Are there any non-Dean supporters besides me who STILL like Dr. Dean?

[Cuban_Liberal]

As I listened to him this morning, I was reminded of all the things I used to like about Dr. Dean, and still do. Yes, Sen. Edwards is my 1st choice, but Dr. Dean is once again my 2nd choice. I hope he stays in this race for a while yet, and sent him $50 toward that end just a bit ago. :)

[cthrumatrix]

1. he was awesome this mornign with russert...how anyone can vote for

kerry after that is beyond me

[dorktv]

2. Thanks for the donation! You helped pay for the coffee that is

keeping us here at Dean For AZ HQ going! Heehee.

[Cuban_Liberal]

4. Have a cup for me.

I sugar, no milk. :hi:

[chimpymustgo]

31. I sure hope you sent something for the Edwards supporters.

JRE needs money too. And his voluteers need coffee, too.

[bhunt70]

3. I like them all for different reasons.

[jmaier]

5. I support Clark

but I think that Howard Dean would probably be a far superior President to either Kerry or Edwards, though he is a weaker candidate than Kerry. It's a shame that these contests do not really assess who is actually more qualified to govern. They are popularity contests based upon momentum and intangibles, like being a veteran is critical this year.

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. I agree.

I think Dr. Dean would be superior, but I'm just not sure we can convince 50.1% of the electorate to vote for someone like Gov. Dean---- this time. '08 may be a different story, if we don't win in November.

[Nay]

6. Definitely me.

Philosophically I am closest to Kucinich and Sharpton, but I still like Dean just fine and Clark just fine. Will still vote ABB.

[Webster Green]

12. Ditto....

My sentiments exactly!

[mitchtv]

7. He is on my Short list

I like them all. I think JK and WC can beat the chimp. I would like to see any combo on our ticket-Sorry , I don't feel JE is top tier.

[funky_bug]

8. Still like Dean

Though Clark is my first choice, and I'm trying to read up on Edwards to get a better feel for him...

But if Dean pulls another "Clark is a repub..." thing like he did yesterday, he's gonna lose favor in my eyes again.

Clark said, "I'm pro-choice, etc... I was either going to be a lonely Republican or a happy Democrat..." He's Dem now, so the repub line is old and invalid.

[For PaisAn]

26. Deans comment did it for me

Calling Clark a republican was dishonest and dirty. I had respect for him but that blew it. BTW everyone, Clark was NEVER a Republican.

[Eloriel]

36. LOL -- And he was NEVER a Democrat either, until it became

a really, really good idea to be one, so he could try for another promotion, this time to CIC.

[For PaisAn]

40. Yes, LOL

People in high ranking military positions do not register with either party. They have to work with both Republican and Democratic Presidents and congressmen. They remain nonpartisan in their party affilation. It would give the appearence of conflict of interest to do otherwise.

Clark was honest about who he has voted for in the past. Yes he voted for Reagan but he also voted for Clinton twice and also for Gore. So for the past 12 years he has voted for the Democratic Presidential candidate. Should he be condemned for honesty? Is that how it works. I guess he could have just lied and not had to deal with this nonsense. Then he wouldn't have gotten this unfair label. I don't think it's in his nature to lie and for this he is trashed. I respect him. And the fact is we'll never know how any of the other candidates have voted in the past

[Cuban_Liberal]

10. kick

[HawkerHurricane]

11. I feel about Dean

the way I feel about Jesus (hear me out!)

Dean's words often resonate with me.
But his followers annoy me.

[Fleshdancer]

20. Well to further your analogy

Not all followers are annoying.

Hell, there are almost 630,000 signed up with is campaign, surely there's at least one person who doesn't annoy you. :)

[spooky3]

13. I like him too. I also like Clark.

ABB.

[Cocoa]

14. I still like Dean

there are specific things I don't like about how he's running his campaign, but I think he'd make a good president.

[welshTerrier2]

15. sure ...i like dean's ideas and his energy ...

i'm a kucinich - kerry supporter ... i'm sickened by those (36%) of DU'ers who say they wouldn't vote for kerry in the general election ... i used to think that way myself because of kerry's hideous vote on IWR ... but i'm afraid this is not the time to stand on rigid principles ... bush has got to go ... period ... so, i'm enthusiastically supporting the front-runner ... period ...

i do not believe any other candidate can beat kerry at this point ... have your guy win a primary or two and we'll talk ... and i'm not discouraging anyone from campaigning for the candidate of their choice ... i think all our candidates are great ... the way they've all grown and strengthened their messages and their presentations during the campaign has been nothing short of fantastic ... i hope some candidates other than kerry do win a few primaries ... keeping the primary campaign alive for awhile longer is getting democrats all sorts of free air time ... that won't happen as easily once the primaries are over ...

i am sorry for those who don't see kerry as being any better than bush ... that view just isn't grounded in reality ... i've seen news stories (sorry, no link) that kerry's voting record has been very similar to ted kennedy's ... and while i'm well to the left of kennedy, to compare kerry to bush is absurd ... go check "project vote smart" and take a look at all the progressive interest groups that give kerry very high marks for his voting record ... and on issues of interest to the christian coalition, kerry scores close to the bottom ...

anyway, to answer your question directly, i like dean's message ... i commend him for the ideas and the energy he's brought to the party ... but the proof's in the pudding, my friends ... and dean just isn't getting the job done ... i'll even acknowledge that many of the other candidates have co-opted some of his ideas ... but being first with an idea does not automatically make you the best candidate ... others are doing better with the voters ... at least so far ...

one last point ... there's all this talk about the DLC stacking the election for kerry ... i really haven't seen anyone present a coherent explanation of exactly what that means ... trust me, i hate al from ... but when Iowa caucus goers or NH primary voters went to the polls, they did so after virtually living with the candidates on a daily basis ... dean had a much larger organization and much more money than kerry or any of the others ... but he did poorly ... does someone want to make a case that dean lost because of the DLC ?? i just don't see it ...

[Eloriel]

35. DLC

one last point ... there's all this talk about the DLC stacking the election for kerry ... i really haven't seen anyone present a coherent explanation of exactly what that means

I'm not sure I've seen anyone who has said that the DLC as an organization has "stacked the election for Kerry." If there have been people saying that, I haven't seen it. And I don't quite agree with that phrasing.

What IS true is that the Dem ESTABLISHMENT (which includes people in the DLC, I'm sure -- incl. some which were Kerry's own dirty tricks) helped defeat Dean. (And yes, Dean and the campaign made some mistakes -- but I've thought about it, even if they'd been perfect, that wouldn't have changed the election results all that much.)

* Push polling including anti-Semitic innuendo and not-so-innuendo

* Robocalling Dean supporters at all hours of the night

* Osama bin Laden ad

* Gephardt-Kerry deal (Gephardt's longtime aide hints he was offered the VP slot) and

* Kucinich-Edwards deal (yeah, both of these are perfectly legal and all that -- but please don't try to pass them off as anything but Party Insiders working damn hard to STOP DEAN AT ALL COSTS)

* Sending Dean supporters to the wrong locations for the caucus in Iowa -- and I'm hearing the same thing is happening in New Mexico too

* Vilsack machine in the Iowa caucus (I now know what they mean when they say re Iowa, "Campaign, campaign and then organize, organize, organize" -- the kind of organizing they're talking about it the good old boys' and girls' network -- dirty tricks and lots of pressure abound. If you aren't part of the machine, not as familiar with the rules, not incredibly assertive, you can get steamrolled.)

* Shaheen machine in NH.

and the one that infuriates me the MOST:

* Co-opt every bit of Dean's message, then go into fearmongering mode n order to make voters think Kerry is more electable by virtue of the fact that he "knows about aircraft carriers for real." 56% of Kerry's votes in NH were on electability, which was further fueled by the ginned up Iowa results. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the man, his policies, or anything else about him -- it's a ringing endorsement of how afraid people are of George Bush.

Here's a post someone in Iowa made to the Official Blog. It gives you a bird's eye view into the process.

For what it's worth, I wanted to give my view of what I saw from the ground in Iowa. First, a few weeks ago the major newspapers started endorsing Kerry and Edwards. Endorsements are fine, but here's what they did. They started writing articles saying that Dean was unelectable and folks were moving to the other candidates. This was clever. We actually hadn't seen that at the time but once they started saying it... over and over and over, it started to happen. They also started running tons of positive Kerry/Edwards letters to the editor and almost exclusively negative Dean letters. This was the most dishonest thing that they did since I know from a fact (my friend works at one of the papers as a clerk) that they had sack-fulls of positive Dean letters.

Even here in Iowa, the average citizen doesn't pay attention until the last minute... like writing your term paper the night before it's due. So that's the message they heard.

I was the Dean Precinct Captain for B12 in Bettendorf Iowa. I can't tell you how many people said "I was originally for Dean but I heard he can't win. We need to beat Bush". The press had created a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Secondly, Kerry and Edwards stole Dean's stump speech as folks started paying attention.

Third, Gephardt knew he was done ahead of time. His folks showed up with the poorest, most home-made posters I've ever seen. They didn't even try. So the message had gone out to them ahead of time to go to "anybody but Dean". Kucinich, who ironically is closest to Dean on policy, made a pact with the devil and told his folks to go to Edwards. I found that ironic since Edwards supported the war.

There you go. The press hammered Dean. Kerry and Edwards took his message so they could win, and most folks were truly "anybody but Bush". After being told in the Iowa press repeatedly for weeks that Dean couldn't win but Kerry could, Kerry roared out of nowhere.

I tell you these things to try to help the other states. Learn from this setback and let's take NH, SC and beyond!


Posted by Scott from Iowa at January 20, 2004 10:22 AM

-----------------

So, I wouldn't blame Dean's problems on the DLC per se -- but on people who are firmly part of the Dem Establishment, and that includes the top dogs of the DLC organization and a lot of its members.

[welshTerrier2]

38. thanks for your lengthy, thoughful response, Eloriel ...

a couple of quick points ...

i have seen numerous, almost regular, references to the fact that the DLC is somehow able to "make kerry win" ... i agree with your assessment of the situation that this is not the case ...

as to your observations about the "Dem establishment", let me make a couple of points ... first, being part of the "Dem establishment" and working against Dean is not necessarily unfair ... i suppose each action taken by this establishment should be subject to scrutiny ... many of the "campaign tactics" you listed are not necessarily out of bounds ... for example, i credit Dean for having brought many good ideas to the table ... and if they were good ideas, i'm glad, not critical that other candidates have jumped on the bandwagon ... as i said, being first does not necessarily make you the best candidate ...

and i'm not sure why we should blame the DLC (i really hate to defend them) for the one-shot campaign deal between kucinich and edwards ... i have the greatest respect for dennis ... if he made a deal, i believe it was because he thought it would be best for his campaign ...

many of the "dirty tricks" you listed are well beyond fair campaigning ... but i have no way of knowing whether kerry, edwards or the dlc itself is responsible for them ... always glad to look at more info ...

you focussed on the dem establishment ... you mentioned Vilsack's machine ... well, Harkin isn't exactly unknown or unskilled either ... in fact, isn't he part of the party's machinery too ??

i turned against Dean long ago for reasons that go beyond the focus here ... and i would support him enthusiastically if he wins the nomination ... but, if democrats can destroy his candidacy so quickly as witnessed by the results in Iowa and NH, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that he may not be that electable ...

my theme is "show me the money" ... when Dean wins, or Clark wins, or Edwards wins, they'll earn far more respect than they currently have ... kerry seems like the most electable today because he's winning ... to those who say that kerry's no different than bush, let's just say that one of us is really not understanding something ...

[ButterflyBlood]

16. I did until recently

but he isn't handling defeat too well. Calling Clark and Kerry Republicans was way low.

I think the real question is if any non-Kerry supporters still like him. And I don't mind him, but I definately don't think he's our strongest candidate.

[DjTj]

17. I still like Dean.

The people-powered campaign is very refreshing and his outspoken stance against the war and Bush was sorely needed in this campaign.

The longer Dean stays in the longer the other candidates will keep the heat on Bush, and that is definitely a good thing. It might be easier for us to play it safe, but Dean has kept us all honest.

I'm not convinced that he is the best man for the job, but he would do just fine in the White House and his effect on the race has been overwhelmingly positive.

[Rowdyboy]

18. Each time he calls any one of his opponents a Republican

my respect for him drops. Right now its pretty low. Not long ago he was my #2 choice of 9; Now he's #5 of 7 and Sharpton's starting to look good. Keep talking, Doctor, and you'll push yourself off the edge of my personal radar.

[cosmicdot]

19. each time he calls certain opponents Republican

he goes up in my book.

What I want to know ...
http://home.pacbell.net/dyewrks/gendean/genDean2.html

[Catt04]

21. Me

nt

[Trajan]

22. I love the Goodly Doctor ...

I love the intellectual General ..

I love the ANTI-Vietnam Vietnam POW/Hero ..

I love the Southern Lawyer who fights for the common folk ..

I love the passionate Preacher who knows how bad things are at the bottom rungs, and knows how to inform us of this ...

I even love the 'liberal' Senator from Connecticut, who's voting record speaks well to his progressivity, even if his spoken words dont ...

I'd vote for each and every one of our wonderful candidates ..

[For PaisAn]

41. what about Kucinich?

He's not on your list.

[Wolfman 11]

23. I liked Dean's fire in the beginning...

But I like him a little less now that I found out my girlfriend is infatuated with him. Whenever he comes on TV I have to get off the phone for a while.

[Bolo Boffin]

24. I like Dean just fine.

ABB all the way.

[seaglass]

25. You're not a Dean supporter?

[Cuban_Liberal]

28. Pretty clearly said he's my #2 choice.

Why do you ask?

[seaglass]

29. Hadn't seen you on many of the Edwards threads but have

seen you on a lot of Dean threads, thought you were leaning more towards Dean. I stand corrected.

[Cuban_Liberal]

33. Gotcha.

If Sen. Edwards starts getting Gore-d like Dr. Dean is being Gore-d, ypu'll see me in lots more Edwards' threads. :)

[BeatleBoot]

27. ABB, baby, ABB

:7

[andym]

30. I like him

I like him, and I think he has been treated unfairly. I think he has also made many errors, and I don't like the way he calls other candidates Republicans, etc.

[Eloriel]

37. You mean calls them on their Republican habits and

proclivities.

If the shoe fits ....

[For PaisAn]

42. No

He didn't "call Clark on his Republican habits", he called Clark a Republican. Clark has never been a Republican and Dean was wrong for calling him one.

[last_texas_dem]

32. I like Dean

Although I want Edwards to go up against * and feel I agree the most with Kucinich, I certainly like Howard Dean. This is after periods of him initially being my favorite candidate, and then a while of not caring for him as much as I do again now. I like his fighting spirit more than anything, and the fact that he's a "plain speaker." From what I've seen of it, his record in VT is a bit more conservative than I initially thought and he's waffled a bit more than I like on some issues, but the disgusting pile-on the media has engaged in since the "scream" has been disgusting in my eyes. I thought the "scream" was a nice effort to pump up his dispirited supporters, and I don't really get the controversy. Even if he's not the nominee I hope this campaign isn't the last we see of Howard Dean. I consider him a definite asset to our party.

[bushwakker]

34. Always liked Dean

He can't win so my money goes elsewhere.

[xultar]

39. I still like Dean? What of it? n/t

[Piperay]

43. Clarks my man but

I really like what Dean has to say, in different ways I like all of the Democratic candidates and that includes Lieberman (I like his smile).

[GOPBasher]

44. I do.

I'm a Clark supporter, but I like Dean a lot, too. I like all of our candidates. Any one of them will be a billion times better than the current "president."

[Seldona]

45. I am sure there are.

I am not one of them.

So many things he 'stands for' or has supposedly brought to this party I just don't see. No flames here, just the way I see it.

His Republican comments are not going over well with me either.