Deleted message

[Name removed]

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PVnRT]

1. It's also insulting to the rest of the voters in the country

to demand that everyone drop out and quit after two states have voted.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PVnRT]

11. It's a weak arguemnt

to say that there are 48 states left, and they might have different sentiments than New Hampshire and Iowa?

"Why in heaven's name should any Dem be asked to put him forth as their candidate against Bush?"

In other words, he should just quit. Thanks for proving my point.

[eileen from OH]

14. Two important states?????????

#1 Iowa was NOT primary but a combo church social/political swap meet.

#2 New Hampshire is hardly an "important" state and it sure-as-shit ain't representative of the country as a whole, whether it's the "first" one or not.

Why in the world should any Dem be asked to put forth the winner of these two contests as the nominee? Right now Kerry is running on the momentum of those two wins. Period. It ain't like the people who had him in single digits in the polls BEFORE all of a sudden discovered his admirable qualities. They're jumping on a bandwagon. I don't blame them, Dean hoped to be driving that very same bandwagon.

But, I'm scared as shit that we'll wind up with a nominee who rose to the top, not because he's the best, but because he caught the crest of "momentum" at just the right time. No one knows better than Dean supporters how fleeting and unsubstantial "momentum" can be.

Hopefully, whoever our candidate is will have a helluva lot more than that going for him.

eileen from OH

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

4. Dean wanted that in December

Too bad we said no. Boohoo.

[PVnRT]

13. Good for Kerry

I'm glad he stayed in, the more candidates the better. Too bad you think that acting like some of the nastier Dean supporters did back in December gives you guys the right to act the same way. I thought you Kerry supporters were SOOOO much better than us.

[sandnsea]

18. Who said anybody should quit??

I don't think any Kerry supporter has said anybody should drop out. Not any longtime Kerry supporter anyway. So I don't even know who you could be referring to. I'm the one who has come on this board encouraging Dean supporters when things looked darkest. But I'm done. It's time to take him out. He can't run any kind of campaign except a smear campaign and I'm sick of it. I don't want anybody just to quit and give it to one candidate. I am ready to knock Dean out altogether. The sooner he is gone the better for Clark and Edwards to actually be heard. At least they've got something constructive to say.

[KFC]

7. I think it is SUPER how Dean rolls up his sleeves.

Outstanding. Sleeve-rolling and screaming means that he means BUSINESS!

Forget votes.

[PVnRT]

12. Forget the rest of the country

They have no right to have a say in the primary. After all, only Iowa and New Hampshire voters are truly intelligent and qualified to pick the Democratic candidate.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

54. LOL

That about sums it up.

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. Other candidates will drop out soon enough

Lieberman is probably next, followed by Edwards and Clark. Then it will just Kerry and Dean. Dean's strategy is interesting, but it will probably not work unless Edwards and Clark win some primaries, taking momentum away from Kerry.

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. It is early for Dean to drop out, but

it is obvious that Sharpton, Lieberman, and Kucinich have no chance of coming anywhere near to winning the nomination. Now is their time to bow out gracefully.

Dean is going to have to start winning some primaries soon, or his campaign is going to look like the walking dead.

[girl gone mad]

2. Kerry didn't have..

a majority.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

3. Kerry's Rise (not win) is DUE to Party Insiders & the Media. Period. n/t

JB

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

6. Gore, Bradley, Carter and some lobbyist???

Dean is the insider, always has been.

[countmyvote4real]

24. And Kerry is not an insider after all these years as senator from MA?

I don't think you really want to argue for your candidate based on being or not being an insider.

[blm]

50. He's not. The establishment Dems ostracized Kerry for his investigations

into BCCI and IranContra. Some Dem powerbrokers were exposed for their part in BCCI.

The corporate Dems were also not fond of the Kyoto Protocol which Kerry helped work on for 10 years.

There are "insiders" and those working IN Washington for better government.

[MurikanDemocrat]

8. The voters of IA and NH seem to think so

as do the people responding to many of the polls in the 7 primary states next Tuesday.

I have no preference for one over the other, I just think the people are making their preference known. No tricks or conspiracies, just votes. People who vote in primaries are usually more inclined to research the issues and study the candidates a little closer than people who only vote in the GE, IMHO.

[depakid]

9. Talk about a straw man-

Whatever their theories on Iowa & New Hampshire, I doubt many people seriously entertain the idea that party insiders had a lot of influence in either case.

[zulchzulu]

10. The real story is how many voters are secret Skull and Bones operatives

Having gone to the dark side as a Skull and Bones operative, I mean, a Kerry supporter, it is good to see my brothers and sisters doing as we were programmed that dark night so long ago.

Once we take over the planet, we go onto to Mars!!!!! AHHHHHH!

[sleipnir]

15. Your post is an insult to the DLC and their minions

They have selected Kerry and Kerry it will be! The DLC has spoken and we must all obey!

[corporatewhore]

17. DLC+Media!!!

round the clock badmouthing of dean and if any coverage of kucinich it was an attempt to marginalize him

[nancyharris]

21. I disagree

I support Congressman Kucinich with both my money and vote. But if he is to win the nomination it will be because HE is capable of convincing the majority of the Democratic Party that he and his agenda is the best for the party and the country. If he cannot, he will not be the nominee and the progressive left will search for another voice.

It is never the message that fails, it is always the messenger. The message is strong and true and is indeed the best for the country. But the country must first be convinced.

[corporatewhore]

23. I was tought that what ever your issue is media reform should be your

second just think about the the unabashedly pro israeli bias in media even in NPR

[nancyharris]

30. I have no doubt

that the media is biased (on both sides). But every candidate has to deal with it. Media bias (not to mention personal bias) will never go away. The challenge in politics is to convince people of your message despite the bias. That is why lightweights (IMO) like Senator Kerry can manage – there is little of substance in his message that people need to be convinced.

Congressman Kucinich is the standard-bearer for the progressive left and I support him wholeheartedly – But he needs to find a more compelling manner to carry the message or he (like many others before him) will go down in defeat.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[corporatewhore]

36. all that book learnin does me no good at night

[BeyondGeography]

16. Kerry turned it around on the issues in Iowa

People need to remember how hard he hit Dean on middle class tax cuts (Dean continued to maintain there have been none under Bush; Kerry named specific Iowans and specific dollar amounts they would have to pay if Dean rescinded all of the Bush tax cuts as promised) and how he combined that thought with his advantage in national security and defense.

Kerry absolutely destroyed Dean in the second Iowa debate, which was broadcast on NPR. The damage was so bad that Dean afterwards announced that he would be announcing his own middle class tax cut on Feb. 2. Remember that one, Dean supporters?

Kerry also zeroed in on electability in Iowa. His line was something like "being light on national defense and heavy on middle class taxes isn't the way to beat George Bush." And it worked.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Are we correct in saying that Kerry supports Bush's irresponsible tax..

Are we correct in saying that Kerry supports Bush's irresponsible tax cuts that did away with the fiscal discipline of the Clinton Administration?

Let's remind ourselves that Clinton's fiscal discipline is what reduced Reagan's deficits and brought the nation budget surpluses and an economic boom.

So when Kerry flip-flops in the Fall and endorses any elements of Dean's proposal to rescind Bush's irresponsible tax cuts, then when can truthfully say that Kerry is trying to increase our taxes. Kerry labeled Dean's proposals as a "tax increase," echoing the same line the GOP will use against him when he does the same thing.

Restoring fiscal sanity is not a tax increase, but since Kerry already labeled it as such, why should we be shocked and hurt when the GOP refers to Kerry as a tax-loving candidate when Kerry demagogued the same issue with Dean?

[loyalsister]

44. Be serious

Gep and Dean had been going at each other's throats in IA for months. Kerry got votes from people who didn't want to reward the people they most agreed with with their votes. People in this part of the country hate negative campaigning. Kerry and Edwards got lucky in IA by showing up relatively late in the campaign season and not getting dragged into the mud.

[kodi]

19. that dog won't hunt.

your comment:

"Saying that Kerry's win is due to party insiders is an insult to voters"

is awfully squishy in terms of conciseness.

are we to understand that the insult to voters stems from saying that those Machiavellian "party insiders" duped voters into voting for Kerry or that party insiders did not use a number of the resources of the new Hampshire democratic party structure to get out the vote for Kerry.

the former opinion has no evidence, the latter plenty.

all major political parties have networks of communication, fund raising and get out the vote programs, and it is obvious to anyone on the ground that jean shaheen used her considerable influence in the state's democratic party to make available all the resources possible for Kerry's benefit.

these run from using friendly media reporters to attain positive candidate image, voting lists, donor lists, demographic analyses, polling data, phone bank lists and other things as mundane as having a "friend" reserve the best theater in a town for a particular candidate's campaign stop.

Kerry did get more votes, one of the reasons is that those who supported him in new Hampshire run the democratic party of that state and their influence, local knowledge, and advice were instrumental in getting out the vote for Kerry.

i will leave to others to determine whether or not new Hampshire Kerry voters were brainwashed by "party insiders."

but a smarter way to bitch about complaints of Kerry unfairly using party insiders would be to point out that this is exactly how a politically astute candidate builds a national campaign.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kodi]

31. why dwell on the negatives when one could be posting the positives

which you just did with your initial post. but i noticed that only in response to my post did you find voice to point out the reason kerry won and it is because he had the support of new hampshire democratic party insiders who were capable of getting the kerry message out and to get the kerry supporters to the polls....or as you state "...a good ground organization."

btw: kerry built NOTHING in new hampshire. jean shaheen and her husband did. it was their knowledge of new hampshire politics that built kerry's state campaign. without them coming on board months ago kerry was finished in new hampshire, and not only in new hapmshire, but nationally.

shaheen has saved kerry and he will owe shaheen big if he is elected, she will be able to write her own ticket if kerry is president.

there are some of us out here who are familiar with just how good a politician sheheen, remember that she gave a great keynote speech at the 2000 convention in LA, and that she is on the short list of potential female vp candidates.

she, and her husband were invaluable to kerry in new hampshire

i would cast a vote for shaheen before i would cast one for kerry, but she's not running, yet....but someday i hope she will.

[Eloriel]

34. Here's a thread you both oughtta see

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=244952

Kerry vs Dean in New Hampshire / SHOCKING results !


Interesting Points:

MORE voters feel Dean has the right temperment to be President than Kerry.

Voters 'angry' with the Bush* administration chose Dean over Kerry.

Voters opposed to IWR chose Dean over Kerry.

Voters concerned with 'issues' chose Dean over Kerry.

In summation, a sizable number of those who voted for Kerry - approved of IWR, aren't angry with Bush*, don't care about issues as much as electability, feel Kerry CAN beat Bush*, but think his temperment is WORSE than the candidate labelled as 'angry', Howard Dean.

I don't know if I've ever seen such damning support for a candidate in my life.


-- much more --

[kodi]

37. the daily kos site also mentioned it last week.

damnable indictment of kerry if his campaign did it.

[cindyw]

59. I proved this was untrue in that thread too.

"MORE voters feel Dean has the right temperment to be President than Kerry."

The question was not who has the better temperament. It was does Dean. So it is not possible to conclude that the electorate felt that Dean has a better temperament than Dean.

It would be like asking a question of people. Do you consider Kerry a good man? Then if the majority says yes, you say that the results show that the voter think that Kerry is a better man than Dean. Same thing is being done with the statement. "MORE voters feel Dean has the right temperment to be President than Kerry."

[ACPS65]

22. Bravo

.

[Eloriel]

25. What's insulting, Pete

Is your dismissal of the dirty tricks that the Party Insiders HAVE engaged in to STOP DEAN at all costs.

Yes, there are people like you who just like the man, and more power to you. And yes, Dean and the campaign have made some mistakes -- altho a good many of those "mistakes" have been way overblown media fabrications.

But to try to say that there have been NO shenanigans by Party Insiders is specious, at best. I'm (once again tonight) surprised at you.

* Push polling
* Robocalling Dean supporters at all hours of the night
* Osama bin Laden ad
* Vilsack machine in the Iowa caucus
* Gephardt-Kerry deal, Kucinich-Edwards deal (yeah, perfectly legal and all that -- but please don't try to pass them off as anything but Party Insiders working damn hard to STOP DEAN AT ALL COSTS)
* Sending Dean supporters to the wrong locations for the caucus in Iowa -- and I'm hearing the same thing is happening in New Mexico too

and the one that infuriates me the MOST:

* Co-opt every bit of Dean's message, then go into fearmongering mode n order to try to convince voters that Kerry is more electable. 56% of Kerry's votes in NH were on electability. Dean is going to have to come out swinging hard on this issue because it's just NOT true that Kerry is more electable, and people are obviously so scared of Bush that Kerry-with-Dean's-message plus his fearmongering for votes gave him two big wins.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

32. Anecdotal when it's been caught on VIDEO?

Who, exactly, are you trying to kid here?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108750,00.html

On Thursday night at about 7 p.m. in Lisbon Iowa, Dick Stater and his wife Suzette Astley — a volunteer coordinator for Dean for America — were at home being interviewed by Richard Hoefer, a Dean supporter, who is making a documentary about the former Vermont governor's campaign. Also in the room was Susan Alexander, a neighbor and Suzette's friend, who came over to be filmed for the documentary.

As the camera rolled, they received a 17-minute phone call from Jacob Thomas. Thomas identified himself as a volunteer for the Kerry campaign in Cedar Rapids who was conducting voter identification calls. Alexander said she received a similar call earlier in the evening....As a Dean volunteer coordinator, she was clearly aware that the call she was receiving was potentially inappropriate and she methodically wrote everything down.

When asked on the call, Astley identified herself as a Dean supporter, whereupon she said Thomas began to say negative, misleading and occasionally "false things about Dr Dean."

snip

Astley said supervisor "Derek" accused her of lying about the tone of her conversation with Thomas. When Astley challenged him on the "environmental racist" remark, she said Derek complained that Dean supporters "just don't seem to care about the facts."

snip

Astley said her husband Dick contacted Daneille Black, the regional Kerry coordinator near Lisbon, to complain. Dick Stater told Fox News he got a "luke warm apology that sounded like they were most sorry they got caught".

-----

Here IS some anecdotal information for ya --from one of our own DUers, someone I respect quite a bit, and he provides some info I've seen reported elsehwere (on the blog) as well:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=183938#184509
cosmicdot (1000+ posts) Sun Jan-25-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #10

12. someone pays telemarketers to canvass .....

Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 02:30 AM by cosmicdot
political telemarketing technique probably out of the Lee Atwater Book in which telephone calls are used to canvass vast numbers of potential voters, feeding them false and damaging 'information' about a candidate under the guise of taking a poll to see how this 'information' affects voter preferences. The intent is to 'push' the voters away from one candidate and toward the opposing candidate. Political telemarketing, using innuendo and, in many cases, clearly false information to influence voters; there is no intent to conduct research.

i.e., my Iowan friend said they received calls asking such questions as:

- Did you know that Howard Dean is married to a Jew?

- Did you know that Dean is an environmental racist? (whatever that means)

- Did you know that Dean is a non Christian ?

- Would you change your pledge from Dean to Kerry if you knew that Dean was supporting Gay marriage ?

- Did you know that Govenor Howard Dean has been diagnosed as a manic
depressive, prone to "fits of rage" ?

my Iowan friend, also, reported that:

- Calls came at 3 in the morning posing as from the Dean campaign.

- GOPers went to caucuses in droves, switched party affiliations and sided with Kerry........that one precinct in Sioux City had 54 republicans switch parties at the door, and all went to Kerry.

------

And if you're claiming that Dems have tried to stop Dean, then you're 100% right. I'm one of them. But to say that the motives are anything other than self-preservation is to make a baseless accusation.

Pete, Pete. Please. Do you honestly not know about the full weight of the Democratic Establishment being thrown against Dean, about the fact that Clinton got Clark into the race to STOP DEAN, and all the machinations that have been going on -- or are you just being coy?

But in a sense, you're right. The motive IS self-preservation. Self-preservation of their power. The very last thing they want is for The People to get their country back.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

43. OK. Then it's time for an independent investigation, isn't it?

Sorry, but calling it anecdotal, with no real response from the Kerry campaign doesn't wash.

[bigtree]

28. I'm no insider

I hope that I have helped him. I hope others will help as well.

[gulliver]

38. Kerry was a No vote on Dean, and a safe bet.

I agree that insiders didn't win IA and NH for Kerry. Kerry just reaped the benefit when Dean reached the tipping point and capsized just prior to the IA caucuses.

It was a counter-surge to Dean that put Kerry in the lead, not insiders. There may be a counter-surge away from Kerry Feb. 03 through 10. It won't be the hemorrhaging experienced by Dean, but it may be enough to make it a four man race. At least I hope so.

Voters are telling Kerry "maybe yes." They are telling Clark and Edwards "you are still a possibility." They are telling Dean, "I don't think so this time."

If Dean doesn't win a state on Feb. 03, he should drop out. He will have been told no and would be spoiling the race for those of us who have doubts about Kerry. I'll settle for Kerry over Dean any day, but I would feel much, much safer if our nominee were Clark.

[HuckleB]

39. Sometimes...

insults are on the mark.

Whether or not that's true in this case doesn't matter. Calling the claim an insult is a true insult. It's not an argument against the claim.

[Toucano]

40. I insult voters all the time!

Why should now be any different?

If they don't vote for my candidate, they're completely MAD! LOL!

[ecstatic]

41. Why is it an insult to acknowledge that we are susceptible to brainwashing

Most Americans are very busy and don't have time to investigate everything there is to know about candidates. The media decided for us that Dean was not electable (please re-read the headlines from 2 weeks ago and further back). Many of us decided to take heed. End of story. Its not an insult, its just acknowledging our psychological weaknesses as busy humans.

[George_Bonanza]

46. Actually, the truth is

That Kerry, in NH, won among voters who said they extensively used the internet to research their candidate. They were not duped by special interests like so many (but not all) sourgrapes Dean supporters claim.

[blm]

51. Acknowledge that the media CREATED a Dean bubble to suppress Kerry.

By pushing Dean all last year and declaring Kerry's candidacy dead for months they dried up Kerry's fundraising.

[creativelcro]

42. You forget to mention that the majority of Democrats don't vote

... And even fewer will vote for a Dem candidate if Kerry gets nominated.

[blm]

45. The People had the power to put Kerry ahead, and they did. WAY ahead.

Dean never whined louder than after the REAL PEOPLE showed their power.

[ModerateMiddle]

53. yessirreee!

It turns out that not only Dean supporters "have the power", eh?

[goodhue]

47. agreed

party insiders supported Dean or Clark by the time of Iowa caucus.

[molly]

52. Correct - concise and absolutely TRUE!

Kerry is MUCH better than Dean. People LIKE Kerry much more than Dean. Dean did himself in.

[Freddie Stubbs]

55. Maybe Democrats are paying more attention to the race

And the more they see Kerry, the more that they like him.

56. Not necessarily, if the insiders are part of the center

& most voters are also, given the way demographics work.
It might just be a statement about the way things are, not a comment on the perspicacity of the voters. Doesn't that make sense?

Maybe some people intend it as an insult, but it doesn't have to be.

[edzontar]

57. IMHO, these voters DESERVE to be insulted

For supporting the loser, Kerry.

They are digging us a grave so deep, we may never claw our way out.

[Hep]

58. If calling complacent voters complacent is insulting

then we need more of it.