Here goes, a slight rant by a ticked off Kucinich supporter-

[diamondsoul]

"fringe leftist", new-age guru as one supposed former supporter calls him, the effin press writing him off as negligable...

Well G-dammit people, do you WANT THINGS TO BE DIFFERENT OR NOT?

40 supporters indeed! Please! The man is beloved among us for a lot of reasons! It has nothing to do with George Dubyah Bush because he's not worthy of our consideration. He's slime to be wiped off the boot of America, right along with his entire administration.

DUers, do you love yourselves? Your children? Humanity as a whole? How about the planet and what it's comprised of? Does anything matter except tomorrow to you??

If so then stop being cowardly and SHOW IT!

Dennis Kucinich in song-

Heaven's Here On Earth
by Tracy Chapman

You can look to the stars in search of answers
Look for God and life on distant planets
Have your faith in the everafter
While each of us holds inside the map the the labyrinth.
And heaven's here on Earth.

We are the spirit, the collective conscience
We create the pain and the suffering and the beauty in this world
Heaven's here on Earth.

In our faith in humankind
In our respect for what is Earthly
In our unfaltering belief in peace and love
and understanding.

I've seen and met angels wearing the disguies of ordinary people living ordinary lives.
Filled with love, compassion, forgiveness and sacrifice.
Heaven's in our hearts.

<snip>

I've seen spirits
I've met angels
I've touched creations beautiful and wondrous
I've been places
Where I question all I think I know

But I believe, I believe, I believe
This could be heaven here on Earth.

Now please tell me nobody here has experienced these things, these feelings, and I'll gladly shut up and go away. I don't think you will.

So then please tell me how anyone of them deserves the reverence they're given? Tell me how you don't support Kucinich, and why. Electability is a self-fulfilling prophecy, it means ZERO to me, so let's talk turkey here.

He can't beat Bush? Are you kidding me?! Show me ONE vulnerability to Bush on Kucinich's part. I'll beat it down, I guarantee it.

Bring it on, folks, let's debate why Kucinich CAN win and SHOULD win.

[LWolf]

1. Well, DS, I'd join the debate, but

you know you're preaching to the choir here.

I'm off to take care of some Kucinich business on this glorious day off...but I'll be back later to check responses.

[kalian]

2. Look....

IMHO...Kucinich is way ahead of his time. Kucinich needs to come back,
or someone like him, AFTER the US goes through the roughest period
in its history and that period has yet to come...
Kucinich is brilliant...he's smart and has excellent proposals but
the monopoly that churns out "candidates" sees him more as a threat
than as someone that can continue the presidential "line".
Kucinich would turn the political arena upside down on its head...
and that's precisely what corporations and the politicos don't want.

BTW...I'm still VERY much undecided when it comes to the final dem
candidate...but rest assured...neither Dean or Kerry figure on my
list.

[OhioStateProgressive]

25. give Bush 4 more years and Dennis will look REAL attractive(nt)

[SeveneightyWhoa]

3. LOL.

Leave it to a Kucinich supporter to post lyrics to a song to prove why their candidate should be president..

Kucinich can't win because: He's seen as a joke by most--you think there's a reason why liberal-leaners like Jon Stewart or David Letterman think he's hilarious? It's not because he's electable, I'll tell you that much.

He shouldn't win because: America will never, EVER, support such a left-wing president. Look what they did to Clinton, a centrist, for heavens sake.

[veggiemama]

11. What was it Gandhi said about the joke thing . . .

"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight. Then you win."

We will prevail because our cause is just.

[OhioStateProgressive]

15. and somepeople wonder why the term "sheeple" is used(nt)

[corporatewhore]

18. actually hes won in a reagan dem statein Ohio on a populist platform

for the working class he has beat several republican incumbants its not like hes some new england liberal from mass or vtand dk will lower mid class taxes

[diamondsoul]

52. And you-

Yeah, ok. Ask the general whether he thinks a lyric can apply to life and if not then what's the point of candidates theme music.

Yawn. Now I'm bored.

[pop goes the weasel]

4. rant on

It is disappointing that many Americans have so little faith in themselves that they are afraid to embrace the actualization of American ideals represented by Dennis.

But as for "fringe leftist"--hell, yes. It's true. DK is a fringe leftist in the eyes of the mainstream media. And this is incredibly sad. Have you taken a look at the Political Compass evaluation of the Democratic candidates? Look where Dennis is compared to the others. He and Al Sharpton are alone in the Left Libertarian quadrant. The sad part is that they are both close to the center, certainly closer to the center than me.

I'm an actual fringe leftist, according to the Political Compass, just about to fall off the edge it seems. And this leads to a rant on my part, and maybe some of you share it. I am always hearing about how "uncompromising" we are. Uncompromising?! My entire adult life, which is a few decades at this point, has been compromise. Even DK is too rightist for my taste, but Our Corporate Masters say that isn't enough of a compromise! The "sensible leftists" are supporting Kerry or Clark or Dean--my god, look at Dean! He is no where near the left! Being less of an authoritarian rightist than W is hardly a ringing call to the people's power! But the "sensible leftists" have compromised themselves to death. They may get their men in, but only by leaving their hopes behind.

[tmwat]

30. When did US politics get recalibrated?

Was it the Dem party move to the right that started it? How is it that Lieberman is considered a "centrist" and Kucinich is a "far-left, fringe" candidate.... seems like not too long ago, Lieberman would be a registered Republican and Kucinich would be a traditional FDR Dem.

In the words of WRP:

"Dennis Kucinich reminds people why they are Democrats, why they are progressives, in the first place. He is the soul and the spirit of those beliefs personified, he is Franklin Delano Roosevelt returned, walking and talking and preaching in the 21st century."

[pop goes the weasel]

35. During the Reagan years

when the media successfully redefined "liberal" as "left" and "left" as "non-existent." But we aren't non-existent, we are still here, and does it ever annoy them when they are reminded.

[RichM]

5. I spent 4 hrs going door-to-door in my precinct for Dennis yesterday.

It was pretty interesting, actually. There is unquestionably a certain percent of people in my famously progressive town who understand that this guy is something special. There is also a large percent who say, "I love what he says - but he can't win, so I'm voting in the primary for Dean (or Kerry)."

If everyone who says "I love what he says, but ... I'm voting for X" would just vote for him, his support would be astonishing to many.

[Terwilliger]

9. yes, but it's not going to happen

so...do we back Dennis until the convention? To what end?

[RichM]

19. To what end? Suppose Dennis got 6% of the California primary vote.

Even a modestly-improved showing like that, which is not altogether inconceivable, could have positive repercussions. It would be noticed. People would see that a progressive agenda including a heavy dose of truth-telling -- even when minimally funded & virtually ignored by the media -- has some significant grass-roots support. It would be impressive that a real "peoples' candidate" could get that far, in a competition with far better-funded more conventional figures. It would encourage future progressives to come forward. It would lend strength to the progressive side of future debates.

The converse is also painful to even think about: that you could have an extraordinarily truthful evolved guy like this come forth with such great proposals, offering things Americans really want -- & that he could be completely shut out of the running, being judged not on the merit of his ideas, but by physical appearance and by what TV says (or ignores).

For me, personally, it's easy to back him until the convention -- because none of the other candidates appeal to me. I can stand some of them, but that's about it.

[Terwilliger]

23. we could be spending time on someone else

who will not be shut down and extracted from his own "party" by forces that have no interest in people like him or what he's voting for

Dennis is in the wrong party, and his effect on the outcome this year will be.... What am I saying? Kerry has already won...we're all just mish-moshing on the hope that some small change in position will occur b/c we "believe" in something.

I believe that the Democratic party is a centrist institution that has nearly eradicated any kind of progressivism.

[pop goes the weasel]

24. are you throwing in the towel? n/t

[Terwilliger]

27. throwing in the towel?

did I HAVE a towel to throw in?

[pop goes the weasel]

32. I should hope so

You should never be without your towel! And whatever you do, DON'T PANIC!

Come on, don't give up. The world is too full of people who have given up. Don't add to their number.

[Terwilliger]

41. but I'd be joining the majority!

you know...those that don't vote!

[pop goes the weasel]

43. hey!

People died so you could vote, so don't you ever give that right away. Every person who does not vote gives more power to those who do. And who still votes? The majority of the well-heeled, privileged classes, that's who. Don't give them your power. Vote for spite's sake, if for no other reason, until you find once again that you can vote for hope's sake.

[Terwilliger]

44. you're right!

I'll vote third-party

[Tinoire]

29. Terwilliger- you're my friend and all that but wow- who would you

rather spend time on? I'm sticking with Kucinich to the end; the horses are barely out of the gate and you're already giving up. Remind me to give you a copy of Aesop's Fables for Christmas... Slow and steady CAN win a race especially if people work at waking up America. A defeatist attitude ensures defeat- not good, not good at all! No mountain is too high to climb, you just have to start and go for it!

Go for it my friend!

[Terwilliger]

39. I'd rather go work for Chavez

he has a better chance than Dennis does

It's great, all this belief in things, and dogged determination in putting his message out there...but no one is listening to his message, and no one would accept it even if they were willing to listen.

I am not defeatist. There are no doubts in my mind.

I still say Dennis should talk to the Green party about representing them in the national election this year.

[tinanator]

54. A very interesting post

shall we call it "provocative"? Or just the worst idea imaginable?
What more can I say that wont result in "problems"?

[Terwilliger]

55. what difference tin?

what difference???

tell me!!

show me!!

[tinanator]

56. sorry, I dont understand the question?

Is it ye olde "dimes worth" question? Please spare me a complete sentence, and I will do my best to respond.

[Terwilliger]

58. nevermind

I'm just wrong, I'm sure.

Oh, let me know how Kerry addresses Mumia and Leonard Pelletier.

[tinanator]

60. huh?

I thought this thread was about Kucinich? The one guy you can expect to support political prisoners in their struggle against the fucks who put them there? You are behind DK, arent you?

[pop goes the weasel]

13. good for you

It shows a lack of faith in other people to assume that other Americans would not be attracted to strong progressive ideals. We don't live in a country of vile, selfish idiots, but sometimes it seems we, as Americans, believe we do. The truth is that people are generous and loving. We need to rekindle faith in each other so that we can build a better future.

[Tinoire]

26. Welcome back! Is that where you've been hiding? Awesome!

What a thrill to see you again. Please PM me and send me your tel number; I've lost it & there's something coming up soon that you may be interested in...

Thanks for keeping the faith. Efforts like yours are what's going to make the difference!

Peace

[tmwat]

33. What % of DU'ers would vote DK if they voted their conscience?

For the primary only. Has there been a recent DU poll asking this question?

[LWolf]

45. It's been asked at least once

that I recall. If memory serves me right, Dennis got significantly more votes in that poll than he does in the straight "who will you vote for" polls.

He gets way more verbal support than votes. I say, put your votes where your support is!

Welcome to DU.

[nancyharris]

6. The issues and ideas that Congressman Kucinich talks about in 2004

will be part of the mainstream Democratic platform in 2008. Cutting the defense budget, single-payer universal health care and disassociating the country from NAFTA and the WTO will be core Democratic concerns.

[ButterflyBlood]

8. then that's the time for him to run

he ain't going nowhere now.

[Zomby Woof]

7. I think my opinion on this matter

Is well known. :-)

[ButterflyBlood]

10. I can face reality

simply, people like Kucinich don't get elected, or even nominated. Like me, he's on the fringe of American politics, but I can see that fringe candidates don't get nominated, be them left or right. How good did Pat Robertson and Gary Bauer do? The same is true for us.

Just look at the polls, and the results in the recent caucuses. Anyone who thinks his campaign can go anywhere is just deluding themselves.

[pop goes the weasel]

12. what good does it do you

to support a candidate who is far from what you believe in?

There are plenty of moderates and conservatives who can support the mainstream candidates. By your "facing reality," you obscure the reality of the depth of support for change. You become part of the problem.

Why not hold off on supporting the moderate candidate until after the convention, and support the candidate you truly prefer before then, since you don't believe that the fringe candidates get the nomination anyways? At least you could have some impact on the final platform, but by supporting a moderate candidate from the get-go, you give away all your power, small as it may be.

[Nay]

22. This is exactly my strategy. I will vote Kucinich in the primary, and

go with whoever is nominated in the GE. I can't get away from the fact that I am 100% behind Kucinich's ideas, so it makes sense for me to vote for the guy. I am not hurting anyone by voting for him -- I am allowing the Dems to see that not every Dem voter wants a "centrist" -- lots of us think this country is veering so far to the right that we can already hear the jackboots.

But, of course, I will vote ABB in the GE. It still is depressing to watch Kerry all of a sudden become the anointed one just because he won two states. BFD. But that's how the ad industry and this whole country work -- if you ain't the one big winner, you're a big loser and not worthy of any more attention.

[blm]

14. He's not a "fringe leftist"...he is much more mainstream than people know

or what the press WANTS people to know.

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Absolutely, and most people are afraid to support someone unless

they see hordes of other people supporting him first.

DUers exhibit this same herd behavior that they criticize in others.

[Tinoire]

31. That's for sure. Single-payer health care? Even the KKK would like

that one but a candidate proposing that is DOA for the corporate media. I'm taking back my country, one issue at a time and all of those isssues lead me to Kucinich.

I know there are some who say we must do this gradually but I can't tolerate gradual justice. How long must we wait? Must we wait until we are dead and unable to see the changes because that's the rate we're moving at.

Thanks BLM and peace to you. You do your candidate honor.

[tinanator]

57. word

word up

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kanary]

17. Why the DEms keep losing

Over and over and over again, from many corners, columnists and those who have the COURAGE to talk about the real issues, have said the same thing. That is, that until/unless the DEMS stop trying to cozy up to the right, and stop trying to win by backpedaling, the DEMS will continue to be indistinguishable from the right wing.

It is only in clearly defining a position quite in opposition to the right that the DEMS have any hope at all of gaining the ear of the electorate. OF COURSE voters have tuned out! For most people, the issues simply haven't been addresssed for quite some time. Even when they thought someone was hearing them, they were later discouraged once again to find that they were sold down the river (for example, Clinton's NAFTA, etc.) Of course they are distrustful and apathetic.

The hope comes in putting forth someone who actually has a much different view, and knows how to articulate it.

The hope comes in supporting someone who doesn't just give canned speeches, but knows how to LISTEN, and keeps connecting with the people he meets at rallies.

The hope comes in having a candidate who isn't there to further the interests of hidden big corporations, but has the courage to stand on his own two feet and speak his heart.

What Dennis stands for isn't LEFT or RIGHT or CENTRIST: It's people centered. Always has been for him, and always will be. BEcause HE LISTENS.

Kanary

[iowapeacechief]

59. DK not Left or Right?

Kanary wrote: "What Dennis stands for isn't LEFT or RIGHT or CENTRIST: It's people centered. Always has been for him, and always will be. BEcause HE LISTENS."


A personal testimony:

During the night and early morning of May 5-6, 2003, I enjoyed the privilege of several hours up close to Dennis Kucinich, first watching him speak to antiwar students in Iowa City and union supporters in Cedar Rapids and then driving him to Chicago.

Riding through the night, just the two of us, we talked long about the evolution of the man and his ideas since his Cleveland-mayor years. We talked about being out of work and out of favor, about working for peace as a practical pursuit, about trying to be good dads while working for social change.

For me it was a remarkable meeting of minds and spirits. He listened to me, and I felt profoundly heard. And I realized it wasn't just about me. I felt this was a man who connects deeply with people--as individual persons--hour after hour, day after day. (Since then I've seen enough more of him to be sure of it.)

When I urged him to tip back his seat and sleep (he would get no more than three hours' sleep before his early flight to Washington, DC), he said he didn't need much sleep, and we kept talking. He did tip back finally during the last hour, but even then spoke up several times to ask whether I was staying awake okay! (I was. I am a professional driver. We talked about his father the truck driver, too.)

Looking back, I think the moment I really decided I was on his team came early in our conversation (before he could have known where I was coming from), when I asked whether he really considers himself "on the Left" or whether those labels mean anything to him.

"On what topic?" he countered. For me, that was exactly the right answer, and our exchange rolled on from there.

[cryofan]

21. We can only hope that eventually we get a nominee who has...

....Dennis Kucinich's beliefs hidden inside of him. Because we will never get Dennis as the nominee.

[leftbend]

28. The view is amazing

from out here on the "fringe".

[NashVegas]

34. Yes, I Do Want Change

But I'm also pragmatic enough to realize that Kucnich, with whom I agree on so many policies, would, if President, be dealing with a hostile legislature. If he were to try get legislation through, he'd have to compromise so much of what he stands for that his entire Presidency would appear compromised and he'd be damaged goods, politically.

[buddhamama]

36. DK has my unwavering support

why you ask? read my sig, if that isn't DK courage, hope and love... :shrug:

[funky_bug]

37. You know, I love Dennis

When I watch him in debates, I think to myself, "now there's a guy with conviction... with great ideas... with passion and committment..." and then he says he's going to lay his hands on America and heal it, and I groan.

He's got great ideas, and he's as radical as they come, and I love him for it, but his department of peace, his trip to planet earth, and his healing hands are the reasons why it's so hard to view him as electable. I think he's a finer man that just about anyone running right now, but I have to apologize for not having enough faith in the American people and the disgruntled republicans to put my support behind him. When people tell me they love Dennis, I just say, "Me too."

[tmwat]

40. I'm curious to know what's the thinking behind this....

that these proposals would make him unelectable.

is it your initial (uncomfortable?) reaction to his proposals of a cabinet-level dept. of peace, healing hands, and trip to planet earth (i must've missed this one) that form the basis for your conclusion?

or, are you personally OK with them but don't think that they'll be widely accepted?

or, is it the actual logic and vision behind the proposals that you find unappealing?

[funky_bug]

48. Aside from verbage

It's that I feel they won't be widely accepted. It's sort of that "love child" way that Kucinich puts things that get heard... not the sentiment behind them, unfortunately. The media just picks up what they want to frame a candidate the way they want to.

[diamondsoul]

51. 'Scuse, please-

I AM a "love child" and I do NOT appreciate a descriptor of who I am and why I exist being used to insult others.

Love child in-effing-deed! Then by all I hold dear, I'm a love child, a freakin' HIPPY! I don't care. I'm grown, I look around and I give a flying fig. Where are the rest of you?

[MaggieSwanson]

50. reference to trip to planet earth

I first heard in a rally in Iowa. Dennis was speaking about Bush, how he needs to take a trip to planet earth before he sends someone to Mars.

[pop goes the weasel]

42. you make a legitimate point.

DK does come off as flaky sometimes. But I have to wonder if that may simply be that we, as a society, need to re-evaluate how we interact with the world around us. The media image pushes "sophisticated" and "rational" and "clear-thinking." But who had the sophistication, the clarity, the reason to see in 2002 that there was no evidence for the existence of WMD in Iraq? Look, I'm an atheist, and sometimes DK just leaves me shaking my head, but I appreciate a person who is actually able to employ rules of logic in dealing with evidence, especially when lives are on the line. If DK is flaky, then we need a lot more of that sort of flakiness.

Yes, the Department of Peace sounds like a flaky idea, too, on the face of it. When I first heard of it, it was on a bumpersticker, and I just thought it was a bumpersticker idea to get people to think about peace. But damned if DK didn't actually have a policy to back it up, and good logical reasons for it too. Why shouldn't the federal government be putting resources into non-violent conflict resolution? Why not address issues before they become violent problems? If that is flaky, call me flaky too.

So DK says he wants to put his hands on the nation and heal it. Well, good for him. He's a warm-hearted human being who speaks out of his particular spiritual tradition. It is possible to play up that tendency as a positive rather than a negative. Look, here's a vegan who wants to help small livestock operations, not close them down. Talk about a uniter, not a divider! You love Dennis? It's obvious that he loves you back! Now really, what's so flaky about love?

[LWolf]

46. Excellent question.

What is so flaky about love?

It's obvious to me that when it comes to being a uniter, Dennis is again ahead of the pack. What people don't want to see; that he already works well with others in progressing towards the highest good.

[Mika]

49. Thank you, pop goes the weasel!!

There is nothing flaky about love. For me, and I suspect for DK too, love is the reason for pushing bravely forward for what is just and therefore beautiful. I am jealous of Dennis K too, because he can, and is doing what I can't do. So, I give his campaign money.



Sadly, only ONE candidate for
US president openly states that he
would end the unjust and insane
policy of sanctions and embargoes
against Cuba AND Americans.

That candidate is Dennis Kucinich.

-The Democratic Presidential Candidates on Cuba-
http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/Misc/prez-candidates1.htm

[AZCat]

61. You know what sounds flaky to me?

"Weapons of Mass Destruction Program Related Activites"

THAT sounds flaky.

Love and peace? Emminently sensible.
Where did we go wrong?

[Desertrose]

38. diamondsoul...I could "rant" any better than you just did!

I agree completely...
It just doesn't get any better than Dennis ...so what is wrong with people??

wish I knew...too much fear?
Dennis will certainly help with that....a trustworthy man...

....sigh......

ROCK ON,GIRL!
:loveya:
DR

[no name no slogan]

47. You said it better than I could (n/t)

:kick:

[Cheesehead]

53. Dennis has my vote any time he is on the ballot

He is an inspiration and a reminder that there can still be humanity in politics.