Friends, Revolutionaries, Radicals, Progressives: Take a Chance On Kerry

[WiseMen]

This is my appeal to all my racidal, progressive, revolutionary friends: Take a chance on Kerry.

Don’t expect him to tell you what you want to hear. The more specifics any candidate gets into the more the Repubs will be able to twist his words into an attack. But look at his life and record and figure whether he is a good bet.

I feel real strong that John Kerry is the best stealth candidate we can hope for to possibly win the Presidency.

Unlike Governor Dean who became perceived as a “too liberal” though he really is a moderate, John Kerry is still perceived by most to be a moderate even though he has a pristinely progressive record.

Now what do we want:

A moderate who is perceived as a radical and therefore would likely loose?
Or
A radical who is perceived as a moderate and therefore would likely win?

I think we can make a bet Kerry is really the latter. Here is why:

1. This is the guy who spent 4 years in the Military, 24/7, in the mess hall, on the ship deck, in the jungle and swamps with brothers who for the most part were draftees who didn’t have the connections to get at ticket out of the draft. To a man they testify to Kerry’s humanity, camaraderie and soul. Remember, Kerry was a volunteer, enlisting before the draft because it wasn’t fair for poor kids to serve and die while rich kids skipped service.

2. This is the guy who protested the war, at a time when protesters were labeled communists, hippies and dope-heads. He rode the buses, slept on the ground, went to jail, testified against war atrocities – basically did things that are likely to f*up your life and carrier, unless you can overthrow the establishment.

3. This is the Senator who spent much of his Senate career making peace with our former enemies in south-east Asia and making war against Reagan-Bush covert operations in Central America and secret involvement in the Iran/Iraq war.

4. This is the Senator who supported the Sandinistas in Nicaragua and helped expose and take out of power Marcos in the Phillipines, Noriega in Panama and Suharto in Indonesia.

5. This is the Senator who exposed CIA corruption and drug connections and, to the chagrin of Repubs and Dems alike, has managed to find quite a few big-budget military systems that he doesn’t like.

6. This is the Senator who is notorious for controversial ideas and proposals that rarely do more than annoy his fellow senators, but has still managed to vote so consistently to support the environment and the poor that he maintained one of the strongest progressive voting records in the senate.


Now don’t get me wrong. John Kerry is no Dennis Kucinich. It should be pretty clear that Kerry is not going to be pigeon-holed. He takes market-based positions when his colleagues want him to support regulation. He suggests social innovations when his colleagues want orthodoxy.

But, for radical, revolutionaries, progressives and all of us who what to take back out country from the barbarians in Washington, John Kerry may be our best bet.

[IndianaGreen]

1. In the spirit of reconciliation, WiseMen

I won't criticize Mister Kerry in this thread.

[WiseMen]

4. Spirit shared. Some of us on this side have really worked hard as well

For a goal which I hope we can all believe in eventually.

[IndianaGreen]

6. We can all agree that another Bush term would be a disaster

but please spare us the ABB loyalty oaths, I personally find those childish and offensive.

Thank you!

[Sensitivity]

126. Kerry needs to reach-out to Dean instead of just ignore him

[wtmusic]

2. Don't expect him to tell you

why he voted for the war...

Don't care who would likely win. I'll just vote my conscience and sleep well at night.

[corporatewhore]

18. he reminds me of a sad aging former activist

resting his liberal laurels on battles in the past which makes it even worse because its like steves earls amerikan version 6.0 voting on issues the way he is expected to and never really rocking the boat. look at him then and look it now its like a slap in the face to me because hes touting how he protested and fought for soliders who were used as pawns in an unjust war but now all he can give is talk

[Melinda]

3. Ummmmm, no. Not gonna happen. Here's a few reasons why:

[corporatewhore]

9. It aint stopping in all fairness dean will let it continue

my dad has been over there and told me iraqis clearly dont want us there they are going to resist (i mean we are forgein invaders) as long we are there and some of our guys are psychos w/a gun and uniform

[WiseMen]

29. We are all angry at it.

[corporatewhore]

10. I cried the night the bombs dropped it is just sick what america did

America has some major bigtime karmic debts

[Sensitivity]

12. I think a collective SCREAM went up that night. But the Media wasn't

recording that. I wish it was, and that was what was played
over and over and over around the world. A scream against American
arrogance and ignorance.

[Raya]

17. There a lot of us in the Kerry Camp that felt exactly the same, but

we won't take the criminals to task unless we can take back the
government.

[Melinda]

21. It's too late.

Kerry has the blood of innocents on his hands.

[WiseMen]

22. So do we all. Only by taking our stand can we try to redeem our guilt

[corporatewhore]

28. how is voting for kerry taking a stand?

[funky_bug]

42. No blood here

I didn't support it, I didn't vote for it, and I didn't sign my name to Bush the Lesser's blank check. That blood is not on my hands... there are days, when if it wasn't so damned cold in Canada, that I've considered moving. The shame of being under Bush's flag may follow me, but it ain't my war and it ain't my blood. I may be guilty by proxy, but I am not going to accept the blame.

[Melinda]

60. There is no blood on *MY* hands

I vehemently worked by and through calling, faxing, writing letters to every single democratic Senator (Senator Byrd was gracious), personally going to Max Cleland's office, and participating in United for Peace and Justice activities (including protests) against the IWR and the war itself. My heart is broken, but my conscience is clear - there is no blood on MY hands.

[WiseMen]

142. This is our country. Till we remove Bush we bear guilt

[Melinda]

150. *We*? Count me out of Corporate Whore voting. You ARE guilty.

So *You* remove Bush* - I'll not be voting for Kerry or anyone else who helped to pass the IWR. Kerry and Bush and those that support them are responsible for this; the guilt is YOURS:




Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

[Forkboy]

68. Speak for yourself

I feel no guilt for Kerry's actions.

[WiseMen]

123. Isn't is Beautiful how we can wash our hands of what our Country does.

[Melinda]

134. You will not ascribe YOUR guilt to me, sir.

I denounced and worked the Bush* march to war as detailed above. I am not responsible for your choices; your sins belong to you and others like you. So look again at the innocent little victims and see, by your own admission, what YOU helped this country to do:

[AntiCoup2K4]

130. And how do you take the criminals to task

...with a candidate backed by the very same criminals?

[WiseMen]

136. Kerry is the toughest critic. Walk softly and carry a big stick.

[zoeyfong]

147. How can kerry criticise when he supported the war? Makes me puke.

[Raya]

152. It's all about the Congress

[Raya]

116. Not supposed to say, but I have seen Kerry tears. He is not cold

and I think he has anguished over what Bush did in both
Afganistan and Iraq.

[funky_bug]

41. You got it, Melinda. Here's another reason...

From http://islamicart.com

"As Arabs and Muslims, we are entitled, as is the rest of the world, to record the new phase of history that began in April 2003 as the “second fall of Baghdad” rather than “the liberation of Iraq” ­ a term favored by the US media in an effort to influence the minds and conscience of the public and to give a moral dimension to an immoral and illegitimate war.

The looting and destruction in Baghdad of historical records narrating the development of civilization over 5,000 years is a disaster for humanity that is only equaled by the burning of books and the destruction of irrigation networks in Iraq by Hulago and his vengeful soldiers in 1258.

According to a group of international experts met in Paris, a few weeks after the invasion and occupation of Iraq, at the behest of UNESCO, in addition to the widely reported looting of the Baghdad Museum, the Iraqi National Library and Archives in Baghdad had also been looted and burned, as had the library of Islamic manuscripts attached to the Ministry of Al-Awqaf , destroying irreplaceable artifacts of Mesopotamian and Arab/Muslim civilizations.

This means that part of the development of the human intellect has been lost forever."

If you click on the link, you can read about the war without the Bush spin. This is no liberation. It's theft and destruction. Not only are we stealing their oil, we are destroying records of OUR history... 5000 years worth of records on greek theater, roman art, byzantine empire...

He'll get my vote, but it will be cast with a heavy heart if it comes to that.

[Raya]

121. Really not fair when I think about it.

[corporatewhore]

5. Kerry and revolutionary makes me laugh as hard as dean and revolutionary

kucinich isnt that radical either its just we are so to the right what could pass as moderate over the rest of the world is considered radical over here

[WiseMen]

7. This is America. The Real Revolution will not be televised or it will be

stopped.

[corporatewhore]

11. What i meant was its a sad day when kerry is considered revolutionaryor

radical or liberal for that matter NAFTA any one

[Sensitivity]

37. After Feb. all dems will have to take a chance of go back to our hole

[Capn Sunshine]

8. That is correct, sir!

Kerry
<remainder of post deleted by author in order to maintain posting priveledges>

[Melinda]

20. wrong spot, nothing to see here.

[Raya]

56. I laugh hard just at Dean the liberal

[WiseMen]

153. Not quite as hard I hope.

[Raya]

13. Wish Folk would see we have no choice. Kerry's really the strongest we got

[corporatewhore]

14. we have no choice according to who you ?ted koppel? also how could kerry

stand up to bush when rove shows he voted for IWR and still defends it how could he challenge bush on NAFTA and for god sakes he comes off as an aloof elitist wealthy NE asristocrat (much like bush)

[WiseMen]

24. Well, please run Kucinich against Bush. Good way to win GE you think?

[corporatewhore]

26. actually kucinich has beat repub incumbants freom OHIO not lib havens

like Mass.Kucinich has a record that can stand up to bushes He will attack bush on issues and mean ithe doesnt flip flop he also i think which is very important did not buy into the lie w did what does that say about him?
He also believe or not has some support from the other side (my own kucinich group has a few libertarians and an ex repug)he has the appeal for the old school conservatives who want less govt and dont like nafta
Gee and I dont see very many there is no way in hell i could vote for kucinich threads

[Raya]

33. I support DK, but he is running now. Just has to win. If he doesn't we

have to make our bets elsewhere.

[corporatewhore]

94. yep to a cannidate who doesnt support NAFTA/WTO/GATT

[Raya]

122. We need to stop the killing and the destruction of our country

[WiseMen]

70. If an "orthodox" liberal could win in Amercia, Nader would have already

[JVS]

77. There are alternatives to "orthodox" other than "spineless flip-flopper"

[IrateCitizen]

75. But this isn't the GE. This is the primary season.

I always thought that the purpose of the primary season and convention was twofold:
1. Decide upon our nominee based on who is able to collect a majority of delegates.
2. Develop the party platform.

After a whole TWO nomination contests, now you are telling me that I am supposed to drop my support of Dennis Kucinich -- a man whom I support not based on pure "electability" but because his message and vision are desperately needed both in the Democratic Party AND America -- simply because you, an anonymous poster on an internet forum, feel John Kerry is the best candidate?

I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than that. My support for Dennis is based on much more than popularity contests or media hype. If John Kerry gets the nomination, he will have my complete support. Until that time, so long as Dennis Kucinich is running, HE has my support.

I must object strenuously to the disingenious way in which you portray the primary process. You do yourself and the entire board a grave disservice by this mischaracterization.

Very poor show, sir.

[WiseMen]

141. It is called a campaign: putting forward your candidate as the best

[mikehiggins]

51. Didn't we just spend months hearing this about Dean?

There is nothing special about Kerry. He is just another run-of-the-mill opportunistic politician who wants to have "conversations" rather than make decisions.

He has spent his career as a legislator, never a leader.

The times do not call for a man who makes a virtue out of talking out of both sides of his mouth, never saying anything that he can't "nuance" into whatever meaning suits him at the moment.

If THAT is the best we can do, we are toast.

I will support him if he is nominated but not until then.

And if he is nominated I will always regret the loss of the chance to elect a real leader. SO it goes.

[Raya]

104. Where do you get your information from?

[WiseMen]

89. Kerry is A Unique Treasure of the Democratic Party. Wish Friends Here

would see that.

[CTLawGuy]

124. he is a broken shell of his honorable former self

and if we nominate him, what happens when another IWR comes up???? Will they listen to us if they know we wont do anything?

[zoeyfong]

148. Don't think so. There is no left-leaning but pro-war middle for him to

appeal to and pick up votes. You also are apparently assuming that kerry will get all dem votes, which is not going to happen. There are many on the left for whom war support is an absolute deal breaker.

[x-g.o.p.er]

15. Solid Post...Good Points

I like your post. Well reasoned and thought out. He has my vote because of his military service. And contrary to popular belief, he does what is morally right, IMHO.

[Sensitivity]

85. Yes, But I don't think we are ready for him yet. Try again in a month.

[ibegurpard]

16. Kerry's actions have not justified me taking that leap.

If he is the nominee when the gavel comes down at the convention then I will reconsider your words.

[Old and In the Way]

19. Totally right Wiseman!

I'm with you 100% on JK. And if anyone is going to change the direction this country is going in, it's John Kerry. Because John will lead. That's a gift few men have and if I were the Republican Party, I'd be nervous as hell.

Leadership and character, I know Kerry's got it.

[hilzoy]

64. How?

John Kerry has not led particularly well during the last 30 years or so. It's hard to think of a single thing he's led on in the last decade. What bothers me is not so much that he voted for the IWR, it's that he voted for it in order to protect his presidential aspirations. That's not leadership; it's just ambition.

And for those of you who accept his claim that he was duped, how exactly does that reinforce your confidence in his judgment? I mean, it's hard to get not one but TWO Gulf Wars so completely wrong.

[Raya]

67. No Evidence of that. Look at Iraq Senate Deliberations over past 5 years

Kerry has been consistent in his reasoned approach.

[Old and In the Way]

144. That is interesting isn't it?

He votes against DS1, but for DS2. WHy is that?

He was certainly right on his DS1 vote....we know what the real deal was there.

So why didn't he vote against the IWR?

His base would have supported it. In fact, he risked his political viability on that one vote alone. I'll bet he knew the entire evidence was BS, too.

So why did he, and most Democrats, vote for it?

Well, since I believe in LIHOP/MIHOP and we know that the anthrax attack was targeted at the Senate Democratic Leader (why not the Senate Republican Leader?), I think there the Democrats vote was not about political expediency, but political preservation of our democracy.

Let's assume Kerry and the Democrats vote their natural position, against this war. On straight party line, it might still pass, but the Dems would be in a strong position in 2002 and 2004 to take Bush on because the evidence (as Kerry probably knew) was bogas.

But, what if they smelled a really evil set-up (again, let's remember LIHOP/MIHOP and the Anthrax)? Now, if all Democrats vote against it, I believe we would have had another "event" that would have terorized this country. Why?

(1) It makes martial law a distinct possibility.
(2) The "event" gets blamed on the Iraq/AQ connection.
(3) It "proves" the Bush administration's case for war.
(4) It takes the Democrats out of the 2002 and 2004 elections - The phrase "Party of Terrorist Appeasers" is used to describe the Democratic Party in the corporate media.

The vote probably hurt the Democrats in the 2002 mid-terms. But by backing a resolution that conditioned the use of US military only if the UN inspections were not allowed to continue, Bush had no mandate from Congress to attack unilaterally and without proof that Iraq was not cooperating. Both conditions were broken by Bush and we now know that the IWR was based on distorted/fabricated intel. Bush alone chose the path to war and he committed crimes in lying to Congress.

Will Kerry or any other Senator admit to this? No. Was this part of the political calculus in signing on to the qualified IWR? I truly believe so.

DS1 was certainly easier for Bush1 to make a case for with SH's invasion, but Kerry balked because it was still bogus. Not this time, though...and the case was far less tenable. But the person selected pResident wanted to be a dictator and he had a corrupt Republican majority who weren't interested in investigating 9/11. I think this was a vote for democratic preservation and I can forgive our Congressional Democrats the Hobson's choice. In fact, they made the best choice, if one can understand the context under which this vote was put to them.

[Wells]

23. My best argument against Bush

Whichever dem gets the nod is better than Bush. I like Kerry, for not really enough reasons other than he seems modest, reserved like Gore, has a commanding presence, not much of a glad-hander, hard-sell/soft-sell smiling politician.

My best argument against Bush: I have family in Iraq. I believe their best chance to survive is for multinational forces to take over operations. Bring in the UN. Iraqi will Never accept US presence. A Bush administration will never, "no matter what they say", go for this.

I'm trying to act like a conservative. Nothing more need be said when making this argument, though the list of Bush's sins is long. I'm voting against his war planning. His leadership will lose the war on terrorism.

[zoeyfong]

25. There's nothing progressive about kerry's pro-war vote.

I would be more than happy to support kerry had it not been for his recent spineless, i dare say treasonous support of bush's pet war. Whatever courage he had in vietnam is clearly no longer with him. Not only did his war support demonstrate a lack of courage on his part, but it also demonstrated dangerously poor judgement. Whether he was truly "misled," or whether he knew the whole thing was a sham and went along for political expediency, either way, he has no business having his finger anywhere near the button. He also has no business being the symbol of the democratic party.

[asthmaticeog]

36. Hear, hear!

IWR, NAFTA, NCLB, Medicare, energy -- Kerry's been right in line with Bush's administration on every single issue we need to be bashing the GOP over it's collective pin-head with in the G.E. We can't fight Bush with someone who can so easily be painted as a Bush supporter. His votes in Congress speak volumes more than his stump speech ever can. I truly fear that we're getting set for an '84/'88 type humiliation with Kerry, and the stakes are so much higher now - if we get our asses handed to us this time, PNAC is validated and can go about its evil business without having to worry about Bush facing the voting public ever again.

edit: syntax

[Casablanca]

40. Well said. Insider politicians are the problem, Dem or Repub.

[Piperay]

27. I will

if Kerry gets the nomination he will have my full fledged support, no doubt about it. :thumbsup:

[jpgpenn]

30. Not a Chance!!

This is coming from a person how had Kerry as his number 2 candidate. Kerry has shown exactly what he is about. This guy will say and do ANYTHING for a vote. he sees no problem what so ever in smearing other Dem candidates but is the first to cry when he feels his true record is brought to the forefront.

Kerry IS NOT the man to lead this great country! We need a man with vision, character and integrity. Vote Gen. Wes Clark!

[ldoolin]

31. The problem is

...everything good about Kerry you mentioned in this post is from two or three decades ago. The Kerry of today is not the Kerry of the 1970s and 1980s.

Kerry can secure my enthusiastic support by renouncing his votes in favor of IWR, NAFTA, Patriot Act, NCLB, etc. and apologizing for them, and pledging to make their repeal a priority. I could also get enthusiastic about him if he were to stop wrapping himself in military imagery, get actively involved in veterans for peace type groups once again like he did in the 1970s, and reverse his platform planks on mandatory national service, expanding the military, expanding fatherland security, and requiring all colleges getting federal funding to have ROTC.

Kerry, are you reading this? Is anyone in there? Hello!

[JVS]

32. If kerry needs votes to get elected, he can get them from other people...

who supported the Bush administration the way he did.

[goobergunch]

34. What has Kerry done in the last 10 years?

I've been unable to find anything. :shrug:

[goobergunch]

No answer to my question I see (n/t)

[WiseMen]

93. Johnkerry.com Pushed Senate/White House to reassess its

global intelligence posture and approach to terrorism
(wrote the book The New War, pushed set up of Hart/Rudman commission
etc)

That in the security area. Check site for numerous amendments and
participation in bills.

[corporatewhore]

102. In the last ten years kerry has.....

Sold out america given our jobs to SLAVES via NAFTA/GATT/WTO
putt the Bill of Rights through the shredder via PATRIOT ACT
ANd given the Holy War for Iraqi Oil Liberation his stamp of approval

[ozone_man]

35. You have to earn that trust.

Kerry has not demonstrated anything, especially not in recent years that might earn the respect of "Revolutionaries, Radicals, Progressives". IWR, Patriot Act, and NCLB are recent critical test failures for JK I'm afraid.

[Iverson]

38. Spot on. Wishful thinking doesn't avail. (n/t)

n/t

[WiseMen]

96. How does the left gain political power in rw Americal? Think about it.

[ibegurpard]

135. By holding those that supposedly represent it accounable.

eom

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. That vote for the IWR was certainly "radical". Not.

"Remember, Kerry was a volunteer, enlisting before the draft because it wasn’t fair for poor kids to serve and die while rich kids skipped service."

Bull. Kerry volunteered because he thought the war was justified and right.

In 1965 I was in the marines and just about to get out. I was asked to extend my enlistment to go to Vietnam. I refused because I thought killing Vietnamese peasants so LBJ could show he was "anti-communist" was wrong.

I was one of those guys being called a communist and a traitor when Kerry was in Vietnam shooting Vietnamese. By the time he came back it was pretty safe to be against the war. I don't claim to be any sort of "hero" for what I did. It was just the right thing to do.
Something Kerry didn't do when he voted for the IWR.

[WiseMen]

44. I Never Said Kerry is "Radical:" I said we need to "take a chance"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. I took a chance on Clinton and got endless comprominses and sell outs.

And, watched to party lurch to the right in the name of "triangulation", which equals moving to the right to rob repugs of their issues.

What's that saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Kerry didn't fool me with his cowardly vote on the IWR.

[Raya]

59. Sorry Guy. But we have to get past the IWR. Obviously a disaster

[Forkboy]

69. No we dont have to get past it

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

81. Why do we have to "get past the IWR"?

Why should we? There's about 20,000 dead people in Iraq who aren't going to get past it.

[JVS]

82. Because Kerry need you to get passed it

Shitty reason, but there it is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

83. You're right about the reason.

It is a shitty reason. And, not nearly good enough to get me to vote for him.

[WiseMen]

91. Let's work for the future of the world. Bush is a clear and present danger

We have to end his reign.

[IrateCitizen]

97. Bush is an acute symptom, not the disease itself

See, WiseMen -- this is where your argument falls apart, time after time. You want to convince people to vote for John Kerry from one motivation above all others: FEAR.

Sure, getting Bush out in 2004 IS an important thing. But it's like stopping a runaway fever when confronted with a deadly illness. Sure, if you don't take care of the fever right away, it will result in death. But likewise, if you treat the fever yet ignore the greater disease immediately after the fever is gone, you will STILL die -- it just might take a little bit longer.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything in John Kerry that will radically change this national disease of militarism, consumerism and overwhelming hubris. Rather, as John Kerry has called for several times in his campaign speeches, it will be an attempt to return to the policies of the Clinton years.

In the end analysis, this approach results in little more than taking a car that is heading toward a cliff at 110 mph and slowing it down to a more reasonable 55 -- but still keeping the car pointed toward that cliff.

Like I have said numerous times before, there is only one candidate who is willing to "lay his healing hands on the soul of America." That candidate is Dennis Kucinich. It's just too bad that so much of America is so infected with the virus of jingoism and consumerism that they are unwilling or unable to see and accept Dennis's vision for what it truly is -- a revolutionary vision that can propel America and the world to an unprecedented era of cooperation and mutual respect.

I will vote for John Kerry if he wins the nomination, but I will also do so with no misconceptions about the hard work that will still need to be done in order to advance Dennis's progressive vision. If Kerry wins the presidency, the fever will be stopped -- but the disease will still remain and need to be dealt with.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

125. Very very well put. But how about incremental change potential?

To stop heading towards planetary destruction at 110mph you hafta get back down to 55mph.

And we all know what happens when you go to 0mph too abruptly. Ouch.

Maybe, just maybe the mixed bag that Kerry represents is just what is needed as an intermediary step to change this dysfuntional society.

OK, I'm being optomistic here because I just looked at more of Kerry's tarnished record and I'm coming to terms with what might happen when he wins.

But a democrat will win. Because Bush has lost. People will vote AGAINST him if not actually FOR his opponent. That's how we got Clinton.

[IrateCitizen]

128. Thanks for making my point

But a democrat will win. Because Bush has lost. People will vote AGAINST him if not actually FOR his opponent. That's how we got Clinton.

And we've seen, in the long run, how great that strategy has worked out. The RW currently controls all three branches of government, and the Democratic Party has been thrown into complete disarray, searching for its soul.

The problem is, that the establishment doesn't want to do ANYTHING more than slowing that car back down to 55 mph. Perhaps I'm even being a bit too optimistic -- with the current insanity surrounding the "war on terror", we'll be lucky if we can get the car to slow down to 75.

And when 75 mph becomes the "left limit", the RW will force everything even FURTHER to the right, calling to speed up to 150 mph!

The only way to get the car to seriously slow down is to highlight an intersection in the road. If people can see that intersection, they at least have to slow down to consider it. And when they slow down, they are able to see everything a bit more clearly and not as distorted with everything rushing by. Only in this way can they choose that other route.

Of course, I'm a Dennis Kucinich supporter. But Dennis is the only one who's pointing out that other road we can take -- and I get damned sick and tired of people condemning him for it while they advocate only letting up on the gas a little bit.

[belle]

140. I think you're correct, but that'd be true no matter who won.

re: Bush being a symptom, not the disease. Because even in the unlikely event that Kucinich won (or pick your candidate of choice), he--and we--would still be dealing with a Republican-controlled Congress (almost assuredly), the current state of the media, not to mention the big fat mess this administration has left behind...and a public who's going to want results, like, yesterday. that is, the half of the electorate that isn't already gearing up for a foaming and shredding campaign to take back their power, one that'll make the Clinton-bashing look like a singing telegram from Barney the Purple Dinosaur. eyes on the prize. think tanks. media reform. and it needs to be done under the auspices of a solid president who's powerful and unflappable enough to keep the right-wingers at bay while he toils to clean up the mess.

it's like repairing a damaged house after a destructive storm: the first thing you need to do, once the storm has stopped--make that the *very* first thing we need to do, make sure this storm, which is decidedly NOT an act of nature, STOPS--before you replace the furniture and windows, repaint, and otherwise refashion the place, you need to repair the structural damage and bail out the basement.

[Mairead]

111. Then let's do it by supporting Kucinich, the Complete Anti-Bush

Is there even one position that DK and Smirky McCokespoon agree on (and I don't count Smirky's infamous lip service)?

[mikehiggins]

53. If you want to "take a chance" go with Dean or Clark

Voting for a guy who never met a problem he couldn't take both sides of is little more than an invitation to disaster.

Right now the media is on his side and he's getting away with a whole lot of crap. After Boston that will end in a hurry and he will be just the democratic foil for the RNC campaign to beat.

ANd they most likely will.

[IrateCitizen]

100. Dean and Clark are hardly "chances", IMHO

I would say that if you want to take a chance, it involves endorsing a course that is new, inventive and even radically different from the present course.

There is only one candidate in the race offering forth such a vision for a progressive future. That candidate is Dennis Kucinich.

[CabalBuster]

43. Sorry but this "appeal" is pathetic, poor salesmanship

If the product is good, there is no need to oversell. The man has too many character and ideological flaws. There is no way I would vote for him, he cannot rely on what the did 40 years go; it's what he's done over the last 1-5 that matter to me and his voting record is troublesome to put it lightly. I think those who voted for the IWR and the Patriot Act, etc. are almost the equivalent of sellouts to Bush; another word comes to mind but I won't say it but it starts with the letter T.

[RichM]

45. No thanks. If Kerry's the nom, it exemplifies everything wrong with Dems..

Kerry's gaining the nomination exhibits abject failure by the so-called "opposition party." The Iraq war is a thoroughly criminal enterprise, but Kerry voted for it & merely disagrees with limited aspects of how it was carried out. He never mentions the word "oil" in connection with the war, thereby signalling that he's not about to expose any of the real truth about the Bushists, the MIC, or the war. He's a thoroughly Establishment candidate, which is why the media prefers him to Dean, who raises issues threatening to the corporatists, despite being of a generally conventional political stripe.

I get the sense that you're overstating some of his virtues in your above 6 points. Yes, he investigated Iran-Contra & BCCI in the '80's, but to say that he "supported the Sandinistas" sounds like a great exaggeration. I also don't think he did so much "exposing" of CIA corruption. He learned about it & knows about it, to be sure, but I don't think he aggressively pushed to "expose" it.

[cthrumatrix]

47. well put...totally agree

[corporatewhore]

46. Its not just IWR but NAFTA/WTO he isnt a liberal but a neoliberal

radicals dont vote for freetrade

[WiseMen]

49. Kerry doesn't wear a label on his back. Should he?

[deutsey]

50. I'll vote for him if he gets the nomination

Beyond that, that's all I'm willing to commit to right now.

[WiseMen]

52. Kerry's MO: I am fighting for every vote. Thanks on behalf of the the Man

[deutsey]

55. I guess I should be more explicit:

I don't support Kerry. I also think he's a weak choice if he gets the nomination. But this election is too important not to vote in it. I hope Kerry finds a way to excite a huge turnout for himself on election day if he does win the nomination. Right now, I feel very lackluster toward him, hence my statement that all I can do is say I'll vote for him if he gets nominated.

[OhioStateProgressive]

54. no(nt)

[jpgpenn]

57. not in a million years!

[WiseMen]

138. A little too long to wait. Have to go speak to some other voters

[kaitykaity]

58. Call me an idealist.

I'll support John Kerry only when he clinches the nomination, and not a moment before.

I think John Kerry is a disaster in the making. I don't think he has a snowballs' chance in hell against the right-wing henchmen, thugs, liars, and traitors that will all be singin' the praises of their boy Bush.

I will vote for him if he's the nominee. I won't say anything obnoxious about him in public.

He does not reach me. He does not make me feel proud to be a Democrat. I still think he's a Finger in the Wind politician who gets his policies and stump speeches from polls and focus groups.

Sorry, but no thanks.

[CWebster]

61. Kerry is everything I despise about politicians

You can not imagine the breadth and depth of that sentiment.

Anyone who enlisted in Viet Nam at that time exercized poor judgement. Kerry came home and, with finger to the wind, said patriotism was fashionably expressed through anti-war sentiment and jumped onboard. He allowed the illusion that he dropped his own medals over the wall until someone discovered them hanging on his wall. My father served in Korea, witnessed his best friend being blown up and carried shrapnel from the explosion in his back until the day he died. He would allow no military marker on his grave and he HATED types like Kerry who tried to gain political points exploiting war experience as something heroic to be proud about.

Kerry is a pretentious, unpricipled political opportunitist, possessing a nasty, monotonous, elitist attitude. I am not impressed with his pissing contests, his Right-wing talking points on Israel, welfare reform, trade, affirmative action, education and vouchers the threat of Saddam and other typical political double-talk and rhetoric.

Anyone truly informed of the issues could care less what new face he puts on display for prime time, it is the same old politics as usual without a good politician to charm his way through it.

Incidently, Kerry did not sleep on the ground--he stayed at the digs of a Georgetown socialite.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anti-NAFTA]

62. This is the Senator who stabbed America in the back with NAFTA n/t

[hilzoy]

65. I will support Kerry

when he gets the nomination, and not a moment before. He was my Senator for years. I have followed his career since he got back from Viet Nam. He is everything you'd want a politician not to be, except Republican (and, to be fair, he has a good environmental record.) I will vote for him because if Bush is reelected, he will lock in a conservative majority on the Supreme Court for a long time to come, and will probably also bankrupt the country. I will probably even WORK for him, out of a sense of civic duty. But don't ask me to support him while I still have alternatives.

[Raya]

66. Don't think anyone is saying Kerry is a "Good Politician." Just the

opposite. He is famous for ignoring lots of issues re his constituents
and has just avoided many important issue for the sake of focusing
on thing he thought were important.

I think, overall he is one of the good guys with some vision for the future.

[WiseMen]

90. Do your realy believe Kerry thought that. Or Harkin?

[Jacobin]

71. Bwaahahahahahahaha

"Pristinely Progressive Record"........still can't stop laughing.

Since when, I mean, since fricking WHEN is voting for the invasion of a country to steal its oil on a pretext "progressive"? If that's "progressive" count me out.

Utter crapola.

Note to Kerry fans: Please stop trying to squeeze this nominee down on us. It's gonna be hard enough to go pull the lever for this loopy guy as it is. Trying to make strawberry ice cream out of this guys record is not working and will just make it harder to hold our noses and actually vote for they guy.

[IrateCitizen]

72. I'm going to keep on saying this until it sinks in

There is only one thing that John Kerry needs to do to get my support: WIN THE NOMINATION.

Until that time, my support will continue to go to Dennis Kucinich. Not because I am anti-Kerry, but because I believe Dennis's vision for America and its role in the world is desperately needed right now. I believe that his candidacy can help propel a progressive movement for a better future. My support for him has been long thought-out and deeply considered, and is not going to be abandoned after just the first two nomination contests.

Should John Kerry get the nomination, I will most certainly support him. But until that time, I am under no such obligation. My only obligation, as a Democratic voter, is to do what I believe to be best for the Party and the country -- and I believe that supporting the vision of Dennis Kucinich is the best thing I can do in that regard. My decision is not going to change due to a couple of popularity contests or media hype.

[WiseMen]

78. Don't you think DK should work with Kerry?

[IrateCitizen]

80. DK has stated he will back the nominee if he doesn't win

During the primary season, how does he owe it to Kerry to "work with" him? They're both running for the same position. Why doesn't John Kerry "work with" Dennis Kucinich?

Your question is a complete strawman, obviously meant only to avoid the point I made in response to your initial statement.

[IrateCitizen]

101. I guess I was right in calling your question a strawman...

... considering how you failed to respond in over 24 hours now.... :shrug:

[Mairead]

112. If Kerry truly wanted the best for the US

he would at least adopt DK's positions wholesale. That's the absolute minimum he'd do.

And if he had any courage, he'd recognise that he's far from the best Dem standing and he'd put his campaign machinery to work helping DK get the nomination instead of trying to get it himself.

Up until some point before or just as he decided to stand for President, Kerry was a decent run-of-the-mill liberal with a solid if boring record. Then someone told him that he'd have to move to the right sharpish. And so he did. He hasn't done a very good or believable job of it, but it's been more than enough to give me the cauld grues.

[WiseMen]

143. I argee. Should go with your conscienced.

[jonnyblitz]

73. if he is the DEM candidate I will have no choice but to vote for

him. :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

74. hell no!

[vision]

76. I don't really trust him

He has a good progressive record except for the past couple years. He may be a great person and an honorable man. I will vote for him if he is the nominee.

But for some reason he sets my hackels on edge and I don't trust him.

[RetroLounge]

79. Whatever

:eyes:

[Raya]

84. Hey, If the Kerry camp wanted to do the "Win Nod then Swing to Middle"

strategy, we would not be so fervently appealing to the progressive
activists to rally behind Kerry in the fight against Bush.

[TLM]

86. I will NOT vote for Kerry.

Kerry and Bush are two heads of the same corrupt corporate beast.

I have said this before and I will say it again... Dean is the democratic party's last f-ing chance.

If the insiders work to shut out the grassroots, they will not get my vote.

You do not slam the door in my face today, then ask for my help and support tomorrow. I will not continue to support the democratic party's enabling of the republican party. If Kerry gets the nomination, we've lost. Bush gets 4 more years... or a Bush supporter gets 4 years.

Either way we lose.

[elb77]

87. Honestly...

I initially thought Kerry was a shoe-in. Then Dean picked up speed and I found I really agreed with his message...and actions. Here's the thing...I like Kerry's policy for the most part. He and Dean have a lot of similar platform issues. But I'm angry about the war and the Patriot Act and NCLB. And I don't understand where Kerry's initial support for those issues came from...that's why he hasn't won me over. His words/actions seem to have been hypocritical. It certainly prevents him from attacking the Bush administration on any of these issues.

I'm worried about any candidate who seems to vote based on political climate.

[WiseMen]

88. I Just Think Kerry's long record shows we can take a chance on him

[corporatewhore]

95. cough NAFTA/WTO/GATT PATRIOT ACT IWR cough

[IrateCitizen]

98. Now, now... don't confuse the debate with facts!

:evilgrin:

[quaker bill]

92. As a 'Friend' and a progressive, I think not

Having studied the man at length, I find little compelling about the candidacy of John Forbes Kerry.

My convictions lead me not to vote for a candidate that was complicit in the war on Iraq. This rules out GW Bush in the same manner that it rules out JF Kerry.

I am most disconcerted by the recent turn of events. After 20,000 dead civilians we find no evidence to support the justification for this action. Mr. Kerry was apparently beating the war drums on Iraq well after the Iraqi's had fully complied with the weapons ban. At a time when according to the available evidence now in hand, economic sanctions should have been lifted.

In 1998 the frustration was that the inspectors were finding no more weapons. Rather than accept this as the valid result one would expect because there were no more weapons, Mr. Kerry argued for military action with "sustained targeting of the regime". In fact, the best evidence now indicates there were no weapons then.

Not satisfied with the results of Desert Fox, Mr. Kerry argued in 1999, that Saddam remained a threat and that a "ultimate time of confrontation" would arise and the "sooner the better". Best evidence now indicates there were no weapons then either.

Best estimates are that approximately 500,000 Iraqi children died due to malnourishment and inadequate healthcare directly attributable to the economic sanctions. If facts and justice had prevailed, these sanctions should have been lifted nearly 10 years ago. John F. Kerry was then a leading voice in the 'Saddam is a threat' movement. We know now that there was very little if any real evidence to support this assertion.

What is the response to this? We are going to have a Warren Commission styled 'investigation'. The Washington establishment has closed ranks and will find some mid-level CIA operatives to demote.

Just a minute here. This is not a space shuttle accident. This has been the result of an orchestrated movement of the entire government running well back into the Clinton Administration. Its tangible result was the dropping of many 2000 pound bombs on a civilian population center of 4 million people with no justification. John F. Kerry is complicit as an advocate of agressive policy toward Iraq for at least 6 years if not longer. Bush* did not need to build a movement to support this war, it was already there, and in no small part because of the efforts of John F. Kerry.

I have been a straight ticket democratic voter for 32 years. I have fought hard for progressive values and to bring them forward within the party and my community. This party, my party, has the opportunity to choose to run a solid anti-war candidate. It even has solid options to choose among. I am so profoundly disappointed at this potential choice that I am quite unsure that I could countenance, support, and enable it with my vote.

[CWebster]

99. Just what we need

another vain empty suit, clalmmoring to fill the image of JFK in their mind's eye.

[Raya]

103. Guess you have been reading the propaganda. Great that that is only

type of charge they can invent against Kerry. Too Bad Mr. Rove.

[Forkboy]

105. Just rereading this

and calling Kerry a "radical" is quite possibly the funniest thing I've read on DU in ages.

I dont even mean that as a knock against the guy,but c'mon,that is just downright silly.

[WiseMen]

107. Someone who is Overtly radical could never be elected.

We are taking a bet on the inner spirit of a man.

Between Dean Edwards Clark and Kerry, I would bet on Kerry.

[IrateCitizen]

108. Your contortionism is becoming quite impressive, WiseMen

So now, you're trying to tell us that Kerry is really a radical on the INSIDE, and therefore we should all place our bets with him?

My God, man! You're spinning like a top.

One cannot be a "closet radical". One is either a radical, or one is not. You cannot be both Emma Goldman and Bill Clinton at the same time -- there's just an innate conflict of just about EVERYTHING in trying to promote such a scenario.

And trying to portray Dennis Kucinich as a "radical" is just unbelievable! If anything, it is indicative of how far all debate is controlled by the corporate establishment in this country. The only thing radical about Dennis Kucinich is that he sees us speeding in a car over a cliff -- and he proposes actually TURNING the car rather than just slowing it to a more manageable speed without changing the direction.

I'm so glad we have people like you to peer into the window of people's souls and discern where their TRUE intentions lie. :eyes:

[Forkboy]

109. Thank you Irate

you answered far better,not to mention diplomatically,than I could :)

[corporatewhore]

114. Kerry is radical

he supports a system of trade that rapes the land sells american jobs to SLAVES robs natives of their land and gets people so upset like in bolvia they overthrow the government

[corporatewhore]

106. Kerry voted for fast track for FTAA how do tell the revolutiaries and

radicals who risked arrest and bodily harm to protest the talks in miami?How do tell us who were chased like rats through the projects and were maced and gassed who took rubber bullets and beatings and didnt mind it so much because of their conviction how do tell the workers who marched 34 miles for workers rights to take a chance sure you will threaten bush but dont ask us to trust kerry

[Iverson]

110. "Workers of the world, UNITE!"

"You have nothing to lose but opposition to IWR, NAFTA, IMF, WTO, NCLB, ..."

Funny, that's not how I remember that quote.

:freak:

[corporatewhore]

113. you forgot FTAA he approved of bushs fast track last year

[in_cog_ni_to]

115. If Kerry is the nominee,

I'm leaving the Democratic party. Period. I'll register as an Independent and vote 3rd Party for the rest of my life.

Kerry voted for the IWR, Patriot Act and NCLB. He is NOT someone I would EVER vote for. I can't stand the man. Sorry. He wins...count me out.

I would vote for Kucinich, Dean or Sharpton...after my first choice, Clark. Kerry, Edwards and Lieberman are Washington Insiders who will keep things the way they are. NOTHING will change in this godforsaken government unless we put someone in there who will stop it. Kerry and Edwards are part of the problem, they will never be part of the solution.

[WiseMen]

118. Sorry to hear that. Kerry was in Clark's Corner re the Balkans & Pentagon

[Cheswick2.0]

117. absolutely not

forget about it. He is a KopyKat, a bore and the worlds biggest waffle king.

[WiseMen]

119. Kerry was Giving Radical and Progressive Speeches when Others Skied

And has continued for the past 30 years.

If anything, it is Dean and others who co-opted Kerry's message
without a thank you.

[corporatewhore]

127. Kerry does not have the guts to co opt Kucinichs

[kerryistheanswer]

120. amen wisemen

i totally agree. jk is more progressive then he's perceived and will change things in dc when he gets power. he's no kucinich, who i LOVE, but he's the best shot we have.

thanks for the thoughtful post.

[bigfishsmallpond]

129. sorry not yet

maybe later

he needs to earn my respect

I'll stick to assorted Clark Dean scenarios for the moment

[Raya]

131. Kerry is Still the best bet.

[teevee99]

132. i'm tired of politics as usual.

i'm saying it here first,
if john kerry is the dem nominee, even with dean or clark as his VP, I will NOT vote democratic in november.

[David Zephyr]

133. Well, I'm Channeling Karl Marx And It Doesn't Look Promising.

But I'll keep you posted. :hi:

[WiseMen]

137. Keep trying. Saw here that some are having Kerry Dreams (Nightmares)

[frustrated_lefty]

139. Kerry

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke::puke: :puke: :puke::puke: :puke: :puke::puke: :puke: :puke::puke: :puke: :puke::puke: :puke: :puke::puke: :puke: :puke::puke: :puke: :puke:

[Raya]

151. Guess you will give your all for the nominee, right.

[scheming daemons]

145. Uh... Sorry, no... I want to actually BEAT BUSH

...and Kerry's negatives are too high to accomplish that goal.

I loathe George W. Bush. My blood boils when I think of all the damage he has done to this country and our image around the world.

I want him OUT. Yesterday.

Because of that desire, I am looking at this election from the point of view of "which candidate is more likely to get 270 electoral votes?"

I've been a political junkie for 30 years. Looking over the current crop of candidates, and knowing the electorate like I think I do, they come out in this order:

Edwards
Clark
Kerry
Dean
Kucinich
Sharpton

I'm sorry, we don't have the luxury of being idealogically "pure" this time around. We need to win. There will be upwards of four Supreme Court nominations during the next presidential term. We cannot have those appointments made by chimp boy.

Once Rove starts hitting hard on John Kerry, we'll see commercials showing gay marriages on Martha's Vinyard and, fairly or not, most of America will associate Kerry with gay marriage. It will make Willie Horton look like a minor political ploy.

Ignore the polls right now. Dukakis had a 17-point lead in July of 1988 over Poppy Bush.

Kerry will get creamed. Edwards, and to a lesser extent Clark, are the only ones in this field that can win the General Election.

John Kerry is to the Democrats in 2004 what Bob Dole was to Republicans in 1996. The Repukes thought they had that election in the bag... they were even more fervently ABC than we are ABB... and January polls showed Clinton faltering. Dole was the "safe" and "electable" choice for the GOP. He was a war hero running against a draft dodger. How could the GOP lose? On election day, the tired, old Dole lost by nearly 9 million votes and 200 electoral votes.

Kerry is our tired, old, "safe" candidate. He offers no real reason for middle America to take a chance on him. When push comes to shove, too many independents and average Joe's who don't follow things as closely as we do will hold their nose and vote for the devil they know.

Only John Edwards has the capability to excite middle America to actually feel good about voting FOR the Democrat, instead of just against the Republican.

Bill Clinton had it... Ronald Reagan had it... John Kennedy had it... that special "something" that connects them emotionally with the average guy on the street. John Edwards has "it". John Kerry most definitely does not.

If Kerry is the nominee, we WILL get creamed in November.

Wise up, folks. We need a young, optimistic alternative for people to feel good about pulling the "D" lever when they go into the booth. Of course all of us DU-ers will pull that lever for Kerry, but we would pull that lever for a wet sock if it meant Bush was out.

But DU-ers.. and our way of thinking.. are not enough to create an electoral majority.

Kerry, ironically, has moved ahead because of the "electability" issue... but in reality, he's not all that electable outside of the diehard left.

If he wins this nomination, we all lose. Let's stop this train wreck while we still can.... the candidate needs to be John Edwards (or at least Wes Clark).

[liberty rising]

146. Dennis Kucinich is The One

We all know, though not the media darling of the moment (of any moment, for that matter), Dennis is miles ahead of the pack--in policies, idealogy, conviction, capability and heart. Dennis Kucinich can win in November, and Dennis is by far the most capable candidate to guide this lost ship of a nation out of the darkness, and into light of a new day.


Let the day begin. Support Dennis Kucinich.

[Desertrose]

149. No to Kerry..I agree with liberty rising...Kucinich

is the best we got...
I agree & well put...
..."Dennis is by far the most capable candidate to guide this lost ship of a nation out of the darkness, and into light of a new day."

:hi: & welcome, liberty rising
peace
DR