Dean just accepted Kerry's challenge to one on one debate (MTP)

[Skip Intro]

Will Kerry, who made the challenge on 1/11/04 on MTP, accept Dean's acceptance?

Bring it on!

:toast:

[joshcryer]

1. Booyah.

That'll be interesting.

[vi5]

2. This is a dumb, dumb, dumb idea....

Dumb to make the offer......Dumb to accept it.

This is not a 2 man race, so for these two to let their idiotic squabbling get in the way of the bigger picture will do the party and both of their campaigns not a goddamned bit of good and in fact will do nothing but harm them both.

I get more and more depressed each day about the never ending flow of BS. This is going to be one of the most important elections in recent history and all these two otherwise great men can do is squabble amongst each other, fan the flames of discontent among their supporters, and call each other petty names.

Honestly, with all of this crap, sometimes I think we deserve to lose.

[bicentennial_baby]

4. I'm inclined to agree

Lame...

[MaineDem]

6. I tend to agree, too

Didn't Dean make the request first? I still don't think it's smart to alienate the other candidates.

I wouldn't have advised this...but no one asked. :)

[chocolateeater]

57. No Dean did not make the request first.

Kerry made it first last fall on Face the Nation and then as it says in the post on 1-11-04.

[jfxgillis]

8. You may be correct on everything you say, but it's not dumb

And I am I the only person who seems to be acquainted with Game Theory?

This is the best move for Dean.

It's the best move for Kerry.

It has no effect on Lieberman, Sharpton and Kucinich

It's annoying but not especially bad for Clark

And it's a brutal injury to Edwards.

THEREFORE, again, strictly according to game theory, what would you expect to happen next?

[leyton]

70. I think you're right.

It automatically makes voters assume that either Kerry or Dean will be the nominee and that noone else has a chance. And if Kerry and Dean each think that they can outdebate one another, then they would both perceive it as a good move.

[joshcryer]

10. This is what it's all about, though.

Don't you see? It's about media attention. It's about the spotlight, it's about all that. Dean is just exploiting the situation. If Kerry doesn't accept, he could look like a coward, if he does accept, Dean gets free air time. It's a brilliant move. This is what you have to do this day and age when real policies and issues aren't allowed to be talked about.

And you're wrong when you say it's not a two man race, it's a "one man race" going on what a very large number of posters here say (I can list their names here, I'm sure it would wind up in the dozens easily).

Prediction: Kerry will deny Dean's acceptance on the grounds that he's nobody now or whatever, and that will hurt him.

[NashVegas]

12. It's Not Kerry's to Accept

He's the one who made the offer.

[joshcryer]

16. He still has to make an effort to go ahead with it.

If he doesn't, it'll hurt him. Remember, a lot has changed since he did it. Dean was supposedly the front runner and he wanted free air time. Now let's see if he'll give it to Dean. :D

[janx]

81. Right. It's not about acceptance. It's about whether or not

Kerry will back out.

[jfxgillis]

21. Game theory would suggest that Kerry accepts.

So I take it we have a bet, one donut.

Now, on your other point--WRONG. The single best Presidential-candidate debate I've seen in 20 years was the Gerry Brown/Bill Clinton sitdown with Phil Donahue at an approximately analagous stage in the process.

It's exactly when a race gets to this level that issues can really get discussed substantively. Up to now it's been too diffuse, afterwards it'll be too narrowly ad-focused.

Besides, as I mentioned up the thread somewhere, if Edwards does well Tuesday, they'll make it threeway or Edwards will break it up somehow.

[colonel odis]

3. i agree. bad idea.

while two candidates the corporate press brands "northeastern liberals" are in a catfight, edwards is going to be out campaigning. i think a debate like that will do more to make kerry and dean appear similar, leaving a void for edwards or clark to fill.

[jfxgillis]

14. I doubt that

Seems like I have a lot more faith in your guys intelligence than you do!!

Put it this way: If Edwards surprises on the upside this Tuesday, either this two-way will become a three-way ot it'll be a zer-way, if Edwards is smart and I believe he is.

[colonel odis]

77. which one's my guy?

and what did i say to imply i don't have much faith in his intelligence?

[DrFunkenstein]

5. I See That Dean Refused Earlier Based On Principle

Kinda like he signed the pledge to public financing based on principle.

I like a man that stands by their principles.

[retyred]

50. Desperation is dean

Like a snowball rolling down a Vermont ski slope, these are the days of dean's life.

liberal Centrist
" Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." – Groucho Marx

[ChrisNYC]

7. Let's hope Kerry accepts

Might be the last chance to avoid a November disaster.

[justsam]

9. I like Dean

and some of his ideas, but he should face the facts-- he blew his career in Iowa.I should say the media blew his career by playing his screaming 997 times,could have used the time to push for an independent investigation into our security and who was the blame for the invasion of Iraq..why is Haliburton screwing the tax payers and getting away with it,?ect--on and on

[Lobo_13]

79. you'll excuse me

if myself and other Dean supporters don't roll over and allow the coronation of Kerry without a fight?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. They Should Have A Tournament Like In Boxing

Since Dean is now among the s-e-c-o-n-d t-i-er candidates he should have one one on one debates with Liebermsn, Edwards, Kucinich, Sharpton, and Clark with the eventual winner going on to debate Kerry....


That's fair....

[Skip Intro]

13. It was Kerry's idea

I'm sure Kerry wouldn't take a pro position, only to change it to an anti position. Just look at his clear, unambiguous statements on bush's Iraq invasion.

:D

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Don't You Think The Debate Should Be Between

Edwards and Kerry since either one of then will be the eventual nominee?

[joshcryer]

17. OPINION IS FACT

WAR IS PEACE
UP IS DOWN

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Just Bookmark My Post

and reread it when John Edwards or John Kerry are making their acceptance speechs in August...


It's over....

[joshcryer]

22. No thanks.

If I started bookmarking arrogant posts like that which spew drivel as if it's factual, then I would wind up with hundreds of bookmarks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. I Didn't Know Opinions Are Ipso Facto Arrogant....

If I was to say I was the most prescient poster on DU I would be arrogant....

I'm just looking at a set of facts and making a conclusion that emanates from that set of facts...


Or to use a well worn colloqialism "stick a fork in him because he's done."

[joshcryer]

34. Arrogance:

Main Entry: ar·ro·gance
Pronunciation: 'ar-&-g&n(t)s
Function: noun
: a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims

[Dark Star]

71. I like your style! n/t

[Mass_Liberal]

30. yea sure

two small, whitebread states, neither of them representing ethnic makeups of the dem. party, should decide that it is over. I disagree. I think that it will be decided after, Calif. and New York.

[Skip Intro]

20. I think writing a history that has yet to occur is a risky endeavor

:D

[jfxgillis]

26. Game theory, sir, game theory!!

That's exactly why Kerry would want the guy in solid third (Edwards) excluded from an encounter with a guy in weak second (Dean).

There are also implications for November is this little manuever, but that's another story......

[Kahuna]

46. Um, excuse me. Edwards has yet to WIN a primary...

So how do you determine that his chance of becoming the nominee is as good as anyone else?

[colonel odis]

78. well, in 1992 harkin won iowa and tsongas n. hampshire

that's how i determine it.

[seaglass]

24. Look at Dean's clear unambiguous statement about a

one-on-one debate with Kerry..

Dean rejects 1-on-1 debate with Kerry
By Jill Lawrence, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — John Kerry challenged Howard Dean to a one-on-one debate Sunday, becoming the latest Democratic presidential candidate to cast the campaign as a two-man race: Dean vs. me. Dean called the idea a gimmick and said it would be unfair to the other contenders.

snip...

Furthermore, Trippi said, when Dean was "an asterisk" in the polls, he insisted that everybody be included in debates. If Dean were to accept Kerry's offer, he predicted, Kerry would probably accuse him of flip-flopping.

It's only a two-man race in Dean's mind.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2003-09-14-dean-kerry_x.htm

[DrFunkenstein]

25. I'm Sure Dean Wouldn't Flip-Flop For Expediency

Oh, wait. He already has. Again.

-------------------

As aides pulled him inside, Dean was asked whether he was surprised that rival John Kerry did not criticize him in Thursday's debate.

"I wish he'd say to my face what he says behind my back," Dean said before disappearing behind the door.

Kerry had obviously gotten under his skin.

"I just wish he had given me a chance to respond to all that stuff - the zero experience on foreign affairs, the NRA stuff, the tax cut stuff," Dean said.

"I would have liked to have responded to that in person," Dean said, relishing the thought of getting mouthy with Kerry.

http://www.news8.net/news/stories/0903/101470.html

[Skip Intro]

32. LOL - Will Kerry change the subject to Dean when bush asks him to clarify

his position on the invasion?

Why is it that when faced with Kerry's own lack of clarity, the defense always seems to be to change the subject to Dean? Kerry's not going to be able to change the subject to Dean if he's the nominee and bush asks him about his ambiguity on the invasion issue.

:D

[seaglass]

36. Um, this thread is about Dean accepting Kerry's

challenge, so we shouldn't discuss Dean's original position on a one-on-one debate?

Oh I get it, one rule for Dean another rule for everyone else.

[joshcryer]

40. Oh, we should, but it's not flip flopping like the IWR was.

Consider the full picture here, Dean can change his mind about something like this a lot easier than someone can change their mind about going to war. In the former situation it's personal, in the latter, it concerns the whole population of the US. That's how Dean will probably frame it.

[Skip Intro]

45. *sigh*

:eyes:

I didn't say Dean's position wasn't relevant to this thread, but you are out of context here.

I replied to another post in this thread that Kerry was ambiguous on the Iraq invasion. You replied - to that particular post, that Dean had changed positions on the debate. Be that as it may, your reply to Kerry's ambiguity was not to defend his pro/anti invasion position(s?), but to bring up Dean. I merely noted that Kerry wouldn't be able to do that in a debate with the moron.

Same rules for everyone. (Just ask Dianne Sawyer).

[seaglass]

49. Oh, was this thread about the IWR vote?

I missed it.

[Skip Intro]

55. The post you replied to was

:D

[DrFunkenstein]

42. Whats Ambiguous About Broken Promises?

Kerry will only have IWR problems in the nomination process. Kerry is completely geared for the general election. All Kerry has to say is that Iraq was the right thing done the wrong way. Saddam needed to be held accountable, Bush (and Powell and the Joint Chiefs of Staff) promised to do it right, and Bush broke that promise.

Hammering Bush for not being a man of his word goes right to core of Bush's appeal and tears it to pieces.

[joshcryer]

47. Actually the policy flip flop is deeper than that.

That is, Kerry wasn't for Iraq 1991, but Kerry was for Iraq 2003. See how it looks? Explain that, please.

[Kahuna]

52. Right. Dr. Funk's explanation for the 02 vote sounds..

credible. But when you contrast it with his '91 vote, it's problematic.

[joshcryer]

54. I know!

It's horrible, that's precisely what Bush will do. And it'll get played up so damn badly... crap... just wait and see. He better be thinking of a good response for that.

[Skip Intro]

53. Don't we deserve to know Kerry's position?

You talk about this as if honesty and integrity aren't factors at all. What kind of President do you want?

Kerry must belive one of the following:

- "Invading Iraq was wrong"

or

- "Invading Iraq was right"

Which is it?

I'm a Democrat but I'm also an American. Kerry works for me the same as bush does. I don't care about the political considerations, I want to know where he stands on the issue. Don't think about which position will play better - tell me what you believe.

[DrFunkenstein]

69. Um, Can We Say "False Dilemma"?

You must choose between absurdly simplistic choice A or absurdly simplistic choice B. No C, D, E, F....

I think the binary logic of many supporters of anti-war candidates tends to just be the flip side of Bush's black-and-white world view.

I agree with Kerry: Saddam should have been held accountable and disarmed, but it should have done legitimately. If it was done right we could have easily gotten international consent.

Kerry's thinking in 1991 was the same as it was in 1997 and in 2002, only within different contexts. He was for keeping Saddam in check under U.N. guidelines, but doing so with international support and earning the consent of the American people.

Kerry wasn't "against" the war in 1991 - as his statements at the time made very clear. Kerry wasn't "for" the invasion in 2002 - as his statements at the time made very clear. Kerry wasn't "against" supporting our troops with the $87 million funds - as his statements at the time made very clear.

It is intellectually dishonest to remove these votes from their larger contexts, and force them into a unproductive either/or logic. Leave that to the GOP smear teams, which Kerry is already handling with forceful grace.

[Skip Intro]

73. Uh, thanks for clearing that up

I think the American people will appreciate that kind of straight talk.

Dean, Kucinich, CMB, Sharpton, and Clark have said the "preemptive" invasion was wrong. Lieberman said it was right. Period. Yet it is "intellectually dishonest" to ask the same clarity from Kerry?

Valiant effort tho, Dr. Funk.

:D

(btw, how does one disarm someone who is not armed?)

[joshcryer]

38. Oh man, that's the perfect setup.

It's not flip flopping when you say that your opinion or mood has changed, he can cite that article easily and say that it disappointed him that he wasn't allowed to respond to Kerry adequately and that's the reason he's all fora one-on-one debate.

Oh man, Kerry better watch it, haha.

[kstewart33]

18. Not well advised for Kerry

He's on the verge of winning the nomination, and Dean is now desperate for something to turn things around. Kerry should stay the course, get the win, and not give Dean an opportunity to slow his momentum.

There's a reason that Dean refused Kerry's challenge--frontrunners don't want to debate because it's too risky. They're driving the bus.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. In 2000 Gore Challenged Bradley To A Series Of Debates When

Bradley appeared a strong challenger...


As soon as the challenge whithered , Gore ignored his challenge...


It's not in the interest of front runners to debate....

[zulchzulu]

28. Dean is a second-tier candidate...he's irrelevant

If Dean wants to debate Lieberman or Kucinich or LaRouche, he should go for that.

Until Dean's poll numbers come out of single digits in most polls, that's where he's in position. He's won nothing and will probably win nothing.

[bicentennial_baby]

29. Why don't they just compare dick size?

Fucking men... :puke:

I swear, after this election, I am DONE with politics.

[maddezmom]

35. agree...

thanks for the chuckle :) Or they could duke it out on the slopes. Who ever gets to the bottom the fastest wins.

[Lefta Dissenter]

43. hahahaha,

I'm hoping for arm wrestling to settle it! :D

[bicentennial_baby]

51. "Over the Top"

Ever see that Sylvester Stallone arm-wrestling movie? :P

[diamondsoul]

31. So when will he accept Kucinich's?-

Nevermind, I already know he won't. It would blow his candidacy all to hell to grant Kucinich enough of a chance to make his positions heard.

Sorry, no offense to those of you who support him intended, and yes I mean that, but his lack of willingness to challenge Kucinich head to head tells me something about his confidence in his positions. NONE of them seem willing to take Kucinich on one-on-one.

[KaraokeKarlton]

33. Dean is pissed about Kerry's hypocrisy on Special Interests

I saw him being interviewed on his tour bus about Kerry's fundraising. The funny thing is this...all the talk about Dean being angry in this speech or that speech, well, he wasn't angry at all. NOW he is. That's why he accepted Kerry's one on one debate invitation. Dean is ready to chew Kerry a new asshole over this. I'm sure he's getting pissed over the robocalls and push polling Kerry is using against him as well. If Kerry accepts this, Dean is going to run him over like a turbo powered steam roller. If Kerry doesn't accept, he looks like a coward. Either way, whatever Kerry does is going to severely hurt his campaign.

[Kahuna]

37. Kerry to Dean: Talk to the hand.

:D

[joshcryer]

41. Oh man I hope so.

:D

[retyred]

39. Maybe dean could debate his tax plan

Now that would be interesting!


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[KaraokeKarlton]

44. Dean is the only one who is telling the truth about taxes

The others who are promising to keep the middle class tax cuts are also promising free college, universal health care, jobs, balancing the budget, funding education, etc. The fact of the matter is this:
They can't afford to do these things, keep the cuts AND balance the budget. It just can't be done, period. If the tax cuts are kept there will be none of the stuff they are promising and no balanced budget. The tax cuts are irresponsible and need to be repealed. Period. All of them.

[retyred]

58. Tax hikes for everyone did wonders for Perot

If dean thought he was right, why the "Yet to be released new and improved version"?

I was so disappointed to hear dean wasn't going to stick with his original plan of "How to lose an election on one issue alone"


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[KaraokeKarlton]

59. He is sticking to it

But he's also forming a tax reform plan to putinto place once the bedget gets straightened out. First things first...it's about prioritizing, which Dean is great at doing.

[joshcryer]

60. It's scary though. He has balls. Major balls. Remember Mondale?

Mondale said during debates, "Mr. Reagan will raise taxes, and so will I. He won't tell you. I just did."

He was honest.

He was right.

But look where it got him.

[lurk_no_more]

64. That's odd

I read he was going to release a "NEW" tax plan Feb 3rd, if he still plans to roll back all the cuts, I would be very interested (amused) in seeing how this will play to his numbers.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Clark Can WIN]

48. Go ahead and shred each other

So that people can see that Clark is what we really need to fix this mess. Politicians have been doing a great job of ripping each other apart, distorting their own and each others records and generally mucking everythng up. Enough already.

It's like having a roofing crew that leaves you with a leaky roof and you just keep hiring them back to leave you in the same condition. Along one day comes a strapping young man a who offers to fix it for you. He's never done it for a living but he's been working on things like that all his life and done it well and with honor. He's smart as hell and genuinely wants to help you and your family. Gimme the new guy.

[BootinUp]

56. The reason it is lame is because its so hypocritical

The man has no shame. Sorry to say it.

[lurk_no_more]

61. Sounds like another “YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!” moment to me!

Why do I picture the movie "Scanners" when I picture dean trying to one on one Kerry?


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Skip Intro]

62. I hope so!

But I don't think Dean would be so hard on Kerry that JK's head would explode.
(ewwww - flying botox)

:D

[ibegurpard]

63. Dean doesn't seriously think he should be able to debate Kerry

one-one-one. He just wants to stick it to Kerry for his hypocrisy when Kerry delivers the "no thanks" after harping for a one-on-one debate with Dean for months.

[joshcryer]

65. I think so too, I'm betting he's expecting a Kerry no show.

But I'm sure that he could handle Kerry were it to happen.

[Nashyra]

66. Makes Clark and Edwards look good.

It would be a mistake for Kerry to do it because it is very dangerous but it also makes him look bad for putting it out there and then saying no.

[creativelcro]

75. Dean would trash Kerry in a debate.

Kerry does not handle details and realistic estimates well. He's stuck in his political BS world...

[dansolo]

74. Did you catch Dean's parting comment?

He rhetorically asked if Kerry would appear to debate now that he was the frontrunner.

[CabalBuster]

76. Dean would pulverize Kerry...Kerry is just too monotonous a speaker

Kerry gives painfully long-winded and convoluted responses to any direct questions he faces. Dean is a quick puncher and a straight shooter. By the time Kerry finishes answering the first question, he's already taken 3-4 blows from Dean. Kerry needs to make concise and precise responses to questions--but he's been in congress and Washington for too long and bad habits die hard.

I think Kerry's offer to Dean was pure bravado and that he won't accept, he's too afraid of a mano a mano with Dean. During a one on one it would be obvious to the world that he cannot be candid with his answers; after all it is not Kerry's nature to be genuine and that's Dean strong area. Dean is not a fake, even his wrinkles are out there for all to see.

[mzmolly]

67. Wow, that would be great!

:toast:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

68. Let's do the Time Warp again!

lol

[Dark Star]

72. I'll bring the popcorn!

This one could go on Comedy Central with Jon Stewart as moderator.

I love it.

[janx]

80. How long will it take to schedule the debate?

The only thing I want to know now is WHEN.

[BruinAlum]

82. Why should Kerry debate Dean one on one?

Dean scoffed at the idea when it was assumed he was the anointed front runner. Now that he's fallen on his face he wants do-overs? ROTFL! Kerry should just ignore him. Dean isn't even running ads in the 7 states that have primaries on Tuesday.

I actually like Dean, believe it or not, but I am really disappointed at his performance the last few weeks and the fact that his campaign squandered most of his war chest in 2 states barely before the game has begun, and then fired his manager. Serious mistakes early on. Poor organization.

Kerry is doing well because he is resonating with the people and they like what they see. They are voting for him. End of story.

And he's a polished debater too. I don't think a one on one debate would help Dean anyway.

[janx]

83. He didn't scoff at the idea. He just thought that with so many

candidates, it might not be the fair thing to do at the time.

The race has tightened a bit. Now Russert has provided a venue and directly asked him to do it. He said yes.

We'll now see if Kerry really means what he says. And I hope it's a real debate and not just another "forum." I'd like to see some candidates speak to eachother as opposed to speaking to some glorified media types.