Dean too honest for the United States?

[teach1st]

I haven't committed to a Democratic candidate yet. But watching Howard Dean on MTP this morning, I can't help but be impressed by his honesty and straightforwardness. Is it real? Is Dean too honest for media-driven United States politics?

[joshcryer]

1. Yes.

He tells it like he sees it. It's what blew me away from the first time I saw him speak.

[isbister]

2. I don't think he's honest

never have.

[joshcryer]

5. Any president that talks about raising taxes...

...is honest at least partially (I do not think any politician is truely honest). Remember Mondale.

[isbister]

12. He has said honest things

I agree.

[DemLikr]

21. Are you going to support that opinion with any specific evidence?

Thank you.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

37. Here's a few...

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6147-2003Dec16.html

In recent days, Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) said Dean lacks the "credibility" to be president and accused him of misleading voters about past remarks on Iraq. One example cited by Kerry's campaign: Dean recently said, "I never said Saddam was a danger to the United States. Ever." But in September 2002, Dean told CBS's "Face the Nation": "There is no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States. The question is: Is he an immediate threat?"

Last week, after Dean denied providing a tax break as governor that benefited Enron Corp. -- which a published report showed he did -- Gephardt said: "Once again, Howard Dean refuses to admit the truth. You can't beat George W. Bush if you can't tell the truth about your own record." Tricia Enright, a Dean spokeswoman, called the quarrel a difference of "interpretation." Dean, she said, restructured the Vermont tax code for scores of companies and did not provide a specific break to Enron.

In January, Dean told an abortion-rights audience about a young patient he believed had been impregnated by her father. He was explaining why he opposes parental notification requirements for girls and young women seeking an abortion. But Dean later told Jake Tapper of Salon.com that he learned several years ago that "her father was not the father of her child; it was more complicated than that."

But lately, as he courts liberal Democrats nationwide, Dean has distorted portions of his record as governor, when he was generally considered a centrist. He repeatedly has denied siding with Republicans such as then-Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) in 1995 in calling for slowing Medicare's annual growth from 10 percent to 7 percent, even though he told a Vermont newspaper he "fully subscribed" to the idea.

[DemLikr]

40. I was responding to Isbister, but thanks for your help

Your examples are weak, nit-picking, and inconsequential.

Are YOU one hundred percent perfect in all your statements and affairs? Please name a human being who is...thanks.

And let me remind you that john kerry is likewise open to many "examples" of his own "dishonesty."

And no, I won't provide them. You know they exist. My main point is that any one of the nine original Dem candidates would seem to me to be a huge improvement over GWB in ALL categories, including levels of honesty.

And levels and degrees are what we're talking about here...NO ONE is flawless. Thank goodness.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

44. These examples go on and on and on and they add up to a very

discomforting picture...

[DemLikr]

48. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... You're Candy Crowley, aren't you?

"discomforting picture!": that's right out of the Corporate Newspeak Handbook.

Try this: :John Kerry's obvious Botox job, and his decision to lie about it, and his wife's admitted use of cosmetic procedures all add up to a discomforting picture of a man who is uncomfortable in his own (real) skin; and who marries women who are false and plastic."

Now I see how this works...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Cheswick2.0]

22. yeah? What has he been dishonest about?

?

[NashVegas]

3. Quite Possible - And Quite Sad

"Don't harm the messenger" didn't come out of nowhere.

At some point, the dam is going to break. If it breaks sooner than later, people will look at Dean with more respect.

[Renew Deal]

4. If you thought Dean was honest, read this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=246213

[MMT]

6. Maybe that was ignorance, not dishonesty?

I don't think Dean is honest either, but that particular example seems poor to me.

[NashVegas]

11. Is That the Thread

that uses sham evidence to make an accusation?

[Renew Deal]

13. This is simple

Dean said he stopped lobbying 4 years ago. The truth is that he registered to lobby less than 3 years ago.

[RetroLounge]

25. 2 Different things, but you knew that

Registered to lobby <> Lobbying.

Getting a drivers lisence <> Driving.

Try again...

[NashVegas]

30. If I May Draw an Analogy

If I went and bought a tube of KY last night, does that necessarily mean I had sex since the purchase?

Neal may have been lobbying, but we certainly don't know that from the letter that was posted.

[DemLikr]

32. Could your point be any more nit-picky?

Given the volume of information and material these candidates try to remember and manage, you might consider giving Dean a break here.

What human can live up to these insane, arbitrarily applied "rules" of honesty?

The answer would be no one. And your nit-nit-picking-picking with a fine tooth lice comb under a neutron micrscope is a small example of why most intelligent, talented people run screaming from electoral office.

They become a target for everyone, from the media to the general public, to attack as a means of working out their own personal neuroses.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. Dean did not say Neel had not been a lobbiest for four years

That's not what Dean said.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

7. He is not really truthful and above board. That's the problem.

If he were all of us here would be lined up for him... His rhetoric does not match his actions OR his record. He claims to be open, honest, anti-corporation, anti-lobbyist but has a lobbyist running his campaign. He tooks money from energy PACs at the beginning of his campaign.

He was extremely pro-corporation in Vermont when he was Governor.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm

.....Who is the real Howard Dean? Is he the left-of-center insurgent being portrayed in the press or the business-friendly fiscal conservative and pragmatic moderate who governed Vermont for 11 years? Many who worked with Dean are astonished at his current image and comparisons to liberal icons such as George McGovern. "The Howard Dean you are seeing on the national scene is not the Dean that we saw around here for the last decade," says John McClaughry, president of the Ethan Allen Institute, a conservative Vermont think tank. "He's moved sharply left."

Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required. Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the "civil unions" law and a radical revamping of public school financing -- were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean.

......Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project.


-snip-

Still, Dean had a knack for positioning himself and never lost an election. Those who know him best believe Dean is moving to the left to boost his chances of winning the nomination. "But if he gets the nomination, he'll run back to the center and be more mainstream," predicts Stenger. Says Garrison Nelson, a political science professor at the University of Vermont: "Howard is not a liberal. He's a pro-business, Rockefeller Republican."....While balancing the budget and keeping defense expenditures intact, that would leave precious little room for new liberal programs. What it more likely would leave are a lot of dashed expectations among the crowd that so fervently wants the doctor to be in.

[Armstead]

8. You miss the point

Dean is a moderate. He is not an ultra liberal.

However, liberals can reconcile that because he is a moderate who sees the bogger problem, and he represents a step towards a cleaner and more honest politics. Not the destination, but moving in the direction.

Vermont is a small state, and in this part of the world, being business-friendly does not mean what it does on a national level. The scale and issues are different.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

14. Fine - but then he shouldn't call others "pro-corporate" "pro-lobbyist"

and criticize them for it when he has a record of doing it himself and has a lobbyist running his campaign. In my book - that's being dishonest and hypocritical.

[Armstead]

20. Being pro-business is not the same as pro-corporate

What we need is to get things back to a more level playing field. A governopr bringing jobs to his state is not the same as voting for national bills and supporting policies that are turning the entire economy over to the corporate oligarchy.

As for hiring Neel...I wish he hadn't, but Dean is trying to rebuild the Democratic Party, not destroy it. To rebuild you need the whole party, incluing the participation of insiders who know their way around.

[leyton]

17. Cleaner politics?

Then why does he complain of being attacked because he is the frontrunner and then, once he's no longer the frontrunner, turn around and call Clark and Kerry Republicans? Why does he say that he would be outraged if other candidates didn't accept matching funds, and then, once he's raising money, turn around and forgo the matching funds? I have lost all respect for Dean.

[Cheswick2.0]

31. you are complaining about Dean and lobbiests when you candidate

Was still a lobbiest when he decided to run for President?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

My candidate isn't a hypocrite and "act holier than thou" like Dean does

Dean slams people for doing the same exact things he does.

[DemLikr]

49. But your candidate is obviously "uncomfortable in his own skin..."

..." and doesn't know who he really is."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Darth_Kitten]

9. He was HOT.......

scorching baby, scorching!!! ;) :evilgrin: :bounce:

He impresses me. :D

[quinnox]

10. I have always thought Dean belongs on a pedestal

in public parks. Dean is purer than the driven snow. And if he should not be successful in this White House bid, I think a televangelist would be a great new career path for him.

[ecstatic]

15. Yes. Like they say, nice guys finish last

That's just the way we are. Far too often, We prefer tough, mysterious people who plays games.

[ozone_man]

16. yes.

Wished I had seen the show, but yes, he may be too honest to get elected. I will be supporting him all the way.

It is a sad commentary on our country, but we have known this for so long. Dean was just a great hope that we might be able to break on through to the other side.

[mzmolly]

18. Yep, Amerikunz want politicians who are slippery and wishy washy

pathetic aint it?

[gulliver]

19. Honest and occasionally foolish. Bad combo. n/t

[Armstead]

26. It's impossible to be honest without being occasionally foolish

That's part of the point. The only way you can be honest is to say things that some people will disagree with. And occasionally saying things that might not be politically "wise."

The media and the elite have gotten politicians to be so timid that everything they say has to be focus-group tested...I'd rather see politicianbs who speak their mind, and occasionally make "gaffes" than ones who say nothing.

[gulliver]

34. I would too.

I would rather politicians could just speak their mind all of the time. Unfortunately for us all, the political world won't sustain that model of honesty. A candidates words are the basis of a coalition of independant people. Unstable words, unstable coalition.

[DemLikr]

36. Please name one single human being who is not "occasionally foolish"

I repeat: Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, Jesus Christ, etc. would NEVER be elected in today's politica/media climate.

We have gone mad with unrealistic demands on candidates.

And I believe much of it is individuals in the press and public projecting their own emotional/psychic "issues" onto the candidates. They attack the smallest indication of the traits they so hate in themselves.

[gulliver]

41. "We have gone mad with unrealistic demands on candidates."

That's right. We have.

Kerry had a good line on it. Something like, "if voters think that a $1,000 contribution from some anonymous someone will sway my voting, that just betrays a ridiculous cynicism about how things work..."

It's not just cynicism. It is madness. That is why we need a uniter more than ever, and that uniter can't be playing with matches all of the time.

[DemLikr]

50. BUT Kerry had Botox, ergo: "He is uncomfortable in his own skin!"

The media say so.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[DrFunkenstein]

23. Is There A Difference Between Blunt And Honest?

I can point out many examples of Dean's dishonesty, as I have in the past, but what would be the point?

Personally, I think there is a difference between "straight talk" (which is a rhetorical style) and honesty.

[w4rma]

43. Yes. It's the difference between getting regular folks to understand

and keeping that knowledge among the "elite", so to speak. Sort of why churches used to use Latin in their services.

Why isn't the Democratic Party doing as well as it used to among the lower-class? This is one of those reasons.

[xultar]

24. No, he's not too honest but he needs to work on his delivery. n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

27. Why doesn't he open his records, release his energy task force records

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/politics/7586638.htm

Dean Vermont Energy Group Met in Private

WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential contender Howard Dean has demanded release of secret deliberations of Vice President Dick Cheney's energy task force. But as Vermont governor, Dean had an energy task force that met in secret and angered state lawmakers.
Dean's group held one public hearing and after-the-fact volunteered the names of industry executives and liberal advocates it consulted in private, but the Vermont governor refused to open the task force's closed-door deliberations.

In 1999, Dean offered the same argument the Bush administration uses today for keeping deliberations of a policy task force secret. "The governor needs to receive advice from time to time in closed session. As every person in government knows, sometimes you get more open discussion when it's not public," Dean was quoted as saying.

-snip-

An expert in political rhetoric said it was risky for Dean to attack Bush and Cheney on an issue where he was vulnerable."In general, what is good for the vice president should be good for the governor. A candidate who attacks on grounds he is vulnerable is foolish," said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, a University of Pennsylvania professor who helps run a Web site that compares presidential candidates' rhetoric to the facts.

-snip-

The parallels between the Cheney and Dean task forces are many.
Both declined to open their deliberations, even under pressure from legislators. Both received input from the energy industry in private meetings, and released the names of task force members publicly.
Many state legislators, including Dean's fellow Democrats, were angered that the task force met secretly. "It taints the whole report," Democratic state Rep. Al Stevens told AP in 1999.

[nomaco-10]

28. Possibly.....no, I take that back....

Probably. Since your question seems to isolate US politics, I assume you are referring to his electability outside the US. Howard Dean is hands down the choice of many European countries as I've found when perusing western European message boards. The Europeans, especially in the UK are very interested in US politics and choose Dean hands down over the other candidates. The English in particular are amazing in that they follow American politics more closely than most Americans I know. Politics can be very interesting that way, very interesting indeed.

[Nashyra]

35. I think Dean has provided an avenue for dialouge

I like him more than Kerry. My first choice is obvisously Clark and I admit I did not think that Dean had the electability factor, but after seeing Kerry so much in the spotlite I think Dean has a better electability, he has the potential to bring out the voters expecially apathetic voters. I still want Clark but would prefer Dean over Kerry. Kerry appears to be business as usual and I think many moderates and swing voters will either not vote or just stick with the status quo especially because he will be painted as a liberal.

[zulchzulu]

33. "Dean" and "honest" in the same sentence! Wow!

[DemLikr]

38. Facts? Evidence? Examples?

How "honest" are you in your daily life?
Are you perfect?
Could you stand up to one-tenth of the scrutiny these candidates are expected to tolerate?
What are YOUR sketletons?

America uses elections as projection therapy. We mock in the candidates that which we suspect in ourselves. It's simple and classic and pathetic as a means of running a country.

[MaggieSwanson]

58. Here's a few about the war...

Sept. 23, 2002, DEAN -- Might Endorse Pre-Emptive Strike
Dean gives a waffling endorsement of President Bush's pre-emptive war:
"Pre-emption is not off the table, but the moral high ground does matter," he says, as quoted in the Iowa City Press-Citizen. The paper reports that Dean "also said he would endorse a pre-emptive strike against Iraq if it can be proven that Saddam Hussein has access to weapons of mass destruction and the means to discharge them."


February 19, 2003 DEAN -- Unilateral Action Is...Unavoidable Choice
Salon's Jake Tapper summarizes Dean's oft-repeated position on attacking Iraq: "Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

[w4rma]

39. Maybe. The put your head back into the sand candidate is currently winning

the nomination.

[maxr4clark]

42. No, he isn't level-headed enough for the US

Dean has a long history of overreacting. After the 9/11 attack, he said we needed to eradicate all terrorists, that this was the only way. He had a mild overreaction in Iowa. He has since overreacted by distancing himself from Trippi, who got him where he is.

A level-headed person avoids overreactions like this. Dean has made the strongest case yet against nominating him, and he will continue to do so; the problem is his overreactive personality.

[LWolf]

45. He's not honest.

He has engaged in plenty of spin and misrepresentation. IMO, it is more deliberate misrepresentation than outright "lies." But still...

[sandnsea]

46. He's austentatious

But whether what he says is true or not is a whole other story. Cheney berated CIA operatives? We don't know that. ALL children in Vermont are covered by health insurance? No. HE made health care available all by himself? No. His health plan is solvent? No. Al qaeda wasn't in Iraq? Maybe not, but other terrorist groups were there. You can't have social programs without repealing all the tax cuts? No, Bill Clinton managed it back in the early 90's. He doesn't want tax cuts, he wants "tax fairness"???

Spending $32 million was a gamble that he lost???

Whatever. I don't think so.

[blm]

47. Dean lied. He said Kerry was "on the take"

from special interests yet Kerry has NEVER accepted special interest pac money or corporate pac money in any of his campaigns.

Dean deceptively lumped together all of Kerry's INDIVIDUAL donations by profession and their workplace over an 18 year period to come up with those figures.

That formula could make Dennis Kucinich appear to be "on the take" fer chrissakes.

Dean want to formulate HIS donations over the last 18 years the same way?

[anti-NAFTA]

51. It's that the American people are too ignorant for Dean.

There's this conception in many middle and working class Americans' that they are going to be rich some day when in fact there is less social mobility in the US than in the UK. When Americans realize that the shit they're in isn't going to miraculously disappear, then we'll have real change.

[arewethereyet]

52. sure its real unless it becomes a liability like his opinion on taxes

and the war among others.

Its impossible to be too honest in the US.

[Ugnmoose]

53. He is the antichrist

The fascist corporatists who control this country are deathly afraid of him. The reason is that he is only accountable to us - the people.
When the people rise up and express their will - fascists run.

[cryofan]

54. You are talking about the fact that Dean is saying ......

...that Americans cannot have services unless they pay for them. Fine, but what about the fact that rich PEOPLE and UPPER INCOME earner used to have higher tax rates as well. What about increasing the tax rates on THOSE people as opposed to increasing the tax rates on middle class types. Of course we can see from Dean's history in Vermont that he thought rich people and upper income earners like doctors and lawyers should not have to pay much more than middle income earners.

[RichM]

55. Yes. To a society built on lies, anyone who speaks any truth is a danger.

Dean doesn't speak the whole the truth, nor is he even the candidate who speaks the most truth. But he speaks enough of it to be dangerous, & therefore had to be brought down.

The structure of American society positively requires constantly reiterated lies from the front men at the top. All this bullshit about "freedom and democracy" is just a clever device to secure the masses' docile assent to being neverendingly fleeced by a small group of oligarchs. Dean is on to some of this, & some of the issues he raises might well lead to greater awareness of the horrible truth about America. So he is surely seen by the oligarchs as someone they need to discredit & destroy.

[teach1st]

56. Thanks for all of the comments...

After much reading today, I've narrowed down my choice to two. No matter what, though, I'm ABB and I'll support the Democratic nominee. I have always registered as an Independent, but relieving Bush of duty is too important.

Actually, Kucinich matches up with my views more than any other candidate, but I don't think he's got the votes.

More realistically at this date, I've narrowed my pick to Clark or Dean. Personally, I'm not fond of politicians, hence my question about Dean's honesty. Clark and Dean (and Kucinich and Sharpton) seem to me the more authentic folks in the current field. Nobody is going to be perfect, of course.

Of course, a lot could happen between now and my Florida primary.

Again, thanks for the comments.

[milkyway]

57. Yes. Harry Truman could not get elected today. nt