly you, and most Kerry supporters are still very concerned about Dean and his supporters.

[Hep]

47. Without Dean, there's no one left to hate.

n/t

[Snivi Yllom]

48. puhlease

Classic media whores pushing THEIR preference.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

55. Namecalling won't win Dean any votes.

[He loved Big Brother]

63. I'm not running for office

So I'll do the name-calling for him. Some of these so-called Democratic "leaders" seem to be pansy-ass Bush-stroking boot-lickers.

Skull-and-Bones doesn't help either.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

65. You also aren't making a persuasive case for Dean.

[He loved Big Brother]

70. At this point I just want someone who speaks up

American voters need it. They're sleeping in class.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

73. America needs a leader, not a screamer.

[He loved Big Brother]

83. We need both.

And again- He's not a "screamer", anyway (see my isolated mic reply). It's called passion...one shouldn't put on airs and supress themselves if they are going to claim to represent Americans.

If I had to choose, I'd pick the guy that will make sure his anti-Bush message is heard, and loudly. Factually, Dean is right on regarding a majority of the actual issues. You never hear television media bring up an actual attack on his stances.

Dean isn't liberal enough for me, but neither is someone who voted to basically nullify the Constitution. Kerry was fooled into voting for the IWR resolution as well. He was lied to.

Bad in my eyes because-

1) I am wary of any mind that could actually be fooled by Bush, in any manner, regarding any situation.

2) I am wary of a person who *knows* they were lied to, yet doesn't seem to care enough to speak up about it. Especially when the end result turned out to be the Iraq quagmire and PATRIOT ACT.

Nobody can be so weak as to believe Bush, and if they do, they don't deserve to be president. Kerry was fooled. And he isn't admitting he was wrong and going after Bush for making a fool out of him.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

91. When it comes to rhetoric

Dean may be right on a lot of the issues. But when it comes to the record Dean is TO THE RIGHT of me, and too far to the right, on fundamental issues of civil liberties. I want someone appointing judges to the Supreme Court who understands the Sixth Amendment.

[MoonRiver]

66. Starting?

:shrug:

[progressivebydesign]

69. I live near Seattle..

And.. Dean bumper stickers and signs are still the majority and STILL in place. Next is Kucinich. This article is crap opinions... Dean is still rocking in Washington State.

[He loved Big Brother]

71. I live on Capitol Hill

On my block alone there are four Dean signs in apartment windows (including mine), and one for Kucinich. Around the corner, Man-Ray, a popular cocktail lounge, has a Dean sign that's been there since last April.

But we aren't from the south, so our support doesn't really matter. (kidding) ;)

Dean represents a huge number of voters who have been aching to get the anti-Bush show on the road since before the 2000 election even happened. Who says it's all over now? It's only just started. Dean won't back down, ever, from Bush, as opposed to some Dem "leaders" who have been backing down since Bush took office.

[SahaleArm]

88. How many will show up to the caucus?

Caucuses are not like primaries; Delegate counts decrease as you go west of Broadway to I-5. Capitol Hill has a large cross-section of students, many of whom are registered outside Seattle or are not registered as all. Will Dean have enough people outside of the 7th CD to win the WA State caucus?

[Mass_Liberal]

76. ya, ok

say that to the 500,000 volunteers that Dean has. Can you claim that Kerry has the same kind of support. Your post is insulting to thousands of people working their asses off for Dean to make this country a better place. They would beg to differ.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. The article is talking about voter sentiment in Washington state,

it isn't talking about the Dean volunteer effort.

[Southsideirish]

85. (Yawn) the more they continue to go after him - the stronger he gets -

MTP was a perfect example of that. I have never seen him sharper, more at ease and as totally confident as he was yesterday. Russert was crimson faced trying to skewer him - to no avail.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

87. The more the voters reject Dean, the stronger he is?

:wtf:

[Missy Vixen]

89. Maybe the reporter should have spent more time

talking with the crowds at last Saturday's appearance in Seattle and less time regurgitating the usual talking points.

I'd like to know how many of those with "Kerry" avatars would spend an hour and a half standing in a pouring rain to get in to a building to get a glimpse of Dean. There were a lot more people that stood in line much longer than we did. The crowd was so large that we stood in the lobby and listened to his speech over loudspeaker. There was an entire block across the street lined with those "screaming for Dean" as well.

Please, keep up the rhetoric. If it goes on long enough, those of us who would take any loss of Dean from the campaign as a personal blow will be even more unwilling to look at your candidate. You'll get the vote, but you won't get our help, or our contributions.

Julie

[Feanorcurufinwe]

90. I dont find threats of nonsupport to be a particularly convincing argument

America is excited to have a new leader replace Bush. We are participating in the process of choosing that leader.