Saw "Flight 93" last night. It was so sad. And those people saved

[applegrove]

a thousand lives. What heroes!:cry:

[FreedomAngel82]

1. I saw a bit of it

It wasn't too bad. It wasn't like I thought it would be.

[DS1]

2. Was that before or after they were shot down anyway?

[TomInTib]

4. And how DID they shake that engine loose so it would land miles

from the crash site?
Maybe the "Let's Roll"tm guy crawled out on a wing with one of their boxcutters.

And whatever happened to the human remains? And the flight recorder?

Maybe I just missed some details.

Anyway, I am grateful there were high-quality vid cams on board so we all know what really happened and don't have to rely on some made-up script.

Too bad this didn't come out in time for all those "in-ves-ti-gay-shuns". Could have kind of condensed things.

[DS1]

6. They threatened to splash hot coffee on the engine and the chickenshit

wing just detached itself

[eve_was_framed]

65. remains from that plane were scattered over an 8 mile radius but

like you point out where is the remains of the people, where is the flight recorder? Looks to me that the pentagon and the gov't got the spin they wanted from this film.

[GalleryGod]

5. Forensic Observations Back You Up.

:patriot: That "Let's Roll!" stuff has always rang so
"Wag the Dog" off key. Like a BAD screenwiter
cooked it up.

[applegrove]

8. The Jets that were scrambled had only gun fire and no side-winder

missiles. They showed the pilots in only a few scenes. They were nowhere near the plane. But they were told to shoot down the plane with gun-fire and if that didn't work - to kamekazi (the pilots suggested that was the only alternative).

Really - that plane was in the air with 45 minutes of phone calls about 3 other jets being suicided. It showed people struggling to hope they would land - and then struggling as the realized the bomb was not real (all other planes had no bombs - they just flew into buildings) and that they were a human missile.

The end result - people trying to overtake the cabin - is the thinking anyone would have had after 45 minutes. They knew.

And apparently they waited until they were over a rural area to do it.

There isn't much on that day which is hopeful and humanity affirming. That flight was in the end. I'm sorry you miss out on it.

In the end - human beings feel a great amount of love for other human beings. And here was 45 people who did just that. It is actually a very human story.

[TomInTib]

10. "45 minutes of phone calls"? Try using your cell phone next time

you are in the air.
Can't be done over about 1500 feet.

[appolonios of tyana]

19. 1500 Feet??? Is that just.....

A magical number that you picked from a a hat? Most cell phones can make & receive calls at cruising altitude. The use of cell phones isn't banned on an air carrier because they won't work..Hence the need for a banishment.

The main reason behind the prohibition is due to possible electrical interference & and the fact that when you are cruising at 25,000 ft. A cell phone signal from thousands of feet above ground can be picked up by dozens of towers, causing them to block, drop calls, or "Jam" the towers below. This is why most cell phone manufacturers have a "Airplane" mode or feature.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/20040716-9999-1n16phones.html

As a matter of fact, The FCC is debating whether or not to allow in flight mobile or cellular calls
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html

So, again....where did this 1500 Feet number come from?

[TomInTib]

34. typo. I meant 15000. That's the highest any of mine work.

And I have had quite a few.
I do see another post where someone claims they received text at 37000 ft. I am going to get whatever phone they have.

[benEzra]

63. After being hijacked, the plane was flying VERY low...

not at cruise altitude. Cell phones would work.

Remember, people on the other planes called loved ones also.

[JMDEM]

86. References?

Why would the plane be flying very low after being hijacked?

[GregW]

20. Sure you can!

Last time I flew back from the East Coast I received a text message at ~ 37000 feet over Rochester.

[WinkyDink]

23. Are text--messages the same thing?

I have no clue.

[appolonios of tyana]

27. Yes..

Yes, Text messages are the same thing. The text message is sent via whatever data source you cell company uses for voice/data transmissions. Most common are CDMA (Code devised multiple access) which is commonly Verizon & alltel & most "Bell" companies. There is also TDMA (Time devised multiple access) Which used to be AT&T. However, Now AT&T (Cingular) has switched to GSM (Global System for Mobile Communications) which is one of the most widely used technologies world wide.

So, in short. Yes, Voice & data transmissions are carried over the same "channel" if you will.

[DS1]

11. Save for the white corporate jet that was reported flying very

low over houses in PA moments before the first boom was heard, and then of course the second boom of the actual impact.

Not that this event was reported ever again.

Engines don't bounce.


I'm not saying that they weren't heroes, I'm just saying the Gov't shot them down when they realized this 'event' they'd allowed to happen had suddenly become WAY more than they'd intended.

[underpants]

28. (the not LIHOP MIHOP crowd responds) I thought is was a C-130

I could have sworn that I read that a C-130 was spotted.

In the movie it was a single engine plane that the 757 just missed. The Feds in black suits showed up and the firemen told them they could find anything. The Feds said "This was a 757 a big plane" the fireman said "I know but we still can't find anything"-I thought that was a nod to conspiracy theorists.

Finally-if it were shot down wouldn't it have been because the operation had gone far enough. That they had achieved everything they need to and so they called it off-no need to destroy the White House or the Capital they need somewhere to rip apart the Constitution.

[applegrove]

45. You know it was the trolls who were putting forward the 9/11 conspiracy

theories? Most Democratic forums banned them so they would not take naive and hurt liberals with them.

[underpants]

60. They did?

That's interesting.

I don't subscribe to LIHOP or MIHOP simply because I refuse to. Better ways to spend your time and your energy. I think anyone who brings such a thing up in conversation immediately looks like a nut.

That is why I don't subscribe to it....those are the only reasons I don't.

I do think that as we get further away people are starting to see that it is pretty ridiculous to give W credit for what happened that day (while also trying to blame Clinton or the CIA or whomever the newest NOT W is).

[applegrove]

61. There was a pattern of trolls stiring the pot. Air America banned them.

Other sites too.

Remember after the 2004 election how gleefully the freeper trolls got online and tried to extend and spread the pain?

Assholes.

[Ciggies and coffee]

70. What conspiracy theories?

Insight appreciated!













Time for another smoke

[JMDEM]

87. References?

This seems like a blanket statement to me. I've never heard of such a thing.

[eve_was_framed]

66. I picked up on that dialog too and got the same impression.

[applegrove]

44. I don't know that most big jets that hit the ground are going so

fast they could break up in the air. I don't think that has happened very often. They were flying so fast - they were over the line for structural integrity. Don't think the nuts slowed down.

[LondonReign2]

39. Errr, ummmmm....

...are you suggested that what you saw on TV was accurate??? You really think the passengers consciously waited until they were "over a rural area"?

[applegrove]

46. All those phone calls? Are you saying the WH swooped down and

convinced the families to lie in the middle of grief?

[Beaverhausen]

3. I happened upon the last 10 minutes and was sobbing

They really were heroes.
:patriot:

[BushOut06]

16. If you believe what the government tells you, sure

Personally, I dont know quite what to believe. However, I have a feeling it wasn't quite the way it was portrayed. Americans want to believe in heroes, so we were spoon-fed this story to make us feel good about something.

[Beaverhausen]

22. Do you think our government is able to react to anything that quickly?

to really have sent jets and shoot it down? Not likely.

I do believe that the passengers did try to overtake the plane. Whether or not that is why it crashed doesn't really interest me. They were trying to save other people.

[BushOut06]

30. That's why I'm not quite sure what to believe

I think it's entirely possible that those passengers did take down the plane. I've also seen reports that the terrorists deliberately crashed the plane in order to avoid being overrun. Either way, I have a feeling that the actual events on the plane didn't quite follow along with the script from the movie.

BTW - is this the same movie that was on one of the Discovery/Health channels a few months ago?

[Beaverhausen]

35. Well- even though there is no way to know what exactly happened

there is no doubt that the passengers on that plane went through 45 minutes of hell. They deserve to be remembered just as everyone who died at the WTC and Pentagon are.

I think this was a new film. The older one you mentioned- wasn't that more of a documentary? Where they re-enacted some of it but also had interviews with those who were on the end of the cell phone calls? I watched part of that one too.

[LaPera]

72. Nicely timed & complete bullshit-for Bush's fear-mongering & lying speech!

[applegrove]

47. Government reacted slowly with Jets. They didn't have a plan for

internal attack so Jets took a bit to be scrambled. Pilots not at standby. Why they never caught up with them. Canadian Jets caught up with Korean airlines but that was hours into the whole disaster and the Korean Jet was diverted thousands of miles north to an airport in Yellowknife or the Northwest Territories. The Jets in the bases in Alberta are half way north already. Of course they would have caught up. Nothern Alberta is where our jets play & practice.

This Flight 93 was going very fast. So fast their was grave danger of it breaking up. It was flying at speeds beyond its spects.

Jet's never caught up. And Jets had to scramble to get off the ground so fast they were not armed with missiles.

I don't doubt that a plane going faster than any jet before when it hit the ground had a crash pattern that was unusual. Earth doesn't take impact. Most of the energy on the parts of the jet would still be on the parts after it hit the ground.

[frylock]

56. jets were not armed with missiles..

if that's what you were told in the movie, then you may want to rethink your endorsement of this faery tale:

At the time, there were two F-16s armed with air-to-air missiles within 60 miles of Flight 93. But the fighters were still out of missile range when the jetliner crashed, sources said.

Feds Would Have Shot Down Pa. Jet

[applegrove]

62. There you go. They said they didn't have side-winders. Maybe

those are long distance. Don't know.

[rman]

69. On the contrary

Standard procedure in case of irregularities such as deviating from flight plan without explanation, turning off of transponder, is to scramble jets to make contact with the offending airplane.

Because contrary to what Condi would have us believe, they did know an attack such as 9-11 was possible. Various government agencies war conducting multiple exercises for just that on sept 11 2001.


The War Games of September 11th
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/11/war-games-of-september-11th.html
On the very morning of 9/11/01, five war games and terror drills were being conducted by several U.S. defense agencies, including one "live fly" exercise using REAL planes. Then-Acting Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Richard B. Myers, admitted to 4 of the war games in congressional testimony -- see transcript here or video here (6 minutes and 12 seconds into the video).
http://www.spiegltech.com/media/McKinney2.rm (C-SPAN footage)

[LaPera]

81. Well put! n/t

[Mr Rabble]

89. You are totally wrong.

The government has a very specific plan to deal with EXACTLY this type of attack. In fact, there were simulations being run on the morning of 9/11 concerning exactly this event. Some coincidence, huh?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[INDIA]

24. OH man! You believe the government????

Get out of here freeper!!!:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[applegrove]

48. There is multiple evidence from people outside the government. You

are ignoring those heroes last calls. As related to all of us by the grieving families of those aboard.

[WinkyDink]

7. Proof?

how can anyone believe anything about this day?

[applegrove]

12. Two jets were scrambled in Canada and were given permission to

shoot down a Korean airlines with a faulty beacon. They followed the jet quite closely for a long time. Till it landed.

US jets were nowhere near.

Makes sense that they didn't have the time to arm missiles. US was not preprared for an attacking coming from within on that day.

[eve_was_framed]

64. I find that hard to believe.

[applegrove]

85. What? That the Canadian Jet had radio contact with the PM's office -

in case the Korean airline stopped following directions?

PM also made all the US flights land in cities with few office towers (when he could). Why all the jets landed in places in the Maritimes on the east coast. Where the small towns and cities had a hell of a time trying to house them.

Gander got 40 jets at least. Population 10,000. PM was making a decision that if one of said jets was going to turn into a bomb and attack the civilians on the ground - he would do it in ways that would result in minimum damage to life. No office towers. Many landed at Halifax airport - 45 minutes drive from the city of Halifax (400,000) but with at least one air base in between.

Toronto could have put up all of the passengers in swanky hotels. They ended up in arenas in the maritimes. And if they were lucky - in people's homes. They were not concerned with convinience on that day. Just that all jets landed on the ground as safe as possible and as far away from civilians & cities.

[Wilms]

9. Hey! Don't forget Jessica Lynch. She WAS a hero, too.

Problem was, she lived to tell that it was all a bunch of BS.

[DKStreet]

13. It may have been good drama...

but don't confuse it in any way with actual events. The families were forced to sign non-disclsoure forms in order to be allowed to listen to the black box tapes. The people who know for sure what happened aren't that plane can't or won't talk.

Personally, I think the plane was shot down, I've always thought that. And no, I have no facts, but I have just as many as A&E does, so I can make up my own drama.

on edit, I meant plane not plan, but the plan may have been shot down too.

[IndianaGreen]

14. Exactly, we don't know what happened

instead we are being fed the mythology the Bush dictatorship wants us to believe.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

15. That movie drove me bonkers.

I don't know why. I just didn't like it. It didn't affect me, really.

I guess I'm just a heartless bitch..... :cry::cry:

[applegrove]

49. If you don't believe the reports of phone calls - I could see that. It was

very sad.

[leveymg]

17. NEWSWEEK: Cheney gave the shoot-down order

Thought that detail might be omitted. This from Newsweek (06/28/2004):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5251871/site/newsweek/
Who Was Really In Charge?

Did Bush know Cheney had given orders to down airliners on September 11? The commission staff wonders—and remains at odds with both men over alleged Saddam-Al Qaeda ties.

By Daniel Klaidman and Michael Hirsh
Newsweek
June 28, 2004 issue - America was under attack, and somebody had to make a decision. Dick Cheney, huddled in the Presidential Emergency Operations Center under the White House, had just urged the traveling George W. Bush not to return to Washington. The president had left Florida aboard Air Force One at 9:55 a.m. on 9/11 "with no destination at take-off," as last week's 9-11 Commission report noted. Nor had Bush given any known instructions on how to respond to the attacks. Now Cheney faced another huge decision on a morning in which every minute seemed monumental. The two airliners had already crashed into the Twin Towers, another into the Pentagon. Combat air patrols were aloft, and a military aide was asking for shoot-down authority, telling Cheney that a fourth plane was "80 miles out" from Washington. Cheney didn't flinch, the report said. "In about the time it takes a batter to decide to swing," he gave the order to shoot it down, telling others the president had "signed off on the concept" during a brief phone chat. When the plane was 60 miles out, Cheney was again informed and again he ordered: take it out.

[Lars39]

33. ***Thanks for posting that.***

[applegrove]

50. Prime Minister Chretien was on standby with the fighter pilots in Canada

to give the shoot down order. That would be expected.

In one scene - they did show the control talking to the pilots. And asking them how they were prepared to skuttle the plane. One pilot set "we didn't have time to load side-winders - we just have guns" (or something) and then said "I suppose - if is necesarry to more than disable the jet - we could crash into it".

Government wasn't there. The people were. They did what they had to - given the same information the government had at the time..which were news reports.

[warrens]

18. It's more likely they were shot down

But even if it's a myth, it's a good one, in that I doubt a plane could ever be hijacked again because the passengers would just figure they're dead either way, so might as well try to take the plane back.

[Ksec]

21. saw it too.

Very moving. I cant imagine talking on a cell to a loved one , knowing it would be the last time. I was choked up all through that movie.

[applegrove]

51. yup. I hope the families and those Americans who needed it got

a humanity boost from it. It was cathartic.

[underpants]

25. I thought it was very moving. It took me back to that horrible day

Only this time I knew what was coming.


As far as the screenplay-that is just about how I imagined it.

THe hair on the back of my neck was up for most of the whole movie and I cried several times.

[BushOut06]

42. Cue up Toby Keith's "Have you Forgotten"

I'm not putting down what happened on that plane. But the timing of the movie does seem a little too coincidental. I know damned well what happened that day, I don't need emotional movies or documentaries to remind me. Tug at everyone's heart, remind them why they need Big Daddy Bush to protect them and take away their freedoms.

Yeah, I'm a little cynical I guess ;)

[underpants]

43. I didn't say anything about Bush

I didn't even think about that useless POS that day.

I do remember waiting to see him come on TV. Wondering what he was going to say. To see if he would apologize for dropping the ball so horribly (mind you this was before we knew about all the ball dropping that they did). What I saw was someone who looked scared out of his wits and like he had been crying all day. Not crying in sadness but crying in a balled up in the corner wetting his pants kinda way.

[blm]

26. And just COINCIDED with the new WH ad campaign for NSA spying and Patriot

Act renewal, starring the pilot's sister?

Does anyone believe in THAT coincidence?

[Jara sang]

29. What do you mean blm?

"the pilot's sister"?

[blm]

31. Debora Burlingame is the star of WH's new ad campaign for Patriot Act.

She is the sister of the pilot on flight 93. She also spoke at the GOP convention.

She claims the domestic NSA spying would have made a difference.

[Jara sang]

37. Thanks for that. Wasn't aware of her.

:thumbsup:

[frylock]

58. Does anyone believe in THAT coincidence?

no doubt. Plenty of coincidence theorists around here.

[ronnykmarshall]

32. It was very sad.

I noticed a few interesting things.

1. When they saw the security at the airport, some of the people looked they were:

a. Bored
b. Not paying attention
c. Didn't give a damn

2. There was a slight hint of the White House having it's head up it's ass. There were army big poops that were getting pissed that there was no order to shoot down the highjacked plane(s).

[applegrove]

53. I agree. It showed clearly - people figuring it out themselves and

doing the best thing they could.

[Jara sang]

36. "...saved a thousand lives"?

Proof?

[applegrove]

54. It didn't go down in a civilized area. It didn't go down in a city. We

know it went down very fast. How big a footprint would that have been if it had crashed in suburbia (which it flew over for a bit) or a city?

[Jara sang]

67. Where are you getting that number from?

Out of your ass?

[applegrove]

71. Didn't the remains of the jet appear in an 8mile radius? You think

a jet engine part going 400 miles an hour is not going to make it through a few homes?

[truebrit71]

76. It "crashed" in the middle of a field...not too many homes there...

...if a plane is flown straigh into the ground by the passengers, how in the hell did the wreckage wind up spread out over 8 miles?

[kath]

82. Exactly - a plane crashing into the ground does NOT leave debris

over an 8-sq-mile area.

[applegrove]

83. Usually they have not speeded up to speeds at which structural

damage could have occured. Most domestic airlines have never seen speeds like that.

This one did.

[applegrove]

84. Energy is transfered. If it cannot go into the ground - it changes

direction.

Someone asked me why I said 1000 were saved by the Flight 93 passengers watching and waiting to attack the cabin - until they were in a mostly rural area.

[pocket]

38. bullshit propaganda

glad you enjoyed it.

Let's roll.

[Beaverhausen]

40. Passengers trying to overtake the plane & the plane being shot down aren't

...mutually exclusive. They could have both happened.

Just because the plane was eventually shot down - or the hijackers crashed it before it's intended target - doesn't lessen what the passengers did or tried to do.

And another thing...
Why are so many people who didn't watch this film criticizing it?

[LaPera]

73. You took a poll? Complete Hollywood type fabrication & bullshit!!!

It's why the Bush administration and republicans love the movie so...

But then, most here also believe in the tooth-fairy!!!

Why don't people study and investigate it for themselves instead of being told, 'what really happened"? And making stupid quotes from a propaganda movie they just watched...put on right before Bush's speech, to keep people in fear/

What sheep!!!

[npincus]

41. hmm... broadcast timing designed to tug at America's heartstrings

and whip up the masses to an anti-terrorist fervor on the eve of Chimpy's Screetch of the Union... plays right into Rove and Chimpy's playbook, doesn't it?

[applegrove]

55. Oh - I think the overwhelming message of those heroes & the movie

was love. Love of mankind. Love of family. The first is not the message Bush pushes on any given day.

[ronnykmarshall]

57. Oh please .... it was on TNT for crying out loud!!

It's not like it was a fucking block buster.

[applegrove]

59. Really. Question is asked why now? Why so long after 9/11? Well

first there was an investigation, then the WH stalling the investigation. Then the 9/11 report. Then the families would likely have had access to all the intel. Then a script would be written. Timing is actually perfect with the close of the 9/11 comission (at least part of it) for the movie to be produced.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LaPera]

77. Was this movie made from government facts or government lies?

I keep getting deleted for trying to offer an opposing view and I get no reply as to why...So I'm simply asking do you feel the film was propaganda using BushCo lies or not?

[The Magistrate]

78. Here Is The Rule, Sir

"Posts about so-called "conspiracy theories" are not permitted on Democratic Underground, except in the September 11 forum."


"Do not quote or link to "conspiracy theory" websites, except in our September 11 forum, which is the only forum on Democratic Underground where we permit members to debate highly speculative conspiracy theories. A reasonable person should be able to identify a conspiracy theory website without much difficulty."

[vireo]

79. Where is Sept. 11 forum?

I can't seem to find it.

[LaPera]

80. Thank you Madam, for your prompt response. Sorry, I will offer only

government "facts"... being the extremely "reasonable person" that I am!

Question: Is then, ONLY the official government "facts", are allowed as being reasonable and facts?

The government lies about every possible occurrence and situation and those are to me just as suspect, unreliable, untruthful, conspiratorial, and bullshit propaganda, that we must accept as NOT being the government’s version of a "conspiracy theory"?

Again, why is the government completely and acceptably off the hook with their explanation of suspect and improvable "facts" as to not being a "conspiracy theory" as well?

[JMDEM]

88. Didn't the timing of this show make anyone suspicious?

I mean geez... running the day before, and the day of the SOTU speech, where you know that Bush is going to be saying "9/11" about 500 times?

[Moderator]

90. Locking

...