What *IS* a liberal/progressive? A misunderstanding from my last thread.

[Meldread]

Early, early this morning I made this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2465629&mesg_id=2465629

However, I think the posters of that thread misunderstood what I was trying to say so I am going to try again here.

First off, let me start off by saying I realize that there are organizations out there that support more liberal candidates than the DLC. I understand and realize that. However, those organizations support various different types of candidates that they label as "progressive" or "liberal". The problem I have with that is that they do not define what they consider liberal or progressive to be. I know folks who believe George W. Bush is to the left of center! I know people who would classify Zell Miller as being "slightly on the left". I also know people who would consider Howard Dean as right of center or even squarely on the right.

Here is what I want: I want a set of values, and I want those values to be labeled "Democratic Core Values". Support of those values would be the litmus test every Democrat must pass in order to be considered a Democrat. Those are the values that the Democratic Party must show, as a whole, unwavering support in favor.

When I say "Republican Party" do you know the first few key issues that come to my mind? Anti-Gay, Pro-Gun, Pro-Christian and Anti-Choice. When I say "Democratic Party" do you know what the first few key issues come to my mind? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Are we Pro-Choice? Well.. kinda... sorta... maybe... it depends. Are we pro-gay? Depends on who we ask. Are we Pro-Christian... errr... sometimes. Are we Pro-Gun? Well, yeah... but mostly in the south... Do you see where I am going with this?

For a moment empty your mind of everything you think you know about politics. Then scroll down.





































Welcome to the mind of the average American voter. Someone who knows absolutely nothing about politics, and doesn't really care about it either. Do you want to know why George W. Bush and Republicans win? It's for this very reason, and it is for this same reason that the Democratic Party looses. The average American voter is just as likely to vote for you because they like your personality, as for a certain issue you happen to stand on. Ask the average American voter about certain key issues and they have opinions on them. Who doesn't? Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and all of them stink but your own. Ask the average American voter if Candidate X supports them on a certain issue (other than one the Republicans are strong on) and nine times out of ten they won't have a clue.

Want an example? Jump back to Election 2004. At the beginning John Kerry and George W. Bush held the exact same stance on gay marriage - in fact it really didn't change all that much. They both supported civil unions (up until Karl Rove began the gay culture wars) and they both said no to gay marriage. However, ask the average American voter where John Kerry stood? Eight times out of ten he'd say he was pro-gay marriage and most likely they'd also believe George W. Bush was anti-Civil Unions.

Do you think the average American citizen even *UNDERSTANDS* what Globalization or NAFTA is? Better yet... do YOU? Could you sit down and write a detailed report on Globalization and NAFTA? I'm willing to bet that you can't, and what's more you are "informed" whereas the majority of American's are not.

What I proposed in the other thread was clearly defining what a progressive person was, writing it down in simple terms that are easy to remember and understand (AKA "Buzz Words"), forming something akin to the DLC that will support those causes, electing Democrats who support us, and then - over a period of time - eliminating Democrats who do not.

There are three things that plague America when it comes to politics: Ignorance, Apathy and Disinterest. I want Democrats to win, and I want that victory to be complete - and I want it to be a progressive and liberal victory, not a half assed centrist victory that involved capitulation and triangulation. I want a party of values, not a party of opinions.

Different flavors are a good thing in ice cream, but it's a piss poor thing to have in a political party.

[snowbear]

1. If you think Republicans are "pro-Christian"

..you've never heard the filthy HATE mongering on their websites!

One thing is clear. They "use" religion to try and gain votes from Evangelicals.

"Pro-Christian" is a completely bogus term though and is an insult to many, many Democrats right here at DU.

[Meldread]

2. I realize that, and you are missing the point.

If that is all you gained from that entire post, then you have obviously missed the point. The point was about PERCEPTION. Not all Republican's are anti-choice, nor anti-gay, nor even are they all pro-gun. However THEY ARE PERCEIVED TO BE THAT WAY.

You obviously did not completely empty your mind about everything you know about politics. That is how I know you missed the point. You aren't thinking like average Joe, you are thinking like Larissa. Average Joe believes Republican's are Pro-Christian and are as close as you can get to Jesus without going to Church. It does not matter if it is true or not, average Joe believes it to be true and therefore in his mind it is.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Our value should be sharing and fairness and not greed

Greed is the definition of the Republican party, imho, and greed is what they appeal to in voters. What we need to do is to show the positive virtues of sharing-such as sharing the pain when it comes to changing to renewable fuel, and showing Americans that sharing is the only fair way of doing things. So we say it is fair that the oil corporations pay excise taxes on excessive profits, and that the money be used to find a more renewable fuel source.

[Meldread]

7. That's all well and nice, but that's a crappy sales pitch.

"Support these things because it's nice and fair."

That doesn't work. Greed sells, appeal to what people want and you can sell them things.

"Support renewable energy because it'll cost less to fill your car up with gas."

That translates into something people would care about and understand.

Apathy, Ignorance and Disinterest are the three things you must fight against. Grab their interest by promising to save them money at the pump, eliminate their ignorance by telling them how, and then use that to cure their apathy to get them to the polls on election day.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Obviously my approach doesn't work

Each of the prophets and leaders of the world's religions has said that we should be fair and be good to one another, and look what people have done with it. You are correct. To win (which is the only point, obviously), we should appeal only to people's baser natures. Heck, we should also maybe "improve" on our line by saying some things that maybe aren't all correct. But the ends justify the means, right?

[Meldread]

10. Yes, look at what people have done with it.

Look no further than the Religious Right. Look no further than fundamentalist Islamists. Look no further than communist countries.

It's a nice fluffy dream to believe that someday the world will become gentle and fair. Maybe it will someday, but by that time both you and I will be long dead and forgotten. This is the world we live in, right now, today, a world filled with greed, and yes in a world where the ends justify the means.

If your goal is to encourage the use of alternative energy, then what difference does it make if you phrase it as "fair and just" or as "something that will save you money at the pump". It's not a lie, it's true, and it'll get their attention and bring them out to the polls.

You can have all the best intentions in the world, but if you don't win it doesn't make a damn difference.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. Yep

winning is everything. Idealism is out the window. Screw anyone with any sense of faith and religion, mock them and remind them that the world will never get better, and when we die we die, so why try and be good and decent and teach our children morality? Mankind is beastial, will never get better, and therefore we should do nothing except exploit each other in the most efficient manner possible to further our own ends. After all, anyone who has ideals just is a fluffy dreamer.

[tocqueville]

4. it's not so much a question of values but a question of program

I seldom see here proposals of concrete measures to improve the life of millions of Americans. Values are relative. They can be shared by people with very different opinions how to solve problems. And a political party can be democratically united behind a strategy, despite the fact that opinions differ. Monolithic parties, with "everybody having the same opinion" are doomed to fail in the end. Because it is the internal debate that makes the party live. But when consensus is achieved, everybody works for the same goal...

[Meldread]

5. Well, that's what I am prosing.

Not all Republicans are anti-gay, pro-gun and anti-choice, yet the party as a whole moves in that direction. Those are considered "Values" that the party supports. It provides the framework for the "program". You can't have a program unless you have a set of values. They are not mutually exclusive.

However, I do agree - and that would be Step #2 after deciding our core values.

STEP 1: Define our values
STEP 2: Define how it will improve the lives of Americans
STEP 3: Find people to run for office advocating for them
STEP 4: Repeat step 3 as many times as necessary until victory is achieved

(Okay, that's a gross over simplification, but I hope you get the point.)

[EXDIA53]

8. I'm not sure we can do that...

because of the big tent problem. Sure, I think we should, because we'll never win without defining ourselves. I've been mauled many times for trying to define what I think are Democratic core values that we could win on. The problem is their are so many Democratic activists who have one or two special issues that they feel have to be the "face" of the party. This is what usually gets the great middle to vote GOP - fear and a refusal by Dems to lead with what the most voters find attractive. I'm not saying dump gay rights, just don't lead with it. This is my list:
1. ECONOMIC JUSTICE, including real middle class jobs and a tax structure that calls on the have-mores to give more.
2. INVOLVEMENT IN INTERNATIONAL UNDERSTANDING, not Cowboy diplomacy (warfare). I'm not a pacifist, and I think Al Quaeda should be
crushed, but let's tidy up Iraq and leave.
3. RATIONAL ENERGY POLICY. "let's drill more" doesn't cut it.
4. EDUCATION. In the 21st century, should we leave funding to local districts?

Coming across as weak on defense, as apologists for Muslim extremists, and as primarily interested in "choice" will not win us the votes we need. Another problem is the Democratic disconnect. The average DUer, if there is such a person, is several degrees to the left of the average center-left voter, and many DUers use an angry, foul-mouthed approach that really offends red state voters that could be persuaded to vote blue. Left of center Dems need to see what sells in Iowa, Kentucky and Arizona. Much of what I've read on this board won't fly there.

[Meldread]

11. I pretty much agree.

It has always been the problem of the left. We in fight too much. While the right take on a "united we stand, divided we fall" approach, the left is to busy throwing spears at one another to notice what is going on.

That's why, frankly, I think there needs to be an organization to stand up and basically force all the various groups to fall into line. We can get everything we want, but damn it, we have to work together to get it.

As a gay person, I don't care if the Democratic Party leads with gay rights as a flagship issue or not, as long as I know the damn party isn't going to leave me on a sinking ship and isn't going to let the Republicans eat me alive.

[Klukie]

12. You are dead on!

As a party of free-thinkers our party finds it hard to conform and stand strong on even a few major issues. As a result we tend to look flaky. I think for the most part we are a reasonable, rational group who generally agree on the issues you list. I just don't understand why that can't be portrayed.

[Lorien]

6. The Progressive agenda from Progressive Majority:

The Progressive Majority Agenda: A Future Worth Fighting For

No one agrees on everything — especially progressives. But here at Progressive Majority, our focus is on the common sense values that unite us. We're solely devoted to electing people who will lead the fight for economic justice, civil rights, health care, education, the environment, and reproductive freedom.

Most Americans want a more just, more enlightened country — one that pays its workers a living wage, that bans sweatshops and keeps our food safe, that guarantees comprehensive affordable health care for all, that invests in high quality education for our children, that ensures dignity and security for seniors, that protects civil and political rights, that stays out of our bedrooms and private lives, and that works to protect the air we breathe, and the water we drink. These are majority positions — just not in the current Congress or many state legislatures. With your help, we aim to change that fact.

Progressive Majority will recruit candidates and help to finance and organize their campaigns. What will we look for? We'll look for leaders, not careerists; for stalwarts, not trimmers; for workers, not shirkers.

What issues will we expect them to support? A set of issues based on common sense and common decency. Our agenda is designed to unite progressives around a set of core concerns while still allowing us to promote a multi-issue progressive agenda that we expect our candidates to champion.

We're electing progressive leaders on the basis of their principles and their ability to champion a broad progressive agenda. Learn more about some of the positive progressive ideas worth pursuing:
Economic Justice
Civil rights
Health Care
Education
Environment
Reproductive Freedom

What principles will they fight for? The ones that matter to our democracy.

http://www.progressivemajority.org/values/

[Armstead]

15. That sums it up pretty good

Those are broad enough values that I beleve most decent people with half a brain could support if it was clearly the Democratic agenda.

It's possible to have differing views on the specific methods and extent, but as core goals and values, those capture it quite well.

Anyone who doesn't agree with those principles is so narrow minded, self-destructive, self-centered and bigoted that they aren't worth trying to persuade anyway.

[omega minimo]

16. aka "to Promote the General Welfare" or

Which wing of which party will end Corporate Welfare and the gutting of the American economy?

That's the value right now we ALL have in common, unless we're related to the Robber Barons.

[Klukie]

13. In a perfect political world ...

we would have more than the two parties to represent us all in the election process. The reality is that we don't. Like it or not we are given the choice of democrat/republican and that is a small space to encompass so many views. We must work with what we are given. Unfortunately in the process some views will be lost, but it is crucial that we don't lose sight of the big picture. If we don't stand united on some core issues then the gop wins again and we will have no views.