Seeing Fakes, Angry Traders Confront EBay

[CatWoman]

SAN FRANCISCO, Jan. 28 — A year ago Jacqui Rogers, a retiree in southern Oregon who dabbles in vintage costume jewelry, went on eBay and bought 10 butterfly brooches made by Weiss, a well-known maker of high-quality costume jewelry in the 1950's and 1960's.

At first, Ms. Rogers thought she had snagged a great deal. But when the jewelry arrived from a seller in Rhode Island, her well-trained eye told her that all of the pieces were knockoffs.

Even though Ms. Rogers received a refund after she confronted the seller, eBay refused to remove hundreds of listings for identical "Weiss" pieces. It said it had no responsibility for the fakes because it was nothing more than a marketplace that links buyers and sellers.

That very stance — the heart of eBay's business model — is now being challenged by eBay users like Ms. Rogers who notify other unsuspecting buyers of fakes on the site. And it is being tested by a jewelry seller with far greater resources than Ms. Rogers: Tiffany & Company, which has sued eBay for facilitating the trade of counterfeit Tiffany items on the site.

If Tiffany wins its case, not only would other lawsuits follow, but eBay's very business model would be threatened because it would be nearly impossible for the company to police a site that now has 180 million members and 60 million items for sale at any one time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/technology/29ebay.html?ei=5090&en=37c0f658ecbcd4b1&ex=1296190800&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

[acmavm]

1. Shoot, guess I'll get rid of the dupe that doesn't have a response.

Nuts.

[acmavm]

2. I do not understand the E-Bay phenomena at all. Why buy sight

unseen. You're just screaming 'rip me off'.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

4. Here's an example. I was looking for a videotape of a movie, one

that was out of print, you never see in stores now. Basically can't find it anywhere.

(The movie is "The Decline of Western Civilization", Penelope Spheeris' documentary on the L.A. punk scene in the '80's)

Look on eBay and surprise! I see a couple of people selling used copies of it. Got it for about 8 bucks. Seller had good ratings. Shipped in a few days, exactly what I wanted. (There's actually 3 copies for sale on Amazon now, but there wasn't at that time.)

I spent a LONG TIME looking for this. If I got ripped off, I'd basically have no recourse but to give the shipper a "bad rating". But I'd only be out 8 bux. Lot to gain. Little to lose.

Wife buys a specific type of trinket on eBay, specialized stuff that you virtually never see in stores.



If you are spending a lot on any one item, that's another story.

[sendero]

42. Damn!!

I remember that movie! I think she did a sequel as well but I never saw that one.

Hey, I've done lots of ebay, from electronics to bars of silver.

The only problem I ever had was resolved with a single email complaint to the seller, who promptly refunded my money and paid return shipping as well.

This lawsuit isn't about to have any drastic effect on the ebay model, that's hyperbole. I do believe that ebay should have some systems whereby certain sellers who get repeated complaints are dealt with.

But then, that is what the "feedback" mechanism is all about, and the buyer can absolutely add a comment that the item was not an original - and it will be there for prudent buyers to read, or to not read.

Fact is, most ebay sellers will do just about anything to avoid a negative feedback in my experience.

[sandnsea]

21. I've only had one cheat

in over 5 years. I lost everything I own in a fire and the only way I ever would have been able to replace the collectables is on Ebay. I've gotten lots of genuine articles, and only the one knockoff. Who would think that someone would sell imitation $5 clowns??? But they were fakes. Glad it was a cheap loss. That's my personal rule of thumb anyway, don't spend more than you can afford to shrug off.

[Igel]

55. And yet, most eBay

transactions are completed without a hitch.

eBay is a place where the "all people are scum" line doesn't fly. Some are, and it's concentrated in a few areas. Otherwise, it's basically an oasis of applied, pretty much unbridled optimism, trust and confidence. With a bit of pragmatism: you check feedback, and use some common sense.

On the other hand, I've gotten some great deals.

There are a few reasonable, logical precautions ("don't be foolish" is one), and some communities police their own. For example, if you're in the market for a really high priced classical guitar, there's a news group that monitors the market. A few scams recur, and the perpetrator is quickly IDed and "tombstoned" (to use local parlance).

[Vinca]

3. It's not just jewelry . . . I gave up on ebay enforcing honesty

a long time ago. Someone from eastern Europe was selling "Daum" vases for practically nothing . . . and that's about what they were worth. I emailed ebay about it and didn't get a response. As an ebay seller, my best advice is to buy from people with tons of good feedback.

[CatWoman]

5. yes

I've learned that lesson the hard way.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. What's REALLY unfair...the rules are NOT the same worldwide. For instance,

people in the United States could not list designer (insert name)-"like" items on Ebay, but European rules were different. Europeans could list all the designer-"like" items they wanted to without penalty, but they yank U.S. auctions for doing it. That was an unfair advantage because then when someone searched for the actual designer name, the (designer name)- "like" item would come up in the search. PISSED ME OFF. I sell on Ebay (sometimes) and had listed an EXACT item to someone in Europe and they pulled my ad because of the reason stated above, but their's remained:grr:. I suppose this could have changed by now because I haven't sold things for a while.

[tenshi816]

35. I won't even finish reading the auction page

if it's an eastern European auction, and I tend to steer clear of Hong Kong and mainland Chinese ones as well because they all do a big trade in fraudulent goods. I know I'm using a broad brush here and that there are honest eBayers from those places, but I'm not willing to take a chance.

[grasswire]

38. I've had several good experiences buying international..

..one was a package of vintage art-cover sheet music from Romania, another a trendy Japanese purse for a family member, yet another a package of vintage Tequila labels.

I sell international, all over the world on eBay. The most remote locations have purchased vintage papers from me -- even some places where they only get mail once a week by boat.

In all my years of buying/selling there, I've never had a really bad experience.

[bedazzled]

50. that's encouraging to hear!

i always chew my nails when i have to deal with an overseas customer, but after about 15 of them, i must admit i've never had a problem (yet - knock wood)

[Vinca]

57. Do overseas customers ask you to fudge the customs forms?

Just wondering. I don't mind selling internationally, but I get seriously annoyed when they expect me to commit fraud in order to save them a couple of bucks. And, of course, now I also get paranoid because I figure someone's tapping into the email and they think they'll catch me conspiring to commit a crime. (Get a grip, Vinca, get a grip.) Ah, life in America ca. 2006.

[napi21]

6. I think I'm on Ebay's side on this one.

I've been selling on Ebay for 5+ years. I am always VERY CAREFUL to make sure my listings are absolutely accurate! Most of the things I sell are NEW and of course state that. I have sold some personal things on Ebay as well, and ALWAYS state the exact condition, problems if any, and volunteer to answer any questions anyone would have.

I ALSO BUY things on Ebay, and have never had any problems with anything I bought. HOWEVER! The old addage "Let the buyer beware" certainly applies. The one BIG thing Ms. Rogers could do, if she hasn't already, is to post her finding in the sellers feedback. FEEDBACK rating is EVERYTHING on Ebay. Just ONE feedback that says "Don't buy from this seller, There items are fake!" will kill that seller faster than any court can! I would suggest Ms. Rogers & Tiffany's go after the seller, the one who IS breaking the law!

For anyone who buys on Ebay, ALWAYS read the sellers feedback! It's the inside scoop on that seller, and pay close attention to it! You'll get the picture pretty quick. If a seller has 1,000+ feedbacks (1,000 positive and 2 negative) go look at the negatives. If they say something like "I never heard from this seller and my emails were never answered." but the other 1,000 are all good, you can safely assume the two negatives were either running a firewall that blocked the emails, or just the typical difficult customer.

If a seller has 300 feedbacks and 10 are negative similar to "I finally received the item but it was inferior quality, and took 5 weeks to get it." STAY AWAY and find your item elsewhere.

To me, Ebay is like shopping at a giant outlet mall. Not EVERY store in that mall is a terrific seller either!

[SmokingJacket]

7. I agree.

It's not the place to buy real Tiffany or whatever -- but if you want to add to your antique postcard collection, or get good used books, it's awesome.

[Yupster]

11. I just bought two books this last week

for about three bucks total.

I love e-bay and have never had a problem with it.

I think if someone is caught selling fraudulent items, e-bay should ban them from their site though, but I don't expect e-bay to inspect items for sale.

On edit just wanted to add the best thing I've seen for sale on e-bay

For Sale -- my soul -- hardly ever used.

[ebayfool]

46. Raging Hormones Menopausal Prozac Barbie ... my vote for most creative

eBay auction! Also, the strangest - though there are alot of close runner ups! 'Prozac Barbie' went for $823.46 & 57 bids, LOL!


http://h1.ripway.com/nunya/PROZACBARBIE.htm



I've not had many bad experiences w/buying on eBay, but I did learn quickly to check the listing's wording & the feedback very closely.

[bedazzled]

51. a work of modern art!

guess i don't think much of modern art. makes me kind of nervous, actually. i'm probably jealous, cos she has better legs and hair...

[rooboy]

8. I bought a pair of running shoes from a 99.9% eBay seller...

and they were FAKES. To sell counterfeit goods is illegal, and the recommendations of others isn't enough. The seller should be made to submit a legally binding statement that their items are genuine, or face fraud charges.

[napi21]

9. Someone selling counterfeit goods isn't going to care , they'll just

sign it! There are crooks everywhere, and again "Buyer beware!"

Believe me, there are thousands of buyers who got exactly what they wanted for every buyer like you who didn't.

Also, I'm not directing this to anyone specific person, but people need to READ the listing very closely. Many times there's something in the listing that actually tells you "This is "like" the name brand. Of course it's sometimes well hidden, and you have to search the words carefully.

There's also that old, but very reliable phrase..."if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is."

I love Ebay, and I've gotten some terrific deals on many, many things, but it's your personal decision to buy there or not, the same as it is your decision to shop in any store.

[WinkyDink]

12. ITA. I LOVE E-BAY!

Gee, an autograph of a famous person for $9.99? I don't think so!
As for the Daum, I've seen Galle vases locally on auction for peanuts (relatively); I almost bid, but did my homework and found that Galle has licensed the name out.

But I bought a fab 14K ID bracelet that I took to get engraved; the jeweler was SHOCKED at the excellent price compared to its higher value! Magazines and books, very good deals. I could go on. I was burned once, with 18K earrings; seller assured me the "cm" posted was really in "inches"; nope. Live and learn.
Caveat emptor!

ETA: I DID buy legit Tiffany: a no-longer-produced large 18K initial ("D"). I had seen and coveted one in the NYC store; the e-Bay one was totally Tiffany.

[moondust]

28. The problem with feedback.

Ebay will not remove feedback that is purely retaliatory. If one party gets screwed somehow and therefore leaves negative feedback, the other party can turn around and invent a pack of pure lies to leave for the individual they screwed. It has happened to me more than once. I tried using all the channels available to get rid of retaliatory feedback but there was no way to do it. Safe Harbor costs $25 but it only works if both parties act in good faith. The scam artist who invented the lies only has to withdraw from the process and you're out $25.

Needless to say, I don't spend much time on Ebay anymore.

[tenshi816]

32. The way to get around that,

if you plan to leave negative feedback and are worried the other party might retaliate, is to wait until, literally, the very end of the time you're allowed to leave feedback (what is it, 90 days?) and leave the negative feedback as close to the actual cutoff time as possible. This leaves the other party unable to leave unwarranted negative feedback for you because the period has timed out. The feedback period starts the second the auction is over, so if you make a note of that time, you'll know when the feedback period ends. I've used that method before and it's worked well for me.

[bedazzled]

34. omigosh, that is positively BRILLIANT

hats off to you, i never would've thought of that!

[tenshi816]

36. Thank you!

It's kind of fiddly, clock-watching and all, but it's a good way to avoid retaliatory, unjustified negative feedback.

[bedazzled]

40. i'm good at clock-watching stuff -

especially when my feedback's on the line.

i feel obligated to warn other purchasers of my experience, but hate to lose my perfect feedback, so i really appreciate your suggestion. thanks!

[moondust]

41. The problem with that

is that the scammer can leave negative feedback as soon as he/she senses that the scam may not work exactly as planned. This in fact happened with one of my cases. As soon as he found out I was on to him he left a pack of lies preemtively.

[slaveplanet]

43. I agree

My father had negative feedback left before the seller even sent shipping info.

Sellers contact info said England, Seller gave a German phone # and said Item would be shipped from Germany.

Seller left neg before even sending location to send payment.

Ebay would not retract neg but suspended seller for false contact info, but he was back selling within 2 weeks...He had a perfect feedback rating. He was given 90 days to retract the neg...never did, now he has an imperfect record.

[bedazzled]

48. boy, that's low. i don't like to deal overseas, though i've done it.

if your dad didn't have a lot of feedbacks - it would really make your feedback level plummet to have just one negative! don't know how much damage it'd do to me with 634 positives. have to ask my hubby - he's the math whiz in our family!

i got one neutral once - complaining about how quickly i shipped - the day after they won the auction! i put a response in there that he might want to wait until he receives the item before he criticizes how quickly i shipped it...

overseas transctions always seemed kind of dodgy to me - very few protections for either the seller or the purchaser. i've done it quite a few times, enough to make me realize that some folks overseas seem to have quite a bit more money than the americans do.

[Carni]

52. One bad experience I had on ebay

I sell paintings on ebay--a guy bid and won and silly me I sent the damned thing before I was paid (yeah yeah I didn't know what I was doing)

SOOOOOO he never pays me and then happens to live nearby me...he wants to meet me and drop the money off (don't think so dude)

To top everything else off he starts bidding on my other paintings (thank God he lost the auctions)

I ended up writing him and saying look forget about paying keep the painting just leave me some decent feedback.

He did and fortunately the whacko was kicked off ebay about three weeks after that whole bizarro world exchange.

Aside from that one weird experience I have by and large dealt with nice honest people...and it's true everyone lives in great fear of negative feedback!

[bedazzled]

33. it is possible to put a short response in to a feedback comment

after i put in bad feedback for my rip off artist, he will undoubtedly leave bad feedback for me. i intend to respond to that feedback suggesting any interested parties compare our two feedback records and see who they think is on the up and up!

i don't remember how you respond to a comment, only did it once, but if you poke around you'll find the instructions. maybe the help feature...

[moondust]

45. The problem with that

is that it reduces the whole case to his/her word against yours--which is a great deal for the scammer because his/her word may be 100% bullshit. So the scammer now has a 50-50 chance of being believed. Ebay will treat it as merely a disagreement between buyer and seller and let his/her bullshit stand.

In one of my cases the seller actually claimed I did not pay him when the payment records proving otherwise were readily available at PayPal--a company owned by Ebay.

[bedazzled]

49. i see your point!

guess it all comes down to reading the feedback carefully...and not dealing with folks with a lot of negatives.

imagine, claiming you didn't pay when you paid via paypal. takes balls the size of church bells, though he was probably aware that ebay/paypal provide absolutely no protections whatsoever!

[DeepModem Mom]

10. kick

[tenshi816]

13. Like other posters have pointed out,

eBay is a place where "let the buyer beware" should be uppermost in every buyer's mind when they're considering purchasing on eBay. Personally, I love it and out of nearly 1000 transactions have only been stiffed 3 times (and each of those was for negligible amounts).

eBay is a godsend for people who want to run their own businesses but can't afford the overhead for office/warehouse space and paying staff. I've bought musical instruments (2 electric guitars, 3 acoustic and a banjo), as well as a DVD player, 2 flatscreen computer monitors, 2 digital cameras and a camcorder - all brand new, in original packaging - from sellers running their own online stores on eBay. We also bought a completely restored ex-pub full-sized pooltable from a company on eBay for less than half of what I've seen them selling for elsewhere, and they even delivered and set it up for us.

The trick is to do your homework - read sellers' feedback and for heaven's sake, read the entire item description and terms of sale. I can't stress this enough! Otherwise, it's easy to end up like this poor bloke! (Read down to the last line of the lengthy item description for the twist in the tale...)

[renate]

23. that's so sad

I actually felt nauseated on the "winner's" behalf when I got to the end of that description because I was so sad for him--and there's nothing he could do about it once he got the thing except take a little comfort in the concept of karma.

[tenshi816]

29. The saddest thing of all

was that the seller "de-registered" (sorry, that sounds stupid but I can't think of what else to call it) from eBay after the guy paid. Once a seller does that, neither eBay nor Paypal will attempt to claw back a refund from the seller's credit card because the seller is no longer a part of eBay.

I always read the fine print on eBay auctions and think of this poor guy's experience as a cautionary tale.

[WinkyDink]

14. On FOX right now.

Major story, guest speaker.

[mtnsnake]

15. Them's small potatoes compared to the fake running the country

There ya go. People get all up in arms if they get beat out of a few bucks, but they get beat out of a country and it doesn't phase them in the least.

[Ksec]

16. I hear theyre selling lots of knockoffs as real

Shoes, clothing, jewelry. I read this guys post about a pair of nikes he bought that were fake. I quickly left that seller . Usually the feedback can root out the bad guys but sometimes it takes a while. Ive been ripped off on Ebay, and Im real careful from now on.

[ariesgem]

37. Many of these knockoffs are sold from auctions in Hong Kong

Dolce & Gabbana, Gucci, Abercrombie, Juicy Couture, Chanel ect... sell from Hong Kong starting as low as $9.99, "new with tags". If you read some of the feedback on these auctions, many of the buyers rip into these sellers about their fakes.

[sandnsea]

18. Good, I just ended up with two knock-offs

I was replacing a couple of items that my mother had given me that had gotten broken and they are fakes. They were less than $10, so I don't even get the value in selling them. I just wanted them for sentimental reasons. Anyway, I contacted Ebay the way they say you're supposed to, and never heard another word. I don't expect them to reimburse me for my "loss", that's my problem. But I do expect them to respond when I tell them I've got known knock-offs.

[hedgehog]

19. I think "snagged a great deal" needs to be examined.

If you aren't paying something like fair market value, should you be surprised if you end up getting "cheated". Sometimes people aren't exactly truthful in their descriptions of merchandise, that's one problem. But if you paid $10 for something that's worth $10 and got something that's worth $10, even if you thought you were getting something worth $10,000, has anyone been cheated?

[tenshi816]

30. That's a very good point. n/t

[Ksec]

20. So if a seller is selling knockoffs

Shouldnt that show up on his feedback? The seller cant erase bad feedback. (that I know of)

Its kinda like a mini free market system. (without a government propping up the rich and powerful)

[sandnsea]

22. I didn't leave feedback

I was afraid of being accused of slander or having an attack of lies on my feedback. I figure the way to handle fraud is through Ebay's fraud reporting system. That doesn't work either though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. When I got ripped off, I reported it as feedback

and the seller called me and went off on me over the phone. I reported that too. But ebay never responded to me when I complained.

[slaveplanet]

24. This just proves the point

If something can so easily be knocked off that it is not readily apparent from a photograph, it is not worth owning in the first place.

All this collectible hysteria is BS and a distraction anyway. It amounts to polishing the silverware on the Titanic...Where is the value in anything when Freedom is not valued first and foremost.

See what those beenie babies are worth when the doors start being kicked in.

Maybe if all these collectors would focus the hours it takes to be an expert on some obscure trinket were put forth to fighting tyranny we wouldn't be in the present predicament this country now finds itself...

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. I got ripped on ebay ONE time

I have never gone back.

[H2O Man]

26. Ha!!!

I showed my younger son a photo of Rubin "Hurricane" Carter and an opponent for sale on E-Bay. The photo was autographed by both fighters. The only problem was the weasal that faked the autographs didn't know who Rubin was fighting, and signed another fighter's name. Is nothing sacred?

[bedazzled]

31. i just got ripped off for the first time because i IGNORED THE FEEDBACK

i got complacent. after 6 years on ebay - 60 purchases - over 600 sales, and perfect feedback the whole time, the crooks finally got me. i dealt with someone with 95.5% feedback rating - 20,000 total feedbacks and approximately 40 complaints a month over the last year.

unless i misunderstand, ebay/paypal charges $25 to open a purchaser complaint investigation! at least it was only a $15 item, but it seems my only recourse is to leave bad feedback, and he obviously doesn't care about that...

you're never too experienced to learn something, i guess.

[Deja Q]

39. I hope Tiffany wins.

If P2P sites get shut down for allowing trading of illegal and bogus items, then so should ebay.

[giant_robot]

44. Sort of off topic, but...

This reminds me of a story I read a while back about an eBay user turning the tables on a scammer. It's a pretty entertaining read, if you have the time. Here's the link:

http://www.p-p-p-powerbook.com/files/thepowerbook.pdf

[napi21]

56. That story is absolutely GREAT!

It's pretty long, but well worth the read!

I must give a lot of credit for some VERY creative thinking. I wish I could find out if there was ever a FU email from the guy in London!

[Quakerfriend]

47. I'm all about "Let the buyer beware!". I have bought some

incredible gems on ebay- ALL items that my relatives- great, great grandfather and great uncles wrote or made-

Books, artwork, postcards of their homes etc.

These have been just priceless to me- And, I really don't know how I might have gotten a hold of them otherwise, if not for ebay. The thing about ebay is that the assortment of items is so diverse!

This wonderful forum should not be compromised by buyers so foolish as to not check out all the facts or verify the authenticity of an item!!!

[bedazzled]

53. like you, i have found items that are very important to me on ebay

and find it enjoyable and useful! if you check feedbacks carefully, you will find sellers (like me) who will bend over backwards to make you happy (and hopefully avoid the other sort...)

[ContraBass Black]

54. Buyers are supposed to warn other buyers of fraudulent sellers

Through forums and comments.