Has Dean's Attacks on Kerry Crossed a Line?? I Am Trully Appalled

[Raya]

I am really upset about the way Dean's attacks his fellow Dems at almost every turn. He weaves his jabs into his speeches and it is the bread and butter of his interviews.


For almost a year, the Dean Campaign has engaged the most vicious attacks in NH and IOWA against his fellow Democrats as well at the Party Leadership at large.

Now he is taking the show on the road. Today, I watched news clips with Dean casually talking about John Kerry as if the was talking about George Bush. He used worlds like “corrupt,” “in the pocket of,” “can’t trust.” He was calling on Kerry to “apologize to the American people” for his “deception.”

Anyone else here feels that Dean has crossed some boundary of decency?

Am I the only one?

[SeveneightyWhoa]

1. No, you're not the only one.

Calling Clark and Kerry "Republicans" is somewhat idiotic.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

7. I was deeply offended by this one comment.

I would advise Governor Dean to look at his own records while governor. He had some very conservative policies.

Also, voting for a Republican (as Clark voted for Reagan) does NOT, make you a Republican. He never supported the Bush's and was a good freind of Bill Clinton! He also raised many dollar$ ($$$$$$$$$$) for Democratic candidates.

[Nicholas_J]

37. Months ago

An editorial in the Burlington Free Press indicated that Dean has a history of running abusive campaigns, so this is nothing new, though the paper made a prediction that at the national level, what worked for Dean in Vermont, could have a catastrophic effect his electability:

This is a reprint of the article from another source:

Friday, May 02, 2003
Dean bites Democrats



One certainty about the 2004 presidential primary campaign is that Howard Dean will not be named Mr. Congeniality by his fellow Democratic contestants....

Moreover, as the lone non-member of Congress among the leading Democrats, Dean is able to tap into a growing populist antipathy against Washington and can fashion himself as a new, dynamic voice.

As Dean becomes a top-tier candidate, however, his casual approach to facts and abusive tactics against his opponents could get him into serious trouble -- and severely damage Vermont's reputation for political civility and intellectual honesty.


http://www.sover.net/~auc/deanbites.htm

I have not been surprised at Deans behavior, and did not expect his brief stint in New Hampshire with trying to run a polite campaign to last. I fully expected him to retreat into the style that the news media in his own state, who probably have had enough experience with Dean's camapign style in Vermont due to his five runs for office, for me to take their word for it.

Fortunately, after every negative comment, within days, Deans polling numbers get a bit worse, but the effect on Kerry's canpaign seems to be to give Kerry more of a boost, when he simply refutes Deans comments, and stays above the fray that Dean is trying to create. Kerry has learned a bit from the Edwards campaign as well, and by staying removed from negative campaigning, Kerry is getting even larger boosts than ever.

In Michigan, where Dean has been hoping for a boost, and which is less than a week away, the most recent polls show that in just over a week, polls that had Dean far in the lead on the 12th of January now have Dean a distant second place, with Kerry at 37 percent, and Dean at 14 percent, as of the last poll done on the 25th:


LANSING, Mich. -- With less than two weeks to go before Michigan's Feb. 7 Democratic presidential caucuses, U.S. Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts holds a significant lead over his rivals, a poll released Monday shows.

Kerry, who won the Iowa caucus a week ago, was the favorite of 37 percent of the 400 likely Democratic caucus voters polled Tuesday through Sunday by Lansing-based EPIC/MRA.


http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--poll-democrats0126jan26,0,473913.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire

Today, Michagan Journalists are predicting that Michigan may deliver an overwhelming win for Kerry:

State may deliver knockout punch for John Kerry


By:Chad Selweski, Columnist February 01, 2004


Columnist Chad Selweski says it appears Michigan is poised to deliver a knockout punch for Kerry, reducing Dean's candidacy to a future trivia question.

For anyone who enjoys the ups and downs of politics, the past four weeks have been one heck of a thrill ride.

John Kerry's startling rise to frontrunner status and the subsequent stunning fall by Howard Dean is the stuff political drama is made of.

When the new year had dawned, we wondered if Michigan would have any real significance in the presidential nominating process, despite our early spot on the calendar with a Feb. 7 caucus. The Dean juggernaut appeared in position to score big wins in Iowa and New Hampshire and use that momentum to appear unbeatable before Michigan cast its ballots.

Now, it appears that our state is poised to deliver a knockout blow for Kerry, reducing Dean's candidacy to a future trivia question.


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10897606&BRD=988&PAG=461&dept_id=141269&rfi=6

Yes, I absolutely beleive that Dean's own behavior is causeing his own campaign to implode.

Whatever Dean is doing, I hope he keeps it up as he is running the best campaign for Kerry imaginable.

[creativelcro]

2. Let's see, what do you expect to hear ? Not clear, LOL...

[David Dunham]

3. I agree Dean has crossed the line. But he'll not win one state either

[dsc]

4. Then why do you write what you do?

If you are appalled by attacks on fellow Democrats then why do you author so many?

[Raya]

9. Could you list 2 uncalled for criticisms. Since there are so many.

[dsc]

14. Use your my post feature

I am sure you will find some. Hint you might want to start with the several times you called Dean unbalanced.

[angryinoville]

5. I'm glad

he does it. Kerry ripped off all of Dean's ideas. Dean is just doing to them what they've done to him all along.

[Rose Siding]

11. Kerry has the nerve to try to sell himself

as opposing special interests while being financed by them, but shhhh!

[Raya]

24. False again. These were regular individual donations like to Dean or

or Edwards except Kerry is one of the most senior senators an has
been in the Senate for 18+ years. That is how it works. If you
are well known you get on all the list of campaigns to write a
$100 or $2,000 check to.

Kerry could have raised ton of money if he did not voluntarily refuse all PAC money. Now he is attacked because a lot of individuals gave
to his campaigns.

[Rose Siding]

46. Just "on the list"?

Then he may have a case against the Post-

snip>
.....As Kerry was pushing reforms and boasting of his PAC-free campaigns, he was aggressively soliciting money from individuals working for companies and ringing up much bigger checks from corporations in the form of soft money. Kerry has not been involved in any of the major fundraising scandals of the past three decades -- although he was one of several politicians who took money from Taiwanese American businessman Johnny Chung, who was convicted of contributing illegally to Bill Clinton and many others.

The Hill, a Washington-based publication covering Capitol Hill, this month reported that Kerry in 1999 lobbied the Coast Guard on a rule-making process that benefited a foreign company represented by Cassidy & Associates. Soon after, employees of Cassidy & Associates sent Kerry $7,250 in bundled contributions. Jim Ruggieri, the Coast Guard official who handled the matter, told the paper it was highly unusual for a senator to intervene on such a matter.

A review of FEC and other data by The Washington Post found that Kerry has raked in millions from U.S. corporations, especially financial companies such as Citigroup and telecom firms, including Rubert Murdoch's News Corp., which also flew one of his Senate staffers to California for a meeting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64727-2004Jan30_2.html

[KaraokeKarlton]

6. Perhaps if Kerry weren't using dirty campaign tactics

and weren't being a total hypocrite about special interests and voting in line with Bush then Dean wouldn't have any reason to criticize Kerry.

[creativelcro]

8. Shocked and Appalled

[Hawkeye-X]

10. Kerry has crossed the line repeatedly, not Dean.

Kerry is copycatting everything Dean is doing, pulling every cruel and dirty tricks to Dean, thus making Dean lose. Dean never crossed the line because Dean is calling Kerry on it every single time.

What do you make of that, Kerry fans?

[Skip Intro]

19. I think you need to explain it in vague and ambiguous terms

you know, like Kerry does.

:D

[MAlibdem]

20. I think Howard Dean

Is increasingly resorting to Right-Wing tactics.

Including distorting the truth. And name-calling.

[KaraokeKarlton]

39. You mean like making robocalls to sabotage a campaign?

Calling your opponents caucus goers and giving them the wrong address for their caucus? Or maybe push polling against a candidate because his wife and children are Jewish?

Those are things John Kerry is doing against Howard Dean. You know what they say about people who live in glass houses...

[quaker bill]

12. You probably are not the only one

That being aside. I seem to recall attacks on Dean about judgement and character coming from a number of sources. It seems like fair play to me.

But I know, Dean is supposed to just take it, not dish it out.

[Clark Can WIN]

13. Anyone else here feels that Dean has crossed some boundary of decency?

Months ago in regards to attacks, yes.

[lastknowngood]

15. where were you when they were attacking him

n/t

[zulchzulu]

16. Dean is desperate and pathetic and his attacks will backfire

His legacy will be one of being a selfish, hotheaded, arrogant slimebag. It does a great disservice to his supporters.

[AntiCoup2K4]

47. "selfish arrogant slimebag" would be a more accurate term for

someone who votes for things that are dead wrong, but politically popular due to a forced fear culture of media manipulation.

"Selfish arrogant slimebags" voted for the Iraq War, the Patriot Act, and No School Left Unfucked out of political expediency.

Know any "selfish arrogant slimebags" like that??

[lcordero]

17. I'm shocked and appalled that Dean is saying the truth for once

[Raya]

27. Not the Truth. Do your research. Dean is attacking Kerry for being

admired by many. The donations Kerry got were individual contributions no different than those to Dean or Edwards except
Kerry is one of the most senior senators an has
been in the Senate for 18+ years. That is how it works. If you
are well known and popular you get on all the list of campaigns to
write a $100 or $2,000 check to.

[lcordero]

38. OH PULEEZE

I don't have any respect for Kerry or Dean. Like Clark said, Kerry will not take responsibility for his actions.

I despise Kerry's brand of Liberalism and will have no part of it.
This is what Kerry's liberalism is all about:

Senate Vote on Welfare Reform H.R. 3734

Welfare reform - The Senate approved legislation that preyed on the limited rights of vulnerable groups including children, immigrants, the poor and the elderly in the name of welfare reform. The bill also eroded free speech for not-for-profit organizations, violated the separation of church and state, and damaged privacy rights by establishing a de facto national identification system.
Sen John Kerry voted for this and so did Santorum & Ashcroft
----------------------------------------------------------------
Senate Vote on Government Funding of Religious Institutions S. 1956

Government Funding of Religious Institutions - Included in the welfare overhaul was a provision that could force state governments, under threat of lawsuits, to contract with religious institutions, including houses of worship, to provide taxpayer-funded social services, even if they are delivered in a proselytizing environment. This, too, was a recurring theme in the 104th Congress where
opponents of religious liberty repeatedly sought to pass provisions to lower the wall of separation between church and state
Kerry voted for this and so did Santorum & Ashcroft
---------------------------------------------------------------------
How the Senate voted on Internet Censorship S.652

Internet Censorship - As part of a major overhaul of the nation's telecommunications industries, both the House and Senate approved major new censorship schemes for the Internet. The Senate adopted its version, the so-called Communications Decency Act, Kerry voted for this. Even Lieberman against this
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Senate Vote on Campaign Finance Reform S. 1219

Campaign Finance Reform - In a sign of widespread disillusion with the political process, both the House and Senate considered versions of campaign finance reform that the ACLU believed to be
unconstitutional infringements of free speech provisions of the First Amendment.
Kerry voted for this and voted against the First amendment... Even Ashcroft and Santorum voted for the First Amendment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Senate Vote on Medical Privacy H.R 3103

Medical privacy - Hidden within the massive health care reform bill approved by Congress in the stampede for an August recess was a deceptively labeled provision that further eroded the privacy rights of all Americans. The provision, known as "administrative simplification," gives government and businesses access to confidential medical information about individuals without their consent and establishes a unique health identification number for every patient, health provider, health plan and employer

Kerry, Ashcroft, Santorum and many others voted against Medical Privacy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Senate Vote on Immigration Legislation H.R. 2202

Immigration - Seeking to capitalize on a wave of anti-immigration initiatives, both the House and Senate passed bills that represented the most draconian and divisive immigration proposals in decades. Included were provisions that would strip the courts of jurisdiction over illegal and abusive INS actions and erect enormous and virtually insurmountable barriers for most people seeking political asylum.

Kerry, Ashcroft, Santorum and many others voted for this
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Senate Vote on National ID Cards S. 1664

National ID Card - One of the most pervasive themes of the 104th Congress has been proposals to establish a national identification system as a means of tracking undocumented workers, so-called deadbeat dads and to monitor health insurance information. Various database schemes have been included in bills as diverse as immigration, welfare reform and health insurance. Since these proposals have been buried in much larger legislation, it was often difficult to determine the position of members of Congress

Kerry voted FOR this... Even Lieberman, Ashcroft, Lott and Santorum were against this
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Senate Vote on Wiretapping

Wiretapping - Although the interception of innocent conversations in federal law enforcement wiretaps is already at record levels, Congress has been repeatedly asked to give the FBI even greater authority to wiretap. Proposals have ranged from providing $500 million to the nation's phone companies to finance a retrofit of their systems to make it easier for the FBI to wiretap to permitting law enforcement agencies to use more "roving" wiretaps (without specifying which phone is to be tapped), and more "emergency" wiretaps (without obtaining a prior court order).

Kerry voted FOR Wiretapping along with his buddy Santorum
---------------------------------------------------------------------
How the Senate Voted on Counter-Terrorism S. 735

Counter-terrorism - The bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building lifted from obscurity a Clinton Administration proposal to increase the powers of law enforcement in the name of fighting terrorism. The measure gave the government the power to use secret evidence to deport immigrants it accuses of being "terrorists" and to exclude aliens merely because they are members of a disfavored foreign group.

Kerry voted FOR this with Ashcroft and Santorum...

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=1&vote=00395

[creativelcro]

18. Now it's too late. It's open war and Dean did not start it.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

21. Negative attacks hurt him in Iowa, and still lingers in

Missouri for his attacks on Gephardt and is going to hurt him there. That he's ramping up the attacks now that he's the undisputed underdog is a sign of desperation and is only going to alienate more undecided voters. It may excite his loyal supporters but it won't gain him anymore support, and may cause him to lose some.

Some people just never learn. Yes, he has crossed the boundary of decency.

[earthside]

22. Disappointed in Dean

You know, it is just kind of stupid of Howard to call any of his fellow candidates a Republican.

He's on a down slide, resorting to calling anyone what I consider a foul name, doesn't help him look 'presidential'.

Considering the cloud Dean is laboring under, this kind of tactic doesn't help him at all.

[Duder]

23. Well, there's just something about Kerry...

...that draws out the worst in people, imo.

[sasquatch]

25. The way they've attacked Dean in the past is appalling

I don't like it either way though, it's politics and politics is the same as being in a bar fight.

[sasquatch]

26. The way they've attacked Dean in the past is appalling

I don't like it either way though, it's politics and politics is the same as being in a bar fight.

[Raya]

30. The record will show that Dean began the Attacks. In Speeches, In Ads etc.

From back in April, USA Today reported “his attacks on fellow Democrats have been so cutting that sometimes the Republican National Committee e-mails them to party members.” And “Dean has reserved his sharpest thrusts for Kerry, repeatedly accusing him of selling out Democratic principles” (April, 28). With his star rising with the Media, Dean cranked up his rhetoric on even further, saying that if he won, members of Congress were ''going to be scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches” (NYT, Oct. 14).

[Skip Intro]

31. You can say that again

[David Dunham]

28. Dean Should Be Going After Bush, Not His Fellow Dems

[Raya]

35. Does Seem to be Anything That Dean Won't Say to Win

[DFLforever]

36. Have you been following this campaign?

For MONTHS, Dean was alone in attacking Bush while the Dem senators were playing patty cake with him.

[lurk_no_more]

29. Of course he has

But on the brite side, look where it's gotten him....he's become a laughing stock by everyone except his most die-hard of supporters.

Anger doesn't sell, and public anger sells even less, it's funny to listen to the media here mock dean when he attacks the others calling him silly and desperate.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Anwen]

32. If telling the truth is crossing the line...

then yes :)

[Raya]

45. Let Dean begin by telling the truth about his secret RECORDS

Everything he has said so far has proven false.

[DFLforever]

33. Howard Dean is always out in the open unlike his opponents

We know HE is not push-polling, robo-calling, running 527' ads
against Kerry and others. He says what he has to say in the open, not at four in the morning. But can we say that for certain about the other Dems? It stretches credulity that Karl Rove has paid for all the dirty tricks amd shits ads leveled against Dean in SC, IA, NH and NM.

[markus]

34. Why are Kerry's supporters in full panic over their candidate's record?

If you think that going after Kerry on his fundraising and voting record in the primary is ugly, you're not ready for general election.

If you dont' think your candidates record will stand up to scrutinty, why are you supporting him?

As Dean eloquently pointed out on MTP this morning, if you can't take the heat, you're in the wrong line of work.

If Dean "tempermant" based on fabricated evidence is a fair issue, then I think Kerry's actual voting record ought to be up for consideration.

If you're candidate's record doesn't stand up to close scrutiny, perhaps he should do the Democratic Party a favor and withdraw.

Y'all sound like the Dean supporters (whose hubris I greatly disapproved of) a few weeks or months ago: how dare you attack our glorious candidate, and undermine our chance at victory by challening him.

[brainshrub]

40. If you think Dean's attacks on Kerry are bad...

wait till you see him open a can of whup-ass on Bu$h.

Dean is a fighter. Just what we need.

[George_Bonanza]

41. I'm happy about it

It just hurts Dean and nobody really listens. When Kerry wins on Tuesday, Dean will sound like a shrill has-been. Iowa proved that negative campaigns are not inspiring.

[Shanty Oilish]

42. Disgusted here

Dean lost my respect when he used the term, "on the take," against Kerry.
I learned that English phrase in the same place Dean did: Manhattan. It means nothing else but the despicable criminal abuse of the public trust by accepting bribes.
As you say, he weaves the jabs into speeches, but there's really no way to soften and disguise "on the take."
I understand how politics works, but that was inexcusable.

[Democat]

43. Dean may have a "scrotched left" policy in place right now

Dean seems to have a big ego, maybe he's planning to take the party down with him.

Look at the DU poll where many Dean followers plan to support Bush rather than Kerry.

[seventhson]

44. Dean is too light on Kerry. Kerry sold us all out

Iraq war vote

Patriot act

Homeland security act


need I say more?

If Kerry is elected it will just be more DLC/PNAC bullshit,

[Moderator]

48. locked

inflamatory. Please review the rules for posting a new thread in GD2K4.

Thanks