Fellow Dean Supporters: Here's why there's only one smart move left now.

[Merlin]

If you're like me, you love Dean but know it's over for him and don't feel comfortable with Kerry, there is a next-best solution.

First, let's be clear. Howard's campaign is finished in this election cycle. There's simply no way for him to be elected President with that video lurking out there. (Yes, we all know it is flawed because the directional mike failed to capture the din over which he was trying to make himself heard. But the Dean campaign should have countered with that fact within hours, not a week later. By now it just doesn't matter. People only get the main story. Not the subtext.)

Nor is there any evidence anywhere yet that Dean has actual appeal to the broad middle swath of American voters--even Democrats. In fact, I'd have to say that he probably does not. He has immense appeal to those of us who read and pay attention and desparately want change. But the problem is that to win you have to appeal to the people who have only a vague sense of what's really going on; people who's grasp of the issues and facts is sketchy at best; people who read only the headlines. Howard does not appeal to those Americans. $40 million raised and spent trying in vain to earn their support proves it.

Therefore, I conclude that this year Howard is not going to make the top spot. That's just a fact of life. I have been very depressed by it for over a week now, but it's just plain true.

However, there IS a next-best solution.

Kerry doesn't go down well with me, even though I've known and worked with him in the past. He's just too much of a politician. His parroting of Dean's themes is exactly that. I don't have confidence in his leadership, his ability to beat Bush, and his competence as POTUS even if he did.

Kerry does not reflect Dean's values.

But Clark does.

And Clark has a glaring weakness that Dean can fill. He does not have civilian government experience, which Dean does.

In short, the picture is simply flipped from where it was a month ago. Then we were all saying Clark should be Dean's #2 because he made up for Dean's weaknesses in FP and military matters. Now it's the reverse.

For me, the answer now is Clark/Dean.

We simply MUST bring Dean into the equation this year. It's not good enough to let his energy and idealism and fund raising ability slip away. The #2 spot gives us a profoundly electable ticket, and two outside-the-beltway guys with enormous competence to bring about the kinds of change we need in this party and this government.

So, sadly, reluctantly, yet energetically and fervently, I say:

Clark/Dean 2004 !

I'd appreciate any feedback from other Dean supporters who also recognize his campaign for the top spot is over.

[Lefta Dissenter]

1. Not a Dean Supporter,

but I appreciate your post. Thoughtful, and never forgetting that the ultimate goal is to get bush OUT of the White House and put in actual thinking leaders who have a positive plan for our country!

Thanks. :pals:

[Darth_Kitten]

2. it's not over til it's over....

:)

[Lefta Dissenter]

5. What a darling photo!

Gave me a good smile :D

[Darth_Kitten]

38. Nobody takes me seriously.

"Ah, isn't that a cute kitty picture!!!" ;)

:evilgrin: :D Ah, shucks. ;)

[xultar]

11. I want a box of PopTarts just like yours n/1

[Darth_Kitten]

40. Serious message

Please have your cats spayed or neutered. And keep them out of pop tart boxes. ;)

[MoonRiver]

3. Thank you for that thoughtful and sincere post.

We need many more like it.

There's one thing I'm not sure of though. Do you think Dean would be willing to take the second slot after being a front runner?

[Merlin]

10. One solid rule of politics: A Losing Candidate will ALWAYS Accept VP

Every single one of them will assert vehemently, when they're in the running for the top spot, that they will NEVER accept 2nd place.

But every single one will reverse himself when the time comes. It's a time honored tradition of our democracy. After they accept the second spot, nobody ever asks them about their previous vow never to do so. Nobody cares at that point.

The really big question, imo, is whether the Clark people value and appreciate what Dean has done and what his issues and supporters and skills have to offer both to the party and to the nation. In other words, would Clark pick Dean? That remains to be seen.

Clark/Dean in 2004 !

[Cheswick2.0]

4. no thank you

Dean/Clark maybe

[Darth_Kitten]

7. You go Cheswick!!!!

:thumbsup: :hi: :)

[jsw_81]

6. Clark would never select Dean

Nobody would, not after the infamous Scream Heard 'Round the World.

[Mass_Liberal]

14. hey

what is your problem? We are having something of a unity thread here. We don't want your damned ill-will fouling everything up.

[bloom]

20. looks more like a clark thread to me...n/t

[Merlin]

22. Get over it. We're trying to be realistic so we can get Bush OUT.

In a two way race, it may not be over until it's over.

But in a multi-person race, a candidate who is clearly on the way out is wisest to throw his support elsewhere while he still has some bargaining power. Dean should make a move now -- or maybe after the results come in next week.

Clark/Dean in 2004 !

[bloom]

23. Oh - get over it yourself...n/t

[Merlin]

24. Oh, that's an intelligent reply.

Maybe I'll try that ignore icon after all.

[bloom]

26. fine - ignore me

I just think it's annoying - someone who has decided to be a Clark Supporter calling themselves a Dean Supporter in their thread title.

[polpilot]

62. Dean supporter here. Your thoughts on Dean/Clark chances v. ur option.

z

[Mass_Liberal]

28. um

notice the large bold letters DEAN/CLARK!!!!

[bloom]

30. "um"

on my computer it says CLARK/DEAN. I see a difference there.

[Mass_Liberal]

47. O Ya?

Well.... wait you're right. Sorry, Dean/Clark is what I meant.

[mdmc]

65. lol

oh, good times. :~)
Dean supporter reminding all that
EVERYTHINGS GONNA BE OKAY, AMERICA !!!

[jsw_81]

21. You don't want me to point out facts?

Sorry.

[PVnRT]

29. So, let me get this straight

A Kerry supporter is providing "facts" about whether or not Clark would run with Dean? Why do I find this hard to believe?

[Sideways]

33. Because It Is Hard To Believe

Miss Cleo is out to lunch so Miss Mary T speaks: umm umm umm finding a Kerry supporter with any facts about Dean and Clark is like asking W to find his ass with his own hands. Or find WMD. Oops balls gone cloudy W must be opening his pie hole somewhere. Kerry hoping for a clearer ball at a later date.

[lastknowngood]

8. I'm not ready to give up yet

I always thought a Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean ticket was an easy winner but Clark is having real trouble inspiring people beyond the Conservative Dem's. If Dean is not on the ticket I will spend my time working for real Dem's on local campaigns. I will not give money or support to the DLC/DNC media selected sacrificial chump, I will vote against the shrub but I know my country is finished for at least 40 years or until the world unites against this country and destroys this evil empire.

[Lefta Dissenter]

17. Regarding your 'conservative dem' comment, pardon me,

but if you knew me or any of the other people I know who are supporting Clark, you'd realize that what you say is totally off the wall. And just to make the point, look at some of the endorsements - McGovern and Gaylord Nelson - you care to call them conservative dems?

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. I don't concede anything after 2 lousy fucking states

(no offense to residents of those states - only referring to the overstatement of their importance)

The last elected President of the United States came in 4th in Iowa.
He came in 2nd in New Hampshire.

Then he went on to be President of the United States for 8 years despite constant attempts by the right wing to destroy him.

Howard Dean finished 3rd in Iowa, and he's still leading in delegates. Plus he's got the DLC and the media whores trying to destroy him as well as the right wingers.

So in other words, Dean is better positioned right now than Clinton was at the same point in the 1992 campaign.

Am I concerned? Fuck yes. Only an idiot wouldn't be. Do I think it's "over"?? Not by a long shot!

[jsw_81]

13. You're wrong

The last elected President of the United States came in 4th in Iowa. He came in 2nd in New Hampshire.

Yes, but Iowa wasn't contested in 1992 because favorite-son Tom Harkin was in the race; Clinton's second place showing was a shock because he had been under attack for weeks about the draft and Jennifer Flowers. And unlike Dean, Clinton was never the front-runner.

Howard Dean finished 3rd in Iowa, and he's still leading in delegates...So in other words, Dean is better positioned right now than Clinton was at the same point in the 1992 campaign.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. At this point in 1992, Clinton was surging after his upset second-place showing in New Hampshire, and he was raising a lot of money. Dean on the other hand, is almost broke and can't even afford to pay his staff. And I hate to break it to you, but most of Dean's "delegates" aren't committed delegates, but superdelegates who can change their mind at any moment. If Dean should get wiped out on February 3rd, for example, there is nothing to stop literally dozens of Dean's "delegates" from abandoning him for Kerry or Clark or whoever.

[xultar]

12. I appreciate your post but Dean isn't out of it yet. n/t

[Mass_Liberal]

15. Dean isn't done yet

I still think the race is wide open. But if he drops out, I will support Clark, definetly.

[Don Claybrook]

16. Agree with premise that Dean is going down

But I like Kerry as my backup.

[poskonig]

18. Keep Kerry open as an option.

Clark has looked very good lately. Our top four candidates would all run very strong campaigns against Bushit.

If one is into values, Kerry has been a loyal, liberal Democrat for a very long time. In addition, Kerry can raise unlimited amounts of $$$$$ against Bush before August, something other campaigns who opted for public financing cannot do. As a former Dean supporter (I switched a week before Iowa) I recommend *Kerry* as a sound choice.

[milkyway]

19. Much further down the road, this Dean guy will support that ticket.

I still think Dean has a chance to win the nomination. I like Wes Clark, and he is far preferable to Kerry. Americans vote for leaders for President, not followers. Dean and Clark are both leaders, and Kerry has shown himself time and again to be a follower. For three years George Bush was Kerry's leader, and then he switched to Howard Dean.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. Or if you really want to stick it to the DLC

vote for Kucinich.

[PassingFair]

27. I think you need a vacation, Merlin

Dean will come roaring back. This man is incredible. We will have a president for the people. As long as HE fights, I fight.

[Merlin]

49. I respect "As long as HE fights, I fight." I also need a vacation.

But please keep open about this. One thing I'm sure of about Howard, he's a smart guy. He will sense what the right thing is to do. My reading of the tea leaves is that he does not draw new supporters easily, and that he needs to make a deal soon to retain as much of his clout as possible.

[stopbush]

31. I can't say I agree with your position.

I've been a Dean supporter for a number of reasons, but the overriding reason has been the fact that Dean took bush on head on, early and often. I appreciate his guts and the fact that he went for broke when most of the other candidates were hedging their bets with their fingers firmly in the air, checking the direction of the political winds.

In a sense, I see the Dem field as being as divided as our country. On the left side of the equation you have Dean, Kucinich and Sharpton who are strong advocates of the anti-bush-all-the-time wing of the party. These are the guys with really strong spines who have based their campaigns on come-hell-or-high-water approaches to campaigning. As a life-long Dem, I find their approach both exciting, necessary...and non-DLC influenced.

On the right side of the equation I see Lieberman as the über-recht candidate with the others tilting a bit left, in effect, throwing a bone to the left wing (with Edwards, Kerry and Clark increasingly progressive or left-leaning) but not without a constant hedging of their bets.

Because of the above, I can't see - and frankly, don't want to see - Dean in the VP slot. His campaign has stood for grassroots, for bush-bashing and for changing the entire insider-based reality of the Dem party. Dean is the reformation/transformation guy. Clark and Kerry aren't that guy. Had Dean succeeded, the gauntlet would have been thrown down not just for the Dems, but for the entire country. If he fails, that transformation is dead for this year. As such, the eventual nominee (Kerry) will need to stake out his turf on what got him there, ie: being more moderate. And now we come to the crux of the issue - once Dean (Kucinich, Sharpton) are out, the Dems who are left will swing back to the right (middle) to appeal to the broad swath of voters. I don't care who it is, they'll all do it because their handlers and their focus groups told them so.

Dean has no place in such a reality. A watered-down Dean does no one any good, especially Dean. He wouldn't agree to it even if he was asked. Dean's message must and will stand or fall of its own weight this year. I'm willing to accept that and hope for a future that allows, nay, *demands*, an über-links candidate to be successful.

Final thought - it's rare that a politician selects a primary adversary as a running mate. Reagan did it with bush I, but bush I picked Quayle. JFK picked LBJ, but that was to neutralize a powerful in-party adversary in the Congress. If Clark or Kerry gets the nomination I would think they'd approach Bob Graham or Bill Richardson way before they'd approach a guy they just battled with for a year, especially if you've already provided the bush team with innumerable sound bites to use against your VP pick.

[waldenx]

32. I doubt you were ever a Dean supporter

and you must have missed the new polls that show Clark doing worse than Dean nationally.

[Merlin]

52. Look it up in the contributions list.

By the way, my real name is Bob Dean.

And no I didn't miss those polls showing Dean currently has higher positives than Clark. But you haven't apparently read the ones showing that Clark will win two states next Tuesday (AZ & OK) and Dean won't win any for the forseeable future.

And how about the polls showing Howard's negatives? Have you read those. They are outasight and insurmountable.

I'm a realist. And I believe that above all it is imperative to beat Bush. I believe sincerely that Howard wants that above all also. The future of everything every Democrat has worked for since FDR is at stake in this election; literally the future of America and the free world.

At this stage it is clear that Dean can not win. But Clark still can.

Clark/Dean in 2004 !

[welshTerrier2]

34. Great post ...

it was genuinely refreshing to read this post ... i know that it's a bitter disappointment to Dean supporters, or any candidate's supporters for that matter, to have someone say their candidate cannot win ...

your underlying them is a good one ... first and foremost, we have got to get bush out of there ... i'm a kucinich - kerry supporter ... i don't have the slightest problem with your desire to have someone other than kerry win the nomination ... i like clark ... and i like dean's message and the energy he's created this year ... i'd be enthusiastic about a clark / dean ticket ...

look, we just plain need to get bush out ... my primary (no pun intended) reason for supporting kerry is his electability ... i arrived at the conclusion that he's the most electable because he's won Iowa and NH and seems to be leading in most of next Tuesday's states ... if clark, or even dean for that matter, can "show me the money", fine ... twist the facts any way you want, kerry's the front-runner and the others seem to be lagging far behind ... and that spells electability to me ...

the anti-kerry sentiments, to the degree that they reflect 35% saying they won't vote for him if he's the nominee, are insane ... awhile back i saw a report (sorry, no link) that kerry's voting record was 98% the same as kennedy's ... do dean supporters have a problem with that voting record ... fwiw, i hated, and would never defend, kerry's iraq vote ... it stunk .. it was wrong ... but we have to look at his entire record compared to bush ... there's just no sane comparison there ... to call kerry repub-lite is absurd ...

so, you go and get clark and dean to teamup and win a couple of primaries and we'll talk ...

the bottom line here, i guess, is that it would be nice to stick to our ideals ... i'd be fighting like hell for kucinich ... but the guy hasn't shown a bit of traction anywhere ... i'm glad he's running ... he has the best message ... but to tear down the other candidates, like Dean for example, because he thinks we need to stay in Iraq, accomplishes nothing ... our Iraq policy is a total failure ... and staying there (whether for months, years or decades) as dr. dean recommends is not going to achieve anything but more casualties and diminished U.S. prestige in the world ...

we need to get bush out ... and we need to look beyond candidate loyalty ... i commend all the candidates ... but when the lead horse is way out in front and is approaching the finish line, all bets are off ... the tone around here is not good for the progressive cause ...

[PassingFair]

35. Believe me, you can't even SEE the finish line!

Dewey beats Truman.....

[welshTerrier2]

55. the finish line

the point i was trying to make was not that all candidates should just quit now because kerry is out in front ... the point was that we all need to accept and support the eventual nominee whoever that is ...

the finish line may not be in sight yet ... but it will be within the next 2 or 3 weeks ... if kerry wins almost all next tuesday's primaries and then follows that up with wins in michigan and washington, that's it ... yes, it would be statistically possible for someone to come from behind ... yes, perhaps we could have a brokered convention ...

the point was, that when the finish line is in sight, we need to pull together ... the "i won't vote for kerry" stuff will not help get rid of bush ... there's plenty to like and dislike about many of our candidates ... they're not perfect ... but they're a whole lot better than bush ... the DU poll that showed that 35% of DU would never vote for kerry is nothing but idealistic suicide ...

[slinkerwink]

36. Not over until Kerry croaks before he gets the nomination

[MercutioATC]

37. I disagree with your basic premise and I'm not giving up.

Geez, how many great events never would have happened if people hadn't stuck pehind a principle to the end?

[OKNancy]

39. This will sound weird

but I dreamed last night that Clark and Dean got together ( on a personal level) and decided to join forces. My dream didn't tell me an more..lol.

[ecstatic]

41. I disagree. Edwards is our next best choice

But I definately would take Clark over Kerry any day.

From a practical position, Edwards has the best chance of beating Bush, maybe with Clark or Dean as VP.

[JohnLocke]

43. Thanks.

[The Magistrate]

42. There Is A Good Deal To What You Say, Mr. Merlin

You have made an excellent analysis of the political terrain just now, my friend. Gov. Dean certainly has a substantial floor to his support, but there is also a substantial ceiling to it, and it is a low one. Gen. Clark seems to me to be the candidate with the best chance to prevail in the general election, and it will be a shame if he fails to secure the nomination.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Merlin]

53. Amen! And great to hear from you, too, Mr. Magistrate!

Hope all goes well with you, my friend. Thanks for your as-always wise comments.

[The Magistrate]

67. Thank You, Sir

The most important thing is that, however the primary turns out, we leave all disagreement behind and unite to do all in our power to see to it the nominee defeats the criminals of the '00 Coup in the fall at the polls. That is essential for the people and our country; no other good thing can be accomplished without this being first done.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[polpilot]

63. These are all good thoughts and posts. Clark's appeal is real. I've

heard surprising pro-Clark comments from voters who seem to somehow equate him as the Clinton guy PLUS the medals are alluring. This Fox News '04 electorate is going to be weird as hell to predict.

[JNelson6563]

72. I see nothing here

other than speculation and faulty reasoning.

Dean polls higher than Clark so why would Clark be a smarter choice? I think it would make more sense for Clark supporters to join the Dean camp. Dean's been elected lots of times before, he's governed, he's budgeted smartly and signed landmark legislation into law. Dean's also got a lot more delegates than Clark.

To say Dean is finished ain't sayin' a whole lot for Clark.

Julie

[Capn Sunshine]

44. We're running second. Clark's running fourth

and "it's over" for US?

Wow, river in Egypt river in Egypt.

[WiseMen]

45. Thoughful Post. I could work, but Dean would have to Deal Now

Main prob is not Clark, but he Clinton Folk around him who are
very sceptical of Dean's political future -- in any role.

But Dean has a bigger org which could help Clark break through if
Dean is willing to throw his voter support to Clark before Feb 3.

Does not seem to be in the cards.

Anyway, good luck guys. A good clean competetive primary is great
for the Party.

[Anwen]

46. It's not over

'til it's over.

I like Clark a lot, but I'll be sticking with Dean all the way. :)

[frustrated_lefty]

48. Ummmm.....No.

Let's talk after California and New York. Something like 96% of the delegates have yet to be decided.

[Capn Sunshine]

50. 371 up for grabs in CA alone

How many does the "front runner " have at the moment?

[Nicholas_J]

56. But the front runner

Is in the front of the polls in California, and moving up fast.

Howard has suddenly given a totally new meaning to the word down.

Survey USA 1/20-22 MoE 4.1%

Kerry 31%
Dean 26%
Clark 14%
Edwards 12%
other 11%
undecided 5%

http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/CurrentPolls.htm

And this is before Kerry's win in New Hampshire.

By the time we get to California, Dean's attempted strategy will fail, as Kerry wilL have momentum from prior wins, and Dean will have none. Everyone loves a winner, and in no place does this show more thna in politics. The voting public beleive that Kerry can beat Bush and in New Hampshore polls showed that 88 percent of Deans own supporters in New Hampshire didnt beleive Dean could beat Bush.

Deans current campaign is wonderful for Kerry, as he has returned to his attackes based on no facts, but now, he is being called on the carpet for his attacks, and the fact that he iis outright lying to try to gain traction is going to hurt him even worse. He was able to attack other cnadidates last fall, before anyone was formally running, because no one was paying attention to the campign or what was said. Now, the media is looking at every word, and checking it for validity.

Deans own statement that Kerry hasnt accomplisehd anything as Senator was thrown back into his face with a rather large list of accomplishments of Kerry as Senator.

One might ask for PROOF of Deans stated accomplishments as Governor, because on every issue in Vermont. one can go back and find proof of Dean dodging comittment to any issue, until it was certain to pass the legislature. One can prove that Dean did not do one thing in Vermont but cut social programs to belence the budget and cover his ass on all other issues

[janx]

51. Over for him?

Not if these crowds in Tuscon today are any measure...

[Merlin]

54. The Magistrate said it best a few posts above. Howard's floor is solid.

But his ceiling appears to be very low.

Check out his negatives. They are, imo, insurmountable.

[janx]

57. You're certainly welcome to your opinion.

;-)

But I'm sure as heck not giving up.

[FubarFly]

58. The negatives are built on lies an misconceptions,

Kerry's recent support is soft and media-inflated.

IMO, they may or not be insurmountable, but we won't know unless we try. And make no mistake, if we're going to go down, we're going down fighting. Throw conventional wisdom out the window. We are rewriting the rules.

[TexasMexican]

59. I'm a Dean supporter, but Clark is my 2nd choice.

I'm not too fond of Kerry myself either.

Since primaries here arent for another month I still have some time to make my final decision.

I will likely vote for whichever one can best Kerry, it will likely be Clark in my neck of the woods.

[Armstead]

60. Not a bad idea but egos would probably get in the way

I think either a Clark/Dean or a Dean Clark ticket would be great. But my sense is that neither of them would cede the field until they perceive there is no chance. And even then, I can't see Dean settling for a number 2 slot with Clark.

I'd love to see all the candidates form a Dream Team, with each in an administrative position that reflects their own strengths. But that isn;t going to happen either.

[mzmolly]

61. NOPE!!!

I am not convinced it's over for Dean. He is ahead in delegate counts and I will continue to support him staying in the race until he wins or determines otherwise.

[IndianaGreen]

64. ABK all the way!

Whichever alphabet soup combination works to prevent the DLC from crowning their candidate in Boston, I will support it.

[chaska]

66. Let's think about this.

I don't think just any business as usual candidate is going to give us a win this year. In my arguments with the Deanies I was always waiting for one of them to make the case that Howard could win by bringing in so many new people that he would simply overwhelm all opposition. I'm sure someone made that case at some point but I never saw it. Be that as it may, that arguement has proven to be legless. Dean is done, I'm afraid. I hate it in a way because the Clark campaign was working because of Dean.

So as I said, I don't think business as usual will win it for us. This means Kerry will lose to Bush. There are only two viable candidates in the race who aren't business as usual: Dean and Clark. As I pointed out already, Dean is done (I'm sure the case has been laid out already elsewhere). It's Clark or Kerry. I hate to say it but it may be too late for the General. But it looks like he will win two states Tuesday so maybe the press will grant him a new lease on life then. But Dean's obituary will be written if he doesn't win a state Tuesday. If that happens it's time to choose, Clark or Kerry. If you continue to support Dean after Tuesday, you ensure a Kerry nomination.

As for you Edwards supporters, what are you people thinking? I'm from SC. I know this guy. I won't say he can't win, and I won't say he's an idiot, and I won't tell you that he wrote the Patriot Act ... not here anyway.

[MrSlayer]

68. I'm with you on this.

We just need the good doctor to throw all his support to Clark publicly.

The General and The Doctor sounds good to me.

[arewethereyet]

69. only one problem

Clark is as DOA as Dean

[John_H]

70. I'd go for that.

[CabalBuster]

71. But Clark's numbers are worse that Dean's and he's not that charming....

Clark only has his being a General, commander of Nato, etc. If you strip him of his titles, the man is not very appealing and lacks Dean's charisma. With the numbers and the money he's got he's hardly better than Dean and I don't see how he could attract any supporters by being on top of the ticket. He won third place in N.H. for God's sake, only slightly better than Edwards. Clark cannot seriously challenge Kerry or Bush.

[Nashyra]

73. O h I beg to differ

Mr Clark is very charming and does have charisma, I've met him in person. One on one he makes Kerry look like the walkinf dead.