There is so much ill will towards Dean at DU

[ProudToBeLiberal]

Before I thought he was the front runner and that was why people were attacking him. But now when he's not the front runner it's always as kerry put it "dean dean dean dean..."

[Syrinx]

1. I don't see why so many people think he's unlikeable

Comes across as a good guy to me. And I feel kind of sorry for him lately.

[DjTj]

2. I think once you become a "front-runner" and start getting flame...

...it's hard to put the fire out.

If Kerry ever drops out of "front-runner" status, I'll bet the flame still keeps coming.

If you don't stop, drop, and roll or you're still going to be on fire.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. Towards who?

:shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

4. It has nothing to do with him labeling two of his strongest contenders Re

"Republicans."

[NashVegas]

26. Please

To say that is to deny any of this was going on as far back as July.

[chimpymustgo]

33. Back to last January. Dean got on the map attacking EVERYBODY!

Kerry, first - even while the man was recovering from prostate surgery.
Then he hit Edwards, Graham, Gephardt - EVERYBODY. He denounced the other candidates as Bush-lite, cockroaches. His arrogance and attacking turned a lot of people off.

Then there's the flip-flops, lies and gaffes. Medicare, Affirmative Action, campaign finance, "I'm the only one talking about race", "I'm not going to talk about God - no wait, we're going South, and I found Jesus!" Just a FEW of the many many many issues Howard Brush Dean was untruthful and/or pandering on.

And some Dean supporters have been so arrogant and derisive of everybody else on the board who supported other candidates. Anything short of Dean worship was labelled an attack. It was was pretty brutal around here - there was a lot of bullying.

I am almost sorry to see what Dean is going through now. But karma is a bitch.

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. DLC operatives have attempted to take over the board

and ram their agenda down everyone's throats. I believe they consider Dean more of a threat than Bush does. And that should be evidence enough of how un-democratic they truly are.

[MoonRiver]

7. Many Democrats do consider Dean more of a threat than * does.

In fact, * doesn't consider him a threat at all. :eyes:

[Skip Intro]

19. There does seem to be an organized "anti-Dean" influx

**** 'em anyway

:D

[southerngirlwriter]

20. I have been guilty of some anti-Dean stuff

not vicious hating, just expressing very strong annoyance.

I clicked reply to the post above as an example of why I get so frustrated. In truth, I probably haven't given Dr. Dean a fair shake, because I see his supporters saying things like this -- that the DLC operatives have infiltrated the board.

This is NOT a personal attack -- I am sure you're a wonderful person, neighbor, employee, parent, and friend -- but sentiments like the ones you're expressing make me hope Dean isn't the nominee. I don't want to work on a campaign with someone who REALLY BELIEVES that the DLC spends its limited time and resources "infiltrating" a message board where, at MOST, 37,000 voters participate. (Skinner has said "thousands" of that numbers are banned disruptors, but I'm going to be generous and say that every person who's ever registered comes back and reads the boards and takes it seriously.)

I'm not questioning your sincerity -- in fact, I admire your passion -- but I just don't know where to start. Um, no! The DLC doesn't give a rat's ass about this or any other message board!!

This is not personal to you, like I said, and I'm mostly using your post as an example of the kind of stuff I've seen other Dean supporters say.

My mother thinks that the self-check-out-stands in Wal-mart are a sign that the Antichrist is coming soon and will make us all take the Mark of the Beast.

If she were a liberal, she'd probably think the DLC was infiltrating message boards to smear her candidate.

I don't expect you to see where I'm coming from. I'm just saying that I have a hard time taking Dean seriously when his supporters are spouting stuff like this.

You're probably offended and feel personally attacked. I am sincerely sorry if I've hurt your feelings. I'm just being honest. As I said, I'm sure you're a good person, and in fact, writing out my thoughts on this has made me realize I need to give Dean a fairer chance, although a part of me still cringes very much at the thought of a Dean candidacy.

[Zomby Woof]

6. it's just blowback

nt

[GoldenOldie]

12. DEAN

Dr. Dean has campaigned thru 2 States and the media whores have already counted him out....Iowa and New Hampshire????? Two States have selected the Presidential Nominee???? It can be compared to the Presidential elections when the East coast has completed the tally and the West coast is still going thru the voting process yet, they have been completely ignored......the voting has not been completed?????? The media whores, lazy as they are, want to go home and are willing to declare a winner or whomever will ensure their paycheck. The Neocons and their media voices want to declare who will face off Georgie and are willing to push poll and declare the winner for the Dem's before any voter has had a chance to pull the lever on there choice. Gimme a break!!!!! Even teenagers are not willing to swallow this crap.

[Zomby Woof]

14. I have been counting him out for a year now

I do my own thinking on these matters, thank you.

[ModerateMiddle]

36. Exactly.

I didn't need the "media" to tell me not to support Dean. And I didn't need to listen to the "media" when John Kerry was declared dead in the water.

I decided that Dean would, IMO, be a disaster for the Dem's chances in November 2004 very early last year. I said it here, and probably on dKos, that Dean sounds like our party's very own version of Shrub... in that he couldn't keep from making outrageous statements.

Very early on, like in 2002, I figured that my two top candidates would be Dean and Kerry. This was before Dean started trashing Dems and the Dem Party. When he did start that, I feel like I started to see Dean the way the country would see him - a candidate with a campaign based on "No!" and hatred for so many people - like anyone who disagreed with him or his supporters.

The tone is set at the top, and Dean saw nothing at all wrong with disparaging the many, many people who have worked their fingers to the bone to support Democratic causes and candidates. He painted them all with the broadest brush. When he, as a VERY centrist, perhaps even right of center Governor of Vermont declared himself the representative of the "Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party", a line lifted straight from the REAL representative of that wing, Paul Wellstone, he lost me forever.

Lots of folks jumped on his bandwagon because he had done something new and different - communicating with ordinary people, instead of professional activists and political types. He raised a ton of money and kept promising to bring millions of new people to the Democratic Party. And it looked pretty believable.

Then came the gaffes. The Saddam capture was a turning point. You know what? Dean's probably right that the folks IN the U.S. are probably not any "safer" because of Saddam's capture. Just as it is probably true that Dems won't HAVE to rely on Southerners to recapture the White House. But neither of those statements were very wise to voice publicly.

The last week before Iowa, as it was clear that Kerry and Edwards were gaining momementum, Dean (and his advisors) started to panic. They couldn't decide whether he should attack back or remain "above the fray". He looked very inconsistent. And the polls started changing in NH as well. Dean's negatives went up.

Then came Iowa. And the lack of the vaunted organization and the conspicuous lack of these "new voters" coming out in force FOR Dean. Oh, there were new voters alright (half of the caucus participants were first timers), but they came out for Kerry and Edwards. I read today (NY Times?) that the Dean campaign had expected 37,000 "1's" on Jan 19. 22,000 showed up.

The hope of bringing new people into the party (high turnout has always favored the Dem party) has been around for decades. And it has never panned out.

Something else has happened. There was a very new constinuency that appeared in large numbers, in both Iowa and NH. Veterans. But they didn't turn out for Dean.

[corporatewhore]

8. Centrist Record esp the nuclear waste bit and taking money from AIPAC but

have to give him props for getting the washington insiders shakin in their loafers (eventhough he is like one imho)

[MercutioATC]

9. It's just a dozen or so posters posting the same thing over and over.

...and they've always done this.

No big anti-Dean thing here, just a few people looking to draw some easy blood.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

23. Yup.

[kichigai usagi]

10. Dean was always a threat....

to the Washington insiders that is! I still belive Howard Dean is the BEST man for the job, he's a fiscal conservative - Social progresive. He knows that we cannot spend money like crazy but we can adjust our priorities so that we take care of the people AND the national interest....you don't have to focuse on only one or the other.

Kerry is a pro at Republican stly dirt slinging, after all...it got him to where he is today.

***Gore won in 2000***

[SharonAnn]

13. Exactly right! The "Insiders" are afraid of him.

They're scared to death of him.

We need to get rid of the "insiders".

[ModerateMiddle]

39. and replace them with what?

The big energy from the Dean campaign is looking to be a lot of petulance about now, with folks, allegedly big on dumping W in November, are going to take their marbles and go home if Dean doesn't win. That's the stick-with-it-ness that the Dem party needs alright :eyes:

[newyawker99]

24. Hi kichigai usagai!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Tim_in_HK]

32. My Japanese is rusty . . .

but welcome 'crazy rabbit!'

Sono imi, desho ka??

[MoonRiver]

11. I just don't like him. I'm not a Washington insider,

just a humble citizen. My opinion of him has changed from extremely positive to its current negative state based entirely on the good doctor's own behavior. Real simple.

[GoldenOldie]

16. Dean's behavior???

Specifically what behavior are you talking about????

[ModerateMiddle]

40. "Dean's behavior"

Specifically

• Dissing ALL Democrats, including people who have worked very hard for Progressive policies for years.
  
  
• The "cockroaches" statement
  
  
• The petulant response that "Americans aren't any safer" after the capture of Saddam
  
  
• Hollering at some guy to "Sit down. You've had your say, and now I'm going to have mine."
  
  
• Daily seeming to switch from running a positive campaign to "I'm going to go after everybody now."
  
  
• Appealing to McAulife to stop the other candidates from attacking him, after he spent nearly ALL of 2003 attacking the other candidates.

Need I go on?

[diamondsoul]

41. I take exception to this-

"The petulant response that "Americans aren't any safer" after the capture of Saddam"

Petulant my rear end! That was a fact, and good on the Gov. for saying it! It's the truth.

[Elidor]

15. No ill will here

If Dean doesn't start doing better immediately, I'll have to vote for him in the primary. If he does better before it gets here, I'll vote my conscience - Kucinich.

I'm not a rah-rah Dean person, in fact I'm pretty lukewarm about him, but he's damn close to getting my vote. He just may be my baloney sandwich. Fuck the DLC

[bigtree]

17. I for one am grateful for the energy that the Doctor has brought

to the campaign. I am impressed by the forceful way he has taken Bush to task. I appreciate his presence in the race.

[EllieDem]

I just have to laugh at anyone who calls

Kerry a "republican" What a hoot

[MercutioATC]

21. Kerry's not a Repub, but he's voted with them on at least 3 recent

important issues. THAT'S the point. The Patriot Act, NCLB and the IWR were HUGE issues, where Democrats had a chance to stand up and say "This isn't right" even if they ultimate lost the vote. Kerry didn't choose to do that. He chose to make the easiest political decision and vote with the Repubs and public sentiment regardless of the dangerous content of the legislation.

That kind of weakness is EXACTLY why I never felt motivated to become involved in politics. For me, Kerry's the reason I never cared...he's weak when it counts. He won't stand up for what we (or, at least I) stand for. Hell, if I wanted that, I'd just vote Republican.

[EllieDem]

18. I just have to laugh at anyone who calls

Kerry a "republican" What a hoot

[genius]

22. He and his supporters have been attacking everyone

That's why Dean doesn't have a lot of friends outside of his campaign.

[joshcryer]

27. There are some posters here who I've seen only contributing...

...negative comments about Dean. They do not talk about their preferred candidate, nor do they say anything remotely indicitive of someone who actually cares about the issues, just someone who wants to bash Dean.

That I've seen.

[NashVegas]

28. The Archives Are Your Friends

Use them wisely.

[adadem]

25. Here at DU

it's a few of his fervent supporters, not all, just a few who have made me dislike the "troops" more than the man. I left the campaign for a slew of reasons..the anger, the plan, and some of the people involved...sadly, a few with "boiling" anger and closed eyes have hurt the majority of those supporters.

[MaineDem]

29. Don't let it get to you

Thankfully, DU is not the real world and I have yet to run across any of this hostitity in my face-to-face contacts with supporters of any of the candidates. And I've met a lot.

[Renew Deal]

30. DU is full of political activists.

We aren't just the general public. We are involved in different parties and movements. We have strong or set opinions. Dean was the front runner for a while and people got to know him. The people that don't like him have good reasons not to like him. The people that do, have good reasons for that too.

There is a lot about Dean that sets people off. People didn't like that he said one thing and did another. People here don't forget. People here also hated that he called their candidates Bush-Lite or Republicans. Especially when his background is filled with centrist views.

So part of it is healthy competition and some is vitriol. But it goes both ways.

[Hav]

31. .

There is much ill will towards many of the candidates here,not only Dean.
In the last days I would say even more against Kerry than against Dean, but that might be only my personal perception.
What is a fact is that several posters here only post to bash other candidates without real substance and neither can they convince other suppoertes nor are they good for their own cause.

[fishnfla]

34. Hell, there is ill-will within his own camp!

I hear they just cant get along well.

[Jawja]

35. There is ill will

toward Dean for what I see him doing right this minute on MTP, as it is playing in my area. He is ripping Kerry to shreds.

This kind of campaigning turns people off, or turns me off anyway. Dean is coming across today as a sniper and attack dog.

I would like to see Dean talk about his ideas and what he would do as President instead of attack all of Washington in general. I agree that we need to "take our country back," but I want to hear more than criticism of the status quo. He is wasting a valuable hour on a national forum right this minute.

on edit: I am hearing that now in the second half of MTP. THAT's what I want to hear from Howard Dean. I love his enthusiasm; I don't like the whining and the attack dog tactics.

[diamondsoul]

42. BINGO!

Dean's entire message from my perspective is telling us all what we already know- The country is headed for hell in a hand-cart, and damn are we movin' fast!

No kidding, Gov. now what do we actually DO to stop it?!

[NashVegas]

44. Could You Be More Specific?

I've no idea what you're talking about.

[fishnfla]

46. Sure

According to the NYT, the Vermont factions and the DC factions of the campaign could not agree.
According to me, (just guessing here), someone in that camp was pissed when the 41 million was spent recklessly. Someone had to preach discipline, right?

Look, the Dean/Trippi/Ganz internet-based populism had a free ride for months at DU. When push came to shove, they were too spread out to have any discipline.

[MAlibdem]

37. Watching his post-NH speech

I found I agreed with a lot of what Dean was saying, makes sense, we're all Democrats. However, based on the actions of Deaniacs I saw in NH, I don't think he can stand up to GWB, you are judged, in part, by the company you keep. If the company you keep scares voters (as I believe Deaniacs do), then you will not win. I like Dean's rhetoric, his supporter's rhetoric could easily be found at a conspiracy-theory anarchist rally.

-OMG! The WHOLE world's out to get us!
-No, you lost, put down the molotov.

[jpgpenn]

38. It wouldn't have anything to do with him calling other Dems, repukes...

would it?

[OKNancy]

43. If he wouldn't call Gen Clark a Republican

I'd feel a lot more kindly toward him. Clark is a Democrat!

[THUNDER HANDS]

45. it's nothing personal with me

Just politics. I like Kerry more than Dean, and I believe that when you're on top you have to keep someone down and keeep pounding them until they submit.

If Dean manages to turn it around and overtake Kerry and become the nominee, I'll realize he was the better man and I'll fully support him, continue to donate to him, and work to get him elected.

But right now, it's like a trench war in here. :tinfoilhat:

And I'm in Kerry's trench.

[elb77]

47. what is going on here?

I have found myself getting very worked up in the past week. I just don't understand what has happened. How did Dean drop 20 points in Iowa overnight? That makes no sense. Some people may say it was based on electability. Well, if the one candidate who revitalized this party isn't electable...we've got major problems. Let's think about this. If you were Karl Rove and found the front-runner of the Democratic party to be someone Bush could easily beat (as he said about Dean), what would you do? I would keep my mouth shut and let him win the bid. If you were Karl Rove and found the front-runner of the Democratic party to be a real threat, what would you do? I'd slander him...call him an "angry liberal", tell the nation I was eager to compete, insure he lost the bid. I fear the American public is being manipulated.

Ultimately, I will support the democratic nominee regardless of who it is. But I have my reservations about Kerry and whether he can compete with Bush. He'll fight Bush on the war, and Bush will respond with, "You voted for it." He'll fight Bush on the Patriot Act, and Bush will respond, "You voted for it." He'll fight Bush on No Child Left Behind, and Bush will respond, "You voted for it." He's an easy target. I am angry about the war and Kerry hasn't given a solid reason for supporting it. Six months ago, he said he supported it completely, but believed the plan to rebuild the country was weak at best. Now he says he just supported it as a "last resort". And when confronted about his decision to oppose the first Iraqi War and support the second Iraqi War, he made a ridiculous statement about the country being divided during the first war...(and we weren't during the second?) After speaking with many disillusioned Bush supporters, I asked them whether they would support Dean or Kerry and ALL of them said Dean. If he can entice the independents, exactly how is he not electable?

I, for one, hope this race isn't over. I won't let it be. Afterall, Dean is leading in the delegate race...which is what matters. Don't let the media decide this one. Don't let the party leaders decide this one. And certainly don't let the Republicans decide this one.

[Skinner]

48. I'm locking this thread.

This is basically a discussion of who has the most disruptive supporters.