I wonder how Ralph Nader feels knowing Alito would not be on the court...

[wakemewhenitsover]

...if he hadn't insisted there's no difference between the Democratic and the Republican parties?

[mrbill]

1. if a frog had wings..............

his butt wouldn't drag the ground when he jumped.

[artemisia1]

2. You're beating a dead and decayed horse. /nt

[artemisia1]

3. You're beating a dead and decayed horse. /nt

[Fridays Child]

4. Aren't you shooting the messenger?

I'm no Nader apologist but the fact that he turned out to be right about some Democratic senators isn't his fault.

[malaise]

10. One day Dems will realize

that Ralph was correct about a lot of things.

[KT2000]

17. The solution was not

running in that election.
Of course he was right about many things but ensuring the Republicans win to prove himself correct was not wise.
I am left with the impression that Nader is a strict ideologue in the fundamentalists sense. He is lacking true empathy for people.

[mdmc]

40. This is America

The "solution" was for the DLC to court progressive and liberals "back" (why did they ever leave) to the democrats. The "solution" is for progressives and liberals to vote for the DLC, not for progressive third parties.

The "solution: is not to ban third parties, or "blame" them for DLC loses when progressives voted for the third party. This is freedom. Voters (such as myself) decided to vote for Nader, at the risk of enabling Bush.

In 2004, Nader ran, but voters went for Kerry instead. Jah can't really blame Nader, you can only blame the stay at home voters and the gop voters.
Attacking progressives will do nothing to help the DLC in 2006 or 2008.

Nader and his voters are strict progressive liberal ideologues. They know that whoever gets elected is going to be pro-death penalty, pro drug war, pro Iraq war. If the candidate is DLC or GOP really does not matter.

[MoJoWorkin]

44. Sorry, but Gore would NOT have chosen Roberts or Alito.

Nor would there have been an Iraq War. Our world would not be in this nightmare if Gore had been allowed to be the duly elected President.


I DO still think that Nader and his ilk share the blame, along with the week kneed Dems who would not stand and be counted.

[BigYawn]

103. But Saddam would still be building his WMD's

<not>

[DaveinMD]

100. No he was not

he was a spoiler who handed the white house to Bush and gave us two right wing supreme court justices. There was a major difference despite Nader's lies.

[zanne]

113. We're not saying he wasn't right about alot of things.

Most of us here happen to agree with Nader's positions. What we really, intensely dislike about him is that by remaining a candidate in 2000, even though he knew he didn't have a chance of winning, he stayed on the ballot. He may as well have campaigned for George Bush, because he helped him win. Ralph isn't a stupid man--he knew what he was doing and for that, he lost alot of support.

[GreenPartyVoter]

117. But there will stil be plenty who won't.

[mdmc]

36. Oh, snap!

I like your handle... Why did you choose it?

Peace!

[Fridays Child]

67. Thanks.

It's a reference to the poem, The Birth Days: "Monday's child is fair of face...." I was born on a Friday. :)

[mdmc]

70. I was just reading that poem in a dead anthology....

[mzmolly]

145. The fact that HE was wrong about Gore and the Supreme Court IS his fault.

I say if the messenger is the dead reaper - shoot him! ;)


BTW, Democrats at BEST could have DELAYED the Alito nomination, that's how it works when Dems are the minority Party.

[moondust]

5. Ralph is just glad he could help.

And he'd again like to thank the many Republicans who donated to his campaign.

[leftstreet]

6. Oh please. Ross Perot gave us Clinton.

Who in turn gave us Ginsburg and Breyer.

Sorry, but you can't pin Bush's election on Nader.

[TheWraith]

8. Yes, we can.

[leftstreet]

11. Yeah. He got such a HUGH percentage of the votes

:eyes:

[Kickin_Donkey]

19. Just enough to keep Bush close in Florida so he could steal it ...

that's all that was needed.

[leftstreet]

23. LOL! Florida was probably fixed before Ralph was even born!

:rofl:

Do not question the Bush Family Evil Empire.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

25. You're oddly enjoying this.

[mdmc]

42. DLC Dem's can't get enough of the Nader blame!

If all it took was banning progressive liberal third party candidates from running in elections for the DLC to win, then "banning / blaming" Nader would be a solution.

The problem was that progressive liberals in swing states cared more about their "beliefs" then they did about making sure the lesser of two evils won an election.

Are we blaming Nader for Kerry's loss too?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

51. To pretend Nader played no part in what's going on is as silly

as pretending it's all his fault. What I don't get is how you
Naderites can get such a kick out of what's going on. Seems
perverse.

[mdmc]

59. I don't get that either, A-schwarzenegger

for me it is about assigning Nader 3.47% of the blame, then MOVEON! Why did liberals and progressive in swing states vote for Nader? How can the DLC correct this crack?

In 2004 I supported Dean, voted for Kucinich. I was satisfied with liberal John Kerry, but not with the campaign. Nader seemed to play little or no part in Kerry's defeat. I voted for Kerry in my blue state. In 1996 and 2000 I voted for Nader.

So the DLC (or maybe it was Bush and his PNAC) was able to get me back on board, voting with the party. Can the DLC actually oppose the GOP, or is it too late?

[mdmc]

41. We can blame anyone we want for 2000

I blame Bono, of U2. Can't blame the DLC, they bare no responsibility.

[funflower]

18. You can pin it on Nader voters in Florida. If those people had stayed

with the party, Bush v. Gore would never have happened.

[Lorien]

21. Nonsense. I watched in 2000 as police intimidated black voters

tried to shut polling places down early in Dem strongholds, and forced church buses to unload poor African American voters before arriving at the polling places, saying it was because the drivers didn't have a "taxi license".

I didn't hear about this happening. I saw it, and reported it to the media. The only person who wrote about my eyewitness account was Greg Palast of the BBC.

[funflower]

22. We have to hang together or we will surely hang separately.

True in 1776. True today.

[leftstreet]

24. So...uh...why didn't they stay with "the party?"

[mdmc]

45. "those" people were never with the DLC

They opposed Clinton too! The DLC didn't do a good job triangulating without the Big Dog's charisma!

[funflower]

79. Good thing they don't have to worry about any DLCers running the country.

The RNC is more than happy to run the world.

[Andromeda]

87. We have a lot to thank Nader for...

Not a single day goes by under King George's rule that I don't kiss the ground and thank the Deity for the usurper in the White House.

I don't know what I would have done without increased global warming or contaminated beef.

Our allies have turned against us, 5000 new jobs have been created today---in India, and Ford has layed off thousands of workers, but not to worry---they can always get work at McDonalds.

Thanks, Mr. Nader.

[Clarkansas]

98. Perot stole equally from Bush and Clinton.

That's what I found in the exit polls I looked at. Let me know if you want me to dig them up.

I really regret voting for Nader in 2000, and he was very very wrong about the differences between Bush and Gore, and Bush and Kerry.

[paulk]

114. true - you can post this a million times

I could also link to the polls showing that Perot didn't have the effect of winning the
election for Clinton, as is so often claimed. I've done it many times, here at DU.

But, it won't matter. People with an idealogical axe to grind aren't interested in the truth,
no matter which side of the aisle they stand on.

[Hippo_Tron]

146. Exit polls say you are wrong

Perot voters split evenly between Clinton, Bush, and stay home. Nader voters went largely for Gore.

That being said, re-hatching the election of 2000 is just pointless.

[Wilms]

7. I don't know about Ralph, but Joe Lieberman must be pleased.

He turned off so many on the left in 2000 that it made it possible for Alito to recieve his votes.

[Moochy]

9. In my day we had to walk uphill

both ways to cast our vote for Gore. Then that Nader, he made my baby dingo cry.

Then Baby Panda heard about it, and told baby Jesus. Then He cried.

[AtomicKitten]

12. and when Bush TOOK office, I cried.

[CrazyForKucinich]

13. Joe Lieberman lost 2000

And the Supreme Court. Nuff said.

[Lindacooks]

14. I'm with you. Somebody should ask Ralph.

The asshole.

Edited for spelling and because it's 3:30 am

[KT2000]

15. Think of Ralph often

over these years - the Iraq War and the thousands who have died, global warming steaming ahead and now the Right Wing Supreme Court for decades to come.

He played a game with that election and I feel he needs to share some of the responsibility for this new nightmare that is America.

[mdmc]

47. well said

"some resonsibility". About 3.47% to be exact. 96% of the blame goes to the DLC and GOP.

[Peter Frank]

16. Fuck Nader & What He Thinks...

If he had a conscience -- he wouldn't have taken votes from Gore & allowed the PNAC cabal to take over.

[mdmc]

48. the more things change, the more they stay the same. We

can't grow if we don't critize ourselves.

[JI7]

20. Nader says Gore is better out of office

that should tell you how he feels.

[gordontron]

76. what? please provide a citation for that nt

[EST]

26. Pretending that Nader was somehow responsible

for the obvious theft of the 2000 election is a subject I usually leave alone, figuring the author of such a complaint is naive, ill informed, or wanting to start a fight.
Nader is and was exactly correct. At the level where one man or woman is equal to 700,000 of us (the house) of millions and millions of us (each senator from California can be said to represent 17,000,000,) there is very little difference between those whose names end in (R) or (D).
It wasn't Nader who made the difference in that long ago election, it was the people who voted for him! The assumption that both dems and reps were equally bad was a very common one. The people who voted for Nader were those who evinced a concern for this country, who knew that simply putting another empty shirt into the top office in the land was not going to uplift the downtrodden, was not going to fix the ills of a sick, disillusioned public.

If Al Gore had not been forced to go through the disappointment and anger at seeing his beloved country go down the tubes, his own name besmirched and dragged through the gutter of r/w press, would he have transformed himself from the cocky, arrogant, appeal-to-the-gods whuffing nobody, on stage in 2000, to the fire breathing force for good he is, today? I think not!

Nobody, except the republican pols, the power brokers, and the intelligentsia had any notion of the ease with which our ponderous garbage truck of state could be so defiled and misdirected into the most hated monster of the entire world. Never would we have realized that the mounting toll of a hundred years of cynical policy had very nearly destroyed the world and had been responsible for a death toll that NAZI Germany would have been proud of.

Nader was right. The voters who supported him were right. Had we been nearly as well informed as we are right now, perhaps we would have all been behind him, fighting to correct and heal the damage that have been inflicted on this country and the world by the selfish, ill conceived policies of business as usual government.

I did not vote for Nader. I wish I had.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

27. Yeah, thanks, Ralph, you brought out the real Al Gore!

"If Al Gore had not been forced to go through the disappointment and anger at seeing his beloved country go down the tubes, his own name besmirched and dragged through the gutter of r/w press, would he have transformed himself from the cocky, arrogant, appeal-to-the-gods whuffing nobody, on stage in 2000, to the fire breathing force for good he is, today? I think not!"

Laughed till I cried.

[mdmc]

60. I like the new Al Gore!

Thanks Ralph!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

74. Hey, he only gets 3.47% of the credit.

[funflower]

81. That whuffing nobody got more votes than anybody else in 2000.

A few more in the right places and things would have been a lot different.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

84. EST called Gore a "whuffing nobody."

I was quoting EST.
Just in case you were confused.

[funflower]

85. Whoops. Sorry. It's late. He's not a whuffing nobody.

He's the next President of the United States!

[CanSocDem]

28. Good post !!

"Nader was right. The voters who supported him were right. Had we been nearly as well informed as we are right now, perhaps we would have all been behind him, fighting to correct and heal the damage that have been inflicted on this country and the world by the selfish, ill conceived policies of business as usual government."

Posts like this show me that the USA still has a chance.....

[EST]

29. Thanks

[JustJoe]

31. "I did not vote for Nader. I wish I had."

Why didn't you?

[EST]

35. I felt that, although his "anybody but the two party

entrenched establishment" was correct, his grasp of the minutiae and interest in same did not bode well for his career in a job wherein a thorough understanding of those minutiae as well as foreign policy are so vitally important. Also, I was convinced he would have zero cooperation from the legislative branch, given his "outsider" credentials.
A principled stand is a good place to start, but the business of government requires much more.

[MoJoWorkin]

46. Shame on you!

[mdmc]

63. awesome

very well spoken...

peace and low stress...

[anitar1]

30. Nader? who is that? n/t

[ikojo]

32. Another let's blame Nader thread...what about all those

so called dems who voted for Bush in 2000...what about a supine congress and senate who have gone along with the bush agenda because they are afraid of being labeled "unpatriotic?"

Nader did what every native born american citizen has a right to do....he put his hat out there and ran for president. No party has a right to your vote, they must EARN it and right now the dems have a lot of earning to do.

[Disturbed]

33. Nader was right.

Al Gore was a weak candidate who couldn't even win his own state. The bush Cabal cheated and trashed the election process. Some Dem precinct head screwed up the ballots. The SC selected GWB. There are a whole slew of reasons that the Neo Fascists are now in power. Nadar is not one of those. Blaming Nadar for what has transpired is pure foolishness.

[MoJoWorkin]

52. Yes you are "disturbed"

The reason Gore couldn't "win" his own state(also his state had become more conservative than ever since the last had to run there) was that he couldn't devote the time to it and some others because he had to keep going back to the states that would have been easy wins, like WA, MN, etc., if it were not for Nader being in the mix.
Also, if there had not been Nader on the ballot in FL, it would not have been close enough to steal.

Sorry, Nader must SHARE the blame along with the spineless Dems who would not stand and be counted in the Senate, when only Maxine Waters and the Congressional Black Caucus spoke out for the fact that Gore won and we should fight.

I will NEVER forgive Nader or the spineless Democrats who have let our country sink into this abyss! There are still some good Democrats, and we have seen who they are. I do NOT count Hillary in that bunch, even tho she voted for the filibuster. Anyone who voted for the Iraq war resolution is also FOREVER on my NEVER forgive list. I am no Rhodes scholar, but I knew from the beginning that they were lying thru their teeth, and those Democratic Senators did too, or they were not smart or able enough to be there in the first place.

Oh, and let's not forget to also give the Media its fair share of blame for this nightmare, and the American public---many of whom don't care enough for their children's future,or their fellow human beings, but only about their current gratification.

[mdmc]

34. God Bless Nader

At least the Greens have principles! Show where the great DLC stands on principle! Sure, things would have been better if the DLC won in 2000. Sure, things will be better if the DLC picks up the house and the senate in 2006. Sure, things will get better in 2008 if the DLC wins...

We will still be in Iraq.
We will still fight a drug war.
We will still use capital punishment.

In 2008, I hope the DLC gets Gore teamed up with Hillary, or Kerry with someone that compliments him (Edwards contradicted him).

As a liberal progressive, I know that Nader speaks the truth. Neo-cons are evil, war profiteering is illegal, and the DLC enables all.

Go Joe Lieberman in 2008 (better than McCain, right)!

[philosophie_en_rose]

37. This should be interesting.

:popcorn:

[ComerPerro]

38. Would he care?

[bpilgrim]

39. Scape Goat, the people actually in power never seem to take responsibility

and like children look for anyone but themselves to blame for their failures.

another good example of what is wrong with our party today.

Obama blames Dem's to at the exclusion of himself :eyes:

mp3...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/aar/mr/obama.mp3

peace

[KG]

53. gee, who didin't this thread coming? like clockwork, whenever the dems

cave in to the repooks, someone posts a thread blaming it on ralph.








(kinda reminds me of the lame way freeptards blame everything on the bill clinton.)

[fujiyama]

58. I hatte to admit it

but I think you'rer right. It's an incredible sign of immaturity to not take any responsibility.

That's why I hatet Nader for not admitting any responsibility for his lies in '00.

But I seriously must agree that Nader is being used aas a scapegoat by some over tthe failures of the Dem party. THere is something wrongn when you can't seem to manage aa 'party line' vote on anything...At this point I don't even know whhaht a party votee is because it's meaeningless. I almost always automatically taake NNelson to be a repuke turncoat.

That lack of displine is not Nadere's fault.

[KG]

43. maybe my memory is faulty, but wasn't there another national election

since 2000? what's ralph got to do with kerry losing in 2004?

really, it's time for whiney dems to start looking in the mirror for the real reasons they are totally out of power, and stop blaming ralph.

[mdmc]

50. Ralph caused Kerry to lose too!

Cause he ran in 2000...then 9-11... then the DLC supported Bush.... then... but... but...

"We can't grow if we don't criticize ourselves."

[GOPNotForMe]

49. Sure he siphoned some Democratic votes away, but come on

If Al Gore couldn't beat Dubya himself in 2000, that's his fault and only his fault. I really do like Al, especially since he got the spinal transplant a couple years ago. However, that election was his to lose. Dubya was a joke at the time. I still can't believe how horribly he campaigned. I'm glad SOMEONE is pointing out the flaws of a two-party system and the current corporate interests that are present in BOTH.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

54. Nader got 90,000 votes in FL. Think 600 of those would have gone to gore?

Gore won Florida but there would be no Supreme Court theft if Nader didn't run. Nader is a filthy scumbag.

[G_j]

56. in my years at DU

this selective obsession is the one thing that absolutely depresses me more than anything else. Thanks for the reminder... NOT

[jonnyblitz]

62. it's as bad as freepers blaming CLinton for everything still

years later.

[mdmc]

71. Why didn't 600 greens go to Gore?

Why did they feel the need to do this? "We can't grow if we don't criticize ourselves."

[The Magistrate]

80. It Would Seem, Sir

Those "Greens" who need to learn to criticize themselves, and accept responsibility for the consequence of their actions....

[fujiyama]

55. i wonder how I feel knowing these stupid threads pop up every other day

Oh tthat's right, I feel sick and tired.

Nader is irrelevant. He is pond scum. I don't like him and I think he's a liar. But hhe's old news. I'm sick of threads which defeend him and those thahat attack him over whaht could have been. He's used as a scapegoatt by several for failures of tthhe Dem party.

Here's another meaningless hypothetical question thatat can't be realistically answered. What if Clinton didnn't get a blow job? Maaybe
Gore would have picked up 'values voters' in TN and other places and won...

All I know is thahat there are senators in our party that don't have our interests at heart. Several have constaantly defected to thhe other side. That's not Nadere's fault in anyway. As far as I know, none of the 25 that voted for cloture were named Raalp Nader.

[DanCa]

57. I hear Nader is living on the banks of a river in egypt called denial.

I wouldn't blame the Democrats if they were to go on strike at all levels of the government. How dare the greens and libs complain about how much the court is shifting to the right. Hell I am sick and tired of my party playing constant clean up and taking endless abuse.

[Karmadillo]

61. I wonder how Bill Cllinton feels knowing he traded sex for

a right wing Presidency and a right wing Supreme Court?

[QC]

66. Bill Clinton's Penis!!! Bill Clinton's Penis!!! n/t

[Andromeda]

88. It's the CLENIS!

[mdmc]

72. don't say that!

[karynnj]

93. Why not?

There's a lot of truth to it. The Republicans already were painting themselves as the party of moral values. Clinton gave them exactly what they needed. I have relatives who voted for Dole and Bush, because of this. It didn't matter that Gore and Kerry were boy scouts compared to Bush.

I would venture that Clinton's Monica baggage cost Gore as much as Nader did. So, blaming either of them is equally fair. (Clinton's successes are what Gore ran on though - so Clinton wasn't just a negative - BUT without Monica, you would still have the positive and you wouldn't have that negative.

An additional way it hurt was that it led to the choice of Lieberman as the vp. One of the weakest moments of the campaign was the VP debate. The year before, at a St Patrick's day breakfast in Boston, Gore gave Kerry a huge shirt with "Kerry 08" written on it. Kerry was clearly a favorite for VP. Imagine Kerry against Cheney. Lieberman couldn't make a man who voted against school lunches, spoke against Nelson Mandella and other pretty extreme RW things seem unlikable. He also made Cheney seem energetic. Gore/Kerry without Clinton's mess would have been a powerful team.

[mdmc]

94. now, don't say THAT.

your truth is hurting me... that hummer hurt the dems much more that nader ever could... Think of the Ray-gun-esque god that Clinton could have been for us... He is still good...

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone_Wolf]

65. Blame the system...

A system that allows a fuckup like Bush to become President is seriously flawed.

[The Stranger]

68. Is Nader a U.S. Senator?

Maybe you should focus on someone who could have actually done something about Alito.

[mac56]

133. Which brings up a very good point.

Why doesn't Ralph run for Senate? Or the House? Or a governorship?

Because IT'S ALL ABOUT RALPH.

Cult of personality.

[samhsarah]

69. "The President's laughing 'cause you voted for Nader".....

Nofx "Franco Un-American"

But you're not laughing now, are you, Nader voters? Way to stand up on your fucking laurels. Fuck Ralph Nader.

[mdmc]

73. God bless Nader and all opposed to the gop+dlc...

[wakemewhenitsover]

75. Wow, I had no idea this was such a sore point.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[radio4progressives]

78. LOL!! Oh Boy Oh Boy ...Let's Blame EVERYTHING on NADER!!

It's all his fault.

[Moochy]

83. Reductio ad Absurdum

If only Bill had stayed clear of Monica, if only Gore had accepted more help from clinton on the campaign trail, if only Reagan had not picked Bush I for VP, if only... Bush Senior had not bet Barbara. IF ONLY!! if only...

If only the election wasn't stolen outright in front of our eyes. Sure there was cheating but that NADER darn him!!

:yoiks:

[The Magistrate]

86. The Problem With That, Sir, Is Simple

Where there is an anomalous result, and an anomalous factor is present, it is generally the cause of the result. Nader was such an anomalous factor.

The other two items operative in Florida, attempts to suppress minority vote and cheating in the count, are dirt normal in elections, always present in some degree. Yet Democratic candidates have carried that state. The anomalous factor was the presence of a left splinter candidate, who gained tens of thousands of votes. Nader's own polling data show that about a quarter of his voters would not have voted at all if he was not running, and of the rest, about a third said they would have voted for the Crawford cowboy otherwise, and about two thirds said they would have voted for Vice-President Gore. This suffices to indicate that the number of votes Vice President Gore would likely have received absent Nader's presence would have sufficed to put the Florida contest beyond the reach of the vote-rigging and intimidation apparatus normally in play there.

The abiding curse of the left is factionalism, as the abiding curse of the right is money corruption. When an effort by either side fails, or a government of either side falls, these things are almost always the cause. We on the left are going to have to learn to overcome this as it affects ourselves. The smaller faction cannot reasonably hope the larger faction will be the one to give way; life does not work like that. It is the smaller faction that will have to accept going along with the larger, if anything is ever to be achieved. And clearly, something must be done....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[radio4progressives]

106. The problem with cognitive dissonance, things have to get worse

because the lesson was there to be learned by the Dems in 2002, and then again 2004 - and here it is 2006 and the Dems STILL don't get it.

When over half of the Democratic Party Senators canceled their own No votes, by voting in favor of Cloture - when it turns out that the Repukes in the FINAL VOTE didn't even get 60 votes and (not all Republican votes by the way - i think Alito got a total of 58 votes in favor of confirmation) that demonstrates in full view just the extent of the feckless, double crossing unprincipled people HALF of the Party Senators are.

No way for me to measure the impact of this event among the activist community - that would be some interesting research for someone with time on their hands - so i can only hazard a guess that this vote will have consequences, and the impact will ripple through the party to the extent that more and more 'third' or "new" party candidates will be running again against the next DLC party ticket.

And these people will still be blaming Nader for the 2000 election, because they still don't get it, they don't want to understand, don't want to know just how serious this is, and what can THEY do to turn the tide. No, it's much more effective by demonizing Nader and people who voted for their hopes and not their fears in 2000.

[Moochy]

107. Simple is Good

"The smaller faction cannot reasonably hope the larger faction will be the one to give way; life does not work like that."

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

"It is the smaller faction that will have to accept going along with the larger, if anything is ever to be achieved. And clearly, something must be done...."

"Neither fire nor wind, birth nor death can erase our good deeds."
-- Siddhartha Buddha

[radio4progressives]

127. good post... n/t

[T Town Jake]

82. Yep. Exactly right. It's the very reason I discount all of this...

..."passionate" bitching from Greens and "let's Dump the Democratic Party" assholes who now scream outrage....

THEY are the ones who gave us Alito - and much else.

[Aaaargh]

89. Let's face it -- the real culprits are Hungarian-Americans

If you take all the Americans of Hungarian descent who live in FLA and either voted for Bush or Nader or didn't vote at all, their numbers MORE than make up for Bush's (adjusted) margin of victory in 2000!

I don't wanna hear ANY GODDAMNED EXCUSES MADE over what these contemptible Hungarian-Americans TRAITORS done to us! If it wasn't for the Hungarian-Americans, it wouldn't have happened! The 9/11 attacks, the Patriot Act, the Bush tax cuts, the Iraq War, Bolton at the UN, Roberts and Alito, are ALL the fault of Hungarian-Americans and NOBODY else, because if the Hungarian-Americans had just done the right thing, NONE OF THIS STUFF WOULD HAVE HAPPENED! PERIOD!!!

FIE UPON THEE, HUNGARIAN-AMERICANS! YOU DONE IT! NOW, SHUT UP!

[PatGund]

90. Absolutely no remorse or regrets

He did his job as a spoiler, and cashed the money the GOP gave him for it, like a good lapdog.

[wakemewhenitsover]

95. I've heard some people say he works for the GOP, but...

...my take is, he's stubborn, to the point of insensitivity.

Otherwise, how can his heart not break when he sees the impact this administration has had on the environment?

[Strong Atheist]

91. .

:popcorn:

[Kahuna]

92. Give it to the repukes. At least they KNEW what the real prize was...

It was always about the supreme court. Too bad Nader and his followers couldn't see the harm putting more repukes on the supreme court would do. And of course, they now screech the loudest.

[LittleClarkie]

96. Blissfully unaware, I reckon

One of the benefits of senility.

[wakemewhenitsover]

104. So he and * have that in common.

[newscott]

97. Well gues what the Dem's are no different.

They couldn't shoot down Alito, so they are no different. Go along to get along is their motto.

[ulysses]

99. "think of the court!" they cried in 2000.

Evidently, the court wasn't all that big a deal.

[depakid]

101. I think Ralph feels vindicated-

After all IT PROVES HIS POINT PRECISELY.

The Dems approved of Alito- just like they approved of Thomas and Scalia.

They bear the responsibility for putting them on the Court- and they could easily have stopped them if they thought it was important enough.

That's what Nader said in 2000- and to that extend (and many more) there's no longer a dime's worth of difference between the parties.

[Kahuna]

110. How did the Dems approved of Alito? The vast majority voted AGAINST

him. Nice trying to blame the Dems for Nader's mess.

[depakid]

116. Nader simply said

words to the effect that the Dems whine about Thomas, Scalia and now Alito- but then refuse (as a party) to use their power to block them.

And no matter what you might think of Nader- you have to admit he was absolutely right about that.

[LincolnMcGrath]

102. Keep blaming Nader for Dem failings and we will continue to lose.

H Ross Perot got roughly 8.5 percent of the pop. vote in 96. Toss in Greens Libers and all other for a total of 10+% of pop. vote. AND YET, SOMEHOW Bill Clinton managed to smoke Dole by 9%. (The "Other" votes in 1992 were over 20%)

The TOTAL Greens, Libers, Reform, and others in 2000 was 4% of popular vote. Al Gore won the pop vote by .51 percent!

The votes in the "Other" or "outside the big two parties" were VERY low in 2000 and 2004.

A. Research past election totals

B. Stop blaming Nader and deal with the reality.

[PBass]

105. Question about Ralph Nader

Why doesn't he run for the Senate, or another national office?

Why do these quixotic runs for the presidency every four years? He could do a lot of good in the Senate. Running for president is a big crapshoot even within the 2 part system, and plenty of good, worthwhile candidates haven't made it. Running for Senator is a little less lofty and a he'd have a more reasonable hope of winning.

Sorry if this is a dumb question

[wakemewhenitsover]

108. That's a really good point. Shows he's disingenuous.

[mac56]

120. Not a dumb question at all.

The answer is very simple. It's all about Ralph. It's never been about leading the country. Unless it's leading the country TO RALPH.

[RiffRandell]

136. Any why don't the same people that defend Nader on this board

ever respond to this question? It's not a dumb question at all.

[enough already]

109. Why blame Nader?

If our own party had just stuck together, we could have filibustered the nazi to death.

[BoneDaddy]

111. I don't know who is worse

The republican idiots who keep blaming Clinton for everything or the Democratic shitheads who keep blaming Nader. I mean people, shut the fuck up and move on. What a bunch of fekking crybabies.

[RandomKoolzip]

112. I voted for Nader in 2000. I'm sorry. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Vindicated given the voting record of some Democrats

keep spitting on the progresive base... by the way he was not the reason for the coup, but keep harping, since GORE won in Florida...

So you should ask more properly how do the five justices in Bush V Gore feel about it? Fine thank you.

[Radical Activist]

118. Oh just get the fuck over it.

The Republicans are the problem not Nader. What is wrong with people?!

[mac56]

121. Did you really say "get the fuck over it"?!

Isn't that reminiscent of "Bush won. Get over it"?

Naderites and Republicans are the groups it's hard to find the difference between anymore.

[Radical Activist]

123. Yes, I did say that.

Gore won the 2000 election. Blame Bush for stealing it. Nader has done more to make the nation a better place than the next dozen do-nothing DLC capitulating Congressmen. The constant Nader bashing is tiresome and misplaced.

[mac56]

125. That's the saddest thing of all.

"Nader has done more to make the nation a better place than the next dozen do-nothing DLC capitulating Congressmen."

So true. He once did so many great things. It must just kill him inside to see all those things get whittled away by the Administration he himself helped to put into power.

[Radical Activist]

129. I'm sure Gore is thinking the same thing.

If only he had stood for something more than poll-tested half-assed platitudes he might have won by a bigger margin.

[mac56]

130. Yes yes oh yes, that's the ONLY thing that led to Bush's "victory".

The egomaniacal spoiler had NOTHING to do with it at all.

Add to edit:

At least Gore ran intending to win. Ralph knew he had no chance, and stayed in to be a shit-disturber.

[Radical Activist]

132. Just like Nader is the ONLY thing that lead to Bush's victory?

Which is exactly why blaming it all on Nader is so dumb, as if there weren't a million other reasons, like the far more important one, which is that Bush stole Florida. You can't honestly put all the blame on Nader, therefore, get the fuck over it.

[mac56]

134. No, I will not "get the fuck over it".

Nader and the Naderites have a lot to answer for. They can sugar-coat it any way they care to: whatever helps them sleep at night.

[LincolnMcGrath]

137. Nader was a non issue. End of story.

You can keep charging the windmill of Nader all you want, It will not help Dems, progressives, or Liberals. PLEASE study general elections of the last 3 - 4 decades before you waste any more fire and brimstone on a falsehood. http://www.uselectionatlas.org/

[mac56]

140. Looked at your site. Mighty purty.

Lots of gimcrackery. Didn't see the point you wanted me to get.

[LincolnMcGrath]

142. See post #102 for condensed version of reality please.

Lets call all votes for anyone other than a D or R as "others". With me so far? "Other" votes in 2000 and 2004 were low, not kinda low, Very frickin low. (%)


Ask yourself why BC was able to win with double and triple the amount of "other" votes cast. (%)
The get to work helping a progressive Dem win the next G E.

[mac56]

119. Naderites are gloating about Alito

because they want "scorched earth". They want things to get as bad as they can so they can say "I told you so."

Republicans are gloating about Alito, too, for obvious reasons.

Only Dems are not.

Wow, look at that. Looks like the Naderites and Republicans are the groups that there's no difference between.

[radio4progressives]

126. Naderites are gloating about Alito? Really? Where are you seeing this ?

I know progressives (greens and dems)who fought LONG and HARD against this confirmation for the reasons why it needed to be fought up until the bitter end. and no one I know is gloating about it at all.

[mac56]

128. Here's one of many quotes from THIS VERY THREAD.

"I think Ralph feels vindicated- After all IT PROVES HIS POINT PRECISELY.

The Dems approved of Alito- just like they approved of Thomas and Scalia.

They bear the responsibility for putting them on the Court- and they could easily have stopped them if they thought it was important enough.

That's what Nader said in 2000- and to that extend (and many more) there's no longer a dime's worth of difference between the parties."

Need I go on?

[Dr Fate]

122. A smug "That will teach you all a lesson" attitude. n/t

n/t

[JohnWxy]

124. Yes, the destructive impact of Nader goes on and on.

[Telly Savalas]

139. Did he vote for cloture on Alito?

[JohnWxy]

131. some will say don't bring this up, it's too uncomfortable. But if there

is a chance that extremists can learn from their mistakes (I know it's a long shot) it's worth bringing it up.

[radio4progressives]

135. Here's what Nader was talking about and What OUTRAGED Progressives

Read it and Weap - then ARGUE your point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2434753

[chonce]

138. Blame the DLC

This was an absurd subject.

The reason Nader ran is because partisan Democrats are liable to do things like: give Bush approval to invade Iraq; Vote for the Patriot Act; confirm movement conservatives onto the bench; fail to provide universal healthcare, or even try; call Bush a liar; take unambiguous stances against the war before approval for the war falters; assume that we must shift to the center and change the whole definition of what the the center used to be etc...

The fact is, if Clinton had not ran such a conservative presidency -- welfare reform, interventionist foreign policies, execution, expanding the drug war, choosing punishment over prevention, altering FCC regulations to allow more consolidation in the media the list goes on -- there would have been no need for a throed party movement. Nader was filling a vacuum.

My hope is that Nader's pf the world force the Democrats to stand up for progressive causes, because they have failed as an opposition party.

[Skittles]

141. that egotistical bastard doesn't feel a f***ing thing

he truly does not comprehend the damage he helped create

[stevedeshazer]

143. This thread is SO last month....

[chonce]

144. Do Nader's policies bother you?

Or are you strictly mad about his running against Gore.

Thats what should be the issue. Who has better policies?



The hatred at Nader seems so out of place since his politics are in tune to liberalism. He is on the left.

In the US, because of the absurdly narrow parameters for debates perpetuated by politicians and pundits alike, Democrats are considered very liberal. In many parts of Europe, however, they consider the party to be right-of-center, if you can believe that.

Look around you. The pensions that are being cut; the jobs that are lost; the fact that only something like 12 percent of Jobs are unionized; the fact that to be anti-war is too be considered treasonous and "radical"; the fact that we have an illegal war that Democrats have, to be frank, enabled.

These are the byproducts of having too relatively conservative parties -- both who are submissive to lobbyists -- running the show.

I can understand that you disagree with those who lived in swing-states and still voted for Nader. I live in Mass; I have the luxury of voting third party without feeling trapped into lesser-evil-ism.

It is a logical strategy, though very undemocratic.

I cannot vote for someone who voted for the Patriot Act, or the war. Period. I vote on principles, not parties.

But the hostility I hear from some of you -- you know who you are -- makes it seem like you have a very absolutist view of the truth. That there are no shades of grey -- that this is black and white. Its the type of rhetoric that is likely to come out of Dick Cheney's mouth.

Nader supporters, and likewise the man himself, are thinking long-term. By continuing to accept that only two parties can represent the vast array of political beliefs is absurd, our country will continue to be stuck in an oversimplified, and increasingly conservative mess.

Moreover, they have noticed the drastic rightward trend of Democrats in recent decades. (As Eric Alterman pointed out in What Liberal Media Clinton's fiscal polices were to the right of Nixon.

Why bother with blanket statements lacking any evidence to back them up? We could, perhaps, see why Nader voters did what they did, and why partisan Democrats feel voting for a third party makes you evil.

A genuine discourse, could teach us both a lot. After all, Nader supporters and progressive Democrats are very much alike. Though, the DLC crowd -- Hillary, Lieberman, From -- can go become Republicans, as far s I can tell. As long as you have guys who signed the PNAC letter leading the Democratic Party, it will lose voters who want genuine progressive change.

If the Party doesn't wake up, and fight for liberal causes, their will be Nader's every election/

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

147. oh yeah, ignore the 15 and blame ralph

that's really productive

[Hippo_Tron]

148. Okay, WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD?

The election of 2000 was over 5 years ago and it's not like we can go back in time and change it. What do we accomplish by blaming people for something that has already happened and can't be changed?