Democrats can't run

[sandnsea]

We should just quit now because of Johnny Chung. I really really don't appreciate Howard being so perfectly content to bury the party by dragging this all out again. Going after Kerry personally is one thing, this is a whole other ballgame. This story needed to die.

"From 1994 to 1996, Chung made 12 personal or corporate donations to the DNC totaling $366,000. The DNC returned all of the money last year, stating that it had "insufficient information" about its origins. Richard Sullivan, the DNC's finance director during the 1996 campaign, said in congressional testimony last year that he had suspicions as early as 1995 that Chung was illegally handing over money from Chinese businessmen."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/cf030698.htm

[bryant69]

1. I may have missed something, but

Could you please draw a line between this story and Howard Dean?

Thank you.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[sandnsea]

2. Here

I'm pissed, really pissed at this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=249116&mesg_id=249116

[molly]

44. Just consider the motivation

:silly:

[bigtree]

100. The whole new Dean attack mode has really pissed me off

Yesterday I ran my first anti-Dean thread. Most of my time is spent defending John Kerry against all sorts of weirdness. But I'm fed up!

Howard Dean is willing to drag the party down just to further or justify his campaign and it's sickening to watch. He looks like a mean and petty loser. I won't stand by and let him tear good men (and women) in the party down just so he can score some points.

I mean, where is this conspiracy constituency he is pandering to? This is a slash and burn campaign that Dean is running now and he won't earn the respect of anyone, save the media hacks who are feeding off of his recent tripe.

I suggest he turn his muckraking back on the original target, Bush. That way he can emerge from this campaign as more than a muckraking loser.

[lastknowngood]

3. take your lumps you were sure

happy to dish them out.

[sandnsea]

8. This is at the Party, that's why I'm mad

I don't care about whatever he says about Kerry personally, but when he damages the Party, over and over, that's when I get really pissed off.

[ibegurpard]

12. And stuff like this is why the Democrats will NEVER be able

to beat the Republicans until they STOP this kind of shit!

[sandnsea]

16. What SHIT??

:shrug:

[ibegurpard]

27. And why do you think so many of us are pissed at the Party?

Howard Dean showed that it's possible to run a campaign and get support without having to engage in this kind of shady fundraising and what do they do? They try to destroy him and throw their support behind business-as-usual.

[sandnsea]

37. Oh for pete's sake

There was story after story about Howard taking money for speaking engagements from businesses who had bills up in Vermont. Entergy funding Howard's presidential pac. Lots of shit.

This is ONE story, happened a long time ago, and Howard should not have brought it up again.

And Howard destroyed himself. He'll never beat Bush in 500 million years. But keep cheering him on while he ruins life for the rest of us.

[ibegurpard]

43. I'm not naive enough to believe that no politician is lily white on this

But has Kerry SHOWN that he's going to do about it? He says "I'll clean up special interests." Dean's campaign has shown that it's possible.

[sandnsea]

46. Work with Paul Wellstone on campaign finance

Cooperate in the Chung investigation. What the hell did Dean do? Opt out of campaign financing TWICE?? AFTER making it a huge issue against Edwards and Kerry himself???

Maybe he just forgot he did that. I guess he's also forgotten how he turned Vermont into a corporate tax haven for captive insurance because, hey, it's better than Bermuda!! And whatever it is he discussed in secret energy meetings, when he was trying to "restructure" Vermont’s near bankrupt electric utilities in 2002, we'll never know because he won't release the records. Restructure, that appears to be a code word for deregulate because selling Vermont Yankee was recommended by his deregulation committee and that's exactly what he did. He must have forgotten about that when he was telling everyone he was against deregulation. And maybe he's forgotten the two ski executives he appointed to the land use board that oversaw the largest development of ski resorts and condominiums in the states' history. American Skiing Company ski resorts, the company that saw a meteoric rise under Les Otten, and then a plummet only rivaled by Howard Dean's.

Howard Dean is SOOO not innocent and would do NOTHING to change this country at all. He NEVER has.

[dsc]

50. flat out false

and not only that your candidate actually did break rules he had agreed to.

First, Dean opted out of VT's system only after it was declared invalid. So Dean opted not to follow rules which no longer existed. Your candidate, on the other hand, signed an agreement with Weld and then proceeeded to break it. He later claimed that a standard agreement Weld had with his media buyer was a violation despite the fact that it appeared no where in the agreement. As to the federal system Bush opted out first and then Dean did and then Kerry did. It is no different for Kerry to follow Dean in that regard than it is for Dean to have followed Bush.

Second, those secret meetings. Unlike Cheney's we know the name, job, and political affiliation of every single person who met with Dean. We know then, their donor history and the rest. We don't know that about Cheney's. In addition, we know every recommendation that was made. We don't know that about Cheney's.

[sandnsea]

55. Sure sure sure

Howard always has an excuse and always has a friend to bail him out of any legal problem that confronts him in Vermont. Just like he does right now with keeping his records sealed. Benefits of a small state I guess. There will be two happy days in my life, when Kerry beats Bush and when Howard drops out of this race.

[dsc]

59. I will back up what I just said and then I demand an apology for your

snotty post.

Here is backing for my take on the 2000 Governor's election (it took one count it one google search)

Dean started out the campaign intending to hold to a $255,000 spending limit under the state's new campaign finance law. But he abandoned that pledge after a federal judge ruled that some parts of the law were unconstitutional. The ruling opened the door for Dwyer, who was not taking public financing, to collect unlimited amounts of money from political parties.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/elec_night/spendingheavy.htm

Here is backing for my take on the Kerry Weld limits

But the real problem, according to Kerry, is that Weld violated their agreement by spending some $5.4 million on TV advertising, over the agreed $5 million. His campaign treasurer collected records from media outlets of Weld's expenditures.

"I have no intention at this point of spending more than (the cap), but I'm not going to be disadvantaged by their games in how they interpret media expenditures," Kerry told AP.

Weld's campaign contends it had negotiated lower costs from media brokers and said Kerry's complaints were a ruse to cover lackluster fund-raising. Weld called Kerry's new loan a "transparent end run around the agreement, and I think that would introduce a credibility issue if he does it."

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/news/9610/24/spending.cap/index.shtml

Again, this was after one, count it one, google search. Two claims by me and two claims backed up.

I demand an apology.

[sandnsea]

65. Your take

Exactly. You can post any damn thing you want. And believe anything you want. Fact remains, Howard Dean is willing to smear the Democratic Party to satisfy his own ego-trip and that's what this thread is about.

[dsc]

71. Unlike you I have facts from legitimate news sources

where are yours? It isn't my take it is the facts as reported by neutral news sources and directly opposed to your post. Back up or apologize.

[slinkerwink]

72. so far.....nothing

[sandnsea]

83. Actually

It suddenly dawned on me that Dean has said so many stupid things over the course of the last 6 months that nobody listens to him anymore. As reported earlier, they hate him so much for what he did to Gephardt that in MO "he'd have to rent a pallbearer to get buried." I'm sure that's true across much of the country. So I think I'll just let Dean keep making a fool of himself and get to making some phone calls.

[Forkboy]

86. ity suddenly dawned on you

that dsc is totally right and you have no argument against it.

[sandnsea]

89. No, not really

But like I say, Howard Dean has said so many screwy things for so long, nobody is going to pay any attention to him.

"While governor, Howard Dean pushed for utility contract provisions that aided the power companies, but cost Vermont families millions of dollars in skyrocketing rates. Vermont has the sixth highest utility rates in the country, due in part to a series of long-term contracts between its major power companies. After years of pushing for Central Vermont Public Service Corp. and the smaller utilities it held to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contracts, Dean's Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of the excess costs—which could soar into the hundreds of millions of dollars. Central Vermont Public Service Corp. donated more than $10,000 to Dean's Fund for a Healthy America PAC—a hefty contribution in a state that limits campaign contributions for statewide offices to $400."

http://www.bop2004.org/bop2004/report.aspx?aid=132

[drfemoe]

90. Is that why

Kerry uses Dean's name on his own campaign signs? Is that why John Kerry has been and is running as the "anti-Dean"? Because no one listens to Howard Dean? Is that why Dean had 1,000 NEW contributors per day for three days last week?

Somebody wants a change in DC. The biggest problem is, many Americans don't believe they have any influence in DC. There are plenty of good reasons for them to feel that way.

[ibegurpard]

62. I can certainly empathize

I feel the same way about Kerry.

[AntiCoup2K4]

78. I guess you won't be very happy then.

Because the first will never happen, and I hope the second one never does (as Dean's the only one in this race who CAN beat Bush)

[nolabels]

107. Dean is a fundamental problem for many of them

He said he was not going to give up, I think we should hold him to it.He has brought a lot of people in and should be thanked for it. I will continue to support him as best I can.

Dennis and Al are sticking with it, they should be praised for it also. To make Democracy work, you have keep the daylight on all issues. Include everybody that help and make worth while. Demonstrating implementation of winning programs and issues, and being a force of positive and comfortable membership.

Sending out negative vibes without showing positive outlooks on other possible outcomes turns people away. The problem getting off message and going on the attack. The current congress was not even elected with a majority of registered voters

Bringing in more people means bringing in more involvement and votes, this one the things that scare usurpers of democracy about people like Dean

[bigtree]

109. Dean is running against his own party

But he wants their support. Ironic isn't it? I mean, that he's losing support, not gaining from these attacks.

[NashVegas]

94. This Logic is Truly Amazing

When Gep's hacks run TV ads morphing Dean = Osama, it's not destroying the party, but this is?

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. I have a feeling Dean is going to be the Jerry Brown of this election

Jerry Brown's campaign, for those who remember, was the one that started digging up all the sex scandals on Clinton. The Republicans then jumped on them and took it to another level.

Look where that got us.

[girl gone mad]

11. I disagree..

get this all out now so we can make informed choices in the primary.

the RW propoganda machine won't hold back.

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. yeah, but why do their work for them

If you're going to stay in the race, stay in and present your positive message. Don't just stay in it to take out the guy who torpedoed your chances of getting the nomination, out of spite.

[aquart]

21. If you can't take the heat..........

How you react to the bad stuff is what tells us how to vote.

And "nobody reaches the White House in a state of grace." (Jimmy Breslin)

[sandnsea]

26. This is about the Party

Dean is willing to smear the entire Party, again and again, for his own ego-driven campaign.

[dsc]

28. So Dean runs Newsweek, now does he?

That is where this story appeared. Your very own link states that clear as day.

[sandnsea]

31. See #2

This post is to explain why I'm angry. Post #2 has Dean's press release. He could have had a hay day doing 101 other things. But jumping on the Johnny Chung story is despicable.

[IndianaGreen]

69. This is about the party establishment, not the rank-and-file

We are the ones that are getting screwed by the same people taking illegal contributions.

[bigtree]

110. How did you get screwed by a returned donation?

Wasn't Chung responsible for giving the money. Kerry was responsible for the return of same. How did John Kerry hurt the party by returning the money?

[RetroLounge]

73. "yeah, but why do their work for them"

Oh that's rich, after Dean was ripped for months on end...

If Kerry can't handle the heat, well,...

[Forkboy]

87. no kidding

I have zero sympathy for many Kerry supporters.They did their damndest to tar Dean with any and all negative things they could find or think of.Now that people are returning the favor suddenly people are doing Rove's work,it's unfair,blah blah blah.

Fucking hypocrites...

[w4rma]

93. I am in full and total agreement with you, Forkboy. (n/t)

[bigtree]

101. Fucking hypocrites?

Do you really see the world through this board? Do you actually imagine that this board speaks for all Kerry supporters. Could you smear us with a larger brush?

[dsc]

22. patently false

Brown didn't say anything about sex scandals. He did bring up Hillary's law practice but only after it had made the front page of the NYTimes. Clinton has no one but himself to blame for all the floozies he slept with and who later told all.

[THUNDER HANDS]

29. no, the Brown campaign dug it up

I'm not sure if they used it or not because I don't clearly remember that year's primary, but I know they were the one's that uncovered it.

[dsc]

34. Brown certainly never used it

and frankly I don't think they dug it up either. Jerry Brown has quite a history in that regard himself and had no interest at all in digging up other people's history. Clinton needs to look in the mirror on that even if Brown had dug it all up.

[Andromeda]

85. I'm old enough to remember...

but the bimbo eruptions were being dug up by Clinton's enemies in Arkansas. Read "The Hunting of the President" by Joe Conoson and Gene Lyons. Jerry Brown may have dabbled in scandal but he's not the one who fired the first shot over the bow.

Anyway, Howard Dean and Jerry Brown have absolutely nothing in common---politically or personally, except the fact that they're both registered Democrats (but I'm not even sure Jerry Brown is anymore).

[Jerseycoa]

99. Not correct

The Arkansas Republicans set that stage years before Clinton was running for president.

[dsc]

5. Out of curiousity

were you planning on paying Rove off to make him not say anything?

On edit Newsweek reported this first not Dean. Your own link makes that clear.

[Padraig18]

6. Kerry MET with Chung *personally*.

Kerry needs to come clean about this--- totally clean. He cannot 'nuance' this one, and the sooner he explains it in clear and unequivocal language, the better for him and our party.

Don't blame Gov. Dean for Kerry's indiscretions. You think that nice Mr. Rove who works for * isn't going to bring this up? :eyes:

[sandnsea]

10. It's already been totally investigated

Dean knows that. Kerry returned the money right away, assisted in the investigation, it's over. It really is old news. This is just the kind of crap Howard Dean pulls that makes me really hate him.

[Padraig18]

17. You think Rove is going to ignore it?

'This kind of crap' is what happens when you're the front-runner. If Kerry is that big of a wuss, he doesn't need to be our nominee; if he can't stand the heat, get the **** out of the kitchen, John!

[sandnsea]

19. Of course he would

You think Rove wants to have a spitting match over who has the worst campaign financing charges??? Don't think so. I've said over and over, this particular issue isn't about Kerry, it's about the Party.

[Padraig18]

30. No, it's about Kerry.

If he can't take the heat, he should withdraw. Karl Rove will toss everything he has at Kerry, should he win the nod.

[sandnsea]

32. This is from 1996

Do you not get that?? This was a story that hounded Clinton, hounded Gore, and has actually been pretty quiet for a while. Since this story broke, there have been campaign financing problems on the Republican side. So NO, they wouldn't have hauled out Johnny Chung again.

[dsc]

36. The first time this story broke

the chair of the GOP was soliciting donations from foreigners which is categorically illegal. They still brought it up.

[sandnsea]

38. And where is he now?

And do you think the Democrats would be stupid enough to bring that story up when they know this story is right there? No. Then is then, now is now. This story should have stayed dead.

[dsc]

39. The Lt Gov is a Republican too

and thus Barbour would be a very small sacrifice for stopping Kerry. I sure would make that trade in a heartbeat and I actually care something about MS due to having lived there. Most people don't give a crap.

[sandnsea]

41. No they wouldn't

My point is that he's already been shuffled off out of sight. They don't like stenches around the Republican Party and they ALL keep them buried and they ALL work together very effectively that way. Not Howard Dean, the little twit. I don't care how much crap he wanted to throw at Kerry, this one is 100% self-serving on Dean's part and totally unnecessary.

[bearfartinthewoods]

54. rove dooesn't have to

ever hear of rushannityetc? think they might mention it from time to time?

[bearfartinthewoods]

35. are there pics? please tell me there was no photo-op pics?

[displacedtexan]

7. Let's all thank Dean!

This crap is better handled during the primary season than in the GE!

That being said, I'll bet Al Gore is pissed that Dean brought this up!

[ibegurpard]

9. This story needed to die?

Is it false? If it was false it needed to be responded to forcefully by ALL Democrats. If it was true then it's one more thing that indicates to me that my opinion of John Kerry as someone who will do NOTHING to change what's wrong with the Democratic Party is correct. And the Republicans weren't going to make it die...you can bet your life on that.

[sandnsea]

13. It's BEEN INVESTIGATED!!!

It was a huge scandal for years. It's finally resolved. And Howard has to go drag it up again. It's disgusting. The Republicans wouldn't have drug this out again, it would have been petty and stupid. They've got campaign investigations of their own.

[Padraig18]

18. Your opinion of Republicans is far too high.

You want to bet the Republicans wouldn't drag this up again? :eyes:

[bigtree]

108. The investigation closed because RNC head Haley Barbour

was reported to have accepted thousands of dollars in cash on a Chinese scooner in international waters. The repugs were chasing Chung but their boy was taking cash right out of the Chinese agent's hands.

[maddezmom]

15. Johnny Chung ~a name no democrat wants to hear again

:(

[Guaranteed]

20. Let's just nominate someone else!

That's why we have these primaries. We need the best candidate.

[Padraig18]

23. I agree.

We do not need a Washington hack as our nominee.

[bigtree]

102. But some would use media hacks to tear down another candidate

to further their own campaigns.

No principle there. Why should anyone follow such an unprincipled campaign?

[sandnsea]

25. A military lobbyist

Who voted for Reagan and has never exactly explained what he was thinking when he did it. Or what he thinks about Reagan now. It's Reagan, not the vote. No thanks. I'll stick with my Democrat.

[Guaranteed]

33. There's always DEAN!

:)

[RetroLounge]

75. Oh, Lookie here, a Kerry Supporter calling Clark

a Republican.

How, oh, unusual...

I'll take Clark, an outsider who comes down on the same side on the issue as me, than an innefective insider who voted for the War, No Child Left Behind etc.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. Oh wait!! Worse yet!

Jim Jones was a spokesperson for the Kerry Campaign!!! Isn't that the same guy from GUYANA?????

(sarcasm on)

[JVS]

40. When Dean was getting bashed people claimed that it was necessary...

and helped make our final candidate stronger. Now it's Kerry's turn.

:nopity:

[sandnsea]

42. He's bashing the Party

That's the point and I'll say it every time somebody posts this lame excuse.

[JVS]

45. Maybe he is trying to deliver our party from the tarnished image...

that Clinton, and now apparently Kerry have cursed it with.

[sandnsea]

47. Howard Dean is the tarnish

See #46. He makes me sick.

[JVS]

57. You shouldn't be mad at Dean just because Kerry has a little scandal going

[sandnsea]

66. It's the Party

I haven't complained about one other word Howard Dean has said, no matter how crazy and distorted its been. But this is different which I've said about 100 times here.

[JVS]

68. The party has other options. Kerry is not the definition of the party

[bigtree]

48. Kerry gave the money back

End of story

[slinkerwink]

49. why did he take it in the first place to begin with?

[Padraig18]

52. That's the better question, slinkertwink.

:hi:

[slinkerwink]

53. that's the question I'd like to see answered

;-)

[sandnsea]

56. It was a fundraiser

He showed up, Johnny Chung deposited the money, just like all normal people do. How in the hell is somebody supposed to know that somebody else is doing something illegal??

[slinkerwink]

58. it's called following the FEC rules......

[JVS]

60. But rules are for the peons to obey,

:-)

[slinkerwink]

61. lol.....

[sandnsea]

67. If I go break the rules

How the hell are you supposed to know I'm doing it???

[slinkerwink]

70. *snickers*

[Forkboy]

88. well,that's a good defense

:eyes:

[JVS]

96. You realize that there are laws against receiving stolen property, right?

So there is already legal precedence for having to know that others are not doing something illegal.

I guess they should have paid more attention to who their guests were.

[RetroLounge]

76. after he got caught...

oops...

[slinkerwink]

51. with the logic used, every negative story about Dean in the 90s should

have died.......but guess what? they didn't! And neither should negative stories about Kerry!

[slinkerwink]

63. kick for an illuminating thread

[NewYorkerfromMass]

91. illuminating in more ways than you know. eom

[KaraokeKarlton]

64. Democrats just can't run Kerry

it would be political suicide.

[BuelahWitch]

74. Or politcal boredom n/t

[RetroLounge]

77. We should just quit now...

Tell Kerry to feel free to quit anytime and SAVE THE PARTY from the embarrasment of being beat by bush*.

[knight_of_the_star]

79. Fuck the party!

How about losing to Bush for the sake of the country?

I personally could care less about the party so long as Bush is STOPPED!

[RetroLounge]

80. I agree, and Kerry won't do it.

Dean and Clark can.

[bigtree]

103. I'm worried that every time Howard Dean thinks he's losing

he'll muckrake. That is not a noble profile. I can't imagine anyone supporting a muckraker. Who's next on his smear list?

[WI_DEM]

81. Howard Dean didn't start this

the lobbying and the money given to Kerry by lobbyists was started by Newsweek and the Washington Post in articles. Yes, it is too bad for the party when the press starts to investigate Kerry, but when it was Dean under constant assault that was a different story. Well, Kerry is the front runner and as many people used to say when we Dean supporters used to complain about the press scrutiny of Dean--we better expect it. There is probably more to come.

[bigtree]

104. Didn't start this? Doesn't like it? Doesn't believe in it?

Who wants a candidate that will say anything against his own party, do anything against his own party, to win?

What party will he run to next after he has trashed ours? Will he start his own muckraking party? The Muckraking Party. Nice.

[DannyRed]

82. Awwwwww

sniff sniff...waaaaaah

Look, Kerry needs to address this and address it forcefully, emphatically, and (most importantly) MEMORABLY...

He needs to address it in a way that will firmly implant the image in all viewers' minds that he is innocent, that this is past, over, and done.

Otherwise, it (among MANY other things) will be used to tar him with broad strokes come October/November.

One thing about Clinton's campaign is clear - if the infidelity issues had come up LATER, rather than SOONER, Clinton would NEVER have won in 1992.

Rooting in the dirt is fair game - it was done to dean, it is being done to kerry.

And it is kinda funny to see some of the worst scum-hunters whining when it gets done to their guy....

[slinkerwink]

92. the Today show ran a piece on the Johnny Chung scandal

and they tried to get a comment from Kerry---he said "he had no recollection of that"-----lying much, eh?

[AntiCoup2K4]

98. Why, how "Reaganesque" of him!

Wonder how many other things he "has no recollection" of? ;)

[bigtree]

105. He doesn't recall anyone who has so thouroughly trashed the party

that he would have nominate and support him.

Why doesn't he switch parties?

[Adjoran]

84. Not fair to blame Dean

if he only tells the truth. "Bury it?" "Sweep it under the rug?"

There's another party for that crap.

It's entirely fair game to bring up the record, particularly since Kerry has been saying he's been "fighting against special interests" for his whole career. If he's fighting them so hard, why are they giving him money?

Oh, that's right. It's not the special interests. It's only "some people who work" for them, right? So these big-time lobbyists make their living representing XYZ Corporation, but they give their own money to the guy who is working AGAINST their clients' interests?

It wouldn't be an issue at all, if Kerry weren't touting himself as the big fighter against the special interests, and offered such lame excuses for his donors.

If we don't get to the bottom of it all now, you can bet Rove will have an ad campaign for the fall that plays in the worst possible light.

[John_H]

95. If Dean keeps this up, we'll soon be reading about some of

Ol' Howard's fundraising for DNC.

This is getting out of hand. Dean is throwing a colossal temper tantrum and needs to stop. Now.

[slinkerwink]

97. kick for the most illuminating thread ever.....

[bigtree]

106. It is the ... the cussedness ...

to insist that what we know to be true remains true, in the face of confusion and distraction. When it is hidden from us. Because ... Because we were not made to live constantly in a glow of divine illumination.
-Powl