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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:36 PM
Original message
Kerry accused American soldiers of war crimes.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 07:38 PM by Bleachers7
Some schrew (Katie O'Bierne) on the Capital Gang said that Kerry "slandered" american soldiers by saying that they commited war crimes. This is one of the ways the pukes will try to paint Kerry as unpatriotic and weak on defense. I found some info on this. She is full of shit. Kerry was a hero to testify the way he did.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=kerry+%2B+vietnam+%2B+%22war+crimes%22

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=8959&TagID=2

<snip>
In spring 1971, embittered veterans demonstrated against the war in Washington, many throwing away their medals.

One of their leaders, John Kerry, then a recently discharged Navy officer, now a senator and presidential candidate, delivered an impassioned speech to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 1971.

American troops in Vietnam, he said, had "raped, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

Mr. Kerry's account came from his own experience, as well as from a three-day conference of the fledgling Vietnam Veterans Against the War. At the conference, he said, "over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."
<snip>
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David Dunham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. john kerry told the truth; bob kerrey admitted he torched a village
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kate O'Bierne most certainly --
-- is a "shrew," as your post claims. That's the word I've been looking for to describe her on that show. I can't imagine having to be around her for more than five minutes.

And yo, Katie: as for American war crimes, see under: U.S. Foriegn Policy. See under: Allende.

If O'Bierne ever tried to say what she said to Senator Kerry face-to-face, the dialogue would end very swiftly.

The Republicans don't like someone with actual warrior's credentials coming after their pampered AWOL chimp.



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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. most pukes are chickenhawks
and the ones that aren't will probably not play the Vietnam card. I don't see John McCain doing this. Kerry has nothing to worry about here.

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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. She needs to read the recent stories in the Toledo Blade about the
Tiger Force. She'd shut her pie hole up fast.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wes Pruden already got bagged doing this on C-Span
yesterday, a caller quoted the actual Senate testimony.

Here's a link...

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/VVAW_Kerry_Senate.html

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
9.  How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?
EXCERPTS FROM JOHN KERRY'S TESTIMONY BEFORE THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, APRIL 22, 1971

...I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.


...In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart....

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone on peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Vietcong, North Vietnamese, or American.

We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how money from American taxes was used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by our flag, as blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs as well as by search and destroy missions, as well as by Vietcong terrorism, and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

We watched the U.S. falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings," with quotation marks around that. We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater or let us say a non-third-world people theater, and so we watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the high for the reoccupation by the North Vietnamese because we watched pride allow the most unimportant of battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point. And so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 881's and Fire Base 6's and so many others.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese....

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doen'st have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say they we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? But we are trying to do that, and we are doing it with thousands of rationalizations, and if you read carefully the President's last speech to the people of this country, you can see that he says and says clearly:

But the issue, gentlemen, the issue is communism, and the question is whether or not we will leave that country to the Communists or whether or not we will try to give it hope to be a free people.

But the point is they are not a free people now under us. They are not a free people, and we cannot fight communism all over the world, and I think we should have learned that lesson by now....

We are asking here in Washington for some action, action from the Congress of the United States of America which as the power to raise and maintain armies, and which by the Constitution also has the power to declare war.

We have come here, not to the President, because we believe that this body can be responsive to the will of the people, and we believe that the will of the people says that we should be out of Vietnam now....

We are also here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We are here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatric, and so many others. Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned? These are commanders who have deserted their troops, and there is no more serious crime in the law of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded.

The Marines say they never leave even their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They have left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching begin them in the sun in this country....




...It is my opinion that the United States is still reacting in very much the 1945 mood and postwar cold-war period when we reacted to the forces which were at work in World War II and came out of it with this paranoia about the Russians and how the world was going to be divided up between the super powers, and the foreign policy of John Foster Dulles which was responsible for the created of the SEATO treaty, which was, in fact, a direct reaction to this so-called Communist monolith. And I think we are reacting under cold-war precepts which are no longer applicable.

I say that because so long as we have the kind of strike force we have, and I am not party to the secret statistics which you gentlemen have here, but as long as we have the ones which we of the public know we have, I think we have a strike force of such capability and I think we have a strike force simply in our Polaris submarines, in the 62 or some Polaris submarines, which are constantly roaming around under the sea. And I know as a Navy man that underwater detection is the hardest kind in the world, and they have not perfected it, that we have the ability to destroy the human race. Why do we have to, therefore, consider and keep considering threats?

At any time that an actual threat is posed to this country or to the security and freedom I will be one of the first people to pick up a gun and defend it, but right now we are reacting with paranoia t this question of peace and the people taking over the world. I think if were are ever going to get down to the question of dropping those bombs most of us in my generation simply don't want to be alive afterwards because of the kind of world that it would be with mutations and the genetic probabilities of freaks and everything else.

Therefore, I think it is ridiculous to assume we have to play this power game based on total warfare. I think there will be guerrilla wars and I think we must have a capability to fight those. And we may have to fight them somewhere based on legitimate threats, but we must learn, in this country, how to define those threats and that is what I would say to the question of world peace. I think it is bogus, totally artificial. There is no threat. The Communists are not about to take over our McDonald hamburger stands....


...I don't want to get into the game of saying I represent everybody over there, but let me try to say as straightforwardly as I can, we had an advertisement, ran full page, to show you what the troops read. It ran in Playboy and the response to it within two and a half weeks from Vietnam was 1,200 members. We received initially about 50 to 80 letters a day from troops arriving at our New York office. Some of these letters -- and I wanted to bring some down, I didn't know we were going to be testifying here and I can make them available to you -- are very, very moving, some of them written by hospital corpsmen on things, on casualty report sheets which say, you know, "Get us out of here." "You are the only hope he have got." "You have got to get us back; it is crazy." We received recently 80 members of the 101st Airborne signed up in one letter. Forty members from a helicopter assault squadron, crash and rescue mission signed up in another one.

I think they are expressing, some of these troops, solidarity with us, right now by wearing black arm bands and Vietnam Veterans Against the War buttons. They want to come out and I think they are looking at the people who want to try to get them out as a help.

However, I do recognize there are some men who are in the military for life. The job in the military is to fight wars. When they have a war to fight, they are just as happy in a sense, and I am sure that these men feel they are being stabbed in the back. But, at the same time, I think to most of them the realization of the emptiness, the hollowness, the absurdity of Vietnam has finally hit home, and I feel is they did come home the recrimination would certainly not come from the right, from the military. I don't think there would be that problem....



...You see the mind is changing over there and a search and destroy mission is a search and avoid mission, and troops don't -- you know, like that revolt that took place that was mentioned in the New York Times when they refused to go in after a piece of dead machinery, because it doesn't have any value. They are making their own judgments.

There is a GI movement in this country now as well as over there, and soon these people, these men, who are prescribing wars for these young men to fight are going to find out they are going to have to find some other men to fight them because we are going to change prescriptions. They are going to have to change doctors, because we are not going to fight for them. that is what they are going to realize. There is now a more militant attitude even within the military itself....

John Kerry, 4/22/71

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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Did you see that?
That was great! Ole Wes got quite a slap down by that guy.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. If Kerry was telling the truth, it took guts
I don't like Kerry much at all, but this is not something to criticize him for.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. "this is not something to criticize him for"????
It was damned heroic!
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Vietnam vets speak out for and against Kerry's anti-war protests
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
10. It was not that uncommon to cut off an ear as proof of a kill...
Or to tie a VC on a long pole, as if he were a pig, and carry him to a designated area. It happened. There are pictures out there some place. It hapened that they would cut their nuts off and stuff them in their mouths...It was not that uncommon to take a few "prisoners" up in a helicopter and start throwing them out one at a time until you got the information you wanted. There were atrocities all over Viet Nam, not just at My Lai. People need to understand that the American GIs can be the cruelest people in the world... The idealistic version of American GI's is only a figment of someone's imagination that has never been to war with them...
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. You forgot the punchline-
Because we are Americans- we are a "superpower".:nuke:
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Were you there, kentuck?
It was, I'm sure, Hell on Earth.

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Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. It's not just American soldiers, Kentuck
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 10:54 PM by Johnyawl
People need to understand that the American GIs can be the cruelest people in the world.

That's quite an unfair, and dishonest generalization. A more accurate generalization would be to say ...American GIs can be amongst the cruelest people in the world

War dehumanizes a person, it doesn't matter what nationality you are. ALL soldiers are cabable of those acts, and those things happen in every war, and are perpetrated by both sides. Yes, there were atrocities all over Vietnam, and not all of them committed by Americans. The VC & NVA were not conducting themselves like boyscouts, believe me. No army does, most especially in a civil war.

That doesn't make it right, or any less horrifying, nor does it make it any easier for the survivors to live with, at least those with a decent amount of empathy. But to accuse the American soldier of being more cruel than others is as intellectually dishonest as subscribing to the idealistic 'JohnWayne' version of the American GI.


on edit: It didn't seem right to post in this thread without expressing my admiration for Kerry for coming home and taking a stand against what was going on. And the repugs can fuck themselves, the vast majority of Vietnam veterans know that Kerry spoke the truth in that speech. Even the ones that disagree with his politics KNOW that he spoke the truth about the conditions we were fighting under, and what was going on there.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. Tell the truth shame the devil
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations
April 23, 1971

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/VVAW_Kerry_Senate.html

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term Winter Soldier is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriots and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out....



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iowapeacechief Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. No US war criminals since Vietnam?
Or nobody with the guts to say so?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Very insightful.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. Headline Should Say, "Wingnut Shrew Accuses KERRY..."
Otherwise it sounds like somebody at DU is saying what the wingnut shrew said.
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DJcairo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. That's the point, these guys has testified to it themselves
It showed how the war over there was turning these guys into war criminals. The hearing room was packed in 1971 with veterans cheering Kerry's testimony. This woman on Capitol Gang completely mischaracterized his comments. She is a Repuke hack.
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